Isn't HoS Armour Meant To Be A Bit Better Than Standard?

[Steelpoint]

Bottom post of the previous page:

If I were to propose a buff (IF) I would follow my old suggestion PR.

So go from this
melee = 30, bullet = 30, laser = 30
To this
melee = 50, bullet = 50, laser = 40

I would also consider buffing the standard vests melee to 40 (plus 10 melee jacket, do 30 on vest).

Those values would still be vulnerable to armour piercing (most AP is 30 to 40, so that brings the def values between 0 to 20). So I think that would be more fair.

[kevinz000]

Despite steelpoint memes, HoS armour COULD be better - most strong weapons (ie: weapons you can use reasonably use to murder someone without stuns) all have fuckhuge damage and often good AP anyway.
Even just better melee defence so the HoS can't be slipped on soap and beaten to death before he gets up by a greyshirt with a toolbox.

i remember when i beat down someone toolbox vs esword in hos armor
those days were fucking glorious
75% melee defense, armor pen wasn't a thing
7.5 damage per sword on hos armor, 10 damage to them via toolbox
aaahhhhh that was the life.

[Steelpoint]

That was one of the biggest reasons why armour was nerfed, the argument being a Energy Sword should not be forced to deal 15 or 20 swings to crit a armour (hos) user.

That argument is nullified now due to it having 40 or so AP which ignores practically all armour currently.

[Haevacht]

[youtube]2k0SmqbBIpQ[/youtube]
touching security

[Armhulen]

Make armor good again

[CPTANT]

(...)
touching security

An odd video to post, considering the armour NERFS were touching security in the first place.

[oranges]

If I were to propose a buff (IF) I would follow my old suggestion PR.

So go from this
melee = 30, bullet = 30, laser = 30
To this
melee = 50, bullet = 50, laser = 40

I would also consider buffing the standard vests melee to 40 (plus 10 melee jacket, do 30 on vest).

Those values would still be vulnerable to armour piercing (most AP is 30 to 40, so that brings the def values between 0 to 20). So I think that would be more fair.

The fact you're still trying to bring up a buff when Kor has already killed you in the nicest way possible is why you have the reputation you do

[Shaps-cloud]

We should rename the deathsquad armor after steelpoint because his skull is quite possibly the thickest substance known to man

[Haevacht]

(...)
touching security

An odd video to post, considering the armour NERFS were touching security in the first place.

where the fuck are your parents
who are your parents
im gonna call child protective services its time to stop

[Bombadil]

The time of the foundry comes. Steelpoint will be melted for trying to buff security again

[Steelpoint]

Difference between me talking about it and proposing it.

[NikNakFlak]

its still always you tho so

[ShadowDimentio]

Is you lot's best argument really "Steelpoint proposed it so we should deny it"?

[NikNakFlak]

no, arguments were put forward, we're mostly just talking about his reputation which stems from the arguments
did you read the thread

[Haevacht]

Is you lot's best argument really "Steelpoint proposed it so we should deny it"?

[youtube]2k0SmqbBIpQ[/youtube]
posting

[ShadowDimentio]

no, arguments were put forward, we're mostly just talking about his reputation which stems from the arguments
did you read the thread

I only read the good posts by the good posters

[NikNakFlak]

that was the dumbest thing I've ever read

[Haevacht]

that was the dumbest thing I've ever read

i guess you don't follow his rules then

[ShadowDimentio]

I see posts but I can't read them, someone help

[XDTM]

>armor is useless against stuns, buffing it will do nothing
>steelpoint trying to make sec op again

pick one

[Shaps-cloud]

The argument is that by making it harder and harder to kill someone by beating them to death, you push the game towards stuncuffing and then beating to death being the only valid options. If someone takes 20 hits to crit with a toolbox while it only takes one stunbaton/taser/ebow/whatever to pacify them, the toolbox and 95% of the other weapons on station are useless

[ShadowDimentio]

Stuns are already the name of the game though, straight up brawls virtually never happen outside of two greyshirts beating each other to death with toolboxes, and neither of them have armor.

If you're trying to beat someone to death either you're either already holding them still with a stun or you're just brawling because you fucked up your stun, people actually trying to kill sec without a good weapon like an esword or stun is virtually nonexistant because it already doesn't really work since they have stuns that'll fuck your life up if you're dumb enough to engage them without a plan.

Making sec really hard to kill with just dumb force would force people to play smarter and the only benefit it would incur to sec would allowing them to take some more risks and endure more wear and tear.

A good change overall IMO

[Alex Crimson]

Just remove ranged stuns. Job done. They are shit anyways.

[Incomptinence]

Nono shadow i got killed for beating off and officer with my emergency tank once omg how not work ided ided.

