Shotgun buff
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Shotgun buff
I play alot of security, and i almost never use the shotgun. all of the ammo types are near useless; beanbags/rubbershot are terrible, makeshift ammo is basically worthless; It only does decent damage if you are literally standing directly infront of your target, and at that point, you may as well just baton them; lazer/energyguns are more consistently effective in almost any situation, the only reason you would use a shotgun is if your opponent has a desword, and even then i think i would rather just take my chances trying to baton them.
Shotguns need a buff of some sort to make them actually useful. My idea: make buckshot an orderable ammunition from cargo. This encourages interplay within departments and gives shotguns an actual use. If you have any other interesting ideas on how to make shotguns worthwhile i would like to hear them in this thread. thank you for coming to my ted talk
edit: nah they're actually pretty good
Shotguns need a buff of some sort to make them actually useful. My idea: make buckshot an orderable ammunition from cargo. This encourages interplay within departments and gives shotguns an actual use. If you have any other interesting ideas on how to make shotguns worthwhile i would like to hear them in this thread. thank you for coming to my ted talk
edit: nah they're actually pretty good
Last edited by toemas on Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
- oranges
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Re: Shotgun buff
they were nerfed on purpose.
- Armhulen
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Re: Shotgun buff
If any buffs should happen, it shouldn't be about ammo printing but rather giving it a unique use case. If what you say about batons is true its current use case is getting way too close to simplemobs to deal damage when you could be lasering them.
- bastardblaster
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Re: Shotgun buff
Shotguns have literally no use case right now. They were nerfed to be "specialist weaponry" but they're not specialized for anything. If it needs it's own niche, I'd say let shotguns fully penetrate block chance from deswords or e-shields
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Re: Shotgun buff
they only have like 1 use and thats shotgun darts. which is stupid. a shotgun should not be a glorified syringe gun. it should be a shotgun. dumb.
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Re: Shotgun buff
While I think the days of validhunters toting sawn-off riot shotguns full of slugs and two-tapping every antagonist they come across were not a great thing, I do think that shotguns have swiftly fallen to the opposite side of the spectrum, where you come across the absurd situation wherein while in a confrontation with a heavily-armored operative wielding an assault rifle, you'd rather be equipped with an antique .38 revolver than a pump-action shotgun. I think that making buckshot (and only buckshot) order able from cargo would be a good compromise for a few reasons:
- Now, there's actually a choice to be made if you want a ballistic firearm: cheaper autorifles or save up for the combat shotguns? Because right now, I can't even remember the last time I saw combat shotguns ordered because they're basically bulky and loud disablers that you can't stick in your suit storage.
- The problem with shotguns was never the shotguns themselves, really - it was slugs, because slugs are ungodly monsters that put you into soft-crit in two shots, and hard-crit in three, while buckshot is slightly less reliable and actually forces shotguns into the close-range niche they're supposed to occupy.
- Even right now, there's only one niche where ballistics are even better than lasers in any capacity, and that's against operatives. Even here, it's because operatives are functionally immune to lasers most of the time, so even worthless rubbershot has a marginally-better chance of actually doing something. If we make shotguns actually lethal-capable in any fashion (outside of makeshift buckshot that usually takes five(!!!) shots to put an unarmored target into critical), it'll reduce the utter dominance of energy weapons that we currently suffer from.
- Now, there's actually a choice to be made if you want a ballistic firearm: cheaper autorifles or save up for the combat shotguns? Because right now, I can't even remember the last time I saw combat shotguns ordered because they're basically bulky and loud disablers that you can't stick in your suit storage.
- The problem with shotguns was never the shotguns themselves, really - it was slugs, because slugs are ungodly monsters that put you into soft-crit in two shots, and hard-crit in three, while buckshot is slightly less reliable and actually forces shotguns into the close-range niche they're supposed to occupy.
