A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

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A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #619009

I want to preface this with the fact that I am well aware that the systems in place are meant to create fun and balanced gameplay and have been shifted dramatically and forcefully by the removal of cloning and I can't really blame them for that. That being said, the way you bring someone back from the dead medically is fucking dumb from a medical point of view.

So the most common way specimens back are through a defibrillator or resurrection surgery. As a quick overview, this works if the body damage is not so damaged that it would immediately die, that the body has a working heart, has enough blood, isn't husked, and has a functioning brain. In-game this switches your state to alive or whatever if all of those conditions are met. In +lore+ supposedly you are restarting a person's heart to get it pumping blood again which leads to the brain coming back online and booms your alive. I'll tell you why this is all bullshit.

I'm gonna skip the obvious part about brain death for a moment and talk about defibrillators. It is a common misconception that defibrillators have to power to restart a heart, this is blatantly untrue. Defibrillators are not actually used to restart a stopped heart, but rather to correct an irregular heartbeat such as those that cause cardiac arrest. It is not the purpose of defibrillators to restart a heart, nor do they have the capacity to do so. Media often exaugurates the abilities of the defibrillator which leads to this misconception being common. Because "clinical death" does not require the heart to stop, only cease functioning (in the same way we can call a Furby "not functioning" when its battery implodes and lets out an ear-piercing screech at 2 am) people may be able to be recovered from clinical death provided the heart is still "alive" and "beating" if irregularly. Once your heart goes out for real you aren't coming back unless you are hooked up to some artificial heart and have a transplant on the way, which is obviously pretty irrelevant outside of surgery.

I would say that in most of the deaths in ss13 your heart would stop almost instantly, some of the things that might get you to "clinical death" without restarting your heart would be 02 loss, blood loss, and some poisons. A defib is never going to save you from getting your skull bashed in with a toolbox no matter how hard you repair the broken bone. Even provided you go out by one of these deaths that might keep your heart active afterward, it is pretty impossible for that heart to sustain even an uneasy beat for a significant amount of time without an oxygen supply. So that's the main point on why you couldn't restart a heart.

On to the easier topic, it's a widely accepted medical fact that once a brain stops functioning, it can never function again. Brain death is unrecoverable. The longest time recorded a living brain continued to emit brainwaves without circulation was 30 minutes, I would not personally call that "death" and rather a comatose state but you could define that as clinical death. The average time that a brain can last without circulation is 5 to 10 minutes.


Playing devils advocate and giving ss13 the benefit of the doubt by saying that it only classifies death in the clinical sense and that every spaceman's brain is adapted to last as long as possible without circulation, as well as saying every time someone "dies" both their heart and brain remain alive (even if they were shot in the head by a .357 revolver or all the blood fell out of their body), makes in so you could ARGUE that a spaceman could be resurrected up to 30 minutes following their death. And that not even accounting for bullshit like heart transplants in dead patients.



What's the point of all this? What the hell am I arguing? I don't know. It's not like I am making a case for cloning. The big problem is just that defibrillators don't work like that, but mechanically its fine. So maybe you could put some witty flavor text on it about how bullshit it is or something. I don't know.
- Sincerely itseasytosee
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by Armhulen » #619020

rename them defarkulators and they defark the patient, which is different from defibbing!
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by EuSouAFazenda » #619035

You literally answered your own question in your own first paragraph. Anyone who cares more about realism than game design should not be trusted with github access.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by HommandoSA » #619045

And it's impossible to learn another species language by implanting their tongue in your mouth. Medbay needs a reality check.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #619109

EuSouAFazenda wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:56 am You literally answered your own question in your own first paragraph. Anyone who cares more about realism than game design should not be trusted with github access.
I didn't ask any nonrhetorical questions. I'm pretty well aware. It's a perpetuation of a stereotype.
Last edited by Itseasytosee2me on Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Sincerely itseasytosee
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by Pandarsenic » #619122

HommandoSA wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:15 am And it's impossible to learn another species language by implanting their tongue in your mouth. Medbay needs a reality check.
Based on personal experience, you can do this IRL, actually

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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by Rohen_Tahir » #619254

Itseasytosee2me wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:07 am I want to preface this with the fact that I am well aware that the systems in place are meant to create fun and balanced gameplay and have been shifted dramatically and forcefully by the removal of cloning and I can't really blame them for that. That being said, the way you bring someone back from the dead medically is fucking dumb from a medical point of view.

