Proposed Crit Changes Feedback/Discussion

[Scones]

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/8749

Discuss this. What are the pros/cons you see in this system? Would you be interested in seeing it? What are some major concerns you have with it?

Try to keep it civil.

[MisterPerson]

What's the plan for relating all this information to the player ingame?

[LNGLY]

Please no. This makes it even more impossible to kill anyone. No more carebearstation changes. People already get found in crit all the time, if you die off on your own with nobody nearby it shouldn't let you get back up and walk around.

[IcePacks]

dying isn't supposed to be fun

for all intents and purposes you should've wrote "makes killing people less fun" instead

don't do it

[ThatSlyFox]

From the pull:
When you go into crit, you start taking 2 oxygen damage a tick, start stuttering, and roll for 4 potential things to happen.

This hints that you can talk while in crit. No, we don't need this.

[oranges]

I'm opposed to this on the basis that a lot of stuff in the game is balanced around how long it takes to crit someone, changes to that can affect the entire system.

I respect that you don't think crit is a fun mechanic, perhaps remove the blindness part of crit, and leave it as a stun/mute. That way you can at least view/hear what is going on instead of being in black.

Perhaps a deafness that switches on and off to simulate you fading in and out of conciousness

[PKPenguin321]

this is a bad idea imo
throws our current standings of balance out the window on a massive scale (think "goonchem when it first came out"-levels of unbalanced, then multiply that by it applying to every single time you take damage)
makes murdering people pretty much impossible as you have to put them into crit then wait for RNG to kill them (and they can walk around and call for help and murder you in the meantime)
makes dying bizarre, confusing and unpleasant, then makes it so if you survive you're fucked up with loads of (now lethal) brain damage

upsides? "u dont hav 2 luk at a blak skreen wen u dying"

no thank you

[MisterPerson]

I think it would be more than interesting enough if you could see more while in crit, you were constantly lying, you can move but only very slowly, you can't talk, and you have no use of your hands whatsoever. You could attempt to crawl to safety/medbay but you don't have a chance to fight, heal yourself, or do much of anything useful really.

Either way the only part I don't like is how unpredictable it sounds like the amount of time you'll be in crit will wind up being. I'm not saying I want an exact countdown or anything, but I would like to know if I'm 5 seconds away from death or if I've got some time. And as a player I'd like to know about how long crit will last on average.

[Allohsnackbar]

Completely reworks the gamebalance needlessly, and an inferior proposal to the current system.

[Incomptinence]

Screw being able to see anything while in crit. We have succumbing for scum like you. These changes also applied to sleeping and blinded people it is nonsense that gave us shit like a blind man needing lights on to find his way WITHOUT EYES.

You fools say you want out of stun combat then you make killing people even more unwieldy, coming soon stun remove headset space in welded locker the only play style good bloody job.

I think a burning room full of gibbering walking corpses might end up being a worse experience than original black screen. Good work overcoming deprivation with sheer random teasing fuckery.

[lumipharon]

Why is dying supposed to be fun?
It's like giving people participation medals, fuck that.

Crit means you're literally unconscious and no longer breathing, why should you be able to see or hear?

This also utterly assfucks the balance of everything damage related, which is a huge assload of stuff.
Stop making tg goon.

[Stickymayhem]

I think this is the opposite direction we want to be going in.

More options to return to the game are fine, but thrusting an undertested, unwanted and unintuitive system over an extremely simple one that most of the game is balanced around is just a terrible idea.

[TheNightingale]

You don't "stare at a black screen for 10 minutes" (iamgoofball in the PR). You stare at a black screen for a few seconds, then wait for your killer to come back and whisper your last words.
Or you succumb, but that's less fun.

You only stare at a black screen for {however long it takes for the oxyloss and/or bleeding to kill you} if you really, really, really want someone to heal you instead of defib you (read: if you have an explosive implant).

As a regular MD/EMT, making brain damage more common is Not A Good Thing. We already have to carry around treatment for the three main damages (brute, burn, toxin), plus gauze, a health analyzer, a portable crew monitor...
Really. Typical medical belt:
Gauze - Syringe - Antitox bottle - Synthflesh patch bottle - Silver sulf patch bottle - Styptic patch bottle - Crew monitor
With the health analyzer on your labcoat.

(Also, MDs like patients who succumb before they get out of defib range. Do it as soon as you reach -120 from an esword and we'll defib, brute patch and love you forever.)

The aim of making crit fun for the dying is admirable, but RNG isn't the way to do that. Maybe just make it so you can whisper twice before dying?

[Jacquerel]

If it restricts people to crawling, restricts items, and restricts their ability to talk, so you're able to try and save yourself but little else, I'd actually be very happy with this.
More interesting than current mechanics.

