Da Ebow

[XDTM]

Bottom post of the previous page:

By metashield i meant more metabreaking to prevent instavaliding once you see [traitor-only item] in someone's pocket. I might've misunderstood the term though.

[InsaneHyena]

The rabbit is speaking the truth - the day we ban murderboning is the day /tg/ changes entirely. Not necessarily for the worse, but it will change everything.

[Qbopper]

Yeah, it's a pretty radical change and isn't likely to happen because of that

I disagree with Kor in that I think we can encourage non-murderbone play with more interesting stuff, but I will agree that there's only so much you can do with code

[Gun Hog]

I personally feel that our antagonist rules are fine the way they are. I myself am a fan of mass destruction (explosions, singulo, plasma flood, etc) and antagonists that draw the attention of the entire crew (WarOps, blob, certain Wizard spells, etc). A Traitor that kills only his target or stealthily steals an item is uninteresting to me.

Now, that being said, an antag after my unique item may attempt to bargain (or threaten) with me instead. That kind of interaction is often loads of fun! But, if that antag DOES kill me for my item, I would want him to use it to kill more people instead of going into hiding until the shuttle is called.

[IcePacks]

this is more an issues with stuns than anything else

let's just throw stamina damage at it and hope that the stunstacks don't get worse!

[Doctor Pork]

danno is right shadow is le meme

plz fix bad item

[Qbopper]

this is more an issues with stuns than anything else

probably true, stun and done combat is an issue imo but I don't know a good way to solve it and it's been discussed before

[cedarbridge]

If we banned murderbone, we'd have to ban validhunting. It's not fair on the antags if they can't murderbone while they have a lynch mob armed with stunprods after them.

If the lynch mob comes knocking and the traitor whips out his murder boner to kill them all that's fine and all. Banning them for that would be stupid. If they just do the same ebow/esword or dual esword shit every time they roll traitor just so they can disregard their objectives and immediately try to murder the crew, especially on low pop then fuck yeah, antag ban them.

There's already precedent for doing this with outstanding permabans to match. These are, to my knowledge, exclusive to lowpop, constant recall then camp the new arrivals style cancer though.

[Steelpoint]

I would take a ebow over any Taser or Egun any day of the week.

The only issue I see here is how powerful stuns are. Why would veteran players bother wasting 12tcs on a ebow when they can get a bottle of spray cleaner and water for free, then spend the rest of the tcs on adrenals or a Revolver.

At the end of the day, a stun + any item that deals damage is better than 90% of the actual weapons we have in game.

If anything else, I would support removing or reworking the ebow. I can accept people dying to eswords and revolvers since they are loud, have a critical drawback (ammo or melee) and need more than one hit to kill. But the ebow is silent, has no real drawback and one hit is a instant stun, which is GG in SS13.

[InsaneHyena]

Because slips are pretty bad now.

If anything else, I support removing realiable range stun from traitors - it should only be allowed for security.

Surprising absolutely no one.

[DemonFiren]

Because slips are pretty bad now.

If anything else, I support removing realiable range stun from traitors - it should only be allowed for security.

Surprising absolutely no one.

Spoiler:

first kek of the day
seriously steelpoint, not even subtle

[Steelpoint]

I said I support removing or reworking the Ebow.

My position on stun is clear, I dislike them in general. Outside of a melee stun weapon I really would enjoy it if we reworked our stun system to be less rigid and more flexible and better open to counterplay and riposte.

[Dr_bee]

I wonder why traitors even get access to more powerful weapons in the first place. why not simply have the TCs be used to send them bog-standard equipment that can be ordered from cargo? it would give traitors a bit more of an alibi and remove the "traitor gear = Valid" idea security tends to have.
Plus it would power down the mass murder ability of traitors.

If TCs were simply used for easier access to weapons that you could otherwise steal it would make balancing them a bit easier and would encourage a bit more creative play.

on the subject of the e-bow, you can always go the gooncode route and make it a ranged weapon that just deals toxin damage. Theirs actually irradiates those hit by it, but because /tg/ radiation stuns, it wouldnt really remove the "cheap easy ranged stun" aspect of the e-bow if it used /tg/rads

[Steelpoint]

I would be wary of adopting Goon's combat system in piecemeal, I don't think individual parts would work in isolation without the rest of the system.