So the most common way specimens back are through a defibrillator or resurrection surgery. As a quick overview, this works if the body damage is not so damaged that it would immediately die, that the body has a working heart, has enough blood, isn't husked, and has a functioning brain. In-game this switches your state to alive or whatever if all of those conditions are met. In +lore+ supposedly you are restarting a person's heart to get it pumping blood again which leads to the brain coming back online and booms your alive. I'll tell you why this is all bullshit.

I'm gonna skip the obvious part about brain death for a moment and talk about defibrillators. It is a common misconception that defibrillators have to power to restart a heart, this is blatantly untrue. Defibrillators are not actually used to restart a stopped heart, but rather to correct an irregular heartbeat such as those that cause cardiac arrest. It is not the purpose of defibrillators to restart a heart, nor do they have the capacity to do so. Media often exaugurates the abilities of the defibrillator which leads to this misconception being common. Because "clinical death" does not require the heart to stop, only cease functioning (in the same way we can call a Furby "not functioning" when its battery implodes and lets out an ear-piercing screech at 2 am) people may be able to be recovered from clinical death provided the heart is still "alive" and "beating" if irregularly. Once your heart goes out for real you aren't coming back unless you are hooked up to some artificial heart and have a transplant on the way, which is obviously pretty irrelevant outside of surgery.

I would say that in most of the deaths in ss13 your heart would stop almost instantly, some of the things that might get you to "clinical death" without restarting your heart would be 02 loss, blood loss, and some poisons. A defib is never going to save you from getting your skull bashed in with a toolbox no matter how hard you repair the broken bone. Even provided you go out by one of these deaths that might keep your heart active afterward, it is pretty impossible for that heart to sustain even an uneasy beat for a significant amount of time without an oxygen supply. So that's the main point on why you couldn't restart a heart.

On to the easier topic, it's a widely accepted medical fact that once a brain stops functioning, it can never function again. Brain death is unrecoverable. The longest time recorded a living brain continued to emit brainwaves without circulation was 30 minutes, I would not personally call that "death" and rather a comatose state but you could define that as clinical death. The average time that a brain can last without circulation is 5 to 10 minutes.


Playing devils advocate and giving ss13 the benefit of the doubt by saying that it only classifies death in the clinical sense and that every spaceman's brain is adapted to last as long as possible without circulation, as well as saying every time someone "dies" both their heart and brain remain alive (even if they were shot in the head by a .357 revolver or all the blood fell out of their body), makes in so you could ARGUE that a spaceman could be resurrected up to 30 minutes following their death. And that not even accounting for bullshit like heart transplants in dead patients.



What's the point of all this? What the hell am I arguing? I don't know. It's not like I am making a case for cloning. The big problem is just that defibrillators don't work like that, but mechanically its fine. So maybe you could put some witty flavor text on it about how bullshit it is or something. I don't know.
The defibrilator uses quantum nanotechnology.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by cacogen » #619263

yeah medbay needs an overhaul
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by Cobby » #619353

Okay
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by terranaut » #619355

bring back cloning
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by cacogen » #619369

I'd make my own feedback thread on why medbay has been in a bad place for a long time now but both the maintainers and the admins are very defensive about it for some reason and I don't think it would be a useful thing to do for myself.

The issues are basically that healing takes too long, the system is unintuitive for new players to learn and the controls and UI are fiddly and the entire process is tedious and repetitive which make it enjoyable. Doctors get sick of their jobs partway through the shift and medbay can't keep up with the numbers of bodies generated in high chaos rounds. Bodies can become unrevivable because their wounds are simply too severe to be treated in any feasible length of time. This leads to a bunch of people having to sit out which is bad for the round and the game in general.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by Super Aggro Crag » #619376

chuck em in the cloner
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by Armhulen » #619385

terranaut wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:23 pm bring back cloning
convince me with a document
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by terranaut » #619386

Armhulen wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:59 pm
terranaut wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:23 pm bring back cloning
convince me with a document
what points do you need addressed
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by Pandarsenic » #619434

cacogen wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:47 pm I'd make my own feedback thread on why medbay has been in a bad place for a long time now but both the maintainers and the admins are very defensive about it for some reason and I don't think it would be a useful thing to do for myself.

