Tragedy of the commons, tg's lack of depth

[danno]

Bottom post of the previous page:

>be me
>coderbus makes me pee my pants
>lead actual successful rebellion against coderbus
>take over one of the two servers
>get bored and fuck off
>come back
>coderbus is the most open and accepting it has ever been
>fellow rebels are now maintainers and shit

and yet people who refuse to enter coderbus or look at the git or anything will still bitch about how evil coderbus is!!!! fight the power!!!! we will topple the coderbus shadow government!!!

I am your MLK analogue and I think you're stupid

[Reece]

Replacing a rusty barbed wire masturbator with a lubed barbed wire masturbator is still going to flense your gibblies.

[danno]

nigga you weren't around what do you even know
this isn't a "you don't contribute you can't comment thing" it's a "but what do you actually know, who are you" thing
unless you were or something because "barbed wire masturbator" doesn't really sound that far off

[Reece]

nigga you weren't around what do you even know
this isn't a "you don't contribute you can't comment thing" it's a "but what do you actually know, who are you" thing
unless you were or something because "barbed wire masturbator" doesn't really sound that far off

No. AFAIK I wasn't around. I might have played and not had an account, or I might have just not played. However that has no real relevance. I might lack context to see how bad the last lot were, but the current lot are also asses. You ever watch the Dictator?
"Oh my god, look at how much has changed! It's amazing!"
'No it's just less shit'
It's still shitty, but it's moved from early alpha, beta.

You are comparing a rotten apple to a (pardon the pun) squashed Orange. Objectively yes the festering gloop that was an apple is worse than the smushed Orange, but no one wants either. Not being massively condescending, dismissive, aggressive and antagonistically patronising children who light their toys on fire when they don't get their way is not an achievement, It's a baseline.

I can't find the HG quote of 'My coderbase' on my phone but it very much applies. So pardon my frankness when I say 'Who gives a shit who I am' the disturbing dismissive criticism of 'Well y-you didn't see the other lot' is baby levels of pleading here because the current lot are asses. I mean don't get me wrong, so are the players; but the players can't change the way the game works and then go "lol deal with it crybabies" before fucking off and not playing for six months.

[Steelpoint]

Colonial Marines works because the the guy in charge has absolute power and no one fucks with him. He has a clear vision of where the game should go, and either you accept it or you get out.

Not that they are inflexible, and that they are clearly very open to suggestions and player changes, but at the end of it their word is final.

We are never going to have that kind of system. Whereas they work on a sort of close source code, we are based on a open community that accepts everyone, for better or worse.

We are never going to hammer out a definite way forward with the game, because the moment one person in a position of authority disagrees with a proposed change, then the whole system will fall apart quicker than a house of cards.

Nothing will come of this, as nothing has ever come of prior discussions similar to this. Aside from people dreaming of a reality that is beyond the impossible.

[CPTANT]

Not really having a goal for the crew is one of the most fundamental flaws in ss13 game design.


It's not really an option to tack on things such as station goals etc. Such a thing should have been thought of during the conception of the game.


Things would be way more engaging if the game was structured around the crew being forced to work together to survive. That traitor among them then becomes a lot more interesting, as he is still somewhat dependant on the rest of the crew.

[Steelpoint]

Its akin to how Departmental Security was first implemented on Boxstation.

It was after thought, and the offices were crammed into wherever they could fit, it was functional but very far from optimal.

Whereas new stations have departmental security in mind, meaning new stations tend to have well integrated departmental security.

[onleavedontatme]

Of course I'm not infallible, that is why we have half a dozen other maintainers and the head coder and all the places for feedback. Even then we don't always get it right, but someone has to make a decision eventually, and it's not always going to line up with what you want.

Call me crazy but all 7 of you seem extremely similar in thought. I've never seen a PR that struck me as one that say Oranges would never merge, Kor might and Remie would definitely.

