A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
- Itseasytosee2me
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A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
I want to preface this with the fact that I am well aware that the systems in place are meant to create fun and balanced gameplay and have been shifted dramatically and forcefully by the removal of cloning and I can't really blame them for that. That being said, the way you bring someone back from the dead medically is fucking dumb from a medical point of view.
So the most common way specimens back are through a defibrillator or resurrection surgery. As a quick overview, this works if the body damage is not so damaged that it would immediately die, that the body has a working heart, has enough blood, isn't husked, and has a functioning brain. In-game this switches your state to alive or whatever if all of those conditions are met. In +lore+ supposedly you are restarting a person's heart to get it pumping blood again which leads to the brain coming back online and booms your alive. I'll tell you why this is all bullshit.
I'm gonna skip the obvious part about brain death for a moment and talk about defibrillators. It is a common misconception that defibrillators have to power to restart a heart, this is blatantly untrue. Defibrillators are not actually used to restart a stopped heart, but rather to correct an irregular heartbeat such as those that cause cardiac arrest. It is not the purpose of defibrillators to restart a heart, nor do they have the capacity to do so. Media often exaugurates the abilities of the defibrillator which leads to this misconception being common. Because "clinical death" does not require the heart to stop, only cease functioning (in the same way we can call a Furby "not functioning" when its battery implodes and lets out an ear-piercing screech at 2 am) people may be able to be recovered from clinical death provided the heart is still "alive" and "beating" if irregularly. Once your heart goes out for real you aren't coming back unless you are hooked up to some artificial heart and have a transplant on the way, which is obviously pretty irrelevant outside of surgery.
I would say that in most of the deaths in ss13 your heart would stop almost instantly, some of the things that might get you to "clinical death" without restarting your heart would be 02 loss, blood loss, and some poisons. A defib is never going to save you from getting your skull bashed in with a toolbox no matter how hard you repair the broken bone. Even provided you go out by one of these deaths that might keep your heart active afterward, it is pretty impossible for that heart to sustain even an uneasy beat for a significant amount of time without an oxygen supply. So that's the main point on why you couldn't restart a heart.
On to the easier topic, it's a widely accepted medical fact that once a brain stops functioning, it can never function again. Brain death is unrecoverable. The longest time recorded a living brain continued to emit brainwaves without circulation was 30 minutes, I would not personally call that "death" and rather a comatose state but you could define that as clinical death. The average time that a brain can last without circulation is 5 to 10 minutes.
Playing devils advocate and giving ss13 the benefit of the doubt by saying that it only classifies death in the clinical sense and that every spaceman's brain is adapted to last as long as possible without circulation, as well as saying every time someone "dies" both their heart and brain remain alive (even if they were shot in the head by a .357 revolver or all the blood fell out of their body), makes in so you could ARGUE that a spaceman could be resurrected up to 30 minutes following their death. And that not even accounting for bullshit like heart transplants in dead patients.
What's the point of all this? What the hell am I arguing? I don't know. It's not like I am making a case for cloning. The big problem is just that defibrillators don't work like that, but mechanically its fine. So maybe you could put some witty flavor text on it about how bullshit it is or something. I don't know.
So the most common way specimens back are through a defibrillator or resurrection surgery. As a quick overview, this works if the body damage is not so damaged that it would immediately die, that the body has a working heart, has enough blood, isn't husked, and has a functioning brain. In-game this switches your state to alive or whatever if all of those conditions are met. In +lore+ supposedly you are restarting a person's heart to get it pumping blood again which leads to the brain coming back online and booms your alive. I'll tell you why this is all bullshit.
I'm gonna skip the obvious part about brain death for a moment and talk about defibrillators. It is a common misconception that defibrillators have to power to restart a heart, this is blatantly untrue. Defibrillators are not actually used to restart a stopped heart, but rather to correct an irregular heartbeat such as those that cause cardiac arrest. It is not the purpose of defibrillators to restart a heart, nor do they have the capacity to do so. Media often exaugurates the abilities of the defibrillator which leads to this misconception being common. Because "clinical death" does not require the heart to stop, only cease functioning (in the same way we can call a Furby "not functioning" when its battery implodes and lets out an ear-piercing screech at 2 am) people may be able to be recovered from clinical death provided the heart is still "alive" and "beating" if irregularly. Once your heart goes out for real you aren't coming back unless you are hooked up to some artificial heart and have a transplant on the way, which is obviously pretty irrelevant outside of surgery.