The issues are basically that healing takes too long, the system is unintuitive for new players to learn and the controls and UI are fiddly and the entire process is tedious and repetitive which make it enjoyable. Doctors get sick of their jobs partway through the shift and medbay can't keep up with the numbers of bodies generated in high chaos rounds. Bodies can become unrevivable because their wounds are simply too severe to be treated in any feasible length of time. This leads to a bunch of people having to sit out which is bad for the round and the game in general.
This wouldn't be so bad if science would reliably get the ONE GODDAMN GRAY SLIME SCAN that's needed to get improved surgeries
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #619514

Pandarsenic wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:43 am
This wouldn't be so bad if science would reliably get the ONE GODDAMN GRAY SLIME SCAN that's needed to get improved surgeries
You could also argue that needing a slime scan for medical research is a tedious system that only reliably works with a full and coordinated staff.
- Sincerely itseasytosee
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by Pandarsenic » #619547

It's kind of a no-win situation because it's supposed to be "Departments are encouraged to work together"

But nobody wants to work with the rest of the station less than the xenobiologists.

Possibly the most exasperating thing in the game is breaking into xenobiology for a gray slime scan as a Medical Doctor only to find the entire room filled with passive gold slime mobs just vibing.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by Cobby » #619716

Armhulen wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:59 pm
terranaut wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:23 pm bring back cloning
convince me with a document
Cloning design wise must

1. Require the body
2. Require actively working on the patient
3. Acknowledge the existing methods of resurrection and work in a way that either fairly competes or paves its own (which may require editing the balance of some of the other methods).

If you can draft up a document that navigates through those 3 things and still ends up being cloning be my guest, but otherwise its getting blocked.

I could MAYBE be sold on 1 being malleable if you were going to sell me on the fact that you would not see cloning on most rounds or something where the feature is not expected to be in every round on a practical level.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by oranges » #619718

don't bother, im never going to permit cloning again.

so keep your document till im dead.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by Cobby » #619720

cacogen wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:47 pm I'd make my own feedback thread on why medbay has been in a bad place for a long time now but both the maintainers and the admins are very defensive about it for some reason and I don't think it would be a useful thing to do for myself.

The issues are basically that healing takes too long, the system is unintuitive for new players to learn and the controls and UI are fiddly and the entire process is tedious and repetitive which make it enjoyable. Doctors get sick of their jobs partway through the shift and medbay can't keep up with the numbers of bodies generated in high chaos rounds. Bodies can become unrevivable because their wounds are simply too severe to be treated in any feasible length of time. This leads to a bunch of people having to sit out which is bad for the round and the game in general.
We disagree on pretty fundamental levels so that makes sense.
  • Taking damage should matter. This means that if someone does a LOT of damage, that impact SHOULD overwhelm the department and it SHOULD be difficult to treat people who have experienced considerably more damage than your scratches and bruises
  • I could genuinely care less if something is "repeatable". I simply cannot constantly cater to the 1000 hr player who is trying to milk the game for what it's worth (a free game). That said, I do encourage people to contribute to medical in a way that individuals have to determine based on the situation what route is best. To me that is the ideal state of medical in that while the procedures might be straight forward, it is knowing when it is best to use those options that make it ideal. To do that we have to make multiple ways to approach a scenario and each have their own tradeoffs. Compared to previous medical, we are certainly in the right direction on this point.
  • Knowing this, if you still brazenly get into combat with people you cant turn around and complain you find yourself sitting out and having to wait for a revive. If people genuinely believed sitting out was bad, then I dont see why murderboning is still allowed on LRP including when cloning existing. Its certainly punishes you, perhaps through no fault of your own, but we had a lot of hyperlethal items (still do) that can easily take you out of the round with no practical counter and no one seems to bat an eye. In fact, if you are implying you preferred older TG, that was even more hyperlethal and you could instantly be taken out of the round and gibbed fairly easily (remember pen/C4?). At worst, we are again stepping in the right direction.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by datorangebottle » #619721

terranaut wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:23 pm delete medbay
post corrected.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by terranaut » #619756

Cobby wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:26 am I could genuinely care less if something is "repeatable".
That means you do care.
Hope that helps.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by EuSouAFazenda » #619835

Why did you call it a short rant that's 7 paragraphs
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #619838

EuSouAFazenda wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:31 pm Why did you call it a short rant that's 7 paragraphs
This is what a long rant looks like: viewtopic.php?f=33&t=30272
- Sincerely itseasytosee
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by Super Aggro Crag » #620025

oranges wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:19 am don't bother, im never going to permit cloning again.

so keep your document till im dead.
when u die no one will clone you
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by Farquaar » #620052

Cobby wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:09 am
Armhulen wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:59 pm
terranaut wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:23 pm bring back cloning
convince me with a document
Cloning design wise must

1. Require the body
2. Require actively working on the patient
3. Acknowledge the existing methods of resurrection and work in a way that either fairly competes or paves its own (which may require editing the balance of some of the other methods).