We disagree all the time. Someone even briefly lost maintainer last month. But there is such a big workload and so much hostility from outside coderbus already that we're usually willing to just let things go instead of getting in a big public fight about it. Easier to just let Cheridan break ties and move on with our lives.

[kevinz000]

Oranges is right. Core game mechanics do need work, instead of new shit to distract the players from how they need work.

[AnturK]

The fact that most new coders start with new things is only natural, it's easier to understand things you created from grounds up especially since most of our systems code is not very newbie friendly. Not really seeing how you can guide ideas submitted without going full hitler on accepted content. One thing i can see is opening milestones of content in need of updates/rework/depth and focusing on improving only few areas of the game at the same time, but i can already see this will lead to coder burnout. Especially since it will lead to clash of ideas.

On the current situation, you still only need one maintainer to get feature in, and i'm not seeing this changing with only having Kor as a check against unwanted content with the amount of stuff that gets in. Either we need more people doing Ko's job or we need to slow down on the features. Design direction requires culling content that failed, right now any removal is met with "a single person playing once a year uses this so it needs to stay in" arguments for long enough most people don't bother trying anymore.

Now on to specifics, literally no one can agree what the core of ss13 is. Without having some agreement on this you can't progress to reinforcing these.

[Screemonster]

the thing about SS13 code that frustrates me to this day whenever I'm working on an existing thing is following the spaghettimaze to find out where the fuck that "..()" goes for the thing I'm working on, 'cause you'd think it's simple but you can never make that assumption and then you find it calls some other proc somewhere else entirely so by the time I've tried to decode "okay, let's just run this proc from beginning to end so I can map out what happens in my head" I've got six or seven tabs open from years upon years of incremental bolting-shit-on but very few people want to bite the bullet and just rewrite life() or whatever from the ground up because they know they'll be blamed for everything bad that happens for the next year thereafter.

The "make all objects destructable as a generic thing instead of having a million snowflake calls for each class of object" overhaul back in October was a huge task and if I wore a hat I would be tipping it so fuckin' hard at Phil for having the stones to go through with it.

[CPTANT]

The fact that most new coders start with new things is only natural, it's easier to understand things you created from grounds up especially since most of our systems code is not very newbie friendly. Not really seeing how you can guide ideas submitted without going full hitler on accepted content. One thing i can see is opening milestones of content in need of updates/rework/depth and focusing on improving only few areas of the game at the same time, but i can already see this will lead to coder burnout. Especially since it will lead to clash of ideas.

On the current situation, you still only need one maintainer to get feature in, and i'm not seeing this changing with only having Kor as a check against unwanted content with the amount of stuff that gets in. Either we need more people doing Ko's job or we need to slow down on the features. Design direction requires culling content that failed, right now any removal is met with "a single person playing once a year uses this so it needs to stay in" arguments for long enough most people don't bother trying anymore.

Now on to specifics, literally no one can agree what the core of ss13 is. Without having some agreement on this you can't progress to reinforcing these.

Also opposition to new things is WAY less than tweaks to existing stuff.

Having to justify each balance change on its own without the ability to have a long term plan is horrible for any attempt at balance.

[Qbopper]

I think the complaint in the OP is valid and agree to an extend with Xhuis about the playerbase shying away from things that take more time (or at least the notion of things that take more time)

I recently saw the design doc for the medbay rework and was really interested, especially since medbay is one of the few roles I have more than a passing knowledge about

I often find myself thinking about game design and balancing, and I figure one of these days I might sit down on a weekend and take a good long look at the game as a whole, and consider what could be better (imo) - but since my coding experience with ss13 is limited and I don't want to be that ideas guy I keep putting it off

I'm not even saying I'm a genius with an eye for game design, but I think we should start examining specific systems and throwing out ideas beyond making simple ideas threads for a single armor rebalance or a new gimmick item that people will play with nonstop for a day and then forget about. I'm just afraid that if people with less experience try to suggest things in these hypothetical threads a lot of the forum regulars will shit on them and completely turn them off from the whole thing

