Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
First and foremost, I posted this since the pr discussion was limited to maintainers.
As to what my feedback is, I really dont like it. This was a fun part of the game that is just gone with no replacement whatsoever. I mentioned in my comment on the pr that when the cloning one got merged I wasnt that anxious because of the addition of stasis beds and other changes to medical.
I just cant see the point of this stupid removal, really. Was it to save a bit of performance? If so I dont think it was worth it.
As to what my feedback is, I really dont like it. This was a fun part of the game that is just gone with no replacement whatsoever. I mentioned in my comment on the pr that when the cloning one got merged I wasnt that anxious because of the addition of stasis beds and other changes to medical.
I just cant see the point of this stupid removal, really. Was it to save a bit of performance? If so I dont think it was worth it.
Spoiler:
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
the goal was to work on making the station have growing power needs throughout the round so engineering has to continually upgrade and maintain the engine, making power more than "it's on" or "it's off"
when engines and power is balanced to do this we can readd the other engines at the same balance level we make the supermatter!
when engines and power is balanced to do this we can readd the other engines at the same balance level we make the supermatter!
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
If anyone had made any meaningful changes to those engines to improve them in the almost year since oranges first talked about removing them, they might have a case against that PR.
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
singularities and teslas were fucking awful anyways
built just so people could "accidentally" end the round
nothing of value was lost today
built just so people could "accidentally" end the round
nothing of value was lost today
The weak should fear the strong
thehogshotgun wrote:How does having jannies like you, who have more brain tumor than brain benefit the server
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
Singularity has been kept in as the delamination event (so what it pretty much always showed up as anyways) and Tesla is being fixed as we speak and readded as it's delamination event (so what it pretty much always showed up as anyways)
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
And this. Interesting how 12 months pass and nobody fixes tesla killing the game every time it gets loose, but right when the removal pr is made we have multiple coders fixing atmos and tesla code to get it back in.spookydonut wrote:If anyone had made any meaningful changes to those engines to improve them in the almost year since oranges first talked about removing them, they might have a case against that PR.
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
Personally I didn't even know Oranges had talked about it, much less why, cause I don't follow everything said in development. Reading about the plans, personally I think they're shit but I'm not sure this is the topic for it. It basically boils down the engine to "build more turbines" which is boring as hell and completely binary (either a turbine is built or it isn't). What does it add to the game to remove engineering's ability to actually do anything besides being turbine construction specialists so everybody else can have power?Armhulen wrote:And this. Interesting how 12 months pass and nobody fixes tesla killing the game every time it gets loose, but right when the removal pr is made we have multiple coders fixing atmos and tesla code to get it back in.spookydonut wrote:If anyone had made any meaningful changes to those engines to improve them in the almost year since oranges first talked about removing them, they might have a case against that PR.
Look at goon for example. Wild engine setups to get way more power than you'll ever need is a point of pride, even though it's not even remotely needed. That's the sort of stuff we should be getting. Instead we're making it all incredibly mundane because "muh balance".
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
the only reason you think the SM is mundane is because you've spent so much time around it dude
the TEG,SM and Tesla engines (as opposed to the delams etc) had basically no mechanics at all. There's no real challenge to building them and or maintaining them, the only reason people think they're interesting is they are at the stage of playing here where they have just discovered alternate engines and are trying to build them all/see how compact they can make them, other than that, there's little to no challenge, and as soon as that's done, they offer no future benefit and or potential interest.
I'm not arguing the SM is far better by any stretch of the imagination, but it has a richer palette of interactions with the world, and can be twiddled with in a significantly more involved fashion, it's in a much better starting position than all of them to be something is more than a binary on switch the engineers have to flick at the start of every single round.
So the rest were moved out of the way so I can ensure the limited dev talent we have focus on the important engine first, without being distracted by the fact someone can solve every power problem on the station by setting up one or two singularities in the cargo bay and leaving them there.
If, later on, we have an SM that is good and needs feeding over the round and has upgrade paths, then someone is more than free to come in and add some new engine type, and give it the same amount of love, craft and care that we will give the SM.
the TEG,SM and Tesla engines (as opposed to the delams etc) had basically no mechanics at all. There's no real challenge to building them and or maintaining them, the only reason people think they're interesting is they are at the stage of playing here where they have just discovered alternate engines and are trying to build them all/see how compact they can make them, other than that, there's little to no challenge, and as soon as that's done, they offer no future benefit and or potential interest.
I'm not arguing the SM is far better by any stretch of the imagination, but it has a richer palette of interactions with the world, and can be twiddled with in a significantly more involved fashion, it's in a much better starting position than all of them to be something is more than a binary on switch the engineers have to flick at the start of every single round.
