[POLL]Removing ling from rotation but keeping traitorchan

[Alex Crimson]

Bottom post of the previous page:

As i understand it they can walk in light, they just get hurt by it. Even if they cannot interact with machines, they can just smash up lights or cut wires in maint. From looking at the Shadowling thread, its just another Alien infestation game mode.

[DemonFiren]

While I am under the impression we should discuss that in the shadowlings' own thread it is good that the list of potential issues to be looked out for and remedied during test-playing has expanded.

[Remie Richards]

I will repeat, PLEASE NO SHITTY SHADOW TWATS.

[Steelpoint]

Its been well established that the Shadowling is a fun and enjoyable antag, which is surprising considering the actual Changeling itself is pretty disliked.

I think we should work on the Shadowling and Changeling seperatly, let someone take the reigns of the Changeling and try and make it better while making the Shadowling its own thing.

[Bombadil]

I will repeat, PLEASE NO SHITTY SHADOW TWATS.

From what i heard admins did their own playtest of it and people enjoyed it although it required a lot of work

[Remie Richards]

I will repeat, PLEASE NO SHITTY SHADOW TWATS.

From what i heard admins did their own playtest of it and people enjoyed it although it required a lot of work

A successful event does not really support that event becoming a game mode.
For example, the Death squad enlist event on basil, it was enjoyed, but should it be a game mode? not really no.

[Steelpoint]

Difference is Shadowlings events have been held multiple times, and have not only been well received but somewhat balanced for a admin event.

The fact of the matter is a admin variant of Changeling is far more well liked than the actual Changeling game mode, that by itself should be encouragement to get rid of the current Changeling gamemode until something better comes up, Shadowling or another Changeling game mode.

[Scones]

A successful event does not really support that event becoming a game mode.

True, but I think it's been expanded upon enough that it's pretty much it's own thing just inspired by the event.

For example, the Death squad enlist event on basil, it was enjoyed, but should it be a game mode? not really no.

(true but hot damn when are we getting part 2)

[Remie Richards]

You can change the balance of a mode without changing it's theme.
I've only complained about the theme change, I'm pretty much on board with the other ideas.

(true but hot damn when are we getting part 2)

When Me, Sticky and Fayrik and LongBowMan or a significant portion of this group (3/4) are all on basil.
It'll happen.

[Reimoo]

If we are going to argue shadowlings and changelings existing as two separate entities first we have to identify the intended differences between them. IIRC shadowling was created just because changeling really had no identity at all in terms of gameplay and we wanted an antag that actually fit the bill of being a 2spooky elusive creeper that snatches people for reasons unknown. Shadowling right now comes closer to that description better than changeling ever did, so what becomes of changeling now?

[Xhuis]

There are a few options for the future of changeling.

1. Keep Changeling and Shadowling as separate gamemodes.

This seems like the best option to me. It keeps everyone happy. People who enjoy changeling get to play changeling, while people who want to play shadowling play shadowling. There isn't a problem with either side because both antagonists fulfill their own niche well and the addition of shadowling is literally just a new gamemode for people to play and enjoy.

2. Replace Changeling with Shadowling.

Removing changeling just doesn't seem like a good idea to me. Changelings are well-balanced and have the ability to adapt to almost any imaginable situation. Because shadowlings and changelings, at their core, aren't the same thing, people who like changelings would protest at the removal of it for some new gamemode that shoulders aside something that's been in the game for a very long time.

3. Replace Changeling gamemode with Shadowling, incorporate Changelings as side antag in other gamemodes.

This has its ups and downs. People who like changeling can play it more often, and people who like shadowling get to play that too. Problem with side antags is that without a lot of modifications it can be unbalanced. Imagine a changeling who get culted. ARM BLADE THEM FOR NAR-SIE, etc. Or a revolutionary changeling. Or a changeling during blob who can just regenerate whenever Sir Blobsalot kills it. The list goes on. Side antagonists might work but I doubt it.

