Changelings got nerfed. Again.

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Kuraudo
 
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Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Kuraudo » Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:20 pm #28768

Since you can't know shit about the new coding changes without being in github, i want to inform you of the new changeling nerf.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/4622
- A new Hivemind Communication power is required to be purchased before the changeling can use the changeling channel (:g)
Changelings without the Communication power can still faintly sense if other changelings are speaking through hivemind, but not who or what they are saying.
- Hivemind DNA exchanges also require this power to be purchased first
- Changelings will be told their changeling name when they are made changelings.


Changeling communication, and teamplay, become optionnal. And still, they almost never win. I rarely saw the changeling rampages people are talking about in the github topic, and the insane amount of strange objectives, combined to the high population of the main server, make changeling hard to play.
I'm not a play-to-win dude but when you see redtext everywhere at the end of a ling round, you know there is a gameplay problem. No need to aggravate it even more.
With five DNA slots, spending one on the hivemind communication is ridiculous.
When is this nerfing streak going to stop ?
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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Ikarrus » Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:26 pm #28769

If changelings need a buff, then we should give them one in another form.

Free hivemind communication doesn't scale well. High-pop changeling can get ridiculous.

I honestly just wanted to remove it entirely.

If you feel that changelings are underpowered, ideas for actual buffs are welcome.
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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Scott » Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:19 pm #28777

Then remove it instead of pretending anybody is going to evolve hivemind chat.

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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Incomptinence » Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:20 pm #28778

You wanted to totally remove it? It shows, you might as well have.

If by not scale well you mean they were terrified and on the rare chance they did share they likely did it so they could kill each other, sure correct you are right.

Honestly this addresses a situation so rare I had not even heard about it occurring with newling. Then again ling is all about suffering for the sake of tiny probability scenarios scare mongered by imbalanced demagogues.

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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby leibniz » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:24 pm #28803

Hivemind was one of the unique defining characteristics of newling and probably the only redeeming one.

A nice buff would be removing the debraining objective, it's just shit.
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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Kuraudo » Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:38 pm #28822

You coders are just not taking into account the server population when you make your changes.
When you're playing an antag role in +40 populated server, the station is a global entity. In the days of oldling, i used to set my sights on A, ambush him and absorb, being careful not being caught by B.
Newling is all about finding efficient ways to neutralize A without him yelling "HALP LING MAINT". And the newling doesn't have a way to disable someone. In a game where combat revolves around stun, it's a shame. Parasting has gone down the drain, cryosting and shrieks are a joke. The armblade is weaker than an esword and those last three gameplay elements are a dead givaway that someone is a ling.
Hours ago i was caught by an understaffed security as a ling. They didn't saw me absorb anyone. I was just a suspect because i had two IDs on me. I finished the round in custody. That's how hard it is.

Playing changeling became hard as fuck, both in terms of objectives (with the stupid "debrain this fucker, or steal 5000 millions gallons of plasma") The coders butchered the role for the sake of the victim's fun, but all it made is forcing the changelings to take no risks since they have no sure-fire way of disabling a human, resulting in extended-like situations. In the end, this is not fun for the ling, neither the crew.

The changeling became a sub-par antagonist, outclassed by wizards, nuke ops, traitors and double agents.
I have some suggestions, but i doubt the coders will even consider them, since it means "going back to the old ways".
- I want the parasting back, but you're surely not going to do that, even if months of gameplay proves that the changeling rounds will benefit from it's return.
- Neurotoxic Spit anyone ? Something like the ebow that results in a knockdown and tox damage.
- One additionnal DNA slot every time you absorb someone, giving the changeling a sense of progression
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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby oranges » Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:56 pm #28825

What about making lings stun resistant like hulks?

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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Raven776 » Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:16 pm #28840

oranges wrote:What about making lings stun resistant like hulks?


Would have to be something they could turn on and off. Nothing would suck more than getting whizzed by a random taser bolt and having the entire station crash down on your head because there is suddenly a massively easy way to test if you're a ling or not.

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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Cipher3 » Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:10 am #28854

>Not realizing immediately how overpowered that would be.

Epinephrine overdose - it exists.
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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Saegrimr » Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:27 am #28858

Kuraudo wrote:Newling is all about finding efficient ways to neutralize A without him yelling "HALP LING MAINT". And the newling doesn't have a way to disable someone. In a game where combat revolves around stun, it's a shame

Traitor is all about finding efficient ways to neutralize A without him yelling "HALP EBOW MAINT".
Is mute sting really that hard to use?