I would say that in most of the deaths in ss13 your heart would stop almost instantly, some of the things that might get you to "clinical death" without restarting your heart would be 02 loss, blood loss, and some poisons. A defib is never going to save you from getting your skull bashed in with a toolbox no matter how hard you repair the broken bone. Even provided you go out by one of these deaths that might keep your heart active afterward, it is pretty impossible for that heart to sustain even an uneasy beat for a significant amount of time without an oxygen supply. So that's the main point on why you couldn't restart a heart.
On to the easier topic, it's a widely accepted medical fact that once a brain stops functioning, it can never function again. Brain death is unrecoverable. The longest time recorded a living brain continued to emit brainwaves without circulation was 30 minutes, I would not personally call that "death" and rather a comatose state but you could define that as clinical death. The average time that a brain can last without circulation is 5 to 10 minutes.
Playing devils advocate and giving ss13 the benefit of the doubt by saying that it only classifies death in the clinical sense and that every spaceman's brain is adapted to last as long as possible without circulation, as well as saying every time someone "dies" both their heart and brain remain alive (even if they were shot in the head by a .357 revolver or all the blood fell out of their body), makes in so you could ARGUE that a spaceman could be resurrected up to 30 minutes following their death. And that not even accounting for bullshit like heart transplants in dead patients.
What's the point of all this? What the hell am I arguing? I don't know. It's not like I am making a case for cloning. The big problem is just that defibrillators don't work like that, but mechanically its fine. So maybe you could put some witty flavor text on it about how bullshit it is or something. I don't know.
- Sincerely itseasytosee
See you later
See you later
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
rename them defarkulators and they defark the patient, which is different from defibbing!
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
You literally answered your own question in your own first paragraph. Anyone who cares more about realism than game design should not be trusted with github access.
I remade the beach away mission
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
And it's impossible to learn another species language by implanting their tongue in your mouth. Medbay needs a reality check.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
I didn't ask any nonrhetorical questions. I'm pretty well aware. It's a perpetuation of a stereotype.EuSouAFazenda wrote: ↑Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:56 am You literally answered your own question in your own first paragraph. Anyone who cares more about realism than game design should not be trusted with github access.
Last edited by Itseasytosee2me on Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Sincerely itseasytosee
See you later
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
Based on personal experience, you can do this IRL, actuallyHommandoSA wrote: ↑Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:15 am And it's impossible to learn another species language by implanting their tongue in your mouth. Medbay needs a reality check.
No I will not be answering questions
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
The defibrilator uses quantum nanotechnology.Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:07 am I want to preface this with the fact that I am well aware that the systems in place are meant to create fun and balanced gameplay and have been shifted dramatically and forcefully by the removal of cloning and I can't really blame them for that. That being said, the way you bring someone back from the dead medically is fucking dumb from a medical point of view.
So the most common way specimens back are through a defibrillator or resurrection surgery. As a quick overview, this works if the body damage is not so damaged that it would immediately die, that the body has a working heart, has enough blood, isn't husked, and has a functioning brain. In-game this switches your state to alive or whatever if all of those conditions are met. In +lore+ supposedly you are restarting a person's heart to get it pumping blood again which leads to the brain coming back online and booms your alive. I'll tell you why this is all bullshit.
I'm gonna skip the obvious part about brain death for a moment and talk about defibrillators. It is a common misconception that defibrillators have to power to restart a heart, this is blatantly untrue. Defibrillators are not actually used to restart a stopped heart, but rather to correct an irregular heartbeat such as those that cause cardiac arrest. It is not the purpose of defibrillators to restart a heart, nor do they have the capacity to do so. Media often exaugurates the abilities of the defibrillator which leads to this misconception being common. Because "clinical death" does not require the heart to stop, only cease functioning (in the same way we can call a Furby "not functioning" when its battery implodes and lets out an ear-piercing screech at 2 am) people may be able to be recovered from clinical death provided the heart is still "alive" and "beating" if irregularly. Once your heart goes out for real you aren't coming back unless you are hooked up to some artificial heart and have a transplant on the way, which is obviously pretty irrelevant outside of surgery.
