give us back our paychecks

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Re: give us back our paychecks

Postby legality » Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:32 pm #581894

Arcanemusic wrote:snip

i mean maybe i'll change my mind later and issue a giant takedown but i don't feel like responding to this wall of text

but i just wanted to let you know you're wrong about a lot of it

maybe i will dm you later and tell you how i think you're wrong in a format that takes less out of me

edit: snipped me being snippy

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Re: give us back our paychecks

Postby NecromancerAnne » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:45 am #581938

So I've had some time to process my impressions of the current state of economy. Bear with me, there is a lot to be said, most of it isn't good, but I'm sticking with being critical about this.

Cargo being a hard requirement to participate in the money making process, it falls apart if they don't exist and adversarial at worst
What I mean by this is that since cargo, as a department, must both exist and be willing to play ball to even allow you to be able to make money. This can be despite going out of your way to do the bounty you've been given to produce a bounty cube, because you yourself cannot sell that cube. There are several ways in which you can get burnt in the process without doing a single thing wrong and without you even knowing why or how. Most of it is incompetence, a smaller level is malice, and a large amount is confusion about how the system works.

Stuff gets lost in the mess that is cargo, and the fact that cargo is a hard requirement in this process only serves to make this more confusing and more difficult than necessary compared to just directly paying out to the person who cashed in the bounty.

Which means unless you have cargo access, you also probably need to tide into cargo, which utterly shuts down the entire economy process dead in it's tracks, since you've incenitivzed breaking and entering to even participate in the process that now everyone is mandatorily subject too, whether they want to be or not. And not one person ever wants to be forced into that position unless they're already banking on getting killed for it, or looking to fight people to the death anyway, so about 90% of our player base bows out here, and this is a feature set to die before it's begun.

There isn't enough player obtainable information as to what the fuck is going on with the bounty system, the payment system and cargo income and export
There is zero feedback for when money comes in, when bounty cubes are shipped out, what your cut of the money is or what cargoes cut was.

It requires tools that anyone who isn't in cargo cannot utilize to work out what a specific bounty cube is worth, since export scanners aren't printable and they require shuttle console linkage to use in the first place. You also have no identification methods for bounty cubes to determine who the cube who pay out too and what the completed bounty was that generated the cube.

Additionally, with no records kept for any of this, you can't even reliably identify at what point the system failed. Right now, there is a bug with being able to redirect where bounty cube money goes when you barcode an object the cube is contained within. You can't identify where that money went accidentally, so from a player standpoint you can't possible work out that there was a bug happening and how this exploit is occurring. Obviously, this is an exploit, but it is one made worse but the complete lack of player feedback and information that can be obtained.

Hell, even just a console or cargo app that tells you what has been sold and where the money went would be fantastic just for needless recordkeeping purposes in a round.

Since job specific equipment is no longer free, many jobs now have round life expectancies unless they're already coasting by on infinite materials and supplies, or are unevenly punished for acquiring their job supplies.
The jobs most deeply affected by this process include several service jobs like janitor, botanist and partially chef and bartender, but also consequently clowns, mimes and chaplains simply because their pay are some of the lowest and they have no goods production to rely upon. These jobs make frequent purchases out of vendors as part of their role, and they all should be able to acquire money as a direct result. But since money production is hardlocked behind bounties and also cargo finishing the transaction, they often cannot without cargo being involved. These are the jobs that should see the highest amount of money turnover and production, since they're also tied into goods production. But instead, they get chumped the hardest and paid the least for their investments.

Every purchase in a vendor for job equipment should as a result see some return on the investment if the person who purchased that item used it correctly and intelligently, if they're expected to participate in the system that requires them to produce goods. But that's the problem

For the most part, some roles don't require as many vending purchases as other roles to perform their own role, since many of their job critical items aren't in vendors. Security, cargo, medical (to a point) and most science roles do not make any or many vendor purchases unless it's a single fairly decent purchase for convenience. Mining has a completely SEPARATE system for vendors as well, making their productivity completely independent from the economy to begin with. Otherwise, they operate normally with their beginning equipment and supplies.