I'm all over the place because I just woke up + my legendary inability to communicate, but TL;DR I agree with OP, why don't we have some more indepth discussions about broader sections of the game. Also, we should stop resorting to personal jabs (eg. "literally who", "you've made dumb things in the past so your opinion is entirely irrelevant") as ways to shut people down, because that does fuck all but derail threads and anger people

[danno]

nigga you weren't around what do you even know
this isn't a "you don't contribute you can't comment thing" it's a "but what do you actually know, who are you" thing
unless you were or something because "barbed wire masturbator" doesn't really sound that far off

No. AFAIK I wasn't around. I might have played and not had an account, or I might have just not played. However that has no real relevance. I might lack context to see how bad the last lot were, but the current lot are also asses. You ever watch the Dictator?
"Oh my god, look at how much has changed! It's amazing!"
'No it's just less shit'
It's still shitty, but it's moved from early alpha, beta.

You are comparing a rotten apple to a (pardon the pun) squashed Orange. Objectively yes the festering gloop that was an apple is worse than the smushed Orange, but no one wants either. Not being massively condescending, dismissive, aggressive and antagonistically patronising children who light their toys on fire when they don't get their way is not an achievement, It's a baseline.

I can't find the HG quote of 'My coderbase' on my phone but it very much applies. So pardon my frankness when I say 'Who gives a shit who I am' the disturbing dismissive criticism of 'Well y-you didn't see the other lot' is baby levels of pleading here because the current lot are asses. I mean don't get me wrong, so are the players; but the players can't change the way the game works and then go "lol deal with it crybabies" before fucking off and not playing for six months.

dude. this is dramatic. you can walk into coderbus and start changing shit whenever you want. don't be ridiculous.

@qbopper it's not a """"personal jab""", it is perfectly valid to question a person when they talk with confidence about something they weren't around for or didn't participate in.

[cedarbridge]

Something I've said for a long time and I see echoed in this thread is that the game itself should be interesting and replayable for most players without needing antagonists. When it isn't, the game turns into hide and seek validhunting because nobody has anything interesting enough to be doing worth disrupting. Each department is just a various speed vending machine that you go through the motions to get <end game item> and then fuck around. This makes even RnD feel shallow because by 20-30 minutes most people have already "maxed" the department and have nothing to do but run around with guns and shit, though I'd wager they and chem have the least worries in the respect. Engineering is moving the direction of being more interesting, but until we have a proper reward system for autismally producing excessive amounts of power or building expansions onto the station, its going to continue to be a super shallow job.

[danno]

yeah I feel like a lot of roles basically boil down to "Try to get this powerful item/weapon/tool/ability and then go find some antags!"

Like I said, things need to be harder and more involved
they should lead to things that are satisfying in their own right without being a thing you can shoot at an antag or something

I hate to bring up lifeweb every time because it's shit but end round goals for me in that were like
"I ran a blacksmith shop and made some very nice armor!"
"I made a ton of money by working hard in the merchant's and had a party!"
"I built a home in the wilderness with my family!"
"I ended the most extensive migrant community I'd ever seen by nutting in Sawrge's eyes!"

there's a lot of shit to do that isn't "race to get this final upgrade and then go shoot someone", and it always keeps you occupied for the entire game

[onleavedontatme]

I think "players can go and make their own stories" is much more a rules thing than a code thing.

[onleavedontatme]

I know I am a fucking broken record but it really doesn't matter if you had X or Y to the game and then admins make it bannable or override it via config/buttons/etc

You'd have to be headmin+have other headmins that agreed with you + admins that agreed with you (or time to be on server yourself) + time to code to push your vision+ time to review prs to stop others undoing your vision + time to play the game to stay in touch with it and hope no maintainers/admins etc push in a opposite direction.

You'd also have to do all of this while staying popular enough to deal with elections 3 times a year.

