[POLL]Should large Syndicate bombs be restricted to nukeops?

[Jalleo]

Bottom post of the previous page:

SNIP

There is currently over 50 people on the server right now do you seriously think a vote of which only 30 people said no speaks for everyone. Please make a actual proper reason for why bombs should stay I actually challenege you to.

[Scott]

Do you really think the opinion of one coder is above everybody else? Because that's pretty much the philosophy of coderbus, the community opinion doesn't matter. If the people who play on the server want to get involved with changes and whatnot, they can register on and use the COMMUNITY FORUMS. Making ingame polls for these things is ridiculous. Making big changes without community consent is also ridiculous.

But hey, I must be the mad man here.

[Jalleo]

Do you really think the opinion of one coder is above everybody else? Because that's pretty much the philosophy of coderbus, the community opinion doesn't matter. If the people who play on the server want to get involved with changes and whatnot, they can register on and use the COMMUNITY FORUMS. Making ingame polls for these things is ridiculous. Making big changes without community consent is also ridiculous.

But hey, I must be the mad man here.

I do not say that a opinion of one coder is best but with designing a game I think ya might want to go and watch some game design stuff yourself go and watch extra credits please. Before you do anymore posts

[lumipharon]

There's literally no reason to remove the mini bomb, as it is not used to cause destruction in the same manner the large bombs are. If you ARE using mini bombs, it would literally be easier and cheaper to use c4.

Syndie bombs SHOULDN'T be outright removed outright from traitor, purely from a meta point of view. Making more ways to easily meta round types is fucking boring as shit. Leave the bomb in the bundle, stick a time restriction or whatever, but don't outright remove it. Also, defusing bombs is fun.

And whether this is for the greater good or not, and although the majority don't always know what's best for them, treating them like shit and telling them their opinions are worthless, is a really cancerous way of thinking, and just causes more anal angst, like the shit that led to the NT split.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

• Removing the bomb from general traitor inventory, replace with a bomb construction kit requires certain resources to make a bomb. So a traitor can still make a single bomb, but has to make more of an effort, but is not at the level of complexity/equipment requirement of toxins.
  Won't stop Oldmen Robustins who try to do it every time they get traitor
• Increase the TC cost of a bomb from 5 TCs to around 7-8 TCs.
  I believe it's been increased to 6 which I think is fine, considering that singuloth beacon is 7 and much more destructive
• Reworking the stations layout to make systems more redundant, and spaced out. Meaning it would take more than a single bomb to knock out critical infrastructure. Or for their to be backup systems in place.
  It's being done. It's a very harmless, but also hard and inefficient way.
• Making calling the evac shuttle take longer. Such as a active process of aligning and setting up a communications dish, can make it harder for a single person to call an evacuation.
  No, this will make situations where shuttle is really needed (such as every nuke ops round ever) much worse. Automated tracking is pretty much impossible.
• Make the process of fixing equipment and breaches easier, such as a easier to use Metal Foam agent, more equipment lying around to repair systems, in game manuals on repairing machines, etc.
  Yes, I was gonna suggest this a well. Engineering needs some love.

There's also this.

The general direction of coderbus of doing things is to remove things that aren't broken and add things that are broken IN MY OPINION

ftfy

They also don't care about the community at all, you can stop trying.

Of course, coderbus is a bunch of kids that don't have anything better to do other than troll some internet community by spending their time on what community doesn't want to see.

Fucking obvious, right?

[Jalleo]

SNIP

I agree with this pretty much entirely apart from that mini bomb bit why dont we merge the two literally it would make more sense. Especially since it means better options and more usage.

Edit: I mean the C4 and minbomb if anyone was wondering.

[Reimoo]

So if the community opinion doesn't matter, why do we have a feedback forum? Why even have a forum at all? The only people who have direct influence on the game's development clearly don't want to listen to criticism, so why bother having a dicussion?

[Lo6a4evskiy]

You're acting as if feedback has to be taken into account all the time and is always correct. It's neither.

[Ikarrus]

I personally feel feedback is important, but that's just what it is: Feedback. Opinions. You're welcome to speak your opinion but that doesn't mean we'll be taking them as orders.

It's up to the developer how they want to interpret it. Different developers will have different approaches to this.

We've had this argument time and time again but nothing is really going to change here. Ultimately, the developers will do with the game what they feel is the best. Players who do not like their direction can either make their own fork or find another server to play.

SS13 is not a for-profit game. We're not focused on maximizing our audience. We're focused on what we, the developers, feel is best for the game.