If you can draft up a document that navigates through those 3 things and still ends up being cloning be my guest, but otherwise its getting blocked.

I could MAYBE be sold on 1 being malleable if you were going to sell me on the fact that you would not see cloning on most rounds or something where the feature is not expected to be in every round on a practical level.
I've posted this idea in a few threads before. I still think it's cool. The main advantage of nu-cloning would be that it doesn't require an MD's absolute attention for the entire procedure (like medical resurrection). The key disadvantages would be that it requires the doc to hang around the cloning machine, and requires some remedies to be prepared in advance or at least very quickly on the fly. For a medbay to employ nu-cloning, having a robust chemist or deep pockets would be advantageous.
► Show Spoiler
I should also add that now that we have 24/7 dynamic, cloned sec officers who don't get re-implanted have a chance of being traitors, which could add some spice to the game.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by oranges » #620061

Super Aggro Crag wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:20 am
oranges wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:19 am don't bother, im never going to permit cloning again.

so keep your document till im dead.
when u die no one will clone you
I certainly hope so
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by TheFinalPotato » #620149

Armhulen wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:59 pm
terranaut wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:23 pm bring back cloning
convince me with a document
Arm please god
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by Armhulen » #620153

TheFinalPotato wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:46 am
Armhulen wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:59 pm
terranaut wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:23 pm bring back cloning
convince me with a document
Arm please god
If you just say "cloning" without the context of what it was when removed the idea of cloning is very in theme with the universe. Themes can be implemented in any number of good ways
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by TheFinalPotato » #620166

It's terra-boomer-naut he just wants the old days back
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by Pandarsenic » #620173

Honestly I would love if we did something like Cortical Stacks and "cloning" actually meant "surgically transplanting the stack into a cloned host body."
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by Jonathan Gupta » #620177

Pandarsenic wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:05 am "surgically transplanting the stack into a cloned host body."
thats beautiful, why don't we just copy cortical stacks from a person's body and do surgery that takes hours even days.
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Omega_DarkPotato wrote:I keep gupta unblocked because his posts are funnier than spam text
cacogen wrote:
Jonathan Gupta wrote: you see my inner psyche in each of my posts I'll demonstrate a conversation I had with myself recently "ROCK ON!!!!! Loserx9 *laugh uncontrollably* LOSEEEEEEEER *do a rock sign* *do 20 pushups* TURN THAT SHIT UP!!!! *Invisible remote turns it up* *Chuckle till you go to sleep*" and I'm not happy either when I laugh this all happens within 5 seconds by the way 10 seconds for the pushups.
this sounds like hell
for me, it's wondering why mark Wahlberg is able to get away with what he's done
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by Helios » #620207

I learned a long time ago, I am on the wrong side of this cloning issue.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=26719
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by Pandarsenic » #620209

I think, specifically, it would be REALLY NICE if you could clone a body to generate specific-person human burgers with the chef make replacement biological limbs, transplant the brain/a cortical stack, and just generally have an alternative for bodies that have been rotting for like 20 minutes until a traitor or Shadowling gets caught and now they need every organ replaced.

Just a way of generating an inert body with the exact name and features of the person because GOD I hate ending up on a miscolored monkeyhuman body after a decapitation.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by cacogen » #620237

I wish we could talk about making medical more pleasurable, easier to learn and a faster job to do without the "return cloning" people distracting from it with a demand that's obviously never going to be met.

I imagine a world where every human has a dedicated organ UI similar to the strip menu where each organ and limb is visualised and the status of the layers above each organ (i.e. how close we are to getting through to the organ itself) is visible based on the colour/texture overlay of the slot. Similar to the UIs in Pathologic or the board game Operation. This would make it obvious at a glance which limbs are being operated on and hint at which tool to use next. You would also no longer have to rely on selecting limbs from the fiddly little health doll. You could also make certain surgical instruments thicker or add transparent pixels to lessen the pixel hunting involved in selecting them.

