Lizardchems(Sanguiose, Frogenite and Ferveatium) are not that bad.

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Re: Lizardchems(Sanguiose, Frogenite and Ferveatium) are not that bad.

Postby carshalash » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:10 am #507457

The lizardchems aren't good, the issue isn't that they heal for 1 every tick compared to trekchems 2. Nobody is complaining that they don't heal as fast as trekchems do, the issue is that there are so many downsides to lizardchems that there is no reason to make them let alone use them. People actively hunt down medibots now and smash them each round because nobody wants to be deafened or blinded from them, I honestly can't remember the last time I've seen a mediborg at all since these changes as well. If you wanted trekchems to be less potent and widely used, why wasn't the recipe just made harder to get or the healing rate changed?



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Re: Lizardchems(Sanguiose, Frogenite and Ferveatium) are not that bad.

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:24 pm #507543

oranges wrote:because death and crit are supposed to be punishing states.

maybe ify ou and others didn't shit the bed about every fucking balance change we could feasibly look at nerfing antag damage.

but right now whoever I ask to do it is going to have titanium armoured skin because this community will put them through a full wringer of toxicity.

the following is crag opinion

punishing state means people dont want to be in it

best way to avoid being in it means beating the fuck out of people first

means more suspicion

means less people willing to communicate in fear of being typekilled

means less roleplay
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Re: Lizardchems(Sanguiose, Frogenite and Ferveatium) are not that bad.

Postby Shadowflame909 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:22 pm #507657

wesoda25 wrote:it doesnt help that many unfinished prs are pushed through tho... dont forget its the players who have to play that version of the game. Its not fun when you're stuck with a worse chem system and need to wait for the rest of the prs to roll in and stuff.


Too bad it's always "when you code it" to fix the half-baked idea instead of "why do you merge it"

Looking at stasis over there. Laughing menacingly for making the maintainers finish its code.

Why do this to themselves and the playerbase.
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Re: Lizardchems(Sanguiose, Frogenite and Ferveatium) are not that bad.

Postby Cornarias » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:29 pm #507694

oranges wrote:because death and crit are supposed to be punishing states.

maybe ify ou and others didn't shit the bed about every fucking balance change we could feasibly look at nerfing antag damage.

but right now whoever I ask to do it is going to have titanium armoured skin because this community will put them through a full wringer of toxicity.


I know a fair few people in favour of taking antags down a few notches, and I'm far from opposed.

I think the changes to medbay are in the right direction but done in the wrong manner. A greater focus on chemistry and surgery, two very uninteresting mechanics at their core, is not ideal until they're made more engaging. You have an interesting plan for chemistry at the least, so that's a very strong step in the right direction far as I believe (and either way, this is better than gooncode was 5+ years ago so I really can't complain).

I mention the above because it ties in to how overwhelmingly strong antags are on TGstation. If you're going to have strong antags, you need to have a strong counterbalance. Originally, the symptom of this was sleepers. Life was cheap and death was sudden. Conversely, it was hilariously difficult to die if anyone brought you to medbay. Medical could easily keep up with the murder, assuming it wasn't a hole yet.

With the removal of sleepers and massive (and I do mean massive) spike in time it takes to heal someone, medbay often struggles to keep even a trickle of people in reasonable shape.

However, antags have not been restricted whatsoever, and are comparatively buffed every time it's harder to bring someone back or keep them alive.

The result is actually much shorter roundtimes, because killing is as easy as ever, but living is only possible because we still have cloning.

your buff to security seems at the least a strong idea, but the issue is placing even more power in the hands of one of the most abused jobs on the station. Security will need to be a more strictly monitored job rules-wise, or allowing a form of escalation to allow IC checks and balances.

On the other hand, antags could be restricted slightly. Again, more intensive work on the side of what are essentially volunteer workers. Simple light rules such as "no murderboning unless you have a hijack objective". Of course, people are opposed to this because they enjoy it as an antag, and moderating it is less black and white than many other instances (what exactly constitutes murderboning varies between people). This also wouldn't fully fix the issue, as medbay will still inevitably be bombed.