- Even right now, there's only one niche where ballistics are even better than lasers in any capacity, and that's against operatives. Even here, it's because operatives are functionally immune to lasers most of the time, so even worthless rubbershot has a marginally-better chance of actually doing something. If we make shotguns actually lethal-capable in any fashion (outside of makeshift buckshot that usually takes five(!!!) shots to put an unarmored target into critical), it'll reduce the utter dominance of energy weapons that we currently suffer from.
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- oranges
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Re: Shotgun buff
if only there was some kind of public record of changes made and the discussions surrounding them.thomanthewise5404 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:02 pmbut why? how does the shotgun being a useless weapon benefit the game?
- Armhulen
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Re: Shotgun buff
if the bullets fully went through people but had a very very short range, then you could talk about a special use case
- saprasam
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Re: Shotgun buff
real shit this would be cool & give them a "super crowd control" niche
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Re: Shotgun buff
oranges wrote: ↑Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:24 amif only there was some kind of public record of changes made and the discussions surrounding them.thomanthewise5404 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:02 pmbut why? how does the shotgun being a useless weapon benefit the game?
i checked the github and it seems the reasoning for the shotgun nerf was literally: "NT is lasers , syndicate is ballistics"
amazing
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Re: Shotgun buff
we should not have a bunch of weapons in the armory that serve no actual purpose and dont do anything useful. if you dont want to buff them then they should be removed entirely
- oranges
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Re: Shotgun buff
that's cool bro, but im not going to do that
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Re: Shotgun buff
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Re: Shotgun buff
i remember the reason for shotguns being nerfed isn't because of lore but because of the fact that every single round security would only use slugs/buckshot with shotguns due to them being able to take out almost every antag in a single magazine, and then being able to speedload more shells into them(?)thomanthewise5404 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:21 pm i checked the github and it seems the reasoning for the shotgun nerf was literally: "NT is lasers , syndicate is ballistics"
amazing
nerf was for the better
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Re: Shotgun buff
i downloaded this onto my computer
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- cocothegogo
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Re: Shotgun buff
could we get a shotgun shell that shoots bolas?
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Re: Shotgun buff
saprasam wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 1:11 ami remember the reason for shotguns being nerfed isn't because of lore but because of the fact that every single round security would only use slugs/buckshot with shotguns due to them being able to take out almost every antag in a single magazine, and then being able to speedload more shells into them(?)thomanthewise5404 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:21 pm i checked the github and it seems the reasoning for the shotgun nerf was literally: "NT is lasers , syndicate is ballistics"
amazing
nerf was for the better
yeah having them in the armory shiftstart might have been overkill, but still, why cant they be orderable from cargo? autorifles are just as powerful, probably more because of the range advantage, and you can buy those.
- sinfulbliss
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Re: Shotgun buff
Strongly agree. I played when shotguns had slugs and buckshot, then when they only had buckshot, and now when buckshot too was finally removed.
Shotguns are essentially worthless at this point and are fully replaced by autorifles, which do:
1) 20 brute per hit
2) Carry 20 shots per magazine.
3) Fire rapidly and can be reloaded easily with magazines in your box.
Shotguns, even with buckshot, would be worse than autorifles because:
1) Shots spread, making them do <20brute at any distance over a few tiles.
2) Carry 7 shots.
3) Fire much slower, and ammo is very bulky (it takes a whole box to store 7 shells, whereas you can fit 20x7=140 autorifle bullets in the same space).
If buckshot were brought back, shotguns would still be objectively worse than autorifles, but they'd at least be an option and have a use. As they stand they're utterly worthless. Even the shotgun darts, which require research to get, are next to worthless since they aren't piercing. Right now shotguns are useless for sec as a lethal option, and outclassed by your shiftstart disabler as a nonlethal option.
Shotguns are essentially worthless at this point and are fully replaced by autorifles, which do:
1) 20 brute per hit
2) Carry 20 shots per magazine.
3) Fire rapidly and can be reloaded easily with magazines in your box.