[Scott]

The ludicrous thing here is that you are genuinely serious.

[Incomptinence]

I don't think anyone said it was a for profit game or they were giving you orders. Real curious where these coders have been coming from if they were never part of the audience though. Maybe they meditate in the wilderness until they come back with little sprite men dancing in their heads.

[NikNakFlak]

I think the easiest solution would be to make the lowest possible time to set a syndicate bomb some absurd amount. Right now, the lowest you can set a bomb is 60 seconds. Just change that to two or three minutes.

[Aranclanos]

Please stop claiming that we're not taking feedback and that we're assholes, it's really unfair when the PR hasn't been merged yet. Everything it's still being discussed with feedback all over the place, stop focusing on how we're not paying attention or care, because it's not true.
Also if you focus on a small joke that I made over the gigantic post stating my opinion on the subject, maybe you should re-think on what you're doing.

Focus on the bombs.

[Kuraudo]

Please stop claiming that we're not taking feedback and that we're assholes, it's really unfair when the PR hasn't been merged yet. Everything it's still being discussed with feedback all over the place, stop focusing on how we're not paying attention or care, because it's not true.
Also if you focus on a small joke that I made over the gigantic post stating my opinion on the subject, maybe you should re-think on what you're doing.

Focus on the bombs.

We did. Right there: http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic. ... =75#p27427
I have nothing more to say.

[MisterPerson]

The time lock is stupid and until a better solution is thought up, I'm still pro-removal.

[Steelpoint]

I think we can all admit that the way the proposal was put forward was bad.

Personally I believe giving engineering better tools and in game manuals would be a great approach.

[mrpain]

I think we can all admit that the way the proposal was put forward was bad.

Personally I believe giving engineering better tools and in game manuals would be a great approach.

Right before the website swap we had in game manuals that would open a little wiki window right in game. Very convenient.

It would be nice if we could bring those back.

[Fragnostic]

Yes, I like the bomb assembly kit idea. You get shit that looks sketchy as fuck for a person to have. Little bottles of acetone, hydrogen peroxide, and sulfuric acid(maybe make so that you have to work with chemist for acid?) to make TATP and put that compound in flour to make potent C4-like explosive.Or you get a 'TTV' with an oxygen tank full of superheated oxygen, and all you need is another tank(oxygen for stealth) full of plasma to make an explosion. Maybe even powders or casings that have some explosive mixes, but one needs something else to deal the deal. Imagine being given timer chemgrenades with one bluespace beaker full of potassium and an empty bluespace beaker. In perma, you fill the other one in the sink and complete the assembly. Something that dissuades the little instant gratification attitude. I mean, this is why they do it. You can buy two bombs for these 10 TC and set them off instantly, but nooooooo TOO MUCH WORK so I'll just wrench them down or drag them to the bridge.

The TTV suggestion, I'm imagining is a CyberSun corporation valve with the oxygen tank already heated and attached but is unremovable due to design, so that you need a full tank of room temp plasma in order to have a max cap boom. Maybe it doesn't have to be a real reaction, just the bomb will not yield a maxcap explosion unless there are the required moles of plasma in the tank.

[Scott]

I highly disagree with buying incomplete equipment with TC, unless it costs 1 or 2 TC. The point of the uplink is to provide whatever tools the agent needs to do his mission, not to give him things he could already get on station by just breaking and entering or infiltrating a department.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Well, you have a point, but not all equipment should give results on its own. For example, singularity beacon, which is 7 TC, requires you to actually have singularity loose.

[Scott]

But you can't get that any other way.

[Subtle]

Love Syndibombs and won't be glad to see them go but folks have to admit they're a one-trick pony.

Nobody assigns signals to the wires, rigs elaborate trigger/detonate traps, uses them to hold hostages or even bothers to wrench them down 99% of the time. These are the uses for them that are "fun," and indeed what they were intended for instead of blowing up telecomms/gravgen/bridge for the 600th round. (Yes, you're wrong if you disagree) I'm incredibly anti senseless-chaos and to put it plainly those who just drop them and forget only have themselves to blame for the inevitable removal. That really shitty validkill attitude some people of this server seem to have is just going to keep killing alternatives because they can't be trusted with 'em.

(Again I'd point out the underlying relationship between the rules letting people be shit/anti-fun and us losing nice things, but that's not this thread.)

That bitching having been done I must ask what sin minibombs committed? They're hardly a blip and you can get the same function for a third of the cost in one or two bricks of C4. I mean, you can get the same function of a syndibomb (instant shuttle-calls) for a fraction of the cost as well but that's again another story.