I would say that in most of the deaths in ss13 your heart would stop almost instantly, some of the things that might get you to "clinical death" without restarting your heart would be 02 loss, blood loss, and some poisons. A defib is never going to save you from getting your skull bashed in with a toolbox no matter how hard you repair the broken bone. Even provided you go out by one of these deaths that might keep your heart active afterward, it is pretty impossible for that heart to sustain even an uneasy beat for a significant amount of time without an oxygen supply. So that's the main point on why you couldn't restart a heart.
On to the easier topic, it's a widely accepted medical fact that once a brain stops functioning, it can never function again. Brain death is unrecoverable. The longest time recorded a living brain continued to emit brainwaves without circulation was 30 minutes, I would not personally call that "death" and rather a comatose state but you could define that as clinical death. The average time that a brain can last without circulation is 5 to 10 minutes.
Playing devils advocate and giving ss13 the benefit of the doubt by saying that it only classifies death in the clinical sense and that every spaceman's brain is adapted to last as long as possible without circulation, as well as saying every time someone "dies" both their heart and brain remain alive (even if they were shot in the head by a .357 revolver or all the blood fell out of their body), makes in so you could ARGUE that a spaceman could be resurrected up to 30 minutes following their death. And that not even accounting for bullshit like heart transplants in dead patients.
What's the point of all this? What the hell am I arguing? I don't know. It's not like I am making a case for cloning. The big problem is just that defibrillators don't work like that, but mechanically its fine. So maybe you could put some witty flavor text on it about how bullshit it is or something. I don't know.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
yeah medbay needs an overhaul
technokek wrote:Cannot prove this so just belive me if when say this
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
Okay
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
I'd make my own feedback thread on why medbay has been in a bad place for a long time now but both the maintainers and the admins are very defensive about it for some reason and I don't think it would be a useful thing to do for myself.
The issues are basically that healing takes too long, the system is unintuitive for new players to learn and the controls and UI are fiddly and the entire process is tedious and repetitive which make it enjoyable. Doctors get sick of their jobs partway through the shift and medbay can't keep up with the numbers of bodies generated in high chaos rounds. Bodies can become unrevivable because their wounds are simply too severe to be treated in any feasible length of time. This leads to a bunch of people having to sit out which is bad for the round and the game in general.
The issues are basically that healing takes too long, the system is unintuitive for new players to learn and the controls and UI are fiddly and the entire process is tedious and repetitive which make it enjoyable. Doctors get sick of their jobs partway through the shift and medbay can't keep up with the numbers of bodies generated in high chaos rounds. Bodies can become unrevivable because their wounds are simply too severe to be treated in any feasible length of time. This leads to a bunch of people having to sit out which is bad for the round and the game in general.
technokek wrote:Cannot prove this so just belive me if when say this
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
chuck em in the cloner
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
what points do you need addressed
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
This wouldn't be so bad if science would reliably get the ONE GODDAMN GRAY SLIME SCAN that's needed to get improved surgeriescacogen wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:47 pm I'd make my own feedback thread on why medbay has been in a bad place for a long time now but both the maintainers and the admins are very defensive about it for some reason and I don't think it would be a useful thing to do for myself.
The issues are basically that healing takes too long, the system is unintuitive for new players to learn and the controls and UI are fiddly and the entire process is tedious and repetitive which make it enjoyable. Doctors get sick of their jobs partway through the shift and medbay can't keep up with the numbers of bodies generated in high chaos rounds. Bodies can become unrevivable because their wounds are simply too severe to be treated in any feasible length of time. This leads to a bunch of people having to sit out which is bad for the round and the game in general.