Kuraudo wrote:..or steal 5000 millions gallons of plasma

This is literally "pull a plasma tank from the storage units in the atmos hallway or toxins room".
You don't even need to top off the tank, the tank as it is has enough.

Kuraudo wrote:The changeling became a sub-par antagonist, outclassed by wizards, nuke ops, traitors and double agents.

Ignoring Traitorling entirely.. Wizards are SUPPOSED to be stupidly overpowered. Its a 1vStation situation usually. Nuke ops are 5ish. Trying to separate Traitor and DA because they're honestly the same exact thing is stupid, and there isn't a much traitors get aside from ezbombs that lings can't easily replicate or get themselves. Emags maybe, if you're super lazy.

Parasting isn't coming back, they got rid of the parapen for a reason. I doubt they'll bring it back for lings.
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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Bluespace » Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:53 am #28901

Changelings as is are terrible. I'd rather just go back to oldling, absorbing people was part of the thrill.
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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Alex Crimson » Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:21 am #28902

Bluespace wrote:Changelings as is are terrible. I'd rather just go back to oldling, absorbing people was part of the thrill.


I dont really agree that they are terrible, but i do think oldling absorbing was fun as hell. Cloning husks is much easier with the cloning machine now it can get upgraded, and i never found reviving husked people to be that annoying anyways. I say we bring back the para/silence sting combo and make absorbing fun again.

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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Stickymayhem » Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:32 am #28903

I pretend I have to absorb to get my genomes. It makes changeling fun again.

Changeling is the best antag to do dun gimmicks with. Like hostile takeover of the station or going friendly and openly eating debrained robotics corpses.
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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Ezel » Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:46 am #28911

Raven776 wrote:
oranges wrote:What about making lings stun resistant like hulks?


Would have to be something they could turn on and off. Nothing would suck more than getting whizzed by a random taser bolt and having the entire station crash down on your head because there is suddenly a massively easy way to test if you're a ling or not.



Random sec shooting random lasers taser bolts
It always happens your so right

Also RIP hivemind

And the armblade doesnt have to be strong like a esword because a changeling
Can change his abilities everytime which could make strong old ling was like getting all abilities
But now your limited to 5 abilties which wouldnt end up silence sting death sting pary sting an all other abilities

Lets take the facts now
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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Zelacks » Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:03 pm #28936

This change is not very well thought out. Its a vicious circle, you only get value if other changelings invest in the communications, but since no one is willing to waste their precious point on getting comms, on such a risky gamble with low return, no one will get it.
It also seems that HIVECHAT IS A COMPLETELY FINE MECHANIC BEFORE THIS! Lings are not on the same team, the mechanic is already interesting enough, where ling can betray and deceive if they want to, the entry of access is nill so the lings that want to deceive and back stab are more likely to be in the chat. It was such a nice and elegant mechanic, and it was just a nice touch added onto changelings
As for lings completely destroying the station by working together, perhaps you have confirmation bias? Really it doesn't seem like lings are constantly teaming up together and completely killing the entire station, and even then, is that entirely a terrible thing?
Maybe I am just spitballing, but it seems like it would have the inverse effect to what you even intend to have anyway! If its a paid entry, the indivudals want to get value from their communications, its likely that individuals who get the hivechat are inclined to work together and coordinate well
The main point is that, I dont think this is a good solution to your perceived problem, it just degrades the quality of play for the changelings. Hivechat was such a nice thing, and it was elegant in how it worked.
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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby cedarbridge » Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:01 pm #28942

I've lost track of the number of traitor rounds I've had janked because just as my plan goes into swing, greyshirt mcshitler runs at me, gets stunned, instantly stands back up and robusts me, or runs off and screams for help, or whatever. Its pretty damn hard to get rid of a ling as a traitor without having already kitted out to murderbone (ebow/esword.) Having to resort to loud items just because there might be lings is both meta and stiffing.

Lings are fine, tatorling though, can be hell.

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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Absalom » Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:19 pm #29006

I love how much last update has changed. And how NONE of it was thought to be documented in the change log.