The last option is simply nerfing antags. Lowering numbers, changing equipment, and forcing (most) to be more stealthy. Lower the direct combat efficacy for the majority of antags (such as lings, traitors, and cult) and promote and overall more subtle game focus for them. This would be more engaging for everyone involved, as there'd be less need to powergame all the self defence objects round start if you know that there's less chance of Mike Murderbone running through your door with a stetchkin. And because murderboning overall would be a little harder, less people would die en made and there would be more engaging in a round of betrayal and distrust, as opposed to TDM. The downside here is the monumental task of rebalancing every antag, the sheer vitriol you'll receive from many players, and the fact that it still doesn't stop, say, Lexia Black breaking down your door on a secway wielding a stun baton and a fire axe. Again.

If you want round times to go longer, death has to be more difficult. The easier it is to die, the quicker the ghost pop rises, the shorter the round time unless today's mass murderer (or that tot who's still looking for the tides cap's gun) keeps recalling.

This is not about meds being a second layer of armour. This is about playing as a standard crew member feeling more and more like an NPC to the antags. You either power (bordering on meta) game all the gear you can to keep yourself alive for the inevitable attack or you die as a guy with soap to someone running noslips and a desword. And conversely to what some might think, most people aren't here for powergame noRP deathmatch (at least on Sybil and even terry. Most I talk to IC and OOC engage in a reasonable bit of RP), we have hippie and bee for that. A lot of people come for an actual LRP experience, and an overall pretty nice community. People can and do RP. Not hours of chatting like Bay, not right station delegations like a few older MRP server, but they play a character me enjoy it. The more time spent talking and doing even the slightest RP, the less time and likelihood of getting the gamer gear, the more of an NPC you are to this shift's corpse special, and the longer you spend staring with the increasing number of ghosts.

Death should be impactful. Death should be meaningful. Medbay should be engaging. Meds should not be armour. But before we can fix that, we need to actually handle the causes of these problems. Because just fixing the symptoms isn't going to make the disease go away.

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Re: Lizardchems(Sanguiose, Frogenite and Ferveatium) are not that bad.

Postby Cobby » Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:18 pm #508001

Antags should not be the basis of core gamemode changes. Antags should be reactive to the core game because they are, by design, supplements to the core game to drive some form of story.
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Re: Lizardchems(Sanguiose, Frogenite and Ferveatium) are not that bad.

Postby Arathian » Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:53 pm #508004

First of all, because >it went there:

Restricting the "main" antags in ANY way is a massive mistake, should not happen and last time it happened it was massively unpopular with fucking everyone for a very good reason. There are plenty of servers that restrict antags and people who would like that can go there. tg should always allow murderbone, even when it sucks (looking at you epic gamer guy who delammed the SM and murderboned people on a 10 pop terry last night. Very epic gamer to kill a bunch of people doing pet projects during deadpop).

Now @cobby:

The game has antags. That's the reality. The game shouldn't be BALANCED around antags but it should recognize they exist and they have a certain power level. Security isn't there to just stop the occasional greytide. Security is there to stop the guy with no slips, armour and desword.

Ignoring the existence of antags and balancing as in a vacuum is not the correct answer either.

It is my belief that effort should result in power spikes. Botanists that don't just grow weed but actually try to produce useful stuff should have access to powerful weapons and tools. Scientists that play slime rancher or bother with nanites should become strong. Doctors and chemists that get "personal protection" syringes should be able to crit 1 or 2 guys who attack them with their syringe gun.

Conversely, death being relatively easy and common should mean that combating death should also be seen as common. The game is not extended and death happens a lot. The question should be focused on how to make combating death and harm fun, not how to restrict combating death and harm.

Lizardchems are fucking terrible because they are fucking unfun. They are just straight up useless and when you accidentally get injected by them, you gotta hide a min or 2 deaf in a locker taking you out of the round.

Medical should be fun for doctors and utilitarian for the patients. Medical should not be "slow" or "hard" and death/injury shouldn't be nigh-irreversible states.

Focus on improving surgery and focus on improving chemistry and how applying chemicals work. Don't focus on nerfing it. Sleeper nerf was a good one, these chems are terrible. Fuck em and fuck the guy who made them for being actively a cunt.
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Re: Lizardchems(Sanguiose, Frogenite and Ferveatium) are not that bad.

