[POLL] re-add trekchems with downsides

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:45 pm #64928

the 4 flagship trekchems will only come back under these conditions:
they have overdosing effects
they have addiction effects
they have downsides

this puts them in line with the other chems

potential:
maybe locked to a special r&d beaker

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:49 pm

Voted no because "flagship trekchems with overdosing effects, downsides, and addictions" is pretty much just saying "I will make the current chemicals apply on ingestion".

AnonymousNow · Post by **AnonymousNow** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:51 pm #64936

Make them the beginners' chemicals.

Easy to make. Relatively difficult to overdose on. Relatively difficult to get addicted to.

But also weak. Good for surface scratches, or if you have small amounts of damage on multiple limbs, but if you need any significant healing beyond that you'll need either a doctor or a more potent and complicated medicine and/or mixture.

There. Done. Fixed.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:15 pm #64940

Dont really see the point. Whats the current issue with healing? I thought it was all fine. If there is a problem, just re-add Bruise Packs and Ointment to Medkits.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:16 pm #64941

Alex Crimson wrote:Dont really see the point. Whats the current issue with healing? I thought it was all fine. If there is a problem, just re-add Bruise Packs and Ointment to Medkits.

paprika has you covered there

Alex Crimson · Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:11 pm

iamgoofball wrote:
Alex Crimson wrote:Dont really see the point. Whats the current issue with healing? I thought it was all fine. If there is a problem, just re-add Bruise Packs and Ointment to Medkits.
paprika has you covered there

Yeah, buried in a Bleeding mechanic PR that has over 100 comments and still isnt merged/closed.

But really, has there been any reason to re-add the old chems now?

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 7:50 am #65094

Yeah, the overwhelming majority.

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:14 pm #65373

DemonFiren wrote:Yeah, the overwhelming majority.

Except not on this poll.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:18 pm #65374

That's because this poll is
Yes: Bring 4 old chems back, only goonified
or
No: Don't bring them back at all.

soulgamer · Post by **soulgamer** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:50 pm #65379

Voted no because I would rather not have the old chems back then have them back and be fucking useless.

Babin · Post by **Babin** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:23 am #65443

Cipher3 wrote:
DemonFiren wrote:Yeah, the overwhelming majority.
Except not on this poll.

This poll is asking for people to choose which poison they want to swallow.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:45 am #65447

It doesn't matter what you name them, honestly, I'd rather not have trekchem if we're stuck with this stupid system.

WeeYakk · Post by **WeeYakk** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:59 am #65451

Where's the bring them back without downsides option?

Raven776 · Post by **Raven776** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:14 am #65453

One of these days I'll invest the time to learn how the new chem system works. As there's no wiki that I can easily find, it won't be this day.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:44 am #65458

Raven776 wrote:One of these days I'll invest the time to learn how the new chem system works. As there's no wiki that I can easily find, it won't be this day.

Are you fucking retarded? There is a fucking wiki button on the main page of tgstation13.org

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:43 am #65482

There's like 15 fucking polls about this already that all lead to the same thing.

Stop making polls that aren't going to mean shit because nobody will act on them anyway.

specyalic · Post by **specyalic** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:23 am #65493

if only there was someway we could make people listen

Deantwo · Post by **Deantwo** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:36 am #65508

Bombadil wrote:
Raven776 wrote:One of these days I'll invest the time to learn how the new chem system works. As there's no wiki that I can easily find, it won't be this day.
Are you fucking retarded? There is a fucking wiki button on the main page of tgstation13.org

Yeah I am tired of people using this as an excuse!
There is even a button ingame that opens the freaking wiki.

And clearly no one has even looked at the wiki recently because I (and others) did indeed update it with the new chemicals:
https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Guide_to_medicine
https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Guide_to_chemistry

With that said, this poll is useless.
It can't be answered with just a yes or no.

I can see overdosing is a way to balance the "just pump 1000 units of super chemicals into me and i can't die lol".
But you didn't even mention or hint at that that is the reason you wanna do that.
So many of the polls I see on the chemistry topic are so binary that it's not even funny.
EXPLAIN your reasoning so people that don't follow you all over the internet actually know what your trying to do and why.

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:53 am #65521

But this is actually an issue where is canbe binary. Many, many people DO NOT WANT goonchem. It is not explicitly one part of it that they would like changed, it is the overall system, which was built for, and designed with goonstation in mind.