Even here, there are inequalities. If I got to buy a piece of medical equipment, like a hypo, from a medical vendor as a doctor, I'm obviously going to use this in select situations in an emergency, but it's an investment in that it's going to ensure someone is alive. But I'll need to keep making those purchases unless I take the time to fashion my own goods and own supplies, which sometimes is impossible given there are several other doctors competing for the same equipment, and I need to also be doing my job at the same time. The obvious expense here is time, but my time is never going to be spent on bounties, so I'll never participate in that system to begin with, and so I'll just simply find any method to get around being involved in the feature at all. Essentially, I'm not interacting with it unless I literally rob my patients to pay for their medical treatment.

Meanwhile, when I purchase handcuffs out of the security vendor, those cuffs are going to see repeat use constantly over the course of the entire round. There is no upper limit on that investment unless they get destroyed (entirely possible, lings can do that), they get lost (sometimes you just lose cuffs), or I hand them off to someone else (usually in prisoner transfer). But it's a considerably more sound investment as a result. However, I'm still being charged to arrest someone without any pay in return. The only way to get money out of this is if I rob prisoners.

Did you look at the ANCAP mode and think 'Okay but what if this was actually how our economy worked' and didn't get the joke?

At the same time, as a botanist, my purchase of a seed pack has potentially a lot of value if approached properly, to the point I can multiply that investment hundred fold and never have to go back to the vendor again for that product, because I make seeds off the plants I grow and I make nutrients from that. It produced it's own value several fold, so long as nothing goes wrong, but given we have a 35 purchase overhead, we likely aren't going to see any negative impact from that purchase or loss from a failure unless we just allow all our plants to die one after the other. I've made a single purchase to then never be subject to the system again for that purchase, unlike the other two roles, who may need to make further purchases. I still never see any credit value out of this without cargo, but I am still in the best position to produce bounties since my goods have infinite returns. The only limit is time.

With the system pricing every vendor item to the intended user for that vendor at what would be 35 purchases from their starting payout, some roles pay significantly more for their goods while getting much less investment on them than others, and it also softlocks some roles from being able to move into those roles because of their starting payouts. They can't even then go to make up the difference with bounties, because the system falls flat on it's fucking face without that initial investment or just being impossible to produce credits from.

And if we really wanna talk about roles that completely sidestep this problem in either an elegant or unelegant fashion, miners can directly turn their mining points into credits, one for one, so they can basically ignore this entire process completely and STILL have a foot in the race.

The bounty system as it stands needs a complete rework for it to ever be functional.
Most if not all the bounties in the current list were copy-pasted from the previous system. But these were bounties that were either already a tall order for a single department to go out of it's way to acquire, or were static and non-renewable goods that came at some steep cost individually for shipping them out.

Very few of the bounties are produced goods. But not every role is even expected to produce goods in the first place. So it made sense that cargo was given a huge list to which they could approach at their leisure. Some bounties just seemed unreasonable, but since they paid the most, made them lucrative for pursuing them. It worked for them, since often they also got very basic bounties to do in the meantime and to help divvy duties among techs.

Let's use botany as our example again. Most of their bounties have you produce various plants and ship them out. That makes perfect sense, you're doing this as part of your job, it's a sink for all your produce. As is most of the service bounties. Make plant, plant goes into good vacuum, money come out. It's a basic as fuck system but it works until you get to the bounty cube bit. It's a way to move all these goods being produced into something you can do with them other than make nutrients for the biogen.

However, then we get to security, who are asked to; produce handcuffs (that's cargo's job since they have the autolathe), produce license plates (they don't make these, prisoners do, so that's ANOTHER assumed member of the station doing their job for them or some security officer having to make license plates to finish a bounty which is just absurd and not what they do as part of their job), or literally ship the unique and limited riot shotguns for 5k to which they'll see only 500 credits. This bounty might as well not exist, and even if the system was changed to produce and manufactured goods, the only one that security can produce reliably is stuff locked behind technodes that often don't get touched unless science has points to kill, like weapons and basic security items.