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
You could also argue that needing a slime scan for medical research is a tedious system that only reliably works with a full and coordinated staff.Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:43 am
This wouldn't be so bad if science would reliably get the ONE GODDAMN GRAY SLIME SCAN that's needed to get improved surgeries
- Sincerely itseasytosee
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
It's kind of a no-win situation because it's supposed to be "Departments are encouraged to work together"
But nobody wants to work with the rest of the station less than the xenobiologists.
Possibly the most exasperating thing in the game is breaking into xenobiology for a gray slime scan as a Medical Doctor only to find the entire room filled with passive gold slime mobs just vibing.
But nobody wants to work with the rest of the station less than the xenobiologists.
Possibly the most exasperating thing in the game is breaking into xenobiology for a gray slime scan as a Medical Doctor only to find the entire room filled with passive gold slime mobs just vibing.
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
Cloning design wise must
1. Require the body
2. Require actively working on the patient
3. Acknowledge the existing methods of resurrection and work in a way that either fairly competes or paves its own (which may require editing the balance of some of the other methods).
If you can draft up a document that navigates through those 3 things and still ends up being cloning be my guest, but otherwise its getting blocked.
I could MAYBE be sold on 1 being malleable if you were going to sell me on the fact that you would not see cloning on most rounds or something where the feature is not expected to be in every round on a practical level.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
don't bother, im never going to permit cloning again.
so keep your document till im dead.
so keep your document till im dead.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
We disagree on pretty fundamental levels so that makes sense.cacogen wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:47 pm I'd make my own feedback thread on why medbay has been in a bad place for a long time now but both the maintainers and the admins are very defensive about it for some reason and I don't think it would be a useful thing to do for myself.
The issues are basically that healing takes too long, the system is unintuitive for new players to learn and the controls and UI are fiddly and the entire process is tedious and repetitive which make it enjoyable. Doctors get sick of their jobs partway through the shift and medbay can't keep up with the numbers of bodies generated in high chaos rounds. Bodies can become unrevivable because their wounds are simply too severe to be treated in any feasible length of time. This leads to a bunch of people having to sit out which is bad for the round and the game in general.
- Taking damage should matter. This means that if someone does a LOT of damage, that impact SHOULD overwhelm the department and it SHOULD be difficult to treat people who have experienced considerably more damage than your scratches and bruises
- I could genuinely care less if something is "repeatable". I simply cannot constantly cater to the 1000 hr player who is trying to milk the game for what it's worth (a free game). That said, I do encourage people to contribute to medical in a way that individuals have to determine based on the situation what route is best. To me that is the ideal state of medical in that while the procedures might be straight forward, it is knowing when it is best to use those options that make it ideal. To do that we have to make multiple ways to approach a scenario and each have their own tradeoffs. Compared to previous medical, we are certainly in the right direction on this point.
- Knowing this, if you still brazenly get into combat with people you cant turn around and complain you find yourself sitting out and having to wait for a revive. If people genuinely believed sitting out was bad, then I dont see why murderboning is still allowed on LRP including when cloning existing. Its certainly punishes you, perhaps through no fault of your own, but we had a lot of hyperlethal items (still do) that can easily take you out of the round with no practical counter and no one seems to bat an eye. In fact, if you are implying you preferred older TG, that was even more hyperlethal and you could instantly be taken out of the round and gibbed fairly easily (remember pen/C4?). At worst, we are again stepping in the right direction.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:16 pm I highly doubt any other admin on the team would have given you this chance, except maybe Kieth because his brain worms are almost as bad as mine.
Vekter wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 4:45 pm At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 pm I'm sorry, can we get a real player to resolve this appeal? I don't like this trial player. They can't even set their own name.
sinfulbliss wrote: ↑I almost prefer Rave's AI-generated "We cannot accept this appeal at this time. If you would like assistance appealing in the future, please dial 1-800-1984-1488."
Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:25 pm I think we can all agree that someone throwing a reverse revolver at Zyb as a secret test of character, and Zyb immediately fucking himself with it, is the best thing we all could have received for Christmas this year
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
That means you do care.
