robustin gang overhaul frankenstein's PR edition

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Mon May 29, 2017 4:39 am #300098

Bottom post of the previous page:

BeeSting12 wrote:This is my main doubt about it. You're basically turning it into a giant team death match, there's no way around that. At least previously there was a bare minimum of roleplay now it feels like it's taking the whole space station part of it away, like it's just a map for the TDM instead of a place for people to do their jobs while antagonists are fighting them.

This, exactly.

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Mon May 29, 2017 2:49 pm #300164

>Be security
>Get shot
Speedmerge the new PR please.

onleavedontatme · Mon May 29, 2017 2:52 pm

bandit wrote:
BeeSting12 wrote:This is my main doubt about it. You're basically turning it into a giant team death match, there's no way around that. At least previously there was a bare minimum of roleplay now it feels like it's taking the whole space station part of it away, like it's just a map for the TDM instead of a place for people to do their jobs while antagonists are fighting them.
This, exactly.

It was already a giant TDM except some people got shafted by the design because we were trying to pretend it wasn't.

May as well be honest with ourselves in what we are doing as long as we've insisted on bringing gang back. A TDM that admits it isn't SS13 and plays well is better than a TDM that pretends to be SS13 and plays poorly.

The Clowns Pocket · Mon May 29, 2017 3:34 pm

My only problem is how it outright removes sec.

Everything else is cool

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Mon May 29, 2017 3:58 pm #300184

>clown has a problem with sec removal

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Mon May 29, 2017 4:40 pm #300191

Kor wrote:May as well be honest with ourselves in what we are doing as long as we've insisted on bringing gang back. A TDM that admits it isn't SS13 and plays well is better than a TDM that pretends to be SS13 and plays poorly.

or... we could just remove gang? I didn't originally want gang to be removed but if the "solution" to fixing it is completely gutting what makes SS13 unique for the sake of shoehorning in a TDM mode that a lot of people wanted gone in the first place, then there's very little point.

(I'm starting to think gang is one of those modes that only works in high-RP, but then I'm also starting to think that of most modes tbh)

onleavedontatme · Mon May 29, 2017 5:17 pm

or... we could just remove gang?

We tried that, remember?

ShadowDimentio · Mon May 29, 2017 5:29 pm

We'll have to see how this goes in practice but I'm kinda with Bandit on this, what largely makes SS13 special is it's TTT but with a job to do besides shoot each other. This turns it into just TTT, but TDM.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon May 29, 2017 5:30 pm #300209

If gang is on rev levels of chance to occur then I think this will be fine.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Mon May 29, 2017 5:42 pm #300218

Kor wrote:
or... we could just remove gang?
We tried that, remember?

and quite a few people were pleased with that being the case

I don't mind trying to fix gang at all but if it ends up doubling down on "being a TDM" then what's the point? granted I'm not saying scrap it just yet, but this logic doesn't seem quite right to me - this scenario is admittedly a stretch but stungloves were removed long ago, if they somehow got back in you wouldn't shrug your shoulders and say "welp we removed them before but they're back now, nothing we can do"

ShadowDimentio · Mon May 29, 2017 5:44 pm

Well the people who wanted them gone probably wouldn't but plenty of people would be willing to try it again, especially if there were a bunch of changes with it.

XDTM · Post by **XDTM** » Mon May 29, 2017 6:36 pm #300265

With all this talk of TDM i keep thinking i saw my name in the posts

Dr_bee · Post by **Dr_bee** » Tue May 30, 2017 12:09 am #300383

Give the vigilante's the portals to recruit more people and not the gangs, it gives the gangs a reason to keep the vigilante's around as they will be their only source of recruits, currently vigilantes just get killed off after 5 minutes.

also, Make removing a tag instantly give a vigilante a bit of influence, and have them start with slippery soap as their only weapon.

this will make the vigilante's have a purpose as the basis of recruitment for the gangs as well as a check on gangs taking more territory than they can hold, vigilante's arent really made for holing up and keeping an area clean, they dont have the items for it.

onleavedontatme · Tue May 30, 2017 2:36 am

Qbopper wrote:
Kor wrote:
or... we could just remove gang?
We tried that, remember?
and quite a few people were pleased with that being the case

I don't mind trying to fix gang at all but if it ends up doubling down on "being a TDM" then what's the point? granted I'm not saying scrap it just yet, but this logic doesn't seem quite right to me - this scenario is admittedly a stretch but stungloves were removed long ago, if they somehow got back in you wouldn't shrug your shoulders and say "welp we removed them before but they're back now, nothing we can do"

If maintainers were getting permabanned for trying to remove stun gloves then yeah I'd probably shrug my shoulders and say it isn't my fault or problem anymore.

Post by **oranges** » Tue May 30, 2017 3:31 am #300432

I got permabanned for removing gang? I guess I missed the memo.