So the rest were moved out of the way so I can ensure the limited dev talent we have focus on the important engine first, without being distracted by the fact someone can solve every power problem on the station by setting up one or two singularities in the cargo bay and leaving them there.
If, later on, we have an SM that is good and needs feeding over the round and has upgrade paths, then someone is more than free to come in and add some new engine type, and give it the same amount of love, craft and care that we will give the SM.
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
if it’s retardedly high power generation you were worried about, why not slash power production of those engines by 10 or add a cap to how much power they can produce
also, does “rich palette of interactions” mean “vent everything and dump n2 into sm until it starts working”, because that’s how SM works in-game and that’s exactly how it’s going to work if you make it operate with turbines instead
dumping a pre-determined gas mix into SM every round is in no way more interesting than setting up singularity that’s set up the same every round
also, does “rich palette of interactions” mean “vent everything and dump n2 into sm until it starts working”, because that’s how SM works in-game and that’s exactly how it’s going to work if you make it operate with turbines instead
dumping a pre-determined gas mix into SM every round is in no way more interesting than setting up singularity that’s set up the same every round
Last edited by Flatulent on Sat Aug 15, 2020 8:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
The SM isn't mundane, making it use "lul more turbines" as the way to get more power is mundane as all fuck. That's literally the most mundane possible way you could do power generation from the SM. But, I still don't think that power needs to be a "balanced" problem. Frankly, the entire rest of the station needs power and nobody else has access to do it and not having power completely ruins most jobs. It's not a luxury, it's a requirement and "having enough power" should not be a stretch goal. Give engineering something else to do with the SM as a stretch goal, maybe some exotic gasses that are actually useful.oranges wrote:the only reason you think the SM is mundane is because you've spent so much time around it dude
the TEG,SM and Tesla engines (as opposed to the delams etc) had basically no mechanics at all. There's no real challenge to building them and or maintaining them, the only reason people think they're interesting is they are at the stage of playing here where they have just discovered alternate engines and are trying to build them all/see how compact they can make them, other than that, there's little to no challenge, and as soon as that's done, they offer no future benefit and or potential interest.
I'm not arguing the SM is far better by any stretch of the imagination, but it has a richer palette of interactions with the world, and can be twiddled with in a significantly more involved fashion, it's in a much better starting position than all of them to be something is more than a binary on switch the engineers have to flick at the start of every single round.
So the rest were moved out of the way so I can ensure the limited dev talent we have focus on the important engine first, without being distracted by the fact someone can solve every power problem on the station by setting up one or two singularities in the cargo bay and leaving them there.
If, later on, we have an SM that is good and needs feeding over the round and has upgrade paths, then someone is more than free to come in and add some new engine type, and give it the same amount of love, craft and care that we will give the SM.
Last edited by VexingRaven on Sat Aug 15, 2020 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
sm is mundane as shit what are you talking about
Mothblocks, winter 2020, “successfully” preventing bagil death with relevant data wrote:You seem to be under the fallacy that reinforcing that Bagil is a TDM shithole where you must carry bolas and spears on you at all times, while looking for the next valid to hunt down is a positive change to the server. I don't. The data suggests other people don't.
imsxz wrote:I give up there’s too many furries
cacogen wrote:i asked oranges how often he plays and he deleted the post
cybersaber101 wrote:Welp, you guys let a terrymin become a headmin, thousand years of darkness.
Vekter wrote:I jerk off Nist a bit too much but he's honestly one of the best silicon players on the server. B.O.R.G.O. is also pretty good.
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
The SM as it is right now is mundane but has already built in atmos and meltdown code that singulo and tesla don't do. thus, it's much better to start from when making a round progressing upgradable engine
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
Not sure how I feel about this. Singularity engines haven't really been used much due to the SM just straight up being better in every way. I'm going to miss the tesla bounty in cargo, that was fun.
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
literally the only learning curve of the tesla and singulo are "you need to make it smaller"
i dont think its a good learning curve
i dont think its a good learning curve
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
It's all so tiresome. oranges doesn't even play the game so his opinions on it are ill-informed and irrelevant. I think he just likes the attention.
technokek wrote:Cannot prove this so just belive me if when say this
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
You sound burned out cacogen
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
Redditors reeeeeeeeeeeeee
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
this sucks
Usually plays as Aya Shameimaru, Remilia Scarlet or Rumia Kuroda depending.
Spoiler:
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
this is so retarded i hate orange for this shit
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
Rest in peace glorious cargo teslas
Karl Karlsson and never anything else
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
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sayonara, trash engines
sayonara, trash engines
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
Ok after reading more in depth the reasoning behind the removal of the other 2 I'm kinda on board with it. More with the thought of having later on new, more streamlined engines that can perhaps be the older ones reborn.