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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Kuraudo » Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:40 pm #29009

Zelacks wrote:It also seems that HIVECHAT IS A COMPLETELY FINE MECHANIC BEFORE THIS! Lings are not on the same team, the mechanic is already interesting enough, where ling can betray and deceive if they want to, the entry of access is nill so the lings that want to deceive and back stab are more likely to be in the chat. It was such a nice and elegant mechanic, and it was just a nice touch added onto changelings
As for lings completely destroying the station by working together, perhaps you have confirmation bias? Really it doesn't seem like lings are constantly teaming up together and completely killing the entire station, and even then, is that entirely a terrible thing?


I never saw a round where lings take advantage of communication to wreck absolute havoc on the station. In the most common scenarios, hive mind is used when a changeling need help, being in absolute danger. Or when one changeling gets the hop or the captain, he sends a hive mind message to tell his ling buddies to come and get their all access.
And even if hivemind is used mainly to shred the station apart, which is not the case at all, then let's remove plasma from atmos, because it's only used as a weapon of mass destruction, or even the singularity.
Altering a perfectly fine gameplay mechanism, making it less efficient, has a name: It's a nerf.

Traitor is all about finding efficient ways to neutralize A without him yelling "HALP EBOW MAINT".
Is mute sting really that hard to use?


A traitor has a vast choice of tools. No chemical regeneration mechanism. A traitor can surely knock you down and kill you without you being able to react. A changeling doesn't have something as simple and basic as a knockdown/stun.
I can regenerate myself, turn into a monkey, impersonate people voice, spawn spiders, but not stun a crewman ? Playing ling i have to resort to assistant means of restraining people like stunprods, flashes, cablecuffs, to compensate the lack of an inbuilt stun/knockdown ability. Every clean absorption I scored was by doing this. Relying purely on changeling skills give messy results and carry out great risks in being caught.This is a problem. Fix it please. Thank you.

Tl;Dr: The changeling need a stun/knockdown mechanism to be playable right now. Give us something like the acid spit from goon. Something to put a crewman in the ground long enough to apply damage, cuffs or whatever.
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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Saegrimr » Tue Sep 16, 2014 1:19 am #29022

Kuraudo wrote:A changeling doesn't have something as simple and basic as a knockdown/stun.
I can regenerate myself, turn into a monkey, impersonate people voice, spawn spiders, but not stun a crewman ?


Wow its almost like changelings are supposed to be kind of stealthy or something. Do you have that much trouble getting a taser/prod/egun after absorbing a sec or hop?
You're nearly invincible, immune to stuns, have an on-demand space suit, armor, and armblade with a huge knockdown bonus (PROTIP: AIM FOR THE FUCKING HEAD)
Can also instantly fuck over any borgs trying to rush you down, something traitors don't have an easy time doing, plus you can wreck a whole room's capacity to function with the other shriek.

But lordy no, you don't get an instant win sting so the entire gamemode is trash! Put some effort into it.
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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Incomptinence » Tue Sep 16, 2014 1:31 am #29024

Why would a stunning sting be instant win? He didn't ask for original parasting or even require it be used in combo with mute sting, something which could be avoided with chemicals pricing. Saying a ling is nearly invincible is like saying the same of a werewolf in a scenario where everyone knows about silver hurting werewolves and has ample stocks of it. Also this is all against your original sentence since a sting mechanic works perfectly fine within a stealth design since you know CHEMICAL RECHARGE SYSTEM.

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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Saegrimr » Tue Sep 16, 2014 1:38 am #29027

How is an ebow an instant win? Why does the changeling need a mutatable stun prod on top of everything else he already has?

All i'm hearing is complaints of unrobustness.
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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Reimoo » Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:25 am #29045

Ikarrus wrote:If you feel that changelings are underpowered, ideas for actual buffs are welcome.


How about actually making changeling disguises useful for once? Isn't it a bit odd that most changelings don't use disguises as their primary tactic in this game?

I mean what kind of shapeshifter just goes around tickling people with his prick? Honestly, we might as well rename them to stinglings or something retarded at this point.

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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Incomptinence » Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:45 am #29049

If the game was a proper robustness competition it would be a death match and everyone would have equal gear and abilities. We like to keep that in the thunderdome however.

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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby bandit » Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:12 am #29063

Honestly, what I miss most about oldling was the paranoia. The creeping sense that the station population was dwindling and people were disappearing. Newling has yet to provide that.
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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Alex Crimson » Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:43 am #29066

bandit wrote:Honestly, what I miss most about oldling was the paranoia. The creeping sense that the station population was dwindling and people were disappearing. Newling has yet to provide that.