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:07 pm #508017

Isn't /tg/ balanced by antags? At least currently?

Otherwise rounds wouldn't be so short. They'd be boring and long without them. IE extended. But they wouldn't be short.

You could say they shouldn't be. But they are the driving force of the problems the codebase is trying to solve. Aren't they?
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Re: Lizardchems(Sanguiose, Frogenite and Ferveatium) are not that bad.

Postby oranges » Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:27 pm #508023

I don't know why you think any of the things you do
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Re: Lizardchems(Sanguiose, Frogenite and Ferveatium) are not that bad.

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:41 pm #508025

Differing opinions causes war

but without them, you lose the ability to advance.
ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.


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Re: Lizardchems(Sanguiose, Frogenite and Ferveatium) are not that bad.

Postby Cobby » Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:07 am #508035

Arathian wrote:First of all, because >it went there:

Restricting the "main" antags in ANY way is a massive mistake, should not happen and last time it happened it was massively unpopular with fucking everyone for a very good reason. There are plenty of servers that restrict antags and people who would like that can go there. tg should always allow murderbone, even when it sucks (looking at you epic gamer guy who delammed the SM and murderboned people on a 10 pop terry last night. Very epic gamer to kill a bunch of people doing pet projects during deadpop).

Now @cobby:

The game has antags. That's the reality. The game shouldn't be BALANCED around antags but it should recognize they exist and they have a certain power level. Security isn't there to just stop the occasional greytide. Security is there to stop the guy with no slips, armour and desword.

Ignoring the existence of antags and balancing as in a vacuum is not the correct answer either.


I didn't say ignore them, I said don't base your core changes off them. Antags should change based off the core game, not the other way around. I'm fully aware antags exist and in fact have fostered an opportunity of more sabotage potential now that one requires more attention/trust from the doctor.

No one is suggesting no murderbone rules, not even sure how that's relevant here.

Lizardchems are fucking terrible because they are fucking unfun. They are just straight up useless and when you accidentally get injected by them, you gotta hide a min or 2 deaf in a locker taking you out of the round.


They're placeholders for the C2s. Reworked C2s will all have a downside that is health-based and meant to be more long-term, not a temporary debuff.

C2s are not meant to be good chems on their own. That is by design. That said, some of the chems are still relatively harmless since organ damage automatically heals if it's not busted.
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Re: Lizardchems(Sanguiose, Frogenite and Ferveatium) are not that bad.

Postby Cornarias » Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:18 am #508037

Cobby wrote:Antags should not be the basis of core gamemode changes. Antags should be reactive to the core game because they are, by design, supplements to the core game to drive some form of story.


I agree, hence why I was looking at ways to change antags around the new system, not set my heels down and whine. If the core gameplay changes, antags also need to be changed. Personally I feel antags should be more promoted to use their ingenuity and tools at hand, and muchbof their arsenal should be utility or niche. However a lot of things are timeless staples, so toying with them without obscene backlash will be hard at the least.

As it stands, however, antags are less and less driving a story and more and more an absurdly strong force that can damage a station beyond repair with even a decent amount of game knowledge and experience. There's not much story to be told when someone trawls maint and kills half the station with noslips and a desword yet again. There's a great one to be told when a sneaky traitor bit by bit hypno flashes the entire crew to think they're actually living potatoes who are complete pacifists.

The issue lies in Death becoming a more severe consequence + being easier to die, while the raw and direct power of many antags goes unchanged.

As you said, the antags need to follow the core game, but in its current state it feels the opposite. Though I know that's not the aim.

A quick edit: it should be clarified that I don't innately think antags should be restricted. But it's important to discuss all the options available when an issue arises, and that's one of them.

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Re: Lizardchems(Sanguiose, Frogenite and Ferveatium) are not that bad.

Postby angelstarri » Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:30 am #508041

as long as bruise packs and ointment are still a thing all of these changes are useless

i've never in any server have had to actively escape from a medibot to not get injected
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Re: Lizardchems(Sanguiose, Frogenite and Ferveatium) are not that bad.