Hope that helps.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
Why did you call it a short rant that's 7 paragraphs
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
This is what a long rant looks like: viewtopic.php?f=33&t=30272
- Sincerely itseasytosee
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
when u die no one will clone you
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
I've posted this idea in a few threads before. I still think it's cool. The main advantage of nu-cloning would be that it doesn't require an MD's absolute attention for the entire procedure (like medical resurrection). The key disadvantages would be that it requires the doc to hang around the cloning machine, and requires some remedies to be prepared in advance or at least very quickly on the fly. For a medbay to employ nu-cloning, having a robust chemist or deep pockets would be advantageous.Cobby wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:09 amCloning design wise must
1. Require the body
2. Require actively working on the patient
3. Acknowledge the existing methods of resurrection and work in a way that either fairly competes or paves its own (which may require editing the balance of some of the other methods).
If you can draft up a document that navigates through those 3 things and still ends up being cloning be my guest, but otherwise its getting blocked.
I could MAYBE be sold on 1 being malleable if you were going to sell me on the fact that you would not see cloning on most rounds or something where the feature is not expected to be in every round on a practical level.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
I certainly hope so
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
If you just say "cloning" without the context of what it was when removed the idea of cloning is very in theme with the universe. Themes can be implemented in any number of good ways
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
It's terra-boomer-naut he just wants the old days back
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
Honestly I would love if we did something like Cortical Stacks and "cloning" actually meant "surgically transplanting the stack into a cloned host body."
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
thats beautiful, why don't we just copy cortical stacks from a person's body and do surgery that takes hours even days.Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:05 am "surgically transplanting the stack into a cloned host body."
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
I learned a long time ago, I am on the wrong side of this cloning issue.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=26719
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=26719
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
I think, specifically, it would be REALLY NICE if you could clone a body to generate specific-person human burgers with the chef make replacement biological limbs, transplant the brain/a cortical stack, and just generally have an alternative for bodies that have been rotting for like 20 minutes until a traitor or Shadowling gets caught and now they need every organ replaced.
Just a way of generating an inert body with the exact name and features of the person because GOD I hate ending up on a miscolored monkeyhuman body after a decapitation.
Just a way of generating an inert body with the exact name and features of the person because GOD I hate ending up on a miscolored monkeyhuman body after a decapitation.
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
I wish we could talk about making medical more pleasurable, easier to learn and a faster job to do without the "return cloning" people distracting from it with a demand that's obviously never going to be met.
I imagine a world where every human has a dedicated organ UI similar to the strip menu where each organ and limb is visualised and the status of the layers above each organ (i.e. how close we are to getting through to the organ itself) is visible based on the colour/texture overlay of the slot. Similar to the UIs in Pathologic or the board game Operation. This would make it obvious at a glance which limbs are being operated on and hint at which tool to use next. You would also no longer have to rely on selecting limbs from the fiddly little health doll. You could also make certain surgical instruments thicker or add transparent pixels to lessen the pixel hunting involved in selecting them.
I would also make operating computers work with stasis beds, and copy all the information health analysers give to them to lessen the need to switch to them and spam them constantly.
If the impact these steps had on the speed of medbay still wasn't enough, you could do things like speeding up individual surgery steps or removing some altogether.
You don't need to add cloning back to reduce the quagmire that medical has become.
I imagine a world where every human has a dedicated organ UI similar to the strip menu where each organ and limb is visualised and the status of the layers above each organ (i.e. how close we are to getting through to the organ itself) is visible based on the colour/texture overlay of the slot. Similar to the UIs in Pathologic or the board game Operation. This would make it obvious at a glance which limbs are being operated on and hint at which tool to use next. You would also no longer have to rely on selecting limbs from the fiddly little health doll. You could also make certain surgical instruments thicker or add transparent pixels to lessen the pixel hunting involved in selecting them.
I would also make operating computers work with stasis beds, and copy all the information health analysers give to them to lessen the need to switch to them and spam them constantly.
If the impact these steps had on the speed of medbay still wasn't enough, you could do things like speeding up individual surgery steps or removing some altogether.
You don't need to add cloning back to reduce the quagmire that medical has become.