D&B · Post by **D&B** » Tue May 30, 2017 4:21 am #300443

Gang was brought back on a whim with no forethought besides "I had fun once with it."

Yes bring your fucking polls out if you want you know what I said is right.

onleavedontatme · Tue May 30, 2017 4:52 am

D&B wrote:Gang was brought back on a whim with no forethought besides "I had fun once with it."

Yes bring your fucking polls out if you want you know what I said is right.

Poll was unironically rigged by having two different "yes" options

oranges wrote:I got permabanned for removing gang? I guess I missed the memo.

D&B · Post by **D&B** » Tue May 30, 2017 4:56 am #300454

You know the worst thing is if you want as an admin to push a less TDM vibe to the server you're better off axing gang but robustin doesn't deserve to get fucked by the 4th time due to poor handling and re entering of a badly conceived gamemode.

onleavedontatme · Tue May 30, 2017 4:57 am

Robustin lived a hard life

Oldman Robustin · Tue May 30, 2017 5:21 am

I am not advocating that we slash traitor/cult/whatever we consider non-TDM for Gang War. I would be happy seeing it between 6-9%, ideally at the expense of wizard.

I lost the novel I was going to write here so I'll just sum it up with:

I've had some great moments that show what the mode can offer, vigilante play offers paranoia, ad hoc alliances, and just a ton of crazy fights... I got a few other vigilantes to join me in the last round despite having no way to guarantee that we were all loyal. We teamed up not because a giant HUD indicator said we should, but simply out of the sheer chaos of the round. I had some great moments with that group but it was cut short by Cyber Gang snowballing and abusing a bug that gave them an almost insurmountable lead.

The difficulty is primarily in tweaking the numbers of a mode that I don't have much experience with (compared to cult where my experience was probably second to none) and resolving tensions between mechanics that are necessary for a mode like this. On one hand I want a way for players who got ganked <5m into the round to still participate in a meaningful way, but I also need to keep life and death meaningful and not make it feels like a respawning highlander round. I need to have vigilantes be a threat capable of toppling the gangs without making them into a 4th gang like security was. I have to reward gangs for tagging turf and defending their territory but I also have to give other gangs a fair way of reversing the advantage that a bigger gang possesses.

I have a lot of levers I can pull but unfortunately both rounds were marred by major bugs so its difficult to assess. Nevertheless I've got several big changes being committed as I type this that will slow the mode down a little and level the playing field between vigilantes and gangsters and remove the most obnoxious gameplay.

I'm still optimistic that this round will shape up into something really enjoyable, but I would never advocate that it sit over 10% of our rounds.

ShadowDimentio · Tue May 30, 2017 5:35 am

Don't touch percentages besides taking some away from traitor and giving it to gang.

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Tue May 30, 2017 6:42 am #300491

taking some away from traitor

Heresy. Clock cult should bear this burden.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Tue May 30, 2017 6:50 am #300494

InsaneHyena wrote:
taking some away from traitor
Heresy. Clock cult should bear this burden.

it's cuck cult
not cucked cult

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Tue May 30, 2017 4:47 pm #301019

D&B wrote:Gang was brought back on a whim with no forethought besides "I had fun once with it."

Yes bring your fucking polls out if you want you know what I said is right.

I'm pretty sure Nostradamus himself (a version of Nostradamus who didn't suck ass) could not have predicted the leap from "Let's put gang back in rotation" to "LET'S GET RID OF SECURITY AND THE ARMORY AND THE AI AND, EFFECTIVELY, THE SPACE STATION SETTING."

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue May 30, 2017 4:54 pm #301023

Would gang be improved if it just spawned everyone in the CTF Arena, or better yet just make a symmetrical station that is designed to look like a space station but is actually a battle arena.

ShadowDimentio · Tue May 30, 2017 5:43 pm

InsaneHyena wrote:
taking some away from traitor
Heresy. Clock cult should bear this burden.

I'm also okay with this

BeeSting12 · Post by **BeeSting12** » Tue May 30, 2017 5:47 pm #301044

To be honest I liked gangs before all of these changes. Call me crazy, but I think it was just as good as clock cult if not better, and definitely better than wizard by miles. I didn't want it every round- I don't want any mode every round, even the most extended loving person would agree that extended gets dull after it being there round after round. (which used to be an issue in bagil's config for a while)

I've had some fun times playing gangs, some bad rounds too, but the majority were pretty good. I still think that removing security is a mistake. It gives the gangs a common enemy, like that time me and my metafri- I mean person I spawned next to and tried penning, married our gangs and fought security eventually domming in perma and calling it both of our victory. Actually that's a good story I'll post it sometime, but besides the point.