[bandit]

I think we can all admit that the way the proposal was put forward was bad.

Personally I believe giving engineering better tools and in game manuals would be a great approach.

Right before the website swap we had in game manuals that would open a little wiki window right in game. Very convenient.

It would be nice if we could bring those back.

I think these broke because of the various hosting/URL changes to the wiki.

[Scott]

Love Syndibombs and won't be glad to see them go but folks have to admit they're a one-trick pony.

Nobody assigns signals to the wires, rigs elaborate trigger/detonate traps

Probably because it's pure luck to mess with the wires until you learn them and one mistake and you're in pieces. Other than suspiciously asking the Security to let you practice bomb defusing, there's no way to learn the wires safely. A paper with wiring instructions that revealed the wire configuration would be great, and it could come with the bomb after using the beacon. I sure would use bombs a lot more if I could control them better, but as it is, whenever I get a bomb (which is not often) I limit myself to activating it and wrenching it and leaving the area, maybe put some effort into hiding it.

[Incoming]

Love Syndibombs and won't be glad to see them go but folks have to admit they're a one-trick pony.

Nobody assigns signals to the wires, rigs elaborate trigger/detonate traps

Probably because it's pure luck to mess with the wires until you learn them and one mistake and you're in pieces. Other than suspiciously asking the Security to let you practice bomb defusing, there's no way to learn the wires safely. A paper with wiring instructions that revealed the wire configuration would be great, and it could come with the bomb after using the beacon. I sure would use bombs a lot more if I could control them better, but as it is, whenever I get a bomb (which is not often) I limit myself to activating it and wrenching it and leaving the area, maybe put some effort into hiding it.

There is a way to 100% safely learn wires in a syndibomb and it is not that complicated, it's just that people seem to have not picked up on it:

Pulse wires on a inactive syndibomb to reveal their function:
*"The bolts spin in place for a moment" = Unbolt on cut
*"The bomb chirps" = delay timer on pulse
*"The bomb buzzes ominously" = rush timer on pulse/explode on cut (can be pulsed multiple times to get timers as short as 10 seconds)
*[No message] = The explosion wire (where you attach the signaler for on demand explosions)

*"You hear the bomb start ticking!" = The defuse on cut wire
If you pulse the defuse wire the bomb will start ticking and testing won't be safe anymore, HOWEVER all you have to do to stop the bomb is cut the wire you just pulsed. Then cut and mend all wires to fix the defusal and continue with testing if need be.

Edit: also syndibombs don't have identical wires, so be careful if you ever have to test two in one round

[Scott]

So what is your plan for when you pulse the explosion wire? Unless it doesn't detonate at that point, which I didn't know.

[Incoming]

So what is your plan for when you pulse the explosion wire? Unless it doesn't detonate at that point, which I didn't know.

the explosion wire only explodes if the timer is ticking, it's harmless otherwise

[Scott]

Need a god damned instruction manual to figure this shit out. Who in their right mind is gonna tamper with wires of a bomb to know this?

I shall be using bombs now.

[lumipharon]

But that's pretty self explainatory.... Eh.

Also using bombs properly is great. One time my target was the virologist, I had a syndie bomb, camera bug and something else I forget. I dropped the bomb in a room in mint, figured out the wires,set up the signaller etc. I then used m universal camera bug to verify exactly where the viro was, put the bomb literally on the otherside of a wall from him, activated the bomb, rand off and triggered it. But then nothing happened. Confused, I ran back, just in time for the SUSPICIOUSLY DELAYED remote signal toactivate, killing me (and the viro). Was pretty good, regardless.

Also one time a traitor anchored a syndie bomb outside the brig. I grabbed the bomb suit and tool box as warden, ran out, to look at the bomb. 14 seconds on the clock, no multitool, fuck it, lets go. First wire bolts, 2nd wire defused, woo.

[kosmos]

Syndicate bombs are usually not even used in the pursuit of success. There are an assortment of other tools that do that better. My issue is when they are used to end the round early.

What if we encouraged players to fix the destruction rather than baby the actual job role play? Recall that shuttle.

Again, these things just simply do not happen with our players. The shuttle is called the moment anything of importance is bombed. There's rarely any effort made to repair any significant damage to the station. Player behavior is something we cannot easily influence without coding solutions, which is what this PR is.