Oh and officer should be naked before any weapon i get as antag because... wanna green.

[Shaps-cloud]

If armor actually makes the difference in whether or not someone can kill you with an emergency oxygen tank when you have several weapons that can stun in one hit, you're even more retarded than whatever that strawman is supposed to be

[InsaneHyena]

>Have tasers
>Have stun batons
>Have flashbangs
>Can get away with literally anything, because crew knows you're not an antag
>Guys, we need to buff sec further

[kevinz000]

security doesn't need a buff the people playing security need a buff steelpoint
make it more fun to play, not fucking unstoppable as you're only buffing the shitcurity players.
90% of hitlercurity players are unrobust as shit and can be easily destroyed buff or not anyways.

[Steelpoint]

How do you make security more fun to play? That's the million dollar question.

[XDTM]

The general idea is to make them able to do something aside from seeking antags. To throw some random (maybe bad) ideas, the warden could manage weapon shipments to stock the armory in different ways, miscreants would give them a target that has to be arrested without just resorting to killing them outright, or some other stuff. Although it is hard to get them a gimmick while also keeping them free enough to be able to respond to emergencies.

[Steelpoint]

Only thing I can think of is give security some kind of meta objective to accomplish that has minimal impact on the crew and can be ignored in emergencies. Maybe they have their own lavaland esque level where they have to fight off mobs, maybe the "under maintenance" that is a randomly generated dungeon. Or they communicate with other stations and move chess pieces around a sector map. Maybe they set up a satellite network like the shield gen, or something.

If that's what you want to suggest that is.

[Yakumo_Chen]

If the security game were less centered around 'defeating powerful antags' and more around 'keeping the peace' this wouldn't be a problem, but that's something you'd need more RP for.

Security's main job is to fight antags, and usually from after 5-10 minutes on the station, any other job or role they could be providing will inevitably become a lower priority then 'stop the antag', because antags exist to 'win' the round (in most modes) or make life improbably hell for everyone else by murderbone / bombing / other things shitty antags do to guarantee a shuttle call in 20 minutes.

------------------
Preferably, we could have some kind of setup where the round is allowed to flourish for some amount of time (10-15 minutes) before antags are drawn so people can RP / do their jobs. Crew can get objectives when the shift starts.

-Assistants get round-start objectives which encourage them to some kind of goal. Obvious choices would be to either 'find an actual job or actually fucking assist people' or objective-encouraged greytide (encourage them to break some kind of law to encourage security to catch them. Maybe steal a tool from a department or get in a non-lethal fight with someone else).
--This gives security something to do (there will generally ALWAYS be greys goofing about). Objective-encouraged crime should be specific to actual departments, thus encouraging security to actually guard a department and not just patrol for antags and use the Brig as a base of operations which is what happens 90% of the time. Security can be rewarded for doing their jobs properly and assistants get an actual direction in rounds to start off with instead of knowing inevitably all of them will tide and make being Sec a living hell. Hell, some of them will have actual license to grief!

-Security needs some kind of reward for doing their job right. Adding and maintaining records, brigging people without killing them, maybe actually RPing out problems so law-breakers aren't encouraged from doing crime again.
--Security successfully catching an objective-encouraged criminal could remove the objective, for one, and give them a new objective to otherwise encourage or discourage being a griefing ass.

The system we have now is basically where Security will start off the shift having to arrest everyone that signed on as assistant since all they do is tide, then gulag them or whatever makes them go away and out of sec's hair, then some kind of actual antag will show up and kill everyone / robust security / generally make it unfun. As it is right now every round is just Security Death Match and if you lose then you're done for the shift and whoever killed you will take all your shit and use it to kill the rest of security.

Other important issues are toning down the stun based combat, but that's unfortunately a problem that will never be solved.

[Steelpoint]

Our stun combat system is a issue that would require a lot of coding and balancing to re-work, and I don't think anyone is willing to tackle that issue, at least someone that has the skills necessary to pull it off.

Delaying antag selection, at least for lower level antags like traitors and changelings, might be a interesting change, but I can't decree by myself if it'll be a good idea or bad.

[Yakumo_Chen]

Being brigged may need to be made more fun. As it is, sitting in a cell for any amount of time removes you from the game for that amount of time. While this is obvious in its use to discourage people from being tiding assholes, giving people reason to BE tiding assholes should also make their inevitable brig stay something more stimulating then waiting it out, and less obviously deadly then gulag. Most of the time the people who get put in the brig don't learn anything and only use it as an excuse to up the ante and harass security even more because they dared try to put a stop to their greytide. Some kind of minigame, enforced goal to be released, or other activity that should be done before they can go would make spending time with security actually not 100% boring and obnoxious and might further actual productivity of the station. Security can still give the option to just give them timed release but giving them the fun brig time would be far more heavily encouraged, especially if we encourage people to tide via objectives so their brig stay isn't shitty.