I don't disagree and like most of medical this issue seems like a dumb oversight they're trying to justify rather than fix but is podcloning not suitable for this? Genuine question.Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:10 pm I think, specifically, it would be REALLY NICE if you could clone a body to generate specific-person human burgers with the chef make replacement biological limbs, transplant the brain/a cortical stack, and just generally have an alternative for bodies that have been rotting for like 20 minutes until a traitor or Shadowling gets caught and now they need every organ replaced.
Just a way of generating an inert body with the exact name and features of the person because GOD I hate ending up on a miscolored monkeyhuman body after a decapitation.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
I wish we could have a world where you weren't constantly trying to undermine jobs to make the game easier for yourself because you want to get back to validhunting faster, but we can't always get what we want.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
The problem with podcloning is it's a combination of fast, easy, and noninteractive.
I feel like everyone who was around for it should remember that it sucked, actually, having a geneticist the next room over too busy trying to get hulk so he can grief security to put the bodies behind him through the cloner so an assistant breaks in or the AI bolts the door open (because this predated Emergency Access door settings) and a couple assistants run the cloner and your stuff just happens to often not make it to your new body and nobody can tell if a body lying around has been cloned or not yet but it won't clone when you put it in the pod so it probably got done already but nobody takes it out of the pile of 9 bodies under the input pod and...
Don't even get me started on the era of the autocloner, which involved an endless stream of self-reviving validhunters.
I feel like everyone who was around for it should remember that it sucked, actually, having a geneticist the next room over too busy trying to get hulk so he can grief security to put the bodies behind him through the cloner so an assistant breaks in or the AI bolts the door open (because this predated Emergency Access door settings) and a couple assistants run the cloner and your stuff just happens to often not make it to your new body and nobody can tell if a body lying around has been cloned or not yet but it won't clone when you put it in the pod so it probably got done already but nobody takes it out of the pile of 9 bodies under the input pod and...
Don't even get me started on the era of the autocloner, which involved an endless stream of self-reviving validhunters.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
It would be a great way to hide from sec, I'm up for this also monkeyhuman? More like Moth body Human head.Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:10 pm Just a way of generating an inert body with the exact name and features of the person because GOD I hate ending up on a miscolored monkeyhuman body after a decapitation.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
auto machine that implants my corteal into a body whenever I dont a send signal over 10 minutes(I get a warning 1 minute before)Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:13 am\t of the pile of 9 bodies under the input pod and...
Don't even get me started on the era of the autocloner, which involved an endless stream of self-reviving validhunters.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
The problems I'm laying out are objective:
1. It's not fun, due to how shitty the "UX" is
2. It takes too long per injury and per patient, which leads to medbay being swamped with bodies and doctor fatigue
3. The UI (i.e. health analysers, operating computers, examine descriptions) is half-assed and sometimes inaccurate, making the process more confusing especially for newer players
4. Most of the job relies on either outside wiki reading (which people don't want to do) or learning from other players (who aren't always available) and events in-game are often not intuitive (e.g. why is this bandage not stopping this person's chest from bleeding?)
5. Players are forced to sit out or even worse spend far longer than the originally intended 5 minutes in crit while they wait on somebody to heal them
If I could be assed I would play medical more and keep a list of the issues I see. They're definitely there, even if people like you and Cobby and even some of the admins are weirdly hostile towards acknowledging them.
I was asking why, when a body is prohibitively damaged to the point where fixing it would take 20+ minutes, you couldn't just clone them using hydroponics. Maybe the possibility didn't occur to you. I was not trying to dismiss the problem you pointed out, just wondering the drawbacks of that solution.Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:13 am The problem with podcloning is it's a combination of fast, easy, and noninteractive.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
Surgery computers actually walk you through the process of each surgery now, which reduces Wiki reliance and is REALLY nice. Doesn't tell you how to end the surgery but it's pretty good progress from previous iterations of surgery mechanics. That said, there is a huge amount of what I would almost call tribal knowledge, like "Always just cryo people with severe burn infections and NEVER try to fix it with surgery"cacogen wrote: ↑Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:27 pmThe problems I'm laying out are objective:
1. It's not fun, due to how shitty the "UX" is
2. It takes too long per injury and per patient, which leads to medbay being swamped with bodies and doctor fatigue
3. The UI (i.e. health analysers, operating computers, examine descriptions) is half-assed and sometimes inaccurate, making the process more confusing especially for newer players
4. Most of the job relies on either outside wiki reading (which people don't want to do) or learning from other players (who aren't always available) and events in-game are often not intuitive (e.g. why is this bandage not stopping this person's chest from bleeding?)