Some roles have even less productiveness than security, like the clown, who is a goddamn performer and by their very nature will not be producing any tangible goods whatsoever. Why the FUCK is the clown at the mercy of this system? Nobody is going to pay him for his job, he's just a hobo in a clown suit begging for scraps.

One bounty at a time, with the chance of rerolling the same bounty again, can cause you to get softlocked out of the system for some time.
If I slap in the ID, and my bounty tells me that I need to acquire some product that I'll never see in the entire round because there is literally no way I am able to reliably acquire that item without killing the man who possesses guaranteed or it just isn't something I will ever see because it's so outrageouly a rip-off to be insulting that the system asks me to sell it at my own expense for the rest of the round, I'm rerolling that bounty. If I get that bounty AGAIN, then that just prolongs the problem even longer. Especially if it keeps turning up as the round goes on.

I'm not making money for that entire time or even aware of what I should be doing in the meantime to get ready for some other bounty. The fact you don't even have a list or options for what bounty to work towards at a given time means you can be left with nothing to do that entire time.

The beauty of the previous system was that you could do the bounties in a given round that were reasonable to acquire first, and then get to the ones that take some time to do later when they become relevant.

This is especially true for roboticists, which I'll now talk about.

Roboticists are almost always going to be producing the bounties that matter, and no other role need apply.
Roboticist is my main role, and they are grossly overvalued for the bounties they get for the products they make. Sure, they can roll a bounty that takes very late tech to produce, like a durand, but they almost always can produce those goods eventually and they almost always pay immensely large sums of money for effort. They will almost always benefit from the reroll system as well. I can load those mechs with the shittiest parts imaginable and get obscenely large sums of money per cube as a result. they're at least always above 10K, making the 1K some assistant produced to get back 100 credits look like a fucking dumbass for the effort he put in for that bounty. The only limit is minerals, which elegantly roboticists can resolve as well thanks to public mining and a mining mech, which mines minerals faster than someone on foot, and safer too.

This system needs to get completely axed and replaced with a focus on manufacturing and production. Even if that means finally merging the two departments that have been tangentially attached to one another for this entire time. Service and cargo into one department, producing and manufacturing goods for cargo to sell, should be how the station's money is made.

Additionally, this department, with enough tools for production to allow it a wide variety of potential choices for how they go about it, should be from which everyone is paid. The way our roles are set up makes it absurd to expect everyone to be a part of this process, and so a paycheck system makes sense. If the problem is where the money is coming from, it makes even more sense that the department meant to produce goods to rack in money is where that money comes from. Even at the expense of cargo being able to buy a fuckton of guns, at least then the money production is going to something, right?

PostThis post was deleted by oranges on Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:00 pm.

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Re: give us back our paychecks

Postby RaveRadbury » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:00 am #581942

I've tried out the system and it's fine. It could use improvement, but the coding metagame is constantly tweaking and polishing, so this is to be expected of almost any feature.

Money hardly mattered before this, to be honest it still kind of doesn't matter now. If a non-human service worker can afford all of their gear, some accessories, a snack or two, a hot drink, and packs of cigarettes, what's the problem?

Could the people who feel like they can't afford their playstyle please describe what job they are doing and what purchases they can/can't make?
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PostThis post was deleted by oranges on Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:00 pm.

PostThis post was deleted by oranges on Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:00 pm.

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Re: give us back our paychecks

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:49 am #581953

i have examined twice the bounty console and it didnt show your current bounty, is this FAKE NEWS arcadedefence??

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Re: give us back our paychecks

Postby carshalash » Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:51 am #581960

My biggest issue is how often fucking with the bounty cubes with wrapping paper happens to fuck over the people actually doing the bounties.