This isn't "everyone is an antagonist" station, this is /tg/station and we should start acting like it instead of trying to make the game a shitty 2D battlefield.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Tue May 30, 2017 5:56 pm #301047

why does the forum brigade hate TDM

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Tue May 30, 2017 5:57 pm #301048

but /tg/station is going to be a shitty 2d battlefield
this is the future you chose

captain sawrge · Tue May 30, 2017 6:01 pm

iamgoofball wrote:why does the forum brigade hate TDM

4 TDM modes in rotation and 3/4 have dumb feature bloat and barely work

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Tue May 30, 2017 6:04 pm #301055

do you really think i'll run out of lizards before you run out of babies
because this is what it's gonna turn into

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Tue May 30, 2017 6:14 pm #301059

Or we can kick both of you out of the thread for shitposting without even playing the goddamn mode.

BeeSting12 · Post by **BeeSting12** » Tue May 30, 2017 6:14 pm #301060

iamgoofball wrote:why does the forum brigade hate TDM

There's nothing wrong with TDM, but taking the space station part out and just making the station a fully destructible shell for the team death match instead of people trying to do their jobs while antagonists cause chaos and eventually the whole place breaks down. Taking out an entire job detracts from this part of space station 13 imo and shouldn't be done to "balance" a mode.

Kel · Post by **Kel** » Tue May 30, 2017 6:32 pm #301080

vigilantes are shit
takes way too long to be able to buy soap to do your literal most basic function
gangsters get all their weapons within a few minutes
vigilantes get literally nothing for 10 minutes

edit: actually its the gangs that are way too strong
they get knives near instantly and i just witnessed a band of 3 spray everything in the main halls, buy a dom, buy a turret, and win the round with a 15 minute blitzkrieg, too fast for anyone else to buy any amount of equipment that could compete with the turret

Hatfish · Post by **Hatfish** » Tue May 30, 2017 6:47 pm #301082

I just watched a gang of 3-5 people successfully dominate a station with about 30 crew 16 minutes from round start. They tagged everything without much resistance from the other gangs (who were mostly killing each other in the halls), dropped their dominator in the testing lab and set up 2 machine gun turrets at both entrances and just shot everyone who tried to get to it. The end result was an unimpeded domination under 3 minutes from setting up the dominator in the first place.
What I've gathered from this is that A: nobody understands how important tagging is now, and B: machine gun turrets are ridiculously OP.

FantasticFwoosh · Tue May 30, 2017 7:09 pm

Portable turrets are my most favourite feature, it should be atomised and then worked to be part of any military installations. We could re-create io-jima on lavaland using portable turrets & sandbags.

Im slightly miffed to see people not actually use portals for their intended purpose but to basically provide a way to block damage.

Post by **Armhulen** » Tue May 30, 2017 7:14 pm #301093

The turrets are extremely cool, I really hope they don't get nerfed.

a good centcom meme would be the manned turret but with fireball bullets oh shit

D&B · Post by **D&B** » Tue May 30, 2017 7:41 pm #301108

Wtf how come I didn't get a baby

BeeSting12 · Post by **BeeSting12** » Tue May 30, 2017 7:45 pm #301110

Hatfish wrote:I just watched a gang of 3-5 people successfully dominate a station with about 30 crew 16 minutes from round start. They tagged everything without much resistance from the other gangs (who were mostly killing each other in the halls), dropped their dominator in the testing lab and set up 2 machine gun turrets at both entrances and just shot everyone who tried to get to it. The end result was an unimpeded domination under 3 minutes from setting up the dominator in the first place.
What I've gathered from this is that A: nobody understands how important tagging is now, and B: machine gun turrets are ridiculously OP.

And C, without security to keep the gang in check, this will happen regularly.

FantasticFwoosh · Tue May 30, 2017 7:49 pm

Like hell what is security going to do anyway, bullet proof clothing just lets you soak up more hits.

Its not like lasers which can be reflected & diverted away.

ShadowDimentio · Tue May 30, 2017 8:06 pm

Reminder that grenade type weapons and flamethrowers are hilariously effective against turret installments because to dodge it the turret guy has to get out of the turret and run away.

BeeSting12 · Post by **BeeSting12** » Tue May 30, 2017 8:28 pm #301130

FantasticFwoosh wrote:Like hell what is security going to do anyway, bullet proof clothing just lets you soak up more hits.

Its not like lasers which can be reflected & diverted away.

it's not like security starts off with weapons to counter the gang threat or anything...