5. Players are forced to sit out or even worse spend far longer than the originally intended 5 minutes in crit while they wait on somebody to heal them
If I could be assed I would play medical more and keep a list of the issues I see. They're definitely there, even if people like you and Cobby and even some of the admins are weirdly hostile towards acknowledging them.
I was asking why, when a body is prohibitively damaged to the point where fixing it would take 20+ minutes, you couldn't just clone them using hydroponics. Maybe the possibility didn't occur to you. I was not trying to dismiss the problem you pointed out, just wondering the drawbacks of that solution.Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:13 am The problem with podcloning is it's a combination of fast, easy, and noninteractive.
AND OH
HYDROPONICS PODPEOPLE CLONING
NOT CLONING PODS
Uh, the problem there is you know how doctors hate relying on science to actually do shit?
Botany is that, but a dozen times worse (also you can't draw blood from a husk). Good luck freeing up one of those shitheads' drug trays to actually get the mutation and the cloning done.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
I know, but the majority of the time you'll be operating on people on stasis beds and they deliberately changed operating computers to not be compatible with them.Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:47 am Surgery computers actually walk you through the process of each surgery now, which reduces Wiki reliance and is REALLY nice.
There are also moments where operating computers will tell you the next step but it's not clear how to carry it out (for example, when you have to use your hands instead of a surgical instrument) and you usually don't want to experiment by using your hands on someone because it shakes them up.
When I'm operating on someone on a stasis bed and I don't know what the next step is I usually just try every instrument on them until I start getting a feel for the surgeries and instinctively know what comes next. I don't want to be constantly alt+tabbing to a wiki page to find the next step. So surgery turns into a game of Simon Says, where you try to remember what worked last time you did this particular procedure. You shouldn't need to guess or to consult a wiki page to know how to perform a surgery. The game should hint at it, to help players learn faster.
It feels like nowadays people tend to hoard information, rather than share knowledge and strategies the way that they used to. Medical knowledge should be given to you by the game for everyone's benefit. Instead of you somehow stumbling into it by yourself or someone else having to clue you in.Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:47 amDoesn't tell you how to end the surgery but it's pretty good progress from previous iterations of surgery mechanics. That said, there is a huge amount of what I would almost call tribal knowledge, like "Always just cryo people with severe burn infections and NEVER try to fix it with surgery"
Interdepartmental cooperation is meme. Yeah, you don't want to leave medical to visit another department and try to convince them to help you or at least let you in to do it yourself when they're likely absent or occupied with their own goals. But I'm guessing there are other reasons people don't use replica pod cloning, other than not thinking of it. Probably people don't want to play as plantpeople, or they have some kind of species disadvantage or something.Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:47 am Uh, the problem there is you know how doctors hate relying on science to actually do shit?
Botany is that, but a dozen times worse (also you can't draw blood from a husk). Good luck freeing up one of those shitheads' drug trays to actually get the mutation and the cloning done.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
I'd happily podclone people if I was ever asked, but it takes a lot more time to get pod seeds now. I don't want to always set aside a tray for mutating a cabbage shiftstart, especially when I'm constantly busy typically. It's not like the old days when we could just dump mutagen on the plant until it mutates.
Personally I think that death is still a slap on the wrist as it is, and that there should be lingering effects after revival that compound with each revival. Like permanently reducing the max organ health or a new class of minor, but permanent traumas.