4. Replace Changeling with Shadowling. Keep Traitor-Chan in the rotation.

Doing this is also a fairly good option. There are quite a few cons, however, one of which is security metagaming the existence of changelings also resulting in the existence of traitors, as well as changeling's frequency being reduced. As I have mentioned quite a few times now, people enjoy changeling, and reducing the amount of times changeling happens might cause some debate.

There's a lot of ways to handle this problem, but we'll burn that bridge when we come to it - shadowling is still a very long way down the road.

[dezzmont]

If we are going to argue shadowlings and changelings existing as two separate entities first we have to identify the intended differences between them. IIRC shadowling was created just because changeling really had no identity at all in terms of gameplay and we wanted an antag that actually fit the bill of being a 2spooky elusive creeper that snatches people for reasons unknown. Shadowling right now comes closer to that description better than changeling ever did, so what becomes of changeling now?

Changelings never really were fully supported as shapeshifters in either version. While their signature power was stealing an identity, they did it no better than a random dude in a jumpsuit. Newchan is, as someone else put it, basically a Prototype knockoff.

Giving changeling powers designed to make them mercurial and evasive would probably fit their theme, and contrast them with traitors who are more technology and fond of gadgets that allow,them to remotely attack others, assault others, protect themselves, or bypass obstacles.

Some potential powers could include a very long cooldown jaunt that can't pass through walls, the ability to store equipment inside of themselves including full outfits (Because seriously, without a quick change clothing ability changeling is just a slightly better voice changer in terms of identity theft), the ability to move past a door, and perhaps debuffs that either tip the odds for the changeling 1v1 without being an instant knock out or otherwise allows them to evade danger, such as a toxin that mutes and slows but doesn't otherwise limit your ability to fight back.

[DemonFiren]

Multimode changeling sounds fun.

Imagine an all-ling poo cops team.

[Alex Crimson]

3. Replace Changeling gamemode with Shadowling, incorporate Changelings as side antag in other gamemodes.

This has its ups and downs. People who like changeling can play it more often, and people who like shadowling get to play that too. Problem with side antags is that without a lot of modifications it can be unbalanced. Imagine a changeling who get culted. ARM BLADE THEM FOR NAR-SIE, etc. Or a revolutionary changeling. Or a changeling during blob who can just regenerate whenever Sir Blobsalot kills it. The list goes on. Side antagonists might work but I doubt it.

and imagine a Changeling who strikes a deal with Sec to help kill the Cult/Revs. Hell, during a blob round, if the changeling dies it could become a zombie, so i have no idea how that would work.

[dezzmont]

The changeling as a pseudo-neutral with the potential for evil would actually be interesting. There are a lot of pseudo-team based paranoia games with a wild card.

One of the most boring things about changeling is that it lacks any real paranoia. The idea that there is a changeling and that he has a decent shot at being on station to kill someone but has an equally decent chance to be there to help would be... unsettling.

Admin wise it would be complicated. I would advocate treating 'ling like a full antag regardless of if he got an anti-station goal, it is better to condition good-lings to not openly declare themselves without really thinking it through than condition sec that they can't kill open changelings because *Bwonk.*

[DemonFiren]

So does that mean we can assign lings stuff like protect objectives, now?

[dezzmont]

Protect objectives have a lot of problems in practice. It doesn't really end up creating a healthy dyanmic and it tends to be extremely obvious that someone wants to protect someone else if they are doing it well. If they try to be subtle they tend to fail. And the way we set up the game 1v2s are really not entertaining.

Protect might work if the round is set up more around it, a sort of "Protect the principle" mode when you have multiple people going after someone, identities known to each other, with some actually set up to protect them, but it would be very involved.

[Luke Cox]

Remove ling but also remove pure traitors. Traitorchan is more fun than one or the other. Replace Ling with Shadowling and replace pure traitor with something else.

[Miauw]

Its been well established that the Shadowling is a fun and enjoyable antag, which is surprising considering the actual Changeling itself is pretty disliked.