Deantwo · Post by **Deantwo** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:04 pm #65523

lumipharon wrote:But this is actually an issue where is canbe binary. Many, many people DO NOT WANT goonchem. It is not explicitly one part of it that they would like changed, it is the overall system, which was built for, and designed with goonstation in mind.

Yeah, but no matter rather we keep the GoonChem changes or not, we will still be working on making it our own system.
Question is, how much of the code need to be scraped and how much can be re-used. Which is why I made a poll to try and find the issue.

I am sure that if the work "GoonChem" has never been used, few people would be complaining.
And from my poll it seems that people most of all don't like that the names of the chemicals changed.

Anyway, going to go change my poll a little I think.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:51 pm #65549

WeeYakk wrote:Where's the bring them back without downsides option?

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:20 pm #65590

Deantwo wrote:
lumipharon wrote:But this is actually an issue where is canbe binary. Many, many people DO NOT WANT goonchem. It is not explicitly one part of it that they would like changed, it is the overall system, which was built for, and designed with goonstation in mind.
Yeah, but no matter rather we keep the GoonChem changes or not, we will still be working on making it our own system.

Are you actually saying goonchem will not be reverted no matter what?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:26 pm #65593

Coderbus has said that they will (from what I've read) not accept a revert of Goon Chem.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:28 pm #65594

I should say its a very controversial change and "some" headcoders have stated that they don't want it reverted, but some do.

Essentially its a clusterfuck with no one taking leadership of the situation and everyone is essentially just rolling with it.

Deantwo · Post by **Deantwo** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:13 pm #65640

dezzmont wrote:
Deantwo wrote:
lumipharon wrote:But this is actually an issue where is canbe binary. Many, many people DO NOT WANT goonchem. It is not explicitly one part of it that they would like changed, it is the overall system, which was built for, and designed with goonstation in mind.
Yeah, but no matter rather we keep the GoonChem changes or not, we will still be working on making it our own system.
Are you actually saying goonchem will not be reverted no matter what?

I don't speak for anyone on coderbus, I just don't want to see the code go to waste.
Guess I fear what Paprka was trying to do, a mega revert PullRequest that breaks more than it fixes.

Some of the changes could be changed back to how it was before maybe, but I don't think we will see a total revert of everything done over the last month.

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:21 am #65791

Deantwo wrote: Guess I fear what Paprka was trying to do, a mega revert PullRequest that breaks more than it fixes.

I hope you realize how much this damages coder-player relations.

"We can't revert this! It is too early to see what will happen!" really rings hollow when a month later we get "We can't revert this! It will break things because it has been around too long."

I get that it isn't your primary reason for opposing a revert, I really honestly do, but just as a bit of a tip, this shouldn't even be part of the argument if the primary argument against a revert was "It needs time for people to like it."

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:15 am #65799

Coderbase: We'll give you what you want but we will fuck you up the ass with a tree stump. That makes everything better right?

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:29 am #65833

this isnt even giving us what we want its just a horrible, thinly veiled attempt at making people shut up about reverting goonchem
when paprika already made a pr reverting it before (which was closed to be polled again)
which really is the best option imo, goonchem is a huge mess and its only being backed by two highly biased people

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:37 pm #65907

I will not be satisfied with this thinly veiled attempt to pacify the playerbase you hsould of just mixed goon chems and regular chems together to add more gameplay elements rather than swiftly and quickly change the game

Allohsnackbar · Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:45 pm

Voted No, because there is no "Revert Goonchem entirely option"

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:34 pm #66082

how about just bring back tgchem alongside goonchem :^)
like you should have kept in the fucking first place :^^^)))))

OliveOil · Post by **OliveOil** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:07 pm #68216

I don't understand why goonchem hasn't been reverted yet. There's been massive backlash everywhere and only a handful of people are insistent on it.
As for the poll: if you're gonna bring the chems back, bring them the way they were.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:47 pm #68225

Because coderbus is seperate from tgstation and entirely unaccountable.

Nothing short of direct intervention by scaredy or insane devotion from a headmin will change this relationship and that will likely never happen

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:50 pm #68227

Another reason for us to switch to Ba...no, nevermind.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:51 pm #68228

Stickymayhem wrote:Because coderbus is seperate from tgstation and entirely unaccountable.