[onleavedontatme]

When it isn't, the game turns into hide and seek validhunting

Killing antags or killing as antag are some of the only explicitly protected actions a player can take in the game without risking a ban. You can't say we need secret rules in one thread and then in another complain that people are following the only rules they know for sure.

[onleavedontatme]

Also back on topic: I sincerely believe that putting the station on some sort of planet surrounded by a slowly encroaching and escalating hostile threat and the crew having to power up a gate/build a shuttle/go kill the source of the badguys would work best (every job has a purpose, there are goals, you cant just evac) but its obviously something I cant finish alone, and I feel like too many people would be upset if the station wasnt physically in space.

[ShadowDimentio]

Datum antags I think will be a break everyone has been waiting for as it'll finally break the monotony of single antag rounds. Except traitorling, which has and always will be bad, but I digress.

Also special thanks the the douchebags throwing out insults as I try and give good feedback on how to improve the game, you insipid mongoloids.

[onleavedontatme]

We rolled malf/changeling/traitor into a single mode and now people complain about "too much traitor"

Having mixed round types will make the griff lotto more diverse but it won't "fix" ss13

[ShadowDimentio]

Well considering that the whole of the interesting "meat" of SS13 is the grief lotto, improving and diversifying it is one of the best ways to make the game more fun aside from adding new antags to it.

[Xhuis]

AquaStation was to have that kind of mechanic. The fauna and flora would slowly become more aggressive and hostile unless measures were taken to lie low, i.e. if a photosensitive school of fish passes by the abyssal area, shutting off all lights would make them pass by and not try to rip apart anyone who goes out. It could also still be done even in space. A titanic creature in space that tried to attack the station was one of my first concepts but it never got anywhere. I just don't know where we would start right now.

[Cik]

the focus on antags above all IS THE PROBLEM. everything else feels like a distant-second afterthought. most of the stuff the antags even get isn't even interesting. it's just +4 TC +20 damage deathweapon or "gets you access to thing so you can apply deathweapon" after years of development of traitor there's still barely much interesting things to do with it that the gamecode allows, and less that the playerbase will allow.

[danno]

I think "players can go and make their own stories" is much more a rules thing than a code thing.

it's the code that enables this stuff to happen too, though

I know I am a fucking broken record but it really doesn't matter if you had X or Y to the game and then admins make it bannable or override it via config/buttons/etc

You'd have to be headmin+have other headmins that agreed with you + admins that agreed with you (or time to be on server yourself) + time to code to push your vision+ time to review prs to stop others undoing your vision + time to play the game to stay in touch with it and hope no maintainers/admins etc push in a opposite direction.

You'd also have to do all of this while staying popular enough to deal with elections 3 times a year.

yeah we're fucked

PPS. Shadow is a fucking moron LMAO

[TheColdTurtle]

So if the coders will make things more complicated, will we change up the medical system a bit? Nothing that is like Bay too much, but change it enough that medical actually has a job to do.

[Qbopper]

I wasn't specifically aiming that comment at you, danno, I just see it a lot - I'm not saying it wasn't valid in this case, I'm saying I'm afraid of a hypothetical thread where we start to pitch ideas to rework important/older systems and people use "literally who" to ignore opinions from people who don't often go on the forums/etc.

Looking back it sure reads like I was trying to subtly shit on you though, my b

@TheColdTurtle there's a medical rework in the works atm that makes it a lot more indepth

[cedarbridge]

When it isn't, the game turns into hide and seek validhunting

Killing antags or killing as antag are some of the only explicitly protected actions a player can take in the game without risking a ban. You can't say we need secret rules in one thread and then in another complain that people are following the only rules they know for sure.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that when validhunting is the only activity that players find to be fun and interesting, then the game as a design has failed to be interesting and fun on a basic level. That's why players claw their eyes out when they see the notice for extended. Without playing hide and seek antags, the players just aren't enjoying the game. That's a code problem, a culture problem or both.