I think we should work on the Shadowling and Changeling seperatly, let someone take the reigns of the Changeling and try and make it better while making the Shadowling its own thing.

lol, how was it established?
by theoretical discussion on how the antag would work?
in that case, newling has been established to be a fun and enjoyable antag, too.

i'm not saying that shadowlings are shit, but you can't say "it has been established to be fun" when nobody has ever played a shadowling round (unless bay coded them while i wasnt looking or something)

[Steelpoint]

Its been well established that the Shadowling is a fun and enjoyable antag, which is surprising considering the actual Changeling itself is pretty disliked.

I think we should work on the Shadowling and Changeling seperatly, let someone take the reigns of the Changeling and try and make it better while making the Shadowling its own thing.

lol, how was it established?
by theoretical discussion on how the antag would work?
in that case, newling has been established to be a fun and enjoyable antag, too.

i'm not saying that shadowlings are shit, but you can't say "it has been established to be fun" when nobody has ever played a shadowling round (unless bay coded them while i wasnt looking or something)

I'm saying its established from all the times the admins have painstakingly created a Shadowling on the server.

Its happened, its been played and people enjoy it on server.

[dezzmont]

What's with all these people who want to remove gamemodes...?

Removing things that don't work or historically cause problems isn't bad. You just need to justify the removal.

Also "we don't want to remove people from round" view on gamemodes will result in everything being just clone of revolution.

Removing people from the round is perfectly fine. Wiz is fun and many traitors get assassinate objectives. The problem is that Changeling loads both barrels full of suck by making the mode about removing a bunch of people and lasting forever with an antagonist who makes the round feel like extended. The point of an antag is to provide greater context for the round and create conflict, that is their entire purpose, to antagonize. Changeling happens to be really bad at it due to many core assumptions about changelings sort of requiring it, though newchan is a bit better about it than oldchan.

Rev happens to be really good at it, which is why game modes are taking ideas from rev, but wizard and traitor are really good at causing tension and conflict as well. The trick is to take what works from rounds that work, and put them into rounds that don't quite work while keeping them identifiable as a unique mode with its own feel and identity seperate from the old round. Nuke and Wizard are both good examples of a similar set up, off station antag that specializes at least on some level in causing overt panic and ending the round rather quickly, that play out rather differently from each other.

I'm saying its established from all the times the admins have painstakingly created a Shadowling on the server.

Its happened, its been played and people enjoy it on server.

You didn't establish it. You tested it and early results show that a sample population enjoys it. Saying has been established is what allows focus groups to destroy movies and games.

[Alex Crimson]

Eh id say newling is worse. They dont really make use of their abilities. Its mostly just murderboning with station items or hiding, with the occasional ling using its ability to fly around in space, transform people or spawn spiders. Oldling actually had lings using their sting to take people down. Now its just a shitty utility belt and half the abilities are not even stings.

Bring back oldling and had it as a side-antagonist. I think people will enjoy it more than the current dragged out game mode that i agree is way too uneventful.

As for Shadowling, it might be a good game mode on its own, but its certainly not something that should replace Changeling.

[Remie Richards]

Bring back oldling

if by "oldling" you mean parasting bullshit master then no, that's legit not happening.
If you mean bring back oldling's ability to instil fear and paranoia (without bullshitsting of course) then sure, all for it.

[Alex Crimson]

Bring back oldling

if by "oldling" you mean parasting bullshit master then no, that's legit not happening.
If you mean bring back oldling's ability to instil fear and paranoia (without bullshitsting of course) then sure, all for it.

Im fine with either. Dont see why people hate parasting considering you can do the same damn thing with a stunprod.

[leibniz]

Bring back oldling

if by "oldling" you mean parasting bullshit master then no, that's legit not happening.
If you mean bring back oldling's ability to instil fear and paranoia (without bullshitsting of course) then sure, all for it.

Im fine with either. Dont see why people hate parasting considering you can do the same damn thing with a stunprod.

The original parasting lasted for minutes and also muted the target. Then it went through some changes before disappearing.

[Alex Crimson]

The parasting i remember was just a stun. You used silence sting then parasting. Both stings would wear off before your victim was absorbed, but you could just remove his headset and by the time he was able to move/talk, he was in a maxed out grab and being choked.