How about Crew Objectives? Why wouldn't these work? But again, I don't know much about coding, but clearly just removing things isn't a good option. Instead, encourage people through giving them greentext (many of our players seem to love playing just for the greentext) from repairing the station, cleaning the station, researching and updating machines, keeping players in round.
This might be a huge amount of work, but imho it would add a huge amount of overall quality to the rounds, without removing anything from the game.

[Mandurrrh]

Syndicate bombs are usually not even used in the pursuit of success. There are an assortment of other tools that do that better. My issue is when they are used to end the round early.

What if we encouraged players to fix the destruction rather than baby the actual job role play? Recall that shuttle.

Again, these things just simply do not happen with our players. The shuttle is called the moment anything of importance is bombed. There's rarely any effort made to repair any significant damage to the station. Player behavior is something we cannot easily influence without coding solutions, which is what this PR is.

How about Crew Objectives? Why wouldn't these work? But again, I don't know much about coding, but clearly just removing things isn't a good option. Instead, encourage people through giving them greentext (many of our players seem to love playing just for the greentext) from repairing the station, cleaning the station, researching and updating machines, keeping players in round.
This might be a huge amount of work, but imho it would add a huge amount of overall quality to the rounds, without removing anything from the game.

The end of round reports do this! It scores everything from research done to how clean the station is and then gives an overall score for the crew saying "promotions for everyone" to "you're all fired"

[Ezel]

Like how they say in gibbed
When the station is destroyed
Promotions for everyone
And when the station isn't destroyed a lot of corpses dead ais
A pure waste of oxygen

[Silavite]

Instead of arguing about this for another half dozen pages, how about we actually TEST this on the server? If it gets the desired effect, good; if it doesn't, revert and try something else; if it does but has undesirable side effects (which is most likely in my opinion), revert and try something related to the bombs but not removing them, like the 6 TC idea.

[Aranclanos]

It's everything on hold because the antag numbers are being changed with server configuration, so it wouldn't be fair to do it.

[Ikarrus]

I saved syndicate bombs guys where is my medal.

[Kuraudo]

Couldn't resist.

[Aranclanos]

The antags numbers are back to default, we can go back at discussing this, I though it would take longer.

[Kuraudo]

It's already discussed. People won't really post in this topic anymore because everyone already stated their opinion, which is by an majority: Don't restrict the syndicate bombs to nuke ops.

[Incoming]

I'm still not really seeing the shitbombing people were talking about. Maybe the cost 6 and SMES move were enough

[Ikarrus]

# of traitors were reduced as well. I'd say that probably had more impact than anything else.

The bombings don't seem so bad any more. For now, at least.

[Incomptinence]

Unless you literally halved the number of traitors the 1 tc cost increase probably had a bigger effect on syndibombings. Hey why miss a chance to celebrate preemptive redundancy though?

[Ikarrus]

Unless you literally halved the number of traitors

Not quite, but very close.

[Incomptinence]

Reduced to 1 in 8 I guess? The rate of the wonderful newling mode beloved by all that certainly isn't a near extended mess?

[Ikarrus]

I wouldn't want to divulge how the scaling exactly works since it's meta information most players don't really need to know, but the gist of it is that the higher the population is, the smaller the antag:crew ratio will be.

[Incomptinence]

Hmm let's see.

Code: Select all

num_traitors = max(1, min( round(num_players()/(config.traitor_scaling_coeff*scale_modifier*2))+2

Scale modifier is one for traitor current Traitor Scaling Coefficient is 6 let's assume player numbers are ooh 40 and afterward it adds two and the minimum is one.
So for 40 that is ooh 5.333333333333333 round to 5, so one in 8 at 40 pop.

[Ikarrus]

I guess I just shouldn't have said anything.

The last week or so the coefficients were actually at 8, which is why the station environment has been relatively stable.

[Incomptinence]

Roughly graphed it

Spoiler:

Tattors is the hard numbers limit on traitors. Ratio is number of crew to traitors, stuff like antag protected positions can obviously mess with this at lowpop. Axes go a bit negative because hey this free program only shows its axes labels that way, yes I do know the round needs at least one person!

[Ikarrus]

Aran version: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/831 ... 43-fix.png

[Incomptinence]

Actually you have rounding function so the actual values are not pretty like that but yeah.

[Ikarrus]

Yeah, we can't very well have 6 and a half traitors now, can we?

[mrpain]

If you do decide to make a change, can you at least wait until drones are converted to tgcode? Assuming that is still in the works, I think keeping the station maintained and repaired will be a lot easier with the drone system.