Personally I think that death is still a slap on the wrist as it is, and that there should be lingering effects after revival that compound with each revival. Like permanently reducing the max organ health or a new class of minor, but permanent traumas.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
This is an unpopular opinion among the "everything should be fixable" crowd but I 100% agree that dying should be serious and difficult to come back from even with tens of minutes spent on surgeries.BrianBackslide wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:33 am I'd happily podclone people if I was ever asked, but it takes a lot more time to get pod seeds now. I don't want to always set aside a tray for mutating a cabbage shiftstart, especially when I'm constantly busy typically. It's not like the old days when we could just dump mutagen on the plant until it mutates.
Personally I think that death is still a slap on the wrist as it is, and that there should be lingering effects after revival that compound with each revival. Like permanently reducing the max organ health or a new class of minor, but permanent traumas.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
Still not sure why this considered coding feedback, but uhh, its a defib in the future. Maybe they have the power to correct an irregular heartbeat and restart it through space magic, nanites, or some other maguffin. I never really cared for it despite knowing how they work irl, and there's enough games where this is considered the norm that most people don't seem to have to suspend their disbelief either (battlefield being probably the most notable example).Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:07 am What's the point of all this? What the hell am I arguing? I don't know. It's not like I am making a case for cloning. The big problem is just that defibrillators don't work like that, but mechanically its fine. So maybe you could put some witty flavor text on it about how bullshit it is or something. I don't know.
Also imo any increase in the amount of time it takes to revive people will also decrease the number of dead people it takes for a shuttle call, thus shortening the rounds. I enjoy rounds where we are able to do a recovery, and that would be nigh impossible if reviving took far longer.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
The radical solution is to not let dead people revive at all.mstachife wrote: ↑Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:53 amStill not sure why this considered coding feedback, but uhh, its a defib in the future. Maybe they have the power to correct an irregular heartbeat and restart it through space magic, nanites, or some other maguffin. I never really cared for it despite knowing how they work irl, and there's enough games where this is considered the norm that most people don't seem to have to suspend their disbelief either (battlefield being probably the most notable example).Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:07 am What's the point of all this? What the hell am I arguing? I don't know. It's not like I am making a case for cloning. The big problem is just that defibrillators don't work like that, but mechanically its fine. So maybe you could put some witty flavor text on it about how bullshit it is or something. I don't know.
Also imo any increase in the amount of time it takes to revive people will also decrease the number of dead people it takes for a shuttle call, thus shortening the rounds. I enjoy rounds where we are able to do a recovery, and that would be nigh impossible if reviving took far longer.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
Then people will want a respawn shuttle, because sitting in ghost chat isnt fun and otherwise we go home after 40 minutes. Then we ask ourselves why we went through all this trouble instead of just having a method to revive ingame.Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:43 am The radical solution is to not let dead people revive at all.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
I don't want a respawn shuttle either. That's why I said It was a radical solution. But that's far aside from the point of the thread in general.mstachife wrote: ↑Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:06 pmThen people will want a respawn shuttle, because sitting in ghost chat isnt fun and otherwise we go home after 40 minutes. Then we ask ourselves why we went through all this trouble instead of just having a method to revive ingame.Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:43 am The radical solution is to not let dead people revive at all.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
The far-pain solution is to make revival consume anomaly cores.Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:43 amThe radical solution is to not let dead people revive at all.mstachife wrote: ↑Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:53 amStill not sure why this considered coding feedback, but uhh, its a defib in the future. Maybe they have the power to correct an irregular heartbeat and restart it through space magic, nanites, or some other maguffin. I never really cared for it despite knowing how they work irl, and there's enough games where this is considered the norm that most people don't seem to have to suspend their disbelief either (battlefield being probably the most notable example).Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:07 am What's the point of all this? What the hell am I arguing? I don't know. It's not like I am making a case for cloning. The big problem is just that defibrillators don't work like that, but mechanically its fine. So maybe you could put some witty flavor text on it about how bullshit it is or something. I don't know.
Also imo any increase in the amount of time it takes to revive people will also decrease the number of dead people it takes for a shuttle call, thus shortening the rounds. I enjoy rounds where we are able to do a recovery, and that would be nigh impossible if reviving took far longer.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.
careful, coders might actually do that because of the belief that interdepartmental dependency is good
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