Like i said, you can pretty much do the same thing now, just use a stunprod and be quick.

[Remie Richards]

Actually now that you mention it, My entire strategy with ling atm is just Stunprod/Hybrid Taser + Mute Sting + Handcuffs (if I can get one of the aforementioned weapons, I can get cuffs) and then I just beat the guy with the armblade.

However with a stunprod/stunbaton, you can atleast see *SOMETHING*, its "S/He is stood next to me, with a stunbaton/prod on their belt/backpack/hand" but with the sting it was just "this guy is next to me"

[Alex Crimson]

You could just have a 5-10 second delay before they become paralyzed. 5-10 seconds of being reduced to walking speed along with a warning your muscles are seizing up. Can people still grab you if you are walking? I feel like that would create a good "crawl away as fast as you can whilst a monster tries to grab you" scenario if done right.

[Bombadil]

You could just have a 5-10 second delay before they become paralyzed. 5-10 seconds of being reduced to walking speed along with a warning your muscles are seizing up. Can people still grab you if you are walking? I feel like that would create a good "crawl away as fast as you can whilst a monster tries to grab you" scenario if done right.

What would be the point? They mute sting you prior to the parasting and now your just trying to run super slow. Best you could do is flush yourself down disposals or pda message the ai

[Alex Crimson]

or using an intercom to talk on radio because the ling took your headset. Fun times. Bring it back, screw that stupid armblade bullshit.

[Remie Richards]

Fun times.

Not for the ling. Not to mention PDA's while stunned or weakened is bullshit and has thankfully been removed.

[Cik]

the real problem with ling right now is manyfold

main problems as i see them:

stings besides mute are either too weak or way too obvious. cryosting is meta'd hard for instance. everyone knows immediately they are cryostung and will scream several messages before you have a hope of subduing them.

armblade: the only real way to kill anyone fast enough. seriously. mute+cryosting and try to choke? can't do it. they will crawl out of your grab. there needs to be some way of attaching yourself to someone so that you move with them while grabbing, because grabbing right now is useless unless they are already totally subdued. until then, armblade is simply mandatory and super-robust killer blitzling is the only way to play. stealthling is flatly inferior.

transform: way too unwieldy to use. most ling games i never change identity unless i have to and for good reason. the logistical issues of trying to get an outfit without bloodstains that will somehow convince others that you are not that guy they are hunting, almost impossible.

extract DNA sting: too good, too easy. why eat people when you can just do this and it's both undetectable and much easier to set up? sure it takes your resources but since it's undetectable there is no reason to ever not use it, hell you use it on corpses you've just killed so you can GTFO faster, because speed is life.

weapons: half the lings i see run around with half the armory because there is no reason not to. i'd really like to see lings relying on stealth, or at least their own melee prowess rather than egun number 21 they stole from the armory because they are simultaneously the hos, the captain, the hop and the CE.

don't get me wrong, i enjoy the hell out of playing ling the majority of the time but i don't think that the majority of it's kit is useful. i'd really like to play stealthy shapeshifting killer but most of the time i'm forced to mutesting+armblade autowin mode and it sucks.


the AI: i really enjoy playing AI and believe it brings a cool dynamic, but it's a total crapshoot with ling in particular because the chances of it noticing you while you're killing somebody is extremely high, and unlike traitor you are quite obviously not human (the gigantic scytheblade arm, pretty big giveaway!) since you are nonhuman and INCREDIBLY THREATENING the AI will generally drop everything and do it's best to fucking kill you. a reasonable response, but a huge problem in general due to lings' currently extremely overt nature.

if you want to go full thing i'd introduce a 'splitting' mechanic that allows changelinglings (linglings?) to split off from you. give them ventcrawl and some nice spying kit or something and a hivemind ability, that way you could 'stalk' better. extract sting should probably be removed and armblade should probably be reworked so it's less easy to pull it out and in instantly. either buff or rework every sting but mutesting, whether that's bringing back parasting or whatever, i have no idea. give them some stealth abilities, maybe a cloak or some sort of camoflage. in combination with the linglings you could make them formidable predators

linglings would of course be the ghosts of people you eat. kind of like drones i guess. uh, i don't know maybe a shit idea but it would keep people in the round after they are husked mite b kewl

[Alex Crimson]

Could we give lings some kind of improved transformation power that lets them transform into a wider variety of simple mobs? Dogs, cats, cows, chickens, foxes and maybe even spiders?