Is this the meme of the week? The code being unrelated to the game?

Deantwo · Post by **Deantwo** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:57 pm #68231

This thread (and poll) was started very poorly explained.
So this thread should probably just be locked.

OliveOil · Post by **OliveOil** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:59 pm #68232

Just like goonchem, amirite :^)

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:01 pm #68234

OliveOil wrote:Just like goonchem, amirite :^)

Sick burn.

On topic I think a interesting course of action would be for someone to put up a revert PR and see how the maintainers react, its clear that Goon Chem is one of the most heavily disliked changes to the game in a very long time, I have to wonder if the maintainers are willing aggravate the player base even more by denying it being reverted.

Deantwo · Post by **Deantwo** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:03 pm #68238

OliveOil wrote:Just like goonchem, amirite :^)

Let me redirect you.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2806
Since I don't believe that anyone really hates all of the new chemistry changes.

If you don't want the game to ever change, your playing the wrong game or should just set your own server with an older (and never changing) version.

Not-Dorsidarf · Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:04 pm

Even the Maintainer's Messiah couldn't revert goonchem.
https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/7515

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:06 pm #68241

Deantwo wrote:
OliveOil wrote:Just like goonchem, amirite :^)
Let me redirect you.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2806
Since I don't believe that anyone really hates all of the new chemistry changes.

If you don't want the game to ever change, your playing the wrong game or should just set your own server with an older (and never changing) version.

That is a worse poll than this threads poll. Always use the ideology of KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid. Having 13 different poll options, of which you can vote multiple times, is unreliable and ineffective.

Not to mention that the options with the largest votes are against the changes (Removeal of BruisePacks/Ointment, Goon Chem overall, Copying Goon, etc)

Not-Dorsidarf · Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:08 pm

I reiterate my point - If Paprika, with two landslide pro-removal polls as evidence, couldn't get goonchem removed and prompted a response from hg that "We're not removing goonchem", then it's simply not going to happen.

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:21 pm #68250

Deantwo wrote:This thread (and poll) was started very poorly explained.
So this thread should probably just be locked.

Or maybe don't lock threads because you are upset people are pointing out this is a false dichotomy.

The feedback in the thread is valid, people don't like either option and are shoving in your face that they think presenting this as an either or issue while deliberately leaving out what they want is a sleazy move. It may be unpleasant but it is a completely valid and fair response to this thread.

OliveOil · Post by **OliveOil** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:56 pm #68259

Deantwo wrote:
OliveOil wrote:Just like goonchem, amirite :^)
If you don't want the game to ever change, your playing the wrong game or should just set your own server with an older (and never changing) version.

You can do better than this... I never said anything about changes in general.
This change, this particular one, was poorly done.
And adding ole chems (and even then, different) and pretending that it will fix anything is silly.
You can make dozens more polls, but it's not like you don't know why people dislike goonchem and what would be the best course of action.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:04 pm #68262

Saegrimr wrote:
Stickymayhem wrote:Because coderbus is seperate from tgstation and entirely unaccountable.
Is this the meme of the week? The code being unrelated to the game?

This has always been the case. Officially coderbus is unaccountable and separate. I'm not saying it isn't retarded, I'm saying this is what their total power over the game is based in.

As I've said multiple times I'm pretty much apathetic at this point.

Deantwo · Post by **Deantwo** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:29 pm #68266

OliveOil wrote:And adding ole chems (and even then, different) and pretending that it will fix anything is silly.

I don't care about this poll, as it was never clearly stated what was actually gonna be added and changed.
And I don't see a reason to re-add the chems anyway.

OliveOil wrote:You can make dozens more polls, but it's not like you don't know why people dislike goonchem and what would be the best course of action.

I am slow and dyslexic. That along with the fact people having different opinions about it doesn't make it easy.

Everything I have read suggests that people just don't like change, or the fact that it resembles what is on GoonStation.
I have never played on GoonStation, so I really could care less about that.

A few seemed to say that they miss the task of targeting limbs with healing, and some seem to just miss the instant healing.
Most people seem to just be annoyed with the names of chemicals changes, meaning they don't wanna re-learn it all.

But what is this best course of action you speak of? (Don't say "revert it")

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:35 pm #68267

Deantwo wrote:
OliveOil wrote:And adding ole chems (and even then, different) and pretending that it will fix anything is silly.
I don't care about this poll, as it was never clearly stated what was actually gonna be added and changed.
And I don't see a reason to re-add the chems anyway.