Kel · Post by **Kel** » Wed May 31, 2017 12:56 am #301239

this mode either never ends in its current state or ends before it even starts

theres a sweet spot in between where most of the crew are still alive and mostly everyone is on equal footing for about 2 minutes and then someone places a dom and everyone dies

timeline of enjoyment from my perspective
start - shitty - being converted against your will is never fun tbh
after roundstart - shitty - gangbangers have a knife and a spraycan by this point, vigilantes have nothing
10 minutes in - fun - gangbangers wont have their super endgame gear yet but have weapons and everyone is fighting, vigilantes still dont exist
15 minutes in - shitty - someone placed a dom and everyone either died fighting for it and the round ended or everyone died and the dom did aswell
15+ minutes in - nuke the station - nothing gets done for the rest of the round as it devolves into a pseduo rev holdout-style of gameplay (that everyone hates and is super shitty!) but there is a 3rd faction maybe

minor criticism: since all pretense of stealth has been figuratively and literally been obliterated, i dont think the conversion tool should be a stealthy pen anymore

Kel · Post by **Kel** » Wed May 31, 2017 1:21 am #301248

another suggestion: make the act of obliterating a gangster item automatically dedicate you to the life of a vigilante instead it being locked behind 10 influence

vcordie · Post by **vcordie** » Wed May 31, 2017 2:43 am #301263

Kor wrote:It is not like he can make it worse

You were wrong. You were so fucking wrong.

Let's just talk about a few things about new gangs (gangacoplyse)
A. it telegraphs the round type fucking IMMEDIATELY. there's zero paranoia whatsoever in this game of paranoia.
B. it removes core components of the game to jury rig its own fucking team deathmatch bullshit.
C. Vigilanties either die in the first 3 minutes because they spawn with no weapons, or become insanely overpowered. They don't respawn however.
D. Respawning is bad, mmkay. Just period. It encourages shit play from people and is just a way to make the team death match drag out longer. With endlessly respawning reinforcements, the vigilanties just get ground down till they no longer exist.
E. It's literally validhunter versus gangs the mode. TDM.
F. did I mention the validhunters can get admin mechs and admin guns like rocket launchers?
G. the mounted machine gun turret is prett yfucking cool, I'll give you that. Too bad it's a bit op and glitchy as all fuck right now
H. Do i even need to tell you why just turning the game into stupid pvp is a bad idea? Some of us are here for more interaction then just clicking on sprites to render them horizontal
I. I fucking hate you robustin
J. allowing gangs to respawn fucking defeats the purpose of having the shuttle autocall, now doesn't it? since it'll never reach that point thanks to reinforcements...meaning you'll constantly have a fucking stalemate.
H. speaking of stalemates, they somehow are even worse when everyone has high powered weapons that just blow any latejoiner away. Fucking 10/10 balance there.
K. Both servers voted that they hate this new version of gangs. Myself and a couple others personally leave for hte other server whenever its testmerged. When it's testmerged on both I just stop playing. that's how NOT FUN this bullshit is. IF i wanted Team Deathmatch I'd play colonial marines, except I wouldn't because colonial marines actually enforces a level of rp we don't
M. Speaking of rule enforcement, vigilantes don't fucking count as antags so if they get some collateral damage in with their stupidly op guns, they get bwoinked and potentially banned. For doing what they need to do. Fucking thanks, cunt.
N. My sodium levels are too goddamn high for this bullshit.
O. I would rather 24/7 wizard then this bullshit
P. I would rather 24/7 raging mages then this bullshit
Q. I would rather 24/7 BULLSHIT RAGING MAGES then this bullshit.
T. Truthfully, I'd rather dig my eyeballs out with a rusty spork then this bullshit.
U. The gangs can just drop a dom and a MG turret in the time it takes you to earn soap as a vigilante, which means this goddamn gamemode is totally fucking out of balance. The only relevant parties in gangs is other fucking gangs, because vigilanties wont have any fucking weapons to fight by the time the first dominator gets dropped.

Kel · Post by **Kel** » Wed May 31, 2017 3:05 am #301271

he's dead, jim.

vcordie · Post by **vcordie** » Wed May 31, 2017 3:19 am #301274

I'm still mad.

Post by **oranges** » Wed May 31, 2017 3:23 am #301276

Why did you do H twice and skip L?

Post by **oranges** » Wed May 31, 2017 3:32 am #301277

Kor wrote:
D&B wrote:Gang was brought back on a whim with no forethought besides "I had fun once with it."

Yes bring your fucking polls out if you want you know what I said is right.
Poll was unironically rigged by having two different "yes" options

oranges wrote:I got permabanned for removing gang? I guess I missed the memo.

haha he lifted it

no balls

Oldman Robustin · Wed May 31, 2017 3:39 am

Ive had more paranoia with vigilantes than I've had in all the other GW iterations combined. With GW you just sat around waiting to get penned or implanted and nobody had a reason to fuck with you, and you no reason to fuck with them because who gives a shit if their wall has some new graffiti on it.

I won't bother reading the rest but its clear some people have acquired the fantastic ability to understand every nuance of a mode from a couple rounds.

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Wed May 31, 2017 4:39 pm #301434

Vigilante is just forcing everyone to validhunt