As for human transformations, how about giving lings the option to completely swap clothes/items once they finish absorbing someone? Like a popup option. Bloodstains wouldnt be an issue if that shitty Armblade was removed and lings stopped beating people to death rather than actually absorbing them alive.

[Remie Richards]

Could we give lings some kind of improved transformation power that lets them transform into a wider variety of simple mobs? Dogs, cats, cows, chickens, foxes and maybe even spiders

It's written in a comment on the code somewhere that lings could *probably* absorb a monkey and be perfectly fine, but that was removed in favour of a guaranteed lesser form power, and removed the ability to absorb non humans.

Simple animals, Dogs, cats, cows, chickens etc. have no DNA, and changeling's transform power relies on that, you'd need to do a bit of work.

[dezzmont]

I actually like new ling for its ability to quickly steal DNA. Using your signature power as a ling shouldn't be more of a chore than a traitor doing the same. Remember, all a trator needs to transform is a voicechanger and ID.

[Remie Richards]

I actually like new ling for its ability to quickly steal DNA. Using your signature power as a ling shouldn't be more of a chore than a traitor doing the same. Remember, all a trator needs to transform is a voicechanger and ID.

I'll admit DNA sting feels a bit cheap when you have the objective for genomes, but it does mean if you fuck up absorbing/killing someone you pretty much always have a backup identity to just try again/try something else.

[Alex Crimson]

Didnt it used to only take their identity, not count towards the DNA objective? Just change it back to that.

[dezzmont]

Genomes are a pretty terrible objective on their face. The goal is literally to murder a bunch of people as an antag who is really poorly suited towards overt interesting conflict.

[Saegrimr]

Genomes are a pretty terrible objective on their face. The goal is literally to murder a bunch of people as an antag who is really poorly suited towards overt interesting conflict.

Extract sting essentially made it so you don't have to kill a single person.

In fact, i'd gotten all my other objectives done EXCEPT genomes, and got them the last 10 seconds on the escape shuttle. Stung 3 more dudes, transformed, sting two more, DONE, DOCK, GREENTEXT.
Its really a non-issue.

[Bombadil]

Genomes are a pretty terrible objective on their face. The goal is literally to murder a bunch of people as an antag who is really poorly suited towards overt interesting conflict.

Extract sting essentially made it so you don't have to kill a single person.

In fact, i'd gotten all my other objectives done EXCEPT genomes, and got them the last 10 seconds on the escape shuttle. Stung 3 more dudes, transformed, sting two more, DONE, DOCK, GREENTEXT.
Its really a non-issue.

The whole idea you need to transform to get more dna extractions is kind of fucking bullshit and then you cant even transform back into yourself.

So much for masters of disguise

[leibniz]

Genomes are a pretty terrible objective on their face. The goal is literally to murder a bunch of people as an antag who is really poorly suited towards overt interesting conflict.

Extract sting essentially made it so you don't have to kill a single person.

In fact, i'd gotten all my other objectives done EXCEPT genomes, and got them the last 10 seconds on the escape shuttle. Stung 3 more dudes, transformed, sting two more, DONE, DOCK, GREENTEXT.
Its really a non-issue.

The whole idea you need to transform to get more dna extractions is kind of fucking bullshit and then you cant even transform back into yourself.

So much for masters of disguise

You can do it if you hive upload your original identity, then download it later when you have enough genomes, which makes it a shitty newbie trap.

[Fragnostic]

Adaptive Zoonosis:
We resequence our genetic code to be compatible with simpler life forms, allowing us to take their form and identity.