Just please deliver in respect to the "love" and effort you say the coder team is working towards regarding the SM. Make polls Oranges, try seeing what players would enjoy doing in there, try getting out a little out of your bubble to tweak the engine in a fashion that is in touch with as many engi playstyles as possible.
Make this PR worth, please.
Just please deliver in respect to the "love" and effort you say the coder team is working towards regarding the SM. Make polls Oranges, try seeing what players would enjoy doing in there, try getting out a little out of your bubble to tweak the engine in a fashion that is in touch with as many engi playstyles as possible.
Make this PR worth, please.
Last edited by Agux909 on Sat Aug 15, 2020 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
Pretty much this.NoxVS wrote:singularities and teslas were fucking awful anyways
built just so people could "accidentally" end the round
nothing of value was lost today
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
The only thing I dislike is the removal of the TEG, but it was absolutely broken (though I'd say the issue is freezers and heaters being magical temperature boxes, rather than the TEG itself) and I don't have the time, energy, or skill required to fix it myself, so I can't really complain.
That said, I'd rather the SM require more powerful and dangerous gas mixes than simply building more turbines, if that's what the SM is evolving into. It currently already has that (that was the big selling point of the SM compared to the other engines, I thought), it's just that the extra power you get from CO2 is pointless because of how our power system currently works.
That said, I'd rather the SM require more powerful and dangerous gas mixes than simply building more turbines, if that's what the SM is evolving into. It currently already has that (that was the big selling point of the SM compared to the other engines, I thought), it's just that the extra power you get from CO2 is pointless because of how our power system currently works.
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
My big issue is just the fact that we removed these engines in favor of easier balancing, but why not just remove them after the balancing is done, or in the same pr?
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
This.Gogodapogostick wrote:My big issue is just the fact that we removed these engines in favor of easier balancing, but why not just remove them after the balancing is done, or in the same pr?
You are right, the tesla and singu were simple to set up and made the job of engineers futile.
About the teg, well, Ive never used or seen it tbh
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
Gogodapogostick wrote:My big issue is just the fact that we removed these engines in favor of easier balancing, but why not just remove them after the balancing is done, or in the same pr?
oranges wrote:So the rest were moved out of the way so I can ensure the limited dev talent we have focus on the important engine first, without being distracted by the fact someone can solve every power problem on the station by setting up one or two singularities in the cargo bay and leaving them there.
If, later on, we have an SM that is good and needs feeding over the round and has upgrade paths, then someone is more than free to come in and add some new engine type, and give it the same amount of love, craft and care that we will give the SM.
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
well we could have just waited for yogstation to make a new engine to port firstoranges wrote: If, later on, we have an SM that is good and needs feeding over the round and has upgrade paths, then someone is more than free to come in and add some new engine type, and give it the same amount of love, craft and care that we will give the SM.
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
It's the RnD console thing all over again. "We're (re)moving this on the first step on a path to rework"Gogodapogostick wrote:My big issue is just the fact that we removed these engines in favor of easier balancing, but why not just remove them after the balancing is done, or in the same pr?
There is no step 2
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
Waiting for someone to fix it is the same as waiting for someone to fix it, and I've been watching us wait for someone to fix it ever since I joinedTlaltecuhtli wrote:well we could have just waited for yogstation to make a new engine to port firstoranges wrote: If, later on, we have an SM that is good and needs feeding over the round and has upgrade paths, then someone is more than free to come in and add some new engine type, and give it the same amount of love, craft and care that we will give the SM.
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
There was no step 2 on research because the feedback was so toxic all the people wanting to do it stopped, now experisci is stalled.Ziiro wrote:It's the RnD console thing all over again. "We're (re)moving this on the first step on a path to rework"Gogodapogostick wrote:My big issue is just the fact that we removed these engines in favor of easier balancing, but why not just remove them after the balancing is done, or in the same pr?
There is no step 2
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
What do you expect to be different here then
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
My only complaint is that I'll miss the tesla bounty in cargo. Those were fun times.
I play Holden Westmacott. Sec/PM main most of the time.
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
maybe you could do some self examinationZiiro wrote:What do you expect to be different here then
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
Maybe you should stop being surprised that people get mad when you remove something on vague promises for the future?oranges wrote:maybe you could do some self examinationZiiro wrote:What do you expect to be different here then
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
THE ENGINE RATION HAS BEEN INCREASED TO ONE ENGINEoranges wrote:maybe you could do some self examinationZiiro wrote:What do you expect to be different here then
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
Can't say I really care. Singulo and tesla were build rarely enough to not really be a problem.
On the other hand they were completely boring compared to the supermatter because the first sign of sabotage they gave was getting zapped or sucked into the singularity.