Same here. I loved the fact that your coworker could be an alien with the ability to completely incapacitate you, drag you into a secluded spot and absorb you. Now its mostly just lings completely failing or absorbing dead bodies. I dont like it at all.

Bring back Silence/Para sting combo!

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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Stickymayhem » Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:11 am #29068

If you transform while naked on a pile of equipment you equip it automatically. Use this tip for disguises.
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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby cedarbridge » Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:29 pm #29105

Alex Crimson wrote:
bandit wrote:Honestly, what I miss most about oldling was the paranoia. The creeping sense that the station population was dwindling and people were disappearing. Newling has yet to provide that.


Same here. I loved the fact that your coworker could be an alien with the ability to completely incapacitate you, drag you into a secluded spot and absorb you. Now its mostly just lings completely failing or absorbing dead bodies. I dont like it at all.

Bring back Silence/Para sting combo!

And this marks the first time in history I've seen somebody literally begging to be a murderbone victim.

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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Incomptinence » Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:37 pm #29107

I sympathized even with oldlings, you ever try following the ling that killed you? Watching the failure again and again against a filthy hateful valid killing crew made it seem to me ling was the real protagonist a fair few times.

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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Alex Crimson » Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:50 pm #29111

cedarbridge wrote:
Alex Crimson wrote:
bandit wrote:Honestly, what I miss most about oldling was the paranoia. The creeping sense that the station population was dwindling and people were disappearing. Newling has yet to provide that.


Same here. I loved the fact that your coworker could be an alien with the ability to completely incapacitate you, drag you into a secluded spot and absorb you. Now its mostly just lings completely failing or absorbing dead bodies. I dont like it at all.

Bring back Silence/Para sting combo!

And this marks the first time in history I've seen somebody literally begging to be a murderbone victim.


If im gonna get killed, id prefer it be with a mechanic i enjoy.

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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:08 pm #29115

When we talk about greytiding, it's all annoying assistants fucking with security, pain, tedium and risk of dying.

When we talk about lings, it's paranoia, thrill and horror.

Why don't you fucks play security and enjoy your thrill and paranoia all you want.

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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby bandit » Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:25 pm #29119

There's a difference between people killing/fucking with you because they're being dicks and people killing/fucking with you because that's their role in-game.
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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:16 pm #29129

Um, no, there is not. You receive thrill and paranoia in both cases. Dropping the fact that assistants and lings use different tools, why would it matter to you? May be this assistant is actually traitor who's fucking with you. Will that make it more enjoyable for you? For real? If put in identical situations except for the antagonist status of your enemy, why would your experience be different?

More likely people find shitty excuses to play with instakill toys.

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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby bandit » Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:17 pm #29130

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Um, no, there is not. You receive thrill and paranoia in both cases. Dropping the fact that assistants and lings use different tools, why would it matter to you? May be this assistant is actually traitor who's fucking with you. Will that make it more enjoyable for you? For real? If put in identical situations except for the antagonist status of your enemy, why would your experience be different?


You seriously don't see any difference between being griefed and being killed because someone is an antag and you're their target? Intent doesn't matter at all?
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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby cedarbridge » Tue Sep 16, 2014 5:56 pm #29155

bandit wrote:
Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Um, no, there is not. You receive thrill and paranoia in both cases. Dropping the fact that assistants and lings use different tools, why would it matter to you? May be this assistant is actually traitor who's fucking with you. Will that make it more enjoyable for you? For real? If put in identical situations except for the antagonist status of your enemy, why would your experience be different?


You seriously don't see any difference between being griefed and being killed because someone is an antag and you're their target? Intent doesn't matter at all?

Intent is never a known known until it is stated and verified. That's kinda the whole point of paranoia.

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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Scott » Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:01 pm #29159

Now you're excusing grey tide?

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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:08 pm #29161

Scott wrote:Now you're excusing grey tide?

No, I'm merely pointing at hypocrisy of people who only apply "paranoia" and shit like that to antagonists. I have never seen that argument used for anything else.

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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby bandit » Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:10 pm #29163

The dwindling station population and the sense of foreboding that oldling produced is a completely different thing than the atmosphere of frustration and pointless griff that grayide produces. Or in other words: One involves people just doing their jobs. One involves people being dicks.
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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Scott » Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:13 pm #29164

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:
Scott wrote:Now you're excusing grey tide?