There are millions of things that players can do or could be doing that don't involve a single weapon and would never risk a ban, but it just turns out that those things generally aren't fun for a large amount of players or they stopped being fun after they were "solved" and reduced to routine. Hell, even building projects are few and far between when not long ago they were very commonplace. Hell, even /vg/ shows off their stuff they build and make just to build and make them. That's a cultural thing though. There's still opportunities to hunt the bad guys, but it isn't the whole round.

[Reece]

nigga you weren't around what do you even know
this isn't a "you don't contribute you can't comment thing" it's a "but what do you actually know, who are you" thing
unless you were or something because "barbed wire masturbator" doesn't really sound that far off

No. AFAIK I wasn't around. I might have played and not had an account, or I might have just not played. However that has no real relevance. I might lack context to see how bad the last lot were, but the current lot are also asses. You ever watch the Dictator?
"Oh my god, look at how much has changed! It's amazing!"
'No it's just less shit'
It's still shitty, but it's moved from early alpha, beta.

You are comparing a rotten apple to a (pardon the pun) squashed Orange. Objectively yes the festering gloop that was an apple is worse than the smushed Orange, but no one wants either. Not being massively condescending, dismissive, aggressive and antagonistically patronising children who light their toys on fire when they don't get their way is not an achievement, It's a baseline.

I can't find the HG quote of 'My coderbase' on my phone but it very much applies. So pardon my frankness when I say 'Who gives a shit who I am' the disturbing dismissive criticism of 'Well y-you didn't see the other lot' is baby levels of pleading here because the current lot are asses. I mean don't get me wrong, so are the players; but the players can't change the way the game works and then go "lol deal with it crybabies" before fucking off and not playing for six months.

dude. this is dramatic. you can walk into coderbus and start changing shit whenever you want. don't be ridiculous.

Really! My god, Xhius is gonna so pleased that his mo- Oh wait no that's absolute twaddle.

@qbopper it's not a """"personal jab""", it is perfectly valid to question a person when they talk with confidence about something they weren't around for or didn't participate in.

It's a largely irelevant point actually. I don't need to drive a car to know that hitting people with it is not good.

[Qbopper]

When it isn't, the game turns into hide and seek validhunting

Killing antags or killing as antag are some of the only explicitly protected actions a player can take in the game without risking a ban. You can't say we need secret rules in one thread and then in another complain that people are following the only rules they know for sure.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that when validhunting is the only activity that players find to be fun and interesting, then the game as a design has failed to be interesting and fun on a basic level. That's why players claw their eyes out when they see the notice for extended. Without playing hide and seek antags, the players just aren't enjoying the game. That's a code problem, a culture problem or both.

There are millions of things that players can do or could be doing that don't involve a single weapon and would never risk a ban, but it just turns out that those things generally aren't fun for a large amount of players or they stopped being fun after they were "solved" and reduced to routine. Hell, even building projects are few and far between when not long ago they were very commonplace. Hell, even /vg/ shows off their stuff they build and make just to build and make them. That's a cultural thing though. There's still opportunities to hunt the bad guys, but it isn't the whole round.

I'm not sure if this is something we can really change, to be honest

It's why I was so big on making more team gamemodes where it's crew vs threat, but I guess if people really don't care to create any opportunities for fun that don't revolve around antags there's little we can do

[cedarbridge]

When it isn't, the game turns into hide and seek validhunting

Killing antags or killing as antag are some of the only explicitly protected actions a player can take in the game without risking a ban. You can't say we need secret rules in one thread and then in another complain that people are following the only rules they know for sure.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that when validhunting is the only activity that players find to be fun and interesting, then the game as a design has failed to be interesting and fun on a basic level. That's why players claw their eyes out when they see the notice for extended. Without playing hide and seek antags, the players just aren't enjoying the game. That's a code problem, a culture problem or both.