I would also make operating computers work with stasis beds, and copy all the information health analysers give to them to lessen the need to switch to them and spam them constantly.

If the impact these steps had on the speed of medbay still wasn't enough, you could do things like speeding up individual surgery steps or removing some altogether.

You don't need to add cloning back to reduce the quagmire that medical has become.
Pandarsenic wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:10 pm I think, specifically, it would be REALLY NICE if you could clone a body to generate specific-person human burgers with the chef make replacement biological limbs, transplant the brain/a cortical stack, and just generally have an alternative for bodies that have been rotting for like 20 minutes until a traitor or Shadowling gets caught and now they need every organ replaced.

Just a way of generating an inert body with the exact name and features of the person because GOD I hate ending up on a miscolored monkeyhuman body after a decapitation.
I don't disagree and like most of medical this issue seems like a dumb oversight they're trying to justify rather than fix but is podcloning not suitable for this? Genuine question.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by oranges » #620245

I wish we could have a world where you weren't constantly trying to undermine jobs to make the game easier for yourself because you want to get back to validhunting faster, but we can't always get what we want.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by Pandarsenic » #620254

The problem with podcloning is it's a combination of fast, easy, and noninteractive.

I feel like everyone who was around for it should remember that it sucked, actually, having a geneticist the next room over too busy trying to get hulk so he can grief security to put the bodies behind him through the cloner so an assistant breaks in or the AI bolts the door open (because this predated Emergency Access door settings) and a couple assistants run the cloner and your stuff just happens to often not make it to your new body and nobody can tell if a body lying around has been cloned or not yet but it won't clone when you put it in the pod so it probably got done already but nobody takes it out of the pile of 9 bodies under the input pod and...

Don't even get me started on the era of the autocloner, which involved an endless stream of self-reviving validhunters.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by Jonathan Gupta » #620260

Pandarsenic wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:10 pm Just a way of generating an inert body with the exact name and features of the person because GOD I hate ending up on a miscolored monkeyhuman body after a decapitation.
It would be a great way to hide from sec, I'm up for this also monkeyhuman? More like Moth body Human head.
The internet is a joke so why not act like one?
Stickymayhem wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:20 pm don't think any more time spent on a written discussion is going to be more fruitful than boxing with a blind paraplegic

NSFW:
Fanfiction of gupta+safety sex goliath when(SOON)?!
Spoiler:
XivilaiAnaxes wrote:Good luck with getting into any other ss13 servers Gupta
This shit is going everywhere
Everyone will know your little scheme
And we will find everyone involved
Fucking POS
Jonathan Gupta wrote:sneezed twice a cute girl must be talking about me :mrgreen:
Agux909 wrote:I get psychological damage every time I read one of Gupta's posts.
Stickymayhem wrote:you know if you just add Jonathan Gupta to your blocked list on the forums you can save /tg/station
Omega_DarkPotato wrote:I keep gupta unblocked because his posts are funnier than spam text
cacogen wrote:
Jonathan Gupta wrote: you see my inner psyche in each of my posts I'll demonstrate a conversation I had with myself recently "ROCK ON!!!!! Loserx9 *laugh uncontrollably* LOSEEEEEEEER *do a rock sign* *do 20 pushups* TURN THAT SHIT UP!!!! *Invisible remote turns it up* *Chuckle till you go to sleep*" and I'm not happy either when I laugh this all happens within 5 seconds by the way 10 seconds for the pushups.
this sounds like hell
for me, it's wondering why mark Wahlberg is able to get away with what he's done
Farquaar wrote:
Jonathan Gupta wrote:true
I need proof because you're Jonathan Gupta
Nabski wrote:Gupta is one of the three people I've ever bothered to block on the forums.
Fhaxaris wrote:Gupta
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by Jonathan Gupta » #620261

Pandarsenic wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:13 am\t of the pile of 9 bodies under the input pod and...