OliveOil wrote:You can make dozens more polls, but it's not like you don't know why people dislike goonchem and what would be the best course of action.
I am slow and dyslexic. That along with the fact people having different opinions about it doesn't make it easy.

Everything I have read suggests that people just don't like change, or the fact that it resembles what is on GoonStation.
I have never played on GoonStation, so I really could care less about that.

A few seemed to say that they miss the task of targeting limbs with healing, and some seem to just miss the instant healing.

But what is this best course of action you speak of? (Don't say revert it)

You don't care about this poll because people have refused to buy into your false dichotomy.

You don't see a reason to re-add chems? People have given plenty of reasons. And at the end of the day it is super fucked up that you feel your desires trump everyone else's.

I am dyslexic as well but I know that your polls have consistently been deceptive. I managed to read the forums and evaluate the feedback. If you are saying you are slow then you shouldn't be allowed to do what you are doing. If you can't gather data stop trying and hand it off to someone who has taken the time and energy to read through it. If you admit you are incapable playing the sympathy card just makes you look like an idiot.

What you have read is that the change has been nearly universally panned as being really poorly thought out with very unclear design goals that just serves to make everything more frustrating and less intuitive. Pretending the logic hasn't been layed out in front of you doesn't make everyone forget they explained it to you.

The best course of action is to revert it. Sorry. I said it. The fact you don't want to hear it doesn't make it untrue. And saying that we can't say it even though it has never really been defended as a design choice makes you look like a toolbag.

Deantwo · Post by **Deantwo** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:52 pm #68269

dezzmont wrote:You don't see a reason to re-add chems? People have given plenty of reasons. And at the end of the day it is super fucked up that you feel your desires trump everyone else's.

Not really my area to decide on. But yeah, as the poll says, people don't want them anyway, right?
But iamgoodball's opening post didn't clearly state why he wanted to add downsides to the chems, which is why I think people voted no.
Whatever.

dezzmont wrote:What you have read is that the change has been nearly universally panned as being really poorly thought out with very unclear design goals that just serves to make everything more frustrating and less intuitive. Pretending the logic hasn't been layed out in front of you doesn't make everyone forget they explained it to you.

This game doesn't have any design goals, it runs by a "that's seems cool" kinda thing where the headmins have final say, as far as I understand anyway.
So are you still talking to me or to all the coders?

dezzmont wrote:The best course of action is to revert it. Sorry. I said it. The fact you don't want to hear it doesn't make it untrue. And saying that we can't say it even though it has never really been defended as a design choice makes you look like a toolbag.

It's been said that it won't be reverted. So saying that the best cause of action is to revert it is pointless.

OliveOil · Post by **OliveOil** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:03 pm #68272

Deantwo wrote: I am slow and dyslexic. That along with the fact people having different opinions about it doesn't make it easy.

Everything I have read suggests that people just don't like change, or the fact that it resembles what is on GoonStation.
I have never played on GoonStation, so I really could care less about that.

Suggests? Well, you haven't been reading the complaints then. It can be summarized as "I don't like it", rather than "I don't like change".

Deantwo wrote:
But what is this best course of action you speak of? (Don't say "revert it")

You just said it :^)
Seriously though, it's something that should have been discussed a lot more before being implanted.
And when it was live, we were told it'd just be for a while, that we could always revert if it was broken or no one liked it.
Yet here we are.

Deantwo · Post by **Deantwo** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:11 pm #68273

OliveOil wrote:Suggests? Well, you haven't been reading the complaints then. It can be summarized as "I don't like it", rather than "I don't like change".

"I don't like it, because it changes stuff"?

OliveOil wrote:You just said it :^)
Seriously though, it's something that should have been discussed a lot more before being implanted.
And when it was live, we were told it'd just be for a while, that we could always revert if it was broken or no one liked it.
Yet here we are.

Deantwo wrote:It's been said that it won't be reverted. So saying that the best cause of action is to revert it is pointless.

That is the reason I said not to say that the best cause of action is to revert it.

Also:

Code: Select all

if(!broken && number_of_people_who_like_it > 0)
    revert = 0
else
    revert = 1

Have to go buy 6 loafs of bread now.