Shotguns, even with buckshot, would be worse than autorifles because:
1) Shots spread, making them do <20brute at any distance over a few tiles.
2) Carry 7 shots.
3) Fire much slower, and ammo is very bulky (it takes a whole box to store 7 shells, whereas you can fit 20x7=140 autorifle bullets in the same space).
If buckshot were brought back, shotguns would still be objectively worse than autorifles, but they'd at least be an option and have a use. As they stand they're utterly worthless. Even the shotgun darts, which require research to get, are next to worthless since they aren't piercing. Right now shotguns are useless for sec as a lethal option, and outclassed by your shiftstart disabler as a nonlethal option.
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- Super Aggro Crag
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Re: Shotgun buff
replace shotguns with blunderbusses if i'm going to be useless at least let me pretend to be a pirate
- JusticeGoat
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Re: Shotgun buff
why don't we remove shotguns then?
- kieth4
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Re: Shotgun buff
Shotguns are really op if you spend 30 minutes setting up a chem factory. You can make chem darts that 1 shot and explode people.
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Re: Shotgun buff
"If you spend a literal half an hour of your round using equipment only one job has access to roundstart to make ammunition for a gun said job has no access to without extended B&E, then it's good!"
I mean, if you can somehow manufacture a significant amount of shotgun darts AND get a shotgun to actually use them in without a single soul noticing you and reporting your ass to Security, then congratulations, you're a better player than I'll ever be.
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Re: Shotgun buff
A lot of "powerful" strategies are like this. Some people don't realize even if the key part of the process is relatively straightforward (in this case, chemistry), a lot of things out of your control have to go your way if said part of the process is to be the rate-limiting step.Valorium wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:44 pm"If you spend a literal half an hour of your round using equipment only one job has access to roundstart to make ammunition for a gun said job has no access to without extended B&E, then it's good!"
I mean, if you can somehow manufacture a significant amount of shotgun darts AND get a shotgun to actually use them in without a single soul noticing you and reporting your ass to Security, then congratulations, you're a better player than I'll ever be.
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Re: Shotgun buff
if you set up a chem factory for a really strong combo theres nothing wrong with that!
- Agux909
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Re: Shotgun buff
What about them applying a knockback that ramps up on intensity with the amount of pellets you get hit by?
Making them a different type of CC weapon would be more interesting than fully or partially reverting the nerfs that were made. It would also make them cover a niche other weapons don't.
Making them a different type of CC weapon would be more interesting than fully or partially reverting the nerfs that were made. It would also make them cover a niche other weapons don't.
- datorangebottle
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Re: Shotgun buff
could be interesting, especially if that knockback interacts with the environment(knocking you into vending machines / tables).
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:16 pm I highly doubt any other admin on the team would have given you this chance, except maybe Kieth because his brain worms are almost as bad as mine.
Vekter wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 4:45 pm At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 pm I'm sorry, can we get a real player to resolve this appeal? I don't like this trial player. They can't even set their own name.
sinfulbliss wrote: ↑I almost prefer Rave's AI-generated "We cannot accept this appeal at this time. If you would like assistance appealing in the future, please dial 1-800-1984-1488."
Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:25 pm I think we can all agree that someone throwing a reverse revolver at Zyb as a secret test of character, and Zyb immediately fucking himself with it, is the best thing we all could have received for Christmas this year
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Re: Shotgun buff
like the cqc kick?(Knocks you into vending machines and it crushes you doing extra damage)datorangebottle wrote: ↑Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:47 am knockback interacts with the environment(knocking you into vending machines / tables).
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Re: Shotgun buff
kinda, yeah. giving them environmental bonus damage encourages tactics and positioning.Jonathan Gupta wrote: ↑Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:49 amlike the cqc kick?(Knocks you into vending machines and it crushes you doing extra damage)datorangebottle wrote: ↑Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:47 am knockback interacts with the environment(knocking you into vending machines / tables).