Don't even get me started on the era of the autocloner, which involved an endless stream of self-reviving validhunters.
auto machine that implants my corteal into a body whenever I dont a send signal over 10 minutes(I get a warning 1 minute before)
The internet is a joke so why not act like one?
Stickymayhem wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:20 pm don't think any more time spent on a written discussion is going to be more fruitful than boxing with a blind paraplegic

NSFW:
Fanfiction of gupta+safety sex goliath when(SOON)?!
Spoiler:
XivilaiAnaxes wrote:Good luck with getting into any other ss13 servers Gupta
This shit is going everywhere
Everyone will know your little scheme
And we will find everyone involved
Fucking POS
Jonathan Gupta wrote:sneezed twice a cute girl must be talking about me :mrgreen:
Agux909 wrote:I get psychological damage every time I read one of Gupta's posts.
Stickymayhem wrote:you know if you just add Jonathan Gupta to your blocked list on the forums you can save /tg/station
Omega_DarkPotato wrote:I keep gupta unblocked because his posts are funnier than spam text
cacogen wrote:
Jonathan Gupta wrote: you see my inner psyche in each of my posts I'll demonstrate a conversation I had with myself recently "ROCK ON!!!!! Loserx9 *laugh uncontrollably* LOSEEEEEEEER *do a rock sign* *do 20 pushups* TURN THAT SHIT UP!!!! *Invisible remote turns it up* *Chuckle till you go to sleep*" and I'm not happy either when I laugh this all happens within 5 seconds by the way 10 seconds for the pushups.
this sounds like hell
for me, it's wondering why mark Wahlberg is able to get away with what he's done
Farquaar wrote:
Jonathan Gupta wrote:true
I need proof because you're Jonathan Gupta
Nabski wrote:Gupta is one of the three people I've ever bothered to block on the forums.
Fhaxaris wrote:Gupta
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by cacogen » #620333

oranges wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:23 am I wish we could have a world where you weren't constantly trying to undermine jobs to make the game easier for yourself because you want to get back to validhunting faster, but we can't always get what we want.
The problems I'm laying out are objective:

1. It's not fun, due to how shitty the "UX" is
2. It takes too long per injury and per patient, which leads to medbay being swamped with bodies and doctor fatigue
3. The UI (i.e. health analysers, operating computers, examine descriptions) is half-assed and sometimes inaccurate, making the process more confusing especially for newer players
4. Most of the job relies on either outside wiki reading (which people don't want to do) or learning from other players (who aren't always available) and events in-game are often not intuitive (e.g. why is this bandage not stopping this person's chest from bleeding?)
5. Players are forced to sit out or even worse spend far longer than the originally intended 5 minutes in crit while they wait on somebody to heal them

If I could be assed I would play medical more and keep a list of the issues I see. They're definitely there, even if people like you and Cobby and even some of the admins are weirdly hostile towards acknowledging them.
Pandarsenic wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:13 am The problem with podcloning is it's a combination of fast, easy, and noninteractive.
I was asking why, when a body is prohibitively damaged to the point where fixing it would take 20+ minutes, you couldn't just clone them using hydroponics. Maybe the possibility didn't occur to you. I was not trying to dismiss the problem you pointed out, just wondering the drawbacks of that solution.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by Pandarsenic » #620342

cacogen wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:27 pm
oranges wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:23 am I wish we could have a world where you weren't constantly trying to undermine jobs to make the game easier for yourself because you want to get back to validhunting faster, but we can't always get what we want.
The problems I'm laying out are objective:

1. It's not fun, due to how shitty the "UX" is
2. It takes too long per injury and per patient, which leads to medbay being swamped with bodies and doctor fatigue
3. The UI (i.e. health analysers, operating computers, examine descriptions) is half-assed and sometimes inaccurate, making the process more confusing especially for newer players
4. Most of the job relies on either outside wiki reading (which people don't want to do) or learning from other players (who aren't always available) and events in-game are often not intuitive (e.g. why is this bandage not stopping this person's chest from bleeding?)
5. Players are forced to sit out or even worse spend far longer than the originally intended 5 minutes in crit while they wait on somebody to heal them

If I could be assed I would play medical more and keep a list of the issues I see. They're definitely there, even if people like you and Cobby and even some of the admins are weirdly hostile towards acknowledging them.
Pandarsenic wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:13 am The problem with podcloning is it's a combination of fast, easy, and noninteractive.
I was asking why, when a body is prohibitively damaged to the point where fixing it would take 20+ minutes, you couldn't just clone them using hydroponics. Maybe the possibility didn't occur to you. I was not trying to dismiss the problem you pointed out, just wondering the drawbacks of that solution.
Surgery computers actually walk you through the process of each surgery now, which reduces Wiki reliance and is REALLY nice. Doesn't tell you how to end the surgery but it's pretty good progress from previous iterations of surgery mechanics. That said, there is a huge amount of what I would almost call tribal knowledge, like "Always just cryo people with severe burn infections and NEVER try to fix it with surgery"

AND OH

HYDROPONICS PODPEOPLE CLONING

NOT CLONING PODS

Uh, the problem there is you know how doctors hate relying on science to actually do shit?