Once someone is crit they should not be able to apply medicine to themselves, hit their attacker with anything other than fists, or radio for help... but if people could try and crawl away from a hull breach or explosion or carp attack (if not to medbay then at least to somewhere they are more likely to be found) then it would be great.

Maybe death should be tied to bloodloss rather than brain damage though.

[AdenAbrafo]

I''ve explained why this is a bad idea before and I'm too tired to do it again but basically these sum it up.

I'm opposed to this on the basis that a lot of stuff in the game is balanced around how long it takes to crit someone, changes to that can affect the entire system.

I respect that you don't think crit is a fun mechanic, perhaps remove the blindness part of crit, and leave it as a stun/mute. That way you can at least view/hear what is going on instead of being in black.

Perhaps a deafness that switches on and off to simulate you fading in and out of conciousness

Please no. This makes it even more impossible to kill anyone. No more carebearstation changes. People already get found in crit all the time, if you die off on your own with nobody nearby it shouldn't let you get back up and walk around.

From the pull:
When you go into crit, you start taking 2 oxygen damage a tick, start stuttering, and roll for 4 potential things to happen.

This hints that you can talk while in crit. No, we don't need this.

Since I'm assuming this is basically just a port of gooncrit with a few changes I have to ask, did you even bother to make sure that people in crit can't talk with radios either? That's a pretty important part of it and if you didn't even bother to make sure that was a part of it before you set up the pull request then it shouldn't even consider being merged.
Not to mention that you didn't even say if you tested this or not. Any changes you make need to be tested, history proves this and if you try to get stuff merged without testing it's lazy and bad coding on your part.

[Steelpoint]

I'm not against a change to our critical system, but I do think it not only needs a extensive design document, and a clear direction on how it should work, but it also needs extensive testing.

I'm not satisfied that either of those requirements have been fulfilled with this PR.

[iamgoofball]

it's not like there's a big ass DNM on the pr for nothing

Aden, I threw up the pull request to get some feedback on the general idea of crit not being "stuck in 1 place/succumb".

people shouldn't be able to talk during crit, i'm currently working out with saycode how to accomplish this not-shittily and without making miauw kill me in my sleep

i'm loving the idea of crawling you guys brought up and I'll definitely look into it

design documents aren't the answer to everything steelpoint

extensive testing in high pop nuke rounds are planned

i'm currently looking into disabling your hand slots for the period of crit so you can crawl around and shit but no shoving a laser gun down the guy attacking you's throat

[TheNightingale]

Actually, the idea of someone in crit pulling out their pistol and firing a single shot at their attacker before slumping to the floor and dying is quite interesting.
Or someone who's just been shot four times; as they die, they press their remote signaller, detonating the bombs hidden around the station.
Maybe this: in critical, you take oxyloss (and brute, if bleeding) as normal. You can do the following things:
Pick up and use one small or tiny item. This causes you to die, no ifs, no buts. (So if you dropped your stetchkin below you, pick it up and shoot once, then die. You can't do this with a normal-sized revolver or a bulky-sized laser cannon, of course.)
... this includes medical items, but you die after you used it, so too bad.
Whisper twice. This causes you to die. You can't whisper into radios, remember.
Crawl. This causes your oxyloss (+losebreath) and bloodloss to speed up dramatically.

Don't do the brainloss thing, don't do the RNG thing.
I don't think brute damage is capped at 100, by the way. I've seen people who died in space with -a lot- more than 100.

[Poorman]

This isn't an interesting or good change that will be beneficial to the server.

This is importing a system from goon because *I think it's cool we should have this*

That's all Goof does, and it's gotten half the server upset.

We want our own systems and mechanics, not this crap that we could go experience on other servers.

Goof, if you're so fucking dead set on importing things from Goon, why don't you just go rip off their VR game world and add something that's mildly interesting to the game. Then I can at least pretend I'm playing Mario Kart, a game that's fun.

[iamgoofball]

This isn't an interesting or good change that will be beneficial to the server.

This is importing a system from goon because *I think it's cool we should have this*

That's all Goof does, and it's gotten half the server upset.

We want our own systems and mechanics, not this crap that we could go experience on other servers.

Goof, if you're so fucking dead set on importing things from Goon, why don't you just go rip off their VR game world and add something that's mildly interesting to the game. Then I can at least pretend I'm playing Mario Kart, a game that's fun.

~~this PR's been closed for ages because of player feedback saying it's shit~~

When will you come up with "your own systems and mechanics"? "make it better" isn't a design doc. We have no idea what your version of "better" is. You need to elaborate on "better". Coders need specifics to work with.

Also, if the game's not fun anymore, why do you still play it?

[Not-Dorsidarf]

^ Ad Homenim attack.

On another note - Just because I dislike Goonball at the molecular level and wish he'd stop doesn't mean that everything he ports is bad. I like the idea behind this.

[Erbbu]

Dying in SS13 really sucks, so I am all for buffing crit or bringing more ways for players to get back into the round.