Your talking about the combat system where Laser and projectile weapons can kill in two rounds, where even the weakest armour offers very high defence from attacks, of note that armour is far more complicated in practice, with each armour having different defence thresholds that interact differently with different kinds of attacks, and certain weapons (alt bullet types) can have a more devastating effect against armour, such as armour piercing rounds that ruin armour in a few hits. Where stuns are rare and are very rarely a one hit stun, and where actually killing someone outside of executing them with a gun is very hard to do.

[PKPenguin321]

The rabbit is speaking the truth - the day we ban murderboning is the day /tg/ changes entirely. Not necessarily for the worse, but it will change everything.

There was a no murderbone policy trialed way back that was a disaster. It was so bad it inspired me to come to the forums to voice my feedback (and pretty much lead to me sticking around in the community). Please don't try pushing it again, I will not allow it.

[captain sawrge]

I will not allow it.

lol

[XDTM]

The rabbit is speaking the truth - the day we ban murderboning is the day /tg/ changes entirely. Not necessarily for the worse, but it will change everything.

There was a no murderbone policy trialed way back that was a disaster. It was so bad it inspired me to come to the forums to voice my feedback (and pretty much lead to me sticking around in the community). Please don't try pushing it again, I will not allow it.

What went wrong with it?

[ShadowDimentio]

It incentivizes admins to harass players.

[Doctor Pork]

so are we fixing the ebow to be less of a piece of shit or no

[Kel]

What even constitutes murderbone? Outside of the obvious round start, weapons bought, kill everything in sight, there are so many ways this game could play out that basically any traitor would be forced to devolve into murderbone or just roll over and die.

>traitor has to steal the CE's magboots
>CE has only been drinking in the bar with 3 other people all round
>no chance he's leaving any time soon

What do you do? Slaughter him and all the witnesses in the bar? What if someone gets away and now the entire station is after you? Public enemy number one, you will no doubt be tracked by the AI and your location reported by anyone who gets a chance to see you and speak. You would have to kill basically anyone who comes across unless you want to put yourself in peril of being caught by the lynch mob.

Perhaps you detonate an explosive, to distract the CE or to just to kill them. You could either explode a completely vacant area, risking the CE not even going to repair it. Alternately, you explode a important area like medbay, which would force the CE to actually do their job, but the casualties of blowing up medbay could easily be spun into a tale of murderbone.

It all seems completely subjective, outside of pacifism or killing only your objective holder, anything a traitor does could easily be explained as a means for the end objective(no witnesses), or just mindless murderboning.
Something as set and stone as a rigid kill limit would kill alot of potential creativity, and worse, could back traitors into corners of being too scared to kill anyone so they dont spark a chain reaction, or they are just forced to give up on the round because they already hit their threshold.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Its gotten worse over time.

Before people used to throw syndie handheld explosives/C4 at people to gib them out of the round for murderbone or space them, but now you can effectively remove every chance of a revive by slaying them with a esword, decapitating them and then removing the brain easily. I've easily seen 1 traitor put the entire crew through the incinerator in a massive murderbone spree.

- Without strange reagent, the only option with a disembodied brain & a body that goes past the living limit for a defib is that first you have to sow the head back on (or use a prosthetic replacement) just to clone the body which takes a additional 5 minutes, and is power/machinery reliant. It removes them out of the round using only a edged weapon tool, rather than delicate surgery, infact roboticists prefer to hack the heads off people & saw brains out because its QUICKER.

Removing someone out of the round for the sake (rather than actually being a obstacle to your objective or threat) of removing them out of the round and chasing everyone down around the station for the purpose of killing them all is murderboning.

[PKPenguin321]

oh and on the topic of the ebow: i think it's not so bad by itself, but stacking it with destroying comms and picking off people one at a time is kinda lame. if you have more than one person, it's not impossible to take out a guy with an ebow, but if they get an EMP flashlight or whatever and play so they avoid conflict with more than one guy at a time the crew's fucked (and they wont even realize it until it's too late). i'm not sure there's any real way to fix this

[FantasticFwoosh]

Stun weapons were a mistake, whether its a stolen taser or a E-bow that causes you to collapse they are too cheap.

- Why can't tasers be re-worked to make you stand up but instead paralyze your body, your hands release and you shake briefly but keep

The fact that people fall on their backs into such a area of vulnerability is a problem. I think falling on your ass in response to weapons is definitely wrong unless you're falling into critical health, its unfun to be stunlocked on your ass while people fumble with you.