Botany is that, but a dozen times worse (also you can't draw blood from a husk). Good luck freeing up one of those shitheads' drug trays to actually get the mutation and the cloning done.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by cacogen » #620433

Pandarsenic wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:47 am Surgery computers actually walk you through the process of each surgery now, which reduces Wiki reliance and is REALLY nice.
I know, but the majority of the time you'll be operating on people on stasis beds and they deliberately changed operating computers to not be compatible with them.

There are also moments where operating computers will tell you the next step but it's not clear how to carry it out (for example, when you have to use your hands instead of a surgical instrument) and you usually don't want to experiment by using your hands on someone because it shakes them up.

When I'm operating on someone on a stasis bed and I don't know what the next step is I usually just try every instrument on them until I start getting a feel for the surgeries and instinctively know what comes next. I don't want to be constantly alt+tabbing to a wiki page to find the next step. So surgery turns into a game of Simon Says, where you try to remember what worked last time you did this particular procedure. You shouldn't need to guess or to consult a wiki page to know how to perform a surgery. The game should hint at it, to help players learn faster.
Pandarsenic wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:47 amDoesn't tell you how to end the surgery but it's pretty good progress from previous iterations of surgery mechanics. That said, there is a huge amount of what I would almost call tribal knowledge, like "Always just cryo people with severe burn infections and NEVER try to fix it with surgery"
It feels like nowadays people tend to hoard information, rather than share knowledge and strategies the way that they used to. Medical knowledge should be given to you by the game for everyone's benefit. Instead of you somehow stumbling into it by yourself or someone else having to clue you in.
Pandarsenic wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:47 am Uh, the problem there is you know how doctors hate relying on science to actually do shit?

Botany is that, but a dozen times worse (also you can't draw blood from a husk). Good luck freeing up one of those shitheads' drug trays to actually get the mutation and the cloning done.
Interdepartmental cooperation is meme. Yeah, you don't want to leave medical to visit another department and try to convince them to help you or at least let you in to do it yourself when they're likely absent or occupied with their own goals. But I'm guessing there are other reasons people don't use replica pod cloning, other than not thinking of it. Probably people don't want to play as plantpeople, or they have some kind of species disadvantage or something.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by BrianBackslide » #620435

I'd happily podclone people if I was ever asked, but it takes a lot more time to get pod seeds now. I don't want to always set aside a tray for mutating a cabbage shiftstart, especially when I'm constantly busy typically. It's not like the old days when we could just dump mutagen on the plant until it mutates.

Personally I think that death is still a slap on the wrist as it is, and that there should be lingering effects after revival that compound with each revival. Like permanently reducing the max organ health or a new class of minor, but permanent traumas.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #620441

BrianBackslide wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:33 am I'd happily podclone people if I was ever asked, but it takes a lot more time to get pod seeds now. I don't want to always set aside a tray for mutating a cabbage shiftstart, especially when I'm constantly busy typically. It's not like the old days when we could just dump mutagen on the plant until it mutates.

Personally I think that death is still a slap on the wrist as it is, and that there should be lingering effects after revival that compound with each revival. Like permanently reducing the max organ health or a new class of minor, but permanent traumas.
This is an unpopular opinion among the "everything should be fixable" crowd but I 100% agree that dying should be serious and difficult to come back from even with tens of minutes spent on surgeries.
- Sincerely itseasytosee
Notgonnabreaktherule wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:18 pm Itseasytosee2me is a person, i think
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by mstachife » #620490

Itseasytosee2me wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:07 am What's the point of all this? What the hell am I arguing? I don't know. It's not like I am making a case for cloning. The big problem is just that defibrillators don't work like that, but mechanically its fine. So maybe you could put some witty flavor text on it about how bullshit it is or something. I don't know.
Still not sure why this considered coding feedback, but uhh, its a defib in the future. Maybe they have the power to correct an irregular heartbeat and restart it through space magic, nanites, or some other maguffin. I never really cared for it despite knowing how they work irl, and there's enough games where this is considered the norm that most people don't seem to have to suspend their disbelief either (battlefield being probably the most notable example).