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:30 am #508055

Cornarias wrote:
Cobby wrote:Antags should not be the basis of core gamemode changes. Antags should be reactive to the core game because they are, by design, supplements to the core game to drive some form of story.


I agree, hence why I was looking at ways to change antags around the new system, not set my heels down and whine. If the core gameplay changes, antags also need to be changed. Personally I feel antags should be more promoted to use their ingenuity and tools at hand, and muchbof their arsenal should be utility or niche. However a lot of things are timeless staples, so toying with them without obscene backlash will be hard at the least.

As it stands, however, antags are less and less driving a story and more and more an absurdly strong force that can damage a station beyond repair with even a decent amount of game knowledge and experience. There's not much story to be told when someone trawls maint and kills half the station with noslips and a desword yet again. There's a great one to be told when a sneaky traitor bit by bit hypno flashes the entire crew to think they're actually living potatoes who are complete pacifists.

The issue lies in Death becoming a more severe consequence + being easier to die, while the raw and direct power of many antags goes unchanged.

As you said, the antags need to follow the core game, but in its current state it feels the opposite. Though I know that's not the aim.

A quick edit: it should be clarified that I don't innately think antags should be restricted. But it's important to discuss all the options available when an issue arises, and that's one of them.



A good fix in my opinion would be literally removing everything in the "Loud and Dangerous" part of the uplink unless you have Hijack/Die a Glorious Death/Highlander
ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.


BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909


Cobby wrote:The trash bin... have you lost your way home anon?

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Re: Lizardchems(Sanguiose, Frogenite and Ferveatium) are not that bad.

Postby Cobby » Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:30 pm #508112

angelstarri wrote:as long as bruise packs and ointment are still a thing all of these changes are useless

i've never in any server have had to actively escape from a medibot to not get injected


Yes medibots are derpy atm because they use the placeholder chem.

They're also getting changed to be fluffed as doing tend wounds as opposed to using a chemical (meaning they won't have a drawback to being used).
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Re: Lizardchems(Sanguiose, Frogenite and Ferveatium) are not that bad.

Postby Farquaar » Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:14 pm #508147

I enjoy the new chems, at least from the MD's perspective. Treating a patient has become more involved, especially after they taken in heavy damage.

There are still a few kinks in the system. Medikits, chemistry and cloning have one foot in the new system and one foot in the old, and should be brought up to date with the new medicines in mind.

An additional problem is the lack of doctor players. Now that doctors are arguably more necessary than before, we're in a weird transition stage where when the station is in chaos, there simply isn't enough medical staff to treat the influx of injured/dying patients. It remains to be seen whether enough players will find the new system engaging enough to meet this demand.

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Re: Lizardchems(Sanguiose, Frogenite and Ferveatium) are not that bad.

Postby confused rock » Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:23 am #508508

The new toxin healty thing is so overly complex I lost all motivation to doc
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Re: Lizardchems(Sanguiose, Frogenite and Ferveatium) are not that bad.

Postby oranges » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:19 pm #508642

simple minds
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Re: Lizardchems(Sanguiose, Frogenite and Ferveatium) are not that bad.

Postby deedubya » Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:46 pm #508669

What I don't understand is why a clearly unfinished system was ever pushed through to begin with? I'm sure if you had actually finished the entire rework you had planned that players would be bitching significantly less and there'd be actual merits to it. Or, you could have testmerged the unfinished system on a shithole like event hall until work was done on it so you could gather data on the implemented elements beforehand. Merging an unfinished system onto the main server did absolutely nothing to ingratiate the playerbase to this system or the codebus at large. Just seems like another case of "coders don't actually play" more specifically "why would they care if we have to deal with unfinished crap"
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Re: Lizardchems(Sanguiose, Frogenite and Ferveatium) are not that bad.

Postby Cobby » Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:51 am #508758

What are we talking about again?

MY rework isn't even testmerged yet (well right now it's conflicted which I need to fixies). If we're talking about injectibabies, THOSE ARE A PLACEHOLDER. THOSE ARE A PLACEHOLDER. THOSE ARE A PLACEHOLDER.