[Steelpoint]

Correct me if I'm wrong but on other codebases, like goon or bay, aren't higher level antags immune to ranged stuns to a degree? Hell I think most ranged stuns are only good for arresting station based personal.

[Yakumo_Chen]

(I thought I posted this but it isn't showing up)
Honestly I would rather see security armor buffed to encourage antags to do something besides try to murder them, since that's inevitably how things end up, and nobody really likes being murdered. Having less murder in general would be a good direction for the game to go in, honestly

Maybe antags as a whole need to be toned down, especially non-conversion modes like traitor and ling. Decrease the ease in which they can get mass-destruction devices (remove fucking syndie bombs), make it harder for them to go on a murderbone rampage by making it harder to kill security who will fight back, and encourage them to find a creative way to go about their business or use their assigned job to their advantage (and do actual, station productive work as a result, even if the end goal is nefarious).

As recompense, make it harder for security to kill antags in general. Nerf stuns, especially ranged stuns, so security has a harder time stopping antags outright, but since stuns are less effective on security too, it doesn't unbalance team antag modes.

[InsaneHyena]

Taser is pretty shit on bay not only against antags, but against pretty much everyone. I once defeated two security officers, naked and without a weapon.

[Steelpoint]

From what I recall most other code bases make ranged weapons extremely powerful but they make their armour very strong as compensation.

I dunno, this is a complicated issue.

[Yakumo_Chen]

I believe tasers on bay are pretty much the same thing as disablers on our system. Though, bay also has hitscan energy weapons as the default, except for tasers.

Bay armor is actually absurdly high value but that's only because being injured is far more crippling on bay - you can't just put a bandaid on any injury other then the most minor ones, and you're out of the round for good if you end up near crit far away from the action where you can't call for help. Even if you don't have any broken bones or organs, the pain will still cripple you to the point you aren't going anywhere, crit or not.

[Yakumo_Chen]

As it is this issue feels like the direct result of a constant arms race between antags and security. Nothing ever really gets nerfed as a whole unless it's to make people easier to kill, it's just power creep for everyone. I think everything needs to be kicked down a few pegs. The more damage everything does to everyone (especially security), the longer stuns last, the more things that can stun, the more people are encouraged to just murderbone every single round.

[Steelpoint]

While it's been a while but I think Goon is somewhat similar, though a bit less lax. Weapons deal insane damage, I think basic lasers deal 75 damage per round, and against unarmoured targets you can oft two shot someone if you're lucky. However lethals are more rare on station, I think only the Captain and HoS get reliable laser access. Also their armour has a very high soak value for damage. However their health system is a bit more simplified, though still more complex than ours.

If you wanted to 'start from scratch' the issue would be where is the 'start'? Do you only have two Lasers for the Captain and HoS? How far do you nerf security and antags?

[Yakumo_Chen]

IMO the simplest solution is to simply raise energy resistance on all armors. Give antags some form of natural energy resistance, which is possibly rewarded when antagonist objectives are completed (greentext is now encouraged too). The staying alive objective starts completed, thus already granting the reward.

Regular, griefing crew is still just as easy to detain and brig, but real threats will have an easier time getting away.

[Yakumo_Chen]

Possibly bullet resistance for non-energy stuns as well, for both antags and security. Actual, damaging bullets tend to have armor pen (or can be given more) to compensate.

This singlehandedly further encourages non-stun based combat, for all antagonists. While this doesn't stomp down on murderbone, since it will be harder for people to stun and therefore kill security, it does curb it.

[Yakumo_Chen]

Nerf stun batons, make them use more charge as a whole so you can't stunlock kill people with it like what always happens when someone gets hit with a harmbaton. They should be used for keeping people down long enough to cuff, not for anyone to beat anyone to death with no comeback ever.

[Steelpoint]

Stun Batons are one of the more consistant items among most servers. I think the only difference between our Batons and goon/bay is that over there if you use a Stun Baton in 'harm' intent you will instead stun yourself.

[DemonFiren]

Stun Batons are one of the more consistant items among most servers. I think the only difference between our Batons and goon/bay is that over there if you use a Stun Baton in 'harm' intent you will instead stun yourself.

I think on Bay they simply made stun batons deal 0 damage.

[oranges]

Nothing ever really gets nerfed as a whole unless it's to make people easier to kill, it's just power creep for everyone.

and people wonder why the maintainers are always wanting things prenerfed