No, I'm merely pointing at hypocrisy of people who only apply "paranoia" and shit like that to antagonists. I have never seen that argument used for anything else.


Grey tide has no paranoia, just frustration caused by grif.

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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:18 pm #29167

Oh, you know nothing. Just walk out in hallway and look at those pesky greytiders. Each boldly looking you into the eye, which one of them will strike first? You never know.

For maximum paranoia take out your baton and just walk. Eventually they will start disarming you, the swarm of grey matter, neverending, you call for backup, but you never know if it will ever come to you, meanwhile your clothes are being ripped apart, OH THE PARANOIA FILLS YOUR BRAIN, you manage to set one of them to arrest and beepsky comes to help you, but brave officer is being brutally murdered by your own baton. You will never forget that paranoia.

bandit wrote:The dwindling station population and the sense of foreboding that oldling produced is a completely different thing than the atmosphere of frustration and pointless griff that grayide produces.

Completely different how?
bandit wrote:One involves people just doing their jobs. One involves people being dicks.

What's it to you? Like I said, greyshirt can be antagonist and just doing his job. Does that make you feel better about it?

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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Reimoo » Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:05 pm #29174

The point is that greytiding is frustrating because it's the result of someone breaking OOC rules just to be a dick.

Antagonist shenanigans are different because they are actually sanctioned to cause chaos and are given the tools and the means in order to do that. It's the difference between dealing with a troll vs an actual opponent.

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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Atticat » Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:51 pm #29198

I'm not saying newling isn't less fun than oldling or flawed, but man...parasting is literally my definition of frustration in ss13.
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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Fatal » Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:56 am #29247

For those QQing about this

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=415

Thats 4 months ago, I brought this up, now Im not certain if this change directly comes from that thread, but, you had your chance to voice your opinion then

Ling hive chat always seemed to turn ling into a team mode for me

Good example, some ling breaks into cargo (I didn't know he was ling), I am cargo tech, I stun and cable tie his ass, whilst comms are down, the HoP and HoS come running by to intervene (both lings as well), although I manage to use my disabler to stun both one of them, they overwhelm me with numbers

Hive chat was a crutch for unrobust players to call for assistance every time they got caught, now you have no crutch

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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:11 am #29255

Reimoo wrote:The point is that greytiding is frustrating because it's the result of someone breaking OOC rules just to be a dick.

Antagonist shenanigans are different because they are actually sanctioned to cause chaos and are given the tools and the means in order to do that. It's the difference between dealing with a troll vs an actual opponent.

I don't understand. Are you saying that in two otherwise exact situations it matters if the opponent is antag or not?

Because that seems bizarre. Why do you care for what purpose you are being fucked with, if your side is absolutely the same?

Suppose we have a greyshirt that is changeling, but you don't know that. Would it make it more fun to be his target if you knew he was changeling? That doesn't make any sense to me.

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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Incomptinence » Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:43 am #29262

Fatal wrote:For those QQing about this

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=415

Thats 4 months ago, I brought this up, now Im not certain if this change directly comes from that thread, but, you had your chance to voice your opinion then

Ling hive chat always seemed to turn ling into a team mode for me

Good example, some ling breaks into cargo (I didn't know he was ling), I am cargo tech, I stun and cable tie his ass, whilst comms are down, the HoP and HoS come running by to intervene (both lings as well), although I manage to use my disabler to stun both one of them, they overwhelm me with numbers

Hive chat was a crutch for unrobust players to call for assistance every time they got caught, now you have no crutch

I was against it then I am against it now.

I have literally caught lings through lingchat. I mean no talking no pda messaging CE starts trying to break into the exact room I am interrogating the ling in? Why he must be some form of linger or even if he isn't that is a charge of trying to help an enemy of the station. Most lings aren't disguised as gun armed heads and going to the rescue usually means just seeing their back end as the chaplain office door slams behind it.

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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Kuraudo » Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:25 pm #29289

Hive chat was a crutch for unrobust players to call for assistance every time they got caught, now you have no crutch


Winning as antag should not require to you to be a super robust McGyver player.
In a 40+ minutes round playing as antag, you are going to make at least one mistake. And you can die because of it. That doesn't make you a shitty player.

Wow its almost like changelings are supposed to be kind of stealthy or something. Do you have that much trouble getting a taser/prod/egun after absorbing a sec or hop?
You're nearly invincible, immune to stuns, have an on-demand space suit, armor, and armblade with a huge knockdown bonus (PROTIP: AIM FOR THE FUCKING HEAD)
Can also instantly fuck over any borgs trying to rush you down, something traitors don't have an easy time doing, plus you can wreck a whole room's capacity to function with the other shriek.