Even the current conglomerate system isn't bad, I have no issue healing people. There is this guy on bagil though who I assume he enjoys doing it so much he literally refuses to do cloning, so much that he's willing to manually take longer just to defib. That or he's both a sadist and masochist simultaneously.

> Just seems like another case of "coders don't actually play" more specifically "why would they care if we have to deal with unfinished crap"

You caught me, ever since I started working on medbay I sometimes get off doctor to play virologist. Don't tell anyone please oh my god please.

In b4 "oh I bet you play on lowpop so you don't see how this REALLY affects doctors".
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Re: Lizardchems(Sanguiose, Frogenite and Ferveatium) are not that bad.

Postby deedubya » Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:09 am #508761

Cobby wrote:What are we talking about again?

MY rework isn't even testmerged yet (well right now it's conflicted which I need to fixies). If we're talking about injectibabies, THOSE ARE A PLACEHOLDER. THOSE ARE A PLACEHOLDER. THOSE ARE A PLACEHOLDER.

That's the point, though. Why was the old system removed and replaced with a placeholder instead of waiting to replace it until it was all ready to go? Like I said above, I'm sure a testmerge on a shitter server would have been more appropriate if you wanted to collect data and >opinions.

Honestly, I haven't played much medical after the rework, so I won't speak to how much more fun and engaging it might be for doctors - specifically medbay mains. I have however made a habit of smashing any medibot that gets near me, in fear of the deafening silence that will soon follow. It's simply not fun to deal with as a player. "but just don't get injured, dumbass!" Try telling the world to stop revolving. You'd have more luck getting it to cooperate than to never get injured.

You caught me, ever since I started working on medbay I sometimes get off doctor to play virologist. Don't tell anyone please oh my god please.

You're actually an exception, and I respect you for it. I still think it was rubbish to remove a working system and merge a placeholder, but I am looking forward to what you come up with in the future, because I know for a fact you have a personal investment in the well being of the medical department.
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Re: Lizardchems(Sanguiose, Frogenite and Ferveatium) are not that bad.

Postby oranges » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:55 pm #508958

This server has not survived 11 years by waiting for things to be perfect.

The sooner people become comfortable with some level of jank the better they will enjoy their time, but your whole post just screams overreaction, the new medical system was fine during the change and after and acting like it completely ruined the game for you is pathetic and does not make anyone amenable to your comments.

If you can't control your emotional response and provide feedback that is clear and and free of emotional appeals I will put you on post approval, and don't bother with the wall of text posts either.
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Re: Lizardchems(Sanguiose, Frogenite and Ferveatium) are not that bad.

Postby confused rock » Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:04 pm #509516

This doesnt feel like a step towards perfect though
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Re: Lizardchems(Sanguiose, Frogenite and Ferveatium) are not that bad.

Postby oranges » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:57 pm #509553

that depends on what your view of perfect is
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Re: Lizardchems(Sanguiose, Frogenite and Ferveatium) are not that bad.

Postby wesoda25 » Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:28 pm #509557

oranges wrote:that depends on what your view of perfect is

whats your view?

Ideally I want a med system with minimized cloning/cryo reliance that focuses on reconstruction surgery/stasis and defibb stuff. I've been loving all the organ stuff, plus how I can now have a chance of working on someone to get them to the point of defibb so that I might bypass cloning (lock cloning behind techwebs btw). I know you guys dislike how people can pop chems and get passive healing, so I think we should have taken a direction which places importance on doctor application. I understand that tossing in some side effects encourages this, but I don't think it was done in the best way possible. I honestly don't know a better solution atm, and I know you'll probably dismiss my opinion because of that, but quite honestly some of the new chems are literally pointless. Their healing is so abysmal, and side effects so niche, literally no one is ever going to bother, ever using them. I don't see why we couldn't have just made the base level chems have bad healing rates, no side effects, unable to bring someone out of crit, and detect if chems that heal similar damage are inside (and therefore stop working). It'd address the issue of stacking healing types (one of your issues with trekchems I believe?), and put them in the slot of shitty passive heal that traitors will stock up on before a murderbone but can't rely on too hard.
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