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Re: give us back our paychecks

Postby NecromancerAnne » Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:00 am #581976

The ability to steal bounty cubes with package wrapping and tagging it is a bug. When I asked Arcane he said it was meant to always pay back 10%. But it would appear as though the cubes are being overwritten by barcodes, and likely it's just checking for the first barcode of the contents of package wrapping and paying out of the combined credit cost to whoever tagged the box.

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Re: give us back our paychecks

Postby cacogen » Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:46 am #581977

I have never wrapped someone else's bounty cube. I don't know about other people playing cargo but credits are not that desirable
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PostThis post was deleted by oranges on Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:59 pm.

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Re: give us back our paychecks

Postby Cobby » Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:37 am #581993

It had a considerable amount of thought put into it, I mean the guy is literally trying to extract excels out for people's viewing pleasure to illustrate the design and problems with the old system (bold calling it a system when it was never really curated byond hey this sounds cool).

If you want to have a conversation with him where you push back ideas of what an ideal economy system would look like im sure he would be all ears, but just coming here and going "this is shit/bad/horrible/etc." is counter-productive assuming your intent is to actually improve the game through constructive feedback.
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Re: give us back our paychecks

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:29 am #582001

as cargo:
-only downgrade from old bounty system is that you cant "stack " bounties like planting the plants in public garden and do pie/muffin/hotdog and pass by bar for the drink ones all in 1 go, u have to do 1 at time and while looking around for dead people ids for better ones if you rolled something too hard, or rely on metafriends to do viro ones or stand there and recycle 3 whole monkeys by bounty pad which is RNG.
-if before i would do 6-7 bounties in the first 10 min of game where nothing important happens now i can only do 2-3 and maybe end do tider ones to get cash fast because its ops/blob/cult and there is no time for other kind of bountys.
-the highest amount of bounty i ever done was when i stole aa from a clumsy hop and was giving aa for bounty and i did like 20+ while instructing people how does the machine works. i think there is still a problem of people not knowing how shit works (just like any system), but i had to spend the $$$ in guns to pay off bribes to sec so it wasnt that profitable
-if i see people doing bounties outside of cargo its just ppl "donating" like for example the officer assigned to cargo is commonly doing bountys when nothing happens

as not cargo:
-i feel like the 10% pay from the cubes conflicts with private buy, if i need a bunch of constable costumes from cargo or guns or gloves i will just go in and order em and if anyone complains i throw cubes at them and tell em they are making a profit, like there is nothing good to private buy that doesnt require a minimum of 1000$ (stun baton crates)
-cash that cant reach the minimum for cargo crates is useless. tiders spawn with enough cash to buy nuka cola AND grey bull, most job specific shit in vendors is useless as game becomes literally techno-communism (ebolas, rcds, pinpointers) i think vendors should have more unique items than the ones printed 4 free

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Re: give us back our paychecks

Postby Flatulent » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:21 am #582006

cargo should be able to manually select fee they want to pay for bounties
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PostThis post was deleted by oranges on Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:59 pm.

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Re: give us back our paychecks

Postby remanseptim » Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:05 pm #582013

demanding any cooperation from departments that isn't strictly 100% automated, such as ORM going to R&D, is a fool's errand

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Re: give us back our paychecks

Postby oranges » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:01 pm #582036

That's your view, it's not one I share, and the issue is orthogonal to the issue at hand.

You might disagree that "departmental cooperation is ever possible", but I have decided it is and it's valid, if you want to dispute that then in the face of the overwhelming evidence I am not listening then make a separate thread.

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Re: give us back our paychecks

Postby Critawakets » Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:26 am #582044

Honestly the whole "the crew should do an entirely seperate job for their paycheck" thing should be axed and the entire station budget be based around cargo exports. That way cargo still affects literally everyone's economy, but now it does not break the flow of gameplay and there is more of a job for cargo. In essence, pretty much just the old system but paychecks are dynamically allocated from a budget linked to the cargo budget that gets some of the money collected by cargo.

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