There are millions of things that players can do or could be doing that don't involve a single weapon and would never risk a ban, but it just turns out that those things generally aren't fun for a large amount of players or they stopped being fun after they were "solved" and reduced to routine. Hell, even building projects are few and far between when not long ago they were very commonplace. Hell, even /vg/ shows off their stuff they build and make just to build and make them. That's a cultural thing though. There's still opportunities to hunt the bad guys, but it isn't the whole round.

I'm not sure if this is something we can really change, to be honest

It's why I was so big on making more team gamemodes where it's crew vs threat, but I guess if people really don't care to create any opportunities for fun that don't revolve around antags there's little we can do

The best I can figure is we need to just encourage jobs to be engaging enough that people actually want to keep doing them longer than the preset 5-15 minutes an average department takes to "max out" currently. We've been discussing a medbay rework that should hopefully make that job a bit more interesting and engineering is getting some options in the case of power output tweeks and rewards for power surpluses. I think we've just built too many things with "end game" in mind. Where each job just kinda does something and then "ends" and we'd do well to think of better ways to move away from that.

[WJohnston]

To answer the question asked earlier: If you remove antags, what's actually left? A sandbox game, with no goal, struggle, or purpose.

There is no quick bandaid fix for this. The crew dicks around while waiting for something to happen to them, the antags are what happens to them. What SHOULD happen instead is that the crew and every gamemode revolves around a central goal trying to be achieved, and the antags of the round attempting to get in the way of that. This would require an extreme amount of rewriting of gamemodes, antags, a lot of jobs, and really most of the game. I don't see any easy way to do this other than a huge collective freeze while everyone works on the same goal for a couple of months.

But as history has shown, unpaid people who do this as a hobby aren't the best at following through with huge overhaul projects when all we ever do is little contributions at a time.

[Scott]

Before you decide to have any sort of freeze and major collaboration, you need to figure out what to do. But this is a sandbox game/atmos sim at its core and sandboxes aren't known for being entertaining for long (unless you're a severely autistic person).

The concept of turning SS13 into FTL, which it's already being done, is a step forward in the right direction, that direction being making an actual video game out of this. Our gamemodes either depend too much on the crew having something to do to kill the time until the antagonists make the round, and this fails because most jobs are depthless or made trivial by QoL changes (which probably means they weren't fun to begin with), Or they turn the game into team deathmatch, one team being security and the other team being everyone else plus some (these gamemodes aren't bad but they shouldn't be the only interesting thing to do in a game world that lets you manipulate it to such a high degree).

So, ideas for gamemodes that have good synergy with the sandbox aspect of SS13? Also ideas to make jobs have more depth and be more fun? This is the core of the staleness problem of SS13, I think.

[DemonFiren]

>a severely autistic person
or a severely retarded one

which neatly sums up the two directions ss13 servers generally go

[onleavedontatme]

things

SS13 is not very fun as a pure game, no.

It can be pretty fun as a story telling sandbox.

But I think it's silly to tell people they're not allowed to play it X way, and then complain the game has failed when the way you're enforcing (only allowed to kill antags and do your "job") doesn't work.

Danno listed a bunch of stories he had which would all be bannable on /tg/ because

>made a house with his family

Watchlist for metafriending/metagaming

>Started a giant fight and a bunch of people died

Non antag murder

>Worked getting money all shift and threw a party

Security already stormed the "merchant" and force implanted him and took all his money to fight conversion antags and he's banned if he shoots back.

I know "the players can drive fun!" sounds like a design cop out but DnD would also probably be pretty fucking boring if the DM smacked your hand every time you deviated from his script and told you to just roll dice for the monsters, and I don't think it'd entirely be the fault of the game mechanics.

The concept of turning SS13 into FTL, which it's already being done, is a step forward in the right direction

Moving away from the sandbox and to more goal driven gameplay would probably be the least stress long term though, because getting 80 strangers to agree on rules in a roleplay sandbox is obviously an ongoing rules nightmare.