[Qbopper]

What even constitutes murderbone? Outside of the obvious round start, weapons bought, kill everything in sight, there are so many ways this game could play out that basically any traitor would be forced to devolve into murderbone or just roll over and die.

your first sentence is what i've always considered murderboning, if you end up getting caught then things are different

Going all out lol ecks dee kill everyone from the start is the main issue imo

[onleavedontatme]

The rabbit is speaking the truth - the day we ban murderboning is the day /tg/ changes entirely. Not necessarily for the worse, but it will change everything.

There was a no murderbone policy trialed way back that was a disaster. It was so bad it inspired me to come to the forums to voice my feedback (and pretty much lead to me sticking around in the community). Please don't try pushing it again, I will not allow it.

Should probably be paying a bit closer attention to the attitudes of the admins you've been promoting then, many of the newer admins skew anti violence in general, whether murder sprees or IC crime.

[PKPenguin321]

The rabbit is speaking the truth - the day we ban murderboning is the day /tg/ changes entirely. Not necessarily for the worse, but it will change everything.

There was a no murderbone policy trialed way back that was a disaster. It was so bad it inspired me to come to the forums to voice my feedback (and pretty much lead to me sticking around in the community). Please don't try pushing it again, I will not allow it.

Should probably be paying a bit closer attention to the attitudes of the admins you've been promoting then, many of the newer admins skew anti violence in general, whether murder sprees or IC crime.

I'm aware of this, but notice that I'm only one of three headmins

I gotta make more alts

[Qbopper]

Just because some admins dislike things like random low effort (key words right there) murderboning doesn't mean they can't recognize that a 'no murderboning' policy won't work, though

You can encourage gameplay in one direction without resorting to hard rules

[XDTM]

I still feel that removing the roundstart superior-to-every-alternative weapons will curb roundstart murderboning, if nothing else because the wannabe murderers have to find a weapon first. Murderboning with a non-standard weapon can be fun, and a murderboner later in the round can give bored people something to aim at while they're generally better prepared; the kind that's very rarely fun is the roundstart ebow esword, or double esword + noslips, or revolver, which is easy for the traitor but unfun for victims and observers. Even for newbies, i think it'd be nicer if the equipment didn't encourage deathmatch as a gameplay.

[cedarbridge]

I still feel that removing the roundstart superior-to-every-alternative weapons will curb roundstart murderboning, if nothing else because the wannabe murderers have to find a weapon first. Murderboning with a non-standard weapon can be fun, and a murderboner later in the round can give bored people something to aim at while they're generally better prepared; the kind that's very rarely fun is the roundstart ebow esword, or double esword + noslips, or revolver, which is easy for the traitor but unfun for victims and observers. Even for newbies, i think it'd be nicer if the equipment didn't encourage deathmatch as a gameplay.

I'm probably in the minority, but I'm ok with certain weapons on the roster that are "superior-to-every-alternative" like the Revolver. I'm ok wtih that one because generally speaking its a finite resource. You aren't going to be able to infinitely fight off the station with a revolver because eventually your ammo runs out. It gives you a leg up in lethality, but its quite loud and nobody picks up shell casings so it leave evidence beyond just the bloodtrail of your victim.

What tends to produce murderboning on large scales are weapons like the ebow that are infinite and produce a disproportionate benefit for being infinite.

[Qbopper]

I still feel that removing the roundstart superior-to-every-alternative weapons will curb roundstart murderboning, if nothing else because the wannabe murderers have to find a weapon first. Murderboning with a non-standard weapon can be fun, and a murderboner later in the round can give bored people something to aim at while they're generally better prepared; the kind that's very rarely fun is the roundstart ebow esword, or double esword + noslips, or revolver, which is easy for the traitor but unfun for victims and observers. Even for newbies, i think it'd be nicer if the equipment didn't encourage deathmatch as a gameplay.

I'm probably in the minority, but I'm ok with certain weapons on the roster that are "superior-to-every-alternative" like the Revolver. I'm ok wtih that one because generally speaking its a finite resource. You aren't going to be able to infinitely fight off the station with a revolver because eventually your ammo runs out. It gives you a leg up in lethality, but its quite loud and nobody picks up shell casings so it leave evidence beyond just the bloodtrail of your victim.

What tends to produce murderboning on large scales are weapons like the ebow that are infinite and produce a disproportionate benefit for being infinite.