That's the problem with ling. if you get caught, there aren't great weapons to just go loud with. Maybe some sort of ability to assimilate another being to also have minor ling abilities, but are bound to the being that hijacked them. Maybe some sort of ranged weapon, nothing that'll stun too long, just a simple knockdown you can spam down a hallway to stop people from chasing you while you armblade to safety. Wasn't there an acid spit? How about some sort of way to dettach a limb to become a separate organic entity and then you regrow the arm. That creature you make could be some fucked up flesh scorpion instead of spiders, because spiders are shit imo. Slow ling round? Hurr shit spidurrs:D xDD

[Incomptinence]

Making lings powerful and deadly enough to be an alternate lone antag to wizard would be preferable to the current state of affairs. I mean people call parasting bullshit but compared to Ei Nath it is a gentle breeze.

Ling never was traitor + or 2.0 or whatever they have mostly idled behind traitors in terms of potency their entire existence in the majority of metrics of capability. People don't fear them because they are plain not a significant threat. The antag has become by and large the quarry and this was the case even under oldling, it is the prey not the predator.

[Malkevin]

IDEA: What if lings could purchase an ability to drop a big pile of shit biomass in a dark corner somewhere, that they can use to resurrect themselves - even if their original body has been gibbed/ashed.

Would probably need to disguise the biomass somehow, maybe as a random food item that if someone consumes they become an undetectable carrier of the biomass or as a mouse - vermin would need to randomly spawn though to stop people meta killing all the maint rats.

[Steelpoint]

IDEA: What if lings could purchase an ability to drop a big pile of shit biomass in a dark corner somewhere, that they can use to resurrect themselves - even if their original body has been gibbed/ashed.

Would probably need to disguise the biomass somehow, maybe as a random food item that if someone consumes they become an undetectable carrier of the biomass or as a mouse - vermin would need to randomly spawn though to stop people meta killing all the maint rats.

That would make getting rid of Changlings far more obnoxious than it needs to be.

[DemonFiren]

Only if it costs them a genome or five.

[Remie Richards]

IDEA: What if lings could purchase an ability to drop a big pile of shit biomass in a dark corner somewhere, that they can use to resurrect themselves - even if their original body has been gibbed/ashed.

Would probably need to disguise the biomass somehow, maybe as a random food item that if someone consumes they become an undetectable carrier of the biomass or as a mouse - vermin would need to randomly spawn though to stop people meta killing all the maint rats.

That would make getting rid of Changlings far more obnoxious than it needs to be.

Well Traitors usually get to go to perma/gulag which they have a chance of escaping where as Changelings are dead the literal second they're found out. Nobody arrests changelings, they gib them or turn them to ash, 0 chances remaining, ur ded.

So out of the 2 main station antags, one get's a "go to jail free card" and the other becomes lunch? not really fair.

[Vigilare]

traitors can't self-resurrect, but lings can

(also, build yourself an autocloner in maint --> hide an ID and some basic gear --> ??? --> profit)

[Snakebutt]

Wow, people really hate ling. I have a few ideas though.

For one, lings are just too damn quiet. Giving them silent objs tends to lead to that.

Lets add a timer. If a ling hasnt gotten a new genome in 2-5 minutes, they start losing chemicals until they are powerless, dying in 10-20 mins of no absorb. Obviously remove sting, they HAVE to grab and eat someone.

Automatically put on the clothes of your victims gear, saving what you had on. Your genome is as important as the gear to match it, saving it(minus backpack) would be a godsend. If you have to, handwave it as organic fiber to match what the vitims were wearing.

Bring some form of parasting back.

With these three changes, 1-3 lings would devastate a station in a short period of time. With their constant need to feed, people will keep disappearing, adding to the tension, and without bodies, they are MUCH harder to track, making eating even more rewarding.

[Saegrimr]

With these three changes, 1-3 lings would devastate a station in a short period of time.

Why is this a good idea?

[Snakebutt]

Because everyones complaint is ling rounds never ending and nothing happening. If people are being killed off and replaced at a steady rate, the round will have some momentum and end much faster because as soon as the ling runs out of people to eat, they should call the shuttle, rather than recalling it to finish objectives.

Basically a slow murderbone/slasher flick antag.