[Scott]

Also I'd like to turn people's attention to the administration and the different administration team members over the years. In a game where human interaction really can make or break the fun of a round, the way human interaction is or isn't policed is very influencial to the fun and depth of the game, because at the end of the day people who make changes do so to cater to a certain way of playing that they prefer and believe in, and this "way of playing" culture can be and is influenced by administration decisions.

edit: ninja'd by kor

[ShadowDimentio]

FTL SS13 would be the best move forwards for TG, high intensity, incentive for repairing and forging onwards by fighting new and exciting enemies, and PvE actually being a thing.

[onleavedontatme]

Seriously thoughI'd love to do FTL 13 or Lavabase 13 or whatever but we'd all need to acknowledge and agree as a project that we were moving on from SS13 to a derivative rather than maintaining vanilla SS13 any longer, and I doubt we'd ever get consensus on that.

[Scott]

I would prefer if we found inspiration in other works of science fiction and not be redundant with second FTL SS13 project.

[Xhuis]

Honestly, if MSO would agree to host it on say, the test server, it'd be fine to have a fork of the codebase with different code. I even talked with him about it during AquaStation and it's feasible.

[Incoming]

Vanilla SS13 is our history and our legacy, it'd be madness to stray away from that completely.

That said doing more "out there" stuff on the side isn't a sin either and I'm interested. Just don't throw out the baby with the bathwater here

Also waving the general "people might be taking this hobbyist open source video game too seriously when they contemplate their navels like this" flag because I don't think anyone has yet and context is important.

Also stating openly that I would personally be much less interested in this as a coder if the direction was laser focused and/or one person had near total control over the codebase.

[cedarbridge]

But I think it's silly to tell people they're not allowed to play it X way

When did I say this? Design guides behavior. Players are naturally going to drift to what is interesting and worthwhile to do. Our job system is not exceptionally interesting but our combat system gets a ton of iteration. Its pretty true on its face that the players will gravitate to the thing getting all of the attention, the combat tools to fight the heavily iterrated combat antags. Because as a sandbox, that's what SS13 has been. Its a job simulator where antags also happen, or don't. When the jobs cease to be entertaining, the antags and antag hunting have to pick up the slack and we get an imbalance. Again, that's a code and culture problem, if we're going to accept that its a problem in the first place.

I don't see where banning people has anything to do with that. I mean, I know you're not advocating that we just remove the rules against metacommunication and non-antag murder. People cooperate in game all the time. The way they cooperate has to be above board and fair to everyone. That's really it. Non-antag murder happens all the time without bans but our policy on what gets to that point and what is allowable has changed so much over the years that I'm not all all surprised to see players have a hard time keeping up.

[leibniz]

Let's get 3 servers, make every server a separate thing, like one server would be lavaland (mining), one would be snow planet, and another would be some xeno planet with archeology (rnd).
If the shuttle isnt emagged and the roundtime is less than 2h, the shuttle just takes you to another server. We can code this in a week.

[danno]

Vanilla SS13 is our history and our legacy, it'd be madness to stray away from that completely.

shackling yourself to an unsatisfying project because of "legacy" is madness
no one is going to toss out ss13, but it's time to do SOMETHING new

[PKPenguin321]

I don't see why we can't manipulate existing mechanics as well as add new ones. Besides, where do you draw the line between editing existing things and creating new ones? A new plant for botany is a new plant with new features, but is just an edit to the existing botany department. Which is it?

[oranges]

You all mostly missed my point which was the servers that have the most focus are the ones with a single person who's word is final.

Either accept that or accept the chaos we have now.

[Wyzack]

But who could be trusted to wield such terrible power?

[captain sawrge]

But who could be trusted to wield such terrible power?

I mean kor is already the design lead anyway

[WJohnston]

clearly we should give that power to HG

again.

[ShadowDimentio]

[autistic screeching]