Yeah, that's a nice balance imo

it should be that the objectively better and super useful weapons are limited use and are pretty obvious - this is one of the things I think eswords does right (maybe make them go farther and have your wild swinging of the thing cause gashes in the floor) and, like you said, the revolver

the ebow is nearly undetectable, leaves no traces, and can be used forever with no repercussion

[ShadowDimentio]

All the traitor gear has hard limits that you hit and get killed if you aren't careful.

The dual esword is only effective at point blank range and can be countered by running away and getting gear to dunk them, and if it works they're literally out of options because they blew nearly their whole load on the dual esword.

The revolver is extremely powerful and has effectively limitless ammo if you have access to a lathe, but you have to reload and it does nothing to protect you from getting shot yourself.

The ebow is good at surprise attacks and pinning people down but is bad at finishing them off and active combat.

[Qbopper]

All the traitor gear has hard limits that you hit and get killed if you aren't careful.

The dual esword is only effective at point blank range and can be countered by running away and getting gear to dunk them, and if it works they're literally out of options because they blew nearly their whole load on the dual esword.

Not to be snarky, but what can the average crew member "gear up" with to take down a desword user

The revolver is extremely powerful and has effectively limitless ammo if you have access to a lathe, but you have to reload and it does nothing to protect you from getting shot yourself.

no complaints here, I agree

The ebow is good at surprise attacks and pinning people down but is bad at finishing them off and active combat.

it's also pathetically easy to finish them off with literally anything else due to the way stuns work - you don't need to make or buy a weapon if you have an ebow because a fire extinguisher does the job just the same

[ShadowDimentio]

A molotov, IED, bomb lance, literally any throwing weapon, soap, disarm intent if you're suicidal. Basically don't get within murder range of the man with the glowy sword

[XDTM]

I agree with limited use or at least not too easily rechargeable weapons. As i've seen in some rounds, though, people can stock up huge amounts of revolver bullets, needing just two per kill. Energy weapons don't really suffer from this due to not being able to stockpile at all, but it'd be hard to move the revolver thematically to a battery-based weapon.

ShadowDimentio, the point isn't that they're able to take out the entire server because eventually they do get stopped, but they're strong enough at roundstart that they can often force a shuttle call through chaos and depopulation before someone manages to land the lucky disarm.

[ShadowDimentio]

Try running.

[confused rock]

So yeah use those other options instead of the ebow, at least you have to kill a sec officer to get your taser, and you have to stop to recharge it