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:16 pm I highly doubt any other admin on the team would have given you this chance, except maybe Kieth because his brain worms are almost as bad as mine.
Vekter wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 4:45 pm At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 pm I'm sorry, can we get a real player to resolve this appeal? I don't like this trial player. They can't even set their own name.
sinfulbliss wrote: ↑I almost prefer Rave's AI-generated "We cannot accept this appeal at this time. If you would like assistance appealing in the future, please dial 1-800-1984-1488."
Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:25 pm I think we can all agree that someone throwing a reverse revolver at Zyb as a secret test of character, and Zyb immediately fucking himself with it, is the best thing we all could have received for Christmas this year
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Re: Shotgun buff
dude playing cook is great cause I love cooking, and the strategies involving the kitchen, skill ceiling for the cook is high not only is it the environment its the CQC and cooking.datorangebottle wrote: ↑Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:06 amkinda, yeah. giving them environmental bonus damage encourages tactics and positioning.Jonathan Gupta wrote: ↑Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:49 amlike the cqc kick?(Knocks you into vending machines and it crushes you doing extra damage)datorangebottle wrote: ↑Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:47 am knockback interacts with the environment(knocking you into vending machines / tables).
That being said environmental bonus damage would be great for shotgun and would encourage using it in tight spaces and environments like the kitchen or small sections like robotics or science(ALSO THE BAR!)
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Re: Shotgun buff
This made me lol a bit because this used to be the usecase of shotguns before gun nuts inserted the variety of ammo types and ballistic guns to the point that we couldn’t use that as a mechanism anymoreardentarclight wrote: ↑Sun Nov 07, 2021 4:14 pm Shotguns have literally no use case right now. They were nerfed to be "specialist weaponry" but they're not specialized for anything. If it needs it's own niche, I'd say let shotguns fully penetrate block chance from deswords or e-shields
Bring back forced energy weapons, flesh out lasers, convert/remove most ballistics, balance them as a way to counter things that hard counter energy projectiles
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Re: Shotgun buff
Just to clarify this last point, do you mean specifically balancing the converted shotguns or balance lasers against the things that once hard countered energy projectiles? (or both even)Cobby wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:24 amThis made me lol a bit because this used to be the usecase of shotguns before gun nuts inserted the variety of ammo types and ballistic guns to the point that we couldn’t use that as a mechanism anymoreardentarclight wrote: ↑Sun Nov 07, 2021 4:14 pm Shotguns have literally no use case right now. They were nerfed to be "specialist weaponry" but they're not specialized for anything. If it needs it's own niche, I'd say let shotguns fully penetrate block chance from deswords or e-shields
Bring back forced energy weapons, flesh out lasers, convert/remove most ballistics, balance them as a way to counter things that hard counter energy projectiles
And by 'energy', do you mean disablers, making them distinct from lasers?
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Re: Shotgun buff
Ballistics counter anti energy devices like eswords by the nature of being a ballistic in an energy dominated society
Energy being disablers and lasers
Energy being disablers and lasers
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Re: Shotgun buff
Personally, I find that right now there are straight up too many problems that be solved by energy weapons. Like, almost every antagonist can be completely obliterated by lasers, disablers, or a mix of the two with very few exceptions. If we buff shotguns and increase the number of antagonists with tools to combat energy weapons, then we get more gameplay variety and make it so we don't have a severe case of Hammer-Nail Syndrome.
The only major antagonists immune to energy weapons are operatives (usually), rarely traitors, and certain types of blob. Considering we have over a dozen antagonist types by my rough estimate, that's...not a lot.
The only major antagonists immune to energy weapons are operatives (usually), rarely traitors, and certain types of blob. Considering we have over a dozen antagonist types by my rough estimate, that's...not a lot.
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Re: Shotgun buff
Okay, so this is actually addressing the converted weapon specifically. An energy weapon not subject to the same counters as other energy weapons. Mkay.
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