On the other hand they were completely boring compared to the supermatter because the first sign of sabotage they gave was getting zapped or sucked into the singularity.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
nah the first sign would be the chunky input lagCPTANT wrote:Can't say I really care. Singulo and tesla were build rarely enough to not really be a problem.
On the other hand they were completely boring compared to the supermatter because the first sign of sabotage they gave was getting zapped or sucked into the singularity.
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
it'd be neat if the TEG or something similar could be brought back in a toned-down fashion so it couldn't produce stupid power or break thermodynamics, just as a second stage to bolt onto an existing engineJimmius wrote:The only thing I dislike is the removal of the TEG, but it was absolutely broken (though I'd say the issue is freezers and heaters being magical temperature boxes, rather than the TEG itself) and I don't have the time, energy, or skill required to fix it myself, so I can't really complain.
That said, I'd rather the SM require more powerful and dangerous gas mixes than simply building more turbines, if that's what the SM is evolving into. It currently already has that (that was the big selling point of the SM compared to the other engines, I thought), it's just that the extra power you get from CO2 is pointless because of how our power system currently works.
like you'd have the turbine as a primary stage and a heat exchanger as a secondary generator to make power out of the waste/exhaust heat or something
you know, like how actual power stations work
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
True.oranges wrote:nah the first sign would be the chunky input lagCPTANT wrote:Can't say I really care. Singulo and tesla were build rarely enough to not really be a problem.
On the other hand they were completely boring compared to the supermatter because the first sign of sabotage they gave was getting zapped or sucked into the singularity.
I personally think no feature is worth slowing the game to a crawl for.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
I don't play enough anymore. Still more than you.oranges wrote:You sound burned out cacogen
technokek wrote:Cannot prove this so just belive me if when say this
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
Local orange lacks self awareness. Take your own advice fruit.oranges wrote:maybe you could do some self examinationZiiro wrote:What do you expect to be different here then
It's infinitely amusing to hear you complain about toxicity then ignore the replies about why that toxicity happens.
The fruit aside, why exactly does power need to be balanced to begin with? It's not a stretch goal. It's not an optional function. It's a requirement for the station to function.
SM only brings a base level of complexity over any other engine when engies try to autism up a new gas mix or new setup. Otherwise it's literally just dumping N2 and possibly N20 into it and forgetting about it until it delams.
Shocked doors are capped on damage no matter how much power you dump into the network and there's no power transfer laser like on goon so there's no incentive to even max power in the first place other than to keep people from screaming about it. I'd hope that things like these are included in this vague ass promise of future content but we all know it isn't.
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
Power needs to be balanced because people want to add features that use excess power as a balancing act.
Balancing power also means your work on gaining power has more value and can consequently be used as bargaining power for other departments
Balancing power also means your work on gaining power has more value and can consequently be used as bargaining power for other departments
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
Well that sounds nice, but ya know what would be nicer? Actually having any of those features ready before removing things.Cobby wrote:Power needs to be balanced because people want to add features that use excess power as a balancing act.
Balancing power also means your work on gaining power has more value and can consequently be used as bargaining power for other departments
Instead we just have things removed and the game left in a worse state with nothing to show for it other than the promise that something will be added in the future. Same shit happened with RnD and medical. Why do y'all keep doing this when the same thing happens every single time?
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
Lmao, the game ain't in a worse state. Ima tell you that it's better off without these engines, and if the SM gets tweaked and refitted to make power generation an ongoing process, then we're right on track.
Personally, I would have left em in as relics for charlie and the russki station, but then again, a demanding engine would make these more interesting as well.
Personally, I would have left em in as relics for charlie and the russki station, but then again, a demanding engine would make these more interesting as well.
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
Why is it better off? They barely got built to begin with. I haven't seen a singularity in a very long time (unfortunately), and the tesla would get built in cargo or on the BYOS sometimes. If it were up to me a random engine would spawn in engineering each round.
One day oranges will leave, like the other tyrants before him. It's weird to think even paprika made better contributions to the game.
I found the release of the singularity and to a lesser extent the tesla quite riveting myself. The supermatter spams comms and then explodes, which is a problem localised to engineering (but causes a shuttle call anyway).CPTANT wrote:Can't say I really care. Singulo and tesla were build rarely enough to not really be a problem.
On the other hand they were completely boring compared to the supermatter because the first sign of sabotage they gave was getting zapped or sucked into the singularity.
One day oranges will leave, like the other tyrants before him. It's weird to think even paprika made better contributions to the game.
technokek wrote:Cannot prove this so just belive me if when say this
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
Oranges is the best head coder we've had yet.
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Re: Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines
Wait you didnt even testmerge it
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