[youtube]czTksCF6X8Y[/youtube]
"guys I hate the wrench it does 5 brute and can be found in a toolbox or a tool vendor"
"but toolboxes do 12 brute and screwdrivers from the vendor can stab eyes and welders do 15 with no stun chance"
"so use those instead of the wrench at least those don't spawn on the specific table in tool storage the wrench does"
"guys I hate the medical wrench people can use it to ruin their corpse when they suicide"
"but they can space themself"
"so use the airlock instead of the medical wrench at least airlocks aren't found in medbay forget that you can only afford 1 medical wrench max while there are many airlocks and you can create more ways into space"
"guys I hate that wizard belts get the wand of teleportation it can teleport you into space"
"but they also get a wand of fireball and wand of death, plus polymorph can also ruin you"
"so use them instead, if you take the polymorph out they don't have as much ammo as the teleport wand anyway"
"guys I hate that ambrosia deus exists omnizine is op"
"but tricordrazine exists, and gaia is even more powerful"
"so use gaia instead, at least you have to mutate the plant twice instead of once for gaia"
"guys I hate that lasers exist they can kill somebody in 5 hits nothing else sec gets can do that"
"but if they fill their riot shotguns with slugs or use a combat shotgun they are weapons of mass destruction"
"so use them, at least you have to get the ammo"
"guys I hate that ion carbines exist they can 1 shot borgs"
"but sec starts with the ion rifle"
"so use that, at least it can't fit in a backpack"
"guys I hate that tear gas exists, it can stun you if you go into it"
"but flashbangs exist and tear gas is blocked by mere medhuds and has poor range"
"so use flashbangs, at least flashbangs can't be made out of condensed capsaicin and don't linger"
"guys I hate manual pumps, they allow atmos to move gasses easily"
"but volume pumps are faster"
"so use volume pumps, at least atmos techs have to switch out for volume pumps"
"guys I hate pacmans they create too much power"
"but solars are stronger and don't require plasma"
"so set up solars, at least solars only work when the sun faces the right way and use more wires"
"guys gar glasses are too op they have a chance to embed on hit"
"but spears do as well and are more damaging and can knock out with an ied attached"
"so use spears, at least spears can't be found in the captain's locker or worn in the eye slot"
"guys wooden chairs are too op they deal 8 damage and can block disarms"
"but stools don't break on hit"
"so use stools, at least stools can't be broken into wood and can't be found in libary"
"guys sos's private reserve beef jerky is too op it gives nourishment"
"but 4noraisins gives more nutrition and has less sugars"
"so eat raisins, at least raisins is harder to click on the vending machine list (despite having a larger stock) and takes longer to eat"
"guys the letter k is too op it can make a kuh sound"
"but the letter C also can make a kuh sound and a ss sound"
"so use c, at least c is harder to hit on your keyboard if you are missing your left hand"
"guys the golden revolver is too op it does 60 damage on hit"
"but the regular one can be bought by traitors and doesn't give screenshake"
"so use that, at least the regular revolver costs tcs (the gold one is wizard only)"
"guys the lesser summon guns spell is too op it spawns like 30 mosins"
"but the mutate spell is cheaper and gives the wizard laser eyes"
"so use mutate, at least with mutate the wizard can't throw spent mosins at the enemy as well to attack"
"guys sleep toxin is too op it can knock people out"
"but chloral does it faster"
"so use chloral, at least chloral has a risk of killing your target if you didn't mean to and can't be found in locked medical lockers"
"guys sulphuric acid is too op if you pour enough on somebody their clothes will burn off
"but polyacid burns far stronger and even that has been nerfed since its 2 hit kill days"
"so use polyacid, at least it requires 3 chem dispenser button presses instead of 1"
"guys lawyers are too op they get shades"
"but sec officers get sechuds"
"so use sec officer, at least sec can't be traitors"
"guys cleanbots are too op they can clean for free"
"but janitor borgs can clean any room in under 5 seconds"
"so use janitorborgs, at least borgs are player controlled"
"guys steak is too op the chef can make it fast"
"but donk pockets contain omnizine and chef starts with a box of em"
"so use donk pockets, at least donk pockets cool over time"
(actually I think they mightve removed the cooling due to some exploit with upgraded microwaves I don't remember)
"guys welding helmets are too op they give 10 brute resist"
"but hard hats also give burn and other types of resist and can be found in aux tool storage"
"so use hard hats, at least they can't be made in autolathes"
"guys small beakers are op they can hold 50 units of a reagent"
"but large beakers can hold 100 units"
"so use large beakers, at least large beakers cost slightly more in an autolathe"
"guys forks are op you can stab people in the eye with them and eat spaghetti"
"but you can eat spaghetti with your hands and screwdrivers can stab eyes and screw stuff"
"so use screwdrivers, at least screwdrivers can't be found in bar, forget that there is only a limited supply of forks"
"guys walking is op you can move over wet floor tiles"
"but running is like 20x faster"
"so use running, at least running accidentally gets disabled when you alt tab sometimes"
"guys windows are op they can be seen through"
"but reinforced windows are stronger"
"so use reinforced windows, at least reinforced windows require the rods you were gonna use for the grille anyway"
"guys mouse traps are op if somebody with no shoes runs on a primed one they take a slight bit of brute damage and get stunned"
"but glass shards and d4s stun longer and hurt more, as well as not needing to be re primed"
"so use glass shards or d4s, at least those require you to break a window or open a dice bag rather than weld into the janitors office to get at the limited supply of mousetraps"
"guys turning into a shadowling in xenobio is op you can heal in the dark"
"but plants are easier to turn into with the formula to become one and can always heal using a pda light"
"so go plant, at least shadowlings can survive in a room if they have literally no light source for 20 minutes"
"guys strawmen are op you make an argument easier to attack"
"but people can just say 'nice strawman' and you look stupid"
"so say nice strawmen at least saying that requires the letter n to be on your keyboard"
"guys the library console is op it makes infinite books that can be used to throw to shock people with teslagrilles"
"but paper bins contain plenty of paper airplanes and can be carried"
"so use paper bins, at least paper bins only have 30 papers"
"guys megafauna are too op if one gets on station it destroys everything"
"but singulos also destroy everything and are easier to get access to"
"so use singulos, at least megafauna are not too hard to achieve in comparison to a singulo if the engineers set up a tesla"
"guys droppers are op they can shove 5 units into yo dick"
"but sleepy pens can be refilled and hyposprays exist, both of which work on guys with glasses"
"so use those, at least those don't spawn in chemistry"
"guys slowing floor tiles are too op people can stand on those floor tiles like any other type and only require slimes"
"but regular floor tiles don't slow you down"
"so use floor tiles, at least floor tiles require metal"
"guys guitars are too op they do 10 brute and make annoying noises"
"but electric guitars also do 10 brute and are more annoyingly loud"
"so use electric guitars, at least you can't find an electric guitar lying next to the pianos if you travel back in time"
"guys flypeople are op if the ai is antimov it isn't obligated to kill them"
"but the ai is usually asimov in which case human is better"
"so use human, at least humans will be attacked by lizards if there is a race war"
"guys the decloner is too op it does clone damage"
"but that only appears when wizards summon guns in which case it couldve been a pulse destroyer"
"so use a pulse destroyer, at least pulse laser damage can be healed with ointment"