Also imo any increase in the amount of time it takes to revive people will also decrease the number of dead people it takes for a shuttle call, thus shortening the rounds. I enjoy rounds where we are able to do a recovery, and that would be nigh impossible if reviving took far longer.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #620495

mstachife wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:53 am
Itseasytosee2me wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:07 am What's the point of all this? What the hell am I arguing? I don't know. It's not like I am making a case for cloning. The big problem is just that defibrillators don't work like that, but mechanically its fine. So maybe you could put some witty flavor text on it about how bullshit it is or something. I don't know.
Still not sure why this considered coding feedback, but uhh, its a defib in the future. Maybe they have the power to correct an irregular heartbeat and restart it through space magic, nanites, or some other maguffin. I never really cared for it despite knowing how they work irl, and there's enough games where this is considered the norm that most people don't seem to have to suspend their disbelief either (battlefield being probably the most notable example).

Also imo any increase in the amount of time it takes to revive people will also decrease the number of dead people it takes for a shuttle call, thus shortening the rounds. I enjoy rounds where we are able to do a recovery, and that would be nigh impossible if reviving took far longer.
The radical solution is to not let dead people revive at all.
- Sincerely itseasytosee
Notgonnabreaktherule wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:18 pm Itseasytosee2me is a person, i think
Jonathan Gupta wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:06 am Gupta is and was better then easy, hope easy chokes on a bag of deez.
FantasticFwoosh wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:14 am Don't set your signature to the first thing someone says about you, it doesnt age well.
Omega_DarkPotato wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:03 am easy to see more like queasy to see fuckin gottem
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by mstachife » #620604

Itseasytosee2me wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:43 am The radical solution is to not let dead people revive at all.
Then people will want a respawn shuttle, because sitting in ghost chat isnt fun and otherwise we go home after 40 minutes. Then we ask ourselves why we went through all this trouble instead of just having a method to revive ingame.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #620605

mstachife wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:06 pm
Itseasytosee2me wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:43 am The radical solution is to not let dead people revive at all.
Then people will want a respawn shuttle, because sitting in ghost chat isnt fun and otherwise we go home after 40 minutes. Then we ask ourselves why we went through all this trouble instead of just having a method to revive ingame.
I don't want a respawn shuttle either. That's why I said It was a radical solution. But that's far aside from the point of the thread in general.
- Sincerely itseasytosee
Notgonnabreaktherule wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:18 pm Itseasytosee2me is a person, i think
Jonathan Gupta wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:06 am Gupta is and was better then easy, hope easy chokes on a bag of deez.
FantasticFwoosh wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:14 am Don't set your signature to the first thing someone says about you, it doesnt age well.
Omega_DarkPotato wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:03 am easy to see more like queasy to see fuckin gottem
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by Rohen_Tahir » #620678

Itseasytosee2me wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:43 am
mstachife wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:53 am
Itseasytosee2me wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:07 am What's the point of all this? What the hell am I arguing? I don't know. It's not like I am making a case for cloning. The big problem is just that defibrillators don't work like that, but mechanically its fine. So maybe you could put some witty flavor text on it about how bullshit it is or something. I don't know.
Still not sure why this considered coding feedback, but uhh, its a defib in the future. Maybe they have the power to correct an irregular heartbeat and restart it through space magic, nanites, or some other maguffin. I never really cared for it despite knowing how they work irl, and there's enough games where this is considered the norm that most people don't seem to have to suspend their disbelief either (battlefield being probably the most notable example).

Also imo any increase in the amount of time it takes to revive people will also decrease the number of dead people it takes for a shuttle call, thus shortening the rounds. I enjoy rounds where we are able to do a recovery, and that would be nigh impossible if reviving took far longer.
The radical solution is to not let dead people revive at all.
The far-pain solution is to make revival consume anomaly cores.
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Re: A short rant on why medical resurrection in ss13 makes no god damn sense.

Post by Pandarsenic » #620696

careful, coders might actually do that because of the belief that interdepartmental dependency is good
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