[Slignerd]

I would be fine with mini energy crossbows being removed, as long as regular energy crossbows remain available in RnD.

With enough effort, a traitor can get an energy crossbow just fine with a powersink and an emag - then throw an esword into the mix and the classic loadout is still possible, just not at roundstart.

[confused rock]

thats like fucking saying its not removing the flash if you remove all forms of flashes except flashbangs and make flashbangs only makable via chemistry

[Incomptinence]

Oh man people who stun someone have a real easy time finishing them off with something other than the ebow.

We should make it 2 shot kill people like the revolver to balance this injustice and prevent ignoble deaths for our most vulnerable players.

[Slignerd]

Chemistry is pretty tedious and impossible to get anything complex from if you don't join specifically as one of the two available Chemist jobs. - and if you go there without being a Chemist, you're definitely going to raise suspicion and get interrupted. In contrast, RnD is much less guarded and all it takes is hacking or emagging one or two doors to get there with no one but the most fervous Scientists or RDs doing anything about your presence.

It would remove ebows from routine playstyle, that much I'm not denying - but even with it being removed, you can still get it with a little effort.

[Wyzack]

I urge you all to look at this from a standpoint of how it can improve the combat of the game rather than just seeing it as a hugbox attempt to make things safe. Less stuns does not need to mean less lethality and i think there is a bit of kneejerk reaction any time the murder meta is touched

[confused rock]

"less stuns" and "removing a stun" and "stun overhaul" are different things
its like if you made the surgical drill do 5 brute but kept the saw as is
its like if you made helmet crates explode if they touch lava but not any other crate to counter lavaland crate opening
its like if the retro laser gun did 25 dmg but no other kind of laser gun
its like if shotgun buckshot did 30 dmg max but slugs were normal
its like if dual eswords did 25 damage but normal still did 30
its like if cargo techs had no maint access but assistants still did
its like if you removed every gun from the game EXCEPT the tesla revolver
its like ok im done

[Qbopper]

I urge you all to look at this from a standpoint of how it can improve the combat of the game rather than just seeing it as a hugbox attempt to make things safe. Less stuns does not need to mean less lethality and i think there is a bit of kneejerk reaction any time the murder meta is touched

thank you, it's frustrating to think "this isn't encouraging fun combat/gameplay" and have people interpret it as "we should make people kill less often"

rock what the fuck is happening to you I actually don't understand what you're saying anymore, this shtick is dumb

[confused rock]

thats a legit point I don't understand what you mean

[cedarbridge]

If you need a roundstart infintitaser to keep up your traitor KDR you need to de-casual yourself

[Qbopper]

thats a legit point I don't understand what you mean

your wall of text post, I mean

[confused rock]

I was saying xdtm has a stupid argument

[PKPenguin321]

If you need a roundstart infintitaser to keep up your traitor KDR you need to de-casual yourself

Read kors posts young one

[Slignerd]

You can't buy an e-sword and an e-bow except in the rare event of a discount though.

An e-sword is 8 TCs and an e-bow is 14 TCs. Basic maths tells us that is 22TC in cost.

Did I miss something? I distinctly recall it costing 12 TC, and being just enough to spend all 20 TCs when combined with an esword.

[XDTM]

I was saying xdtm has a stupid argument

Your counter argument seems based on me saying that tasers are better, which they're not (except in the very specific case where you have five targets in front of you to stun quickly). My point is that people shouldn't be able to murderbone roundstart, not never, and they can get similar tools in other ways if ebows are removed. Not that '''inferior''' items should be removed in favor of better ones.

[danno]

That man just had an argument with himself in a single post and it took him over an hour to write