But lordy no, you don't get an instant win sting so the entire gamemode is trash! Put some effort into it.


Are you people following the Red Army "Not one step back!" guideline or something like that ? Are you really able to question a turn in policy you decided, or do you see it as some sort of unremovable stain of shame to just question some coding you've done and thought it was fine back then ?

How useful are those defensive skills when the changeling reputation and server high population, pretty much nullify them by giving the ling ZERO chance to make it alive once exposed and surrounded ? You're gonna get swarmed by every player on the station and overpowered. No matter your defensive abilities, people are going to surround you, put you down, cuff you, and continiously bash your head with a fire extinguisher out of fear of your regenerative abilities while they drag you to cremation.

The armblade (And the shriek) is a dead givaway that you're a ling, and is not an incapacitating weapon. It carry a knockdown bonus but it's not designed to KO your opponent. It's a damaging close contact skill you can easily replace by an alcohol bottle smashed on someone head for a knockdown. This is like saying you can remove the ebow because the esword KO you when aimed at the head anyways.
I'm not supposed to use artisanal means to compensate for the missing features of a changeling the coders butchered. Every other antag or combat role has the means to accomplish his mission, incapacitate it's target, etc. Except the changeling.
The wizard has the magic missile. Apply EI NATH for death and maximal efficiency.
The traitor have the ebow, the nuke ops: the FN F2000-like assault rifle (C-20R) that downs you immediately, syndie borgs, LMGs, the huge mechs. (All this compensate the risky nature of their mission)
The ninja, i do not even need to say what he's capable of.
The security officier have a taser, a pepperspray, a flash, a baton, etc.
Every head has the mighty egun that is probably the most safe weapon in the game. Stun the fucker, switch mode, laser him to death while he lies helpless on the ground.

The changeling can try to cryo you and whack you in the head with his super obvious Resident Evil-like armblade while the victim yells and yells, and yell while trying to reach a populated area. (Because well, good luck if you want to cryo, hit, mute all at once.) Then security and armed volunteers comes, follow the blood; The guy got absorbed ? They'll know if someone pretends to be him. The guy is just dead ? He's gonna get cloned and tell every detail about what you did.
And like i said; You can't allow yourself to be exposed as a ling.

Why do you think greentext became a rare occurence, especially in changeling rounds ?
Either people try but see their cover blown, get swarmed and lynched.
Or they just know this is useless, and spend the round having a "fun" and gimmical changeling round, which involves no risky absorptions, and basically stinging people with the transform and LSD sting to bring some sort of chaos and rage among the crew.
The changeling should be an absolute horror in combat; but since it's no longer the case, people play it as a clown with chemical abilities.

I made several suggestions on how to improve this; Stun/Knockdown ability, and an additionnal DNA slot for every absorbed DNA.
And the only answer seems to be some kind of trashtalk, implying the problem is the players, those bunch of lazy fuckers that refuse to use assistant improvised weapons to compensate for the removals the coders made.
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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby bandit » Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:25 pm #29290

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:
Reimoo wrote:The point is that greytiding is frustrating because it's the result of someone breaking OOC rules just to be a dick.

Antagonist shenanigans are different because they are actually sanctioned to cause chaos and are given the tools and the means in order to do that. It's the difference between dealing with a troll vs an actual opponent.

I don't understand. Are you saying that in two otherwise exact situations it matters if the opponent is antag or not?

Because that seems bizarre. Why do you care for what purpose you are being fucked with, if your side is absolutely the same?

Suppose we have a greyshirt that is changeling, but you don't know that. Would it make it more fun to be his target if you knew he was changeling? That doesn't make any sense to me.


They're not exact situations. That's the entire point. It's like the difference between going to war and getting your ass kicked by ISIS, and going to war and getting your ass kicked by some assfuck in your own platoon who shoots you because he can and felt like he could get away with it. I'm honestly beginning to think you're just trolling at this point.
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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby ThatSlyFox » Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:12 pm #29297

Spoiler:
Kuraudo wrote:
Hive chat was a crutch for unrobust players to call for assistance every time they got caught, now you have no crutch


Winning as antag should not require to you to be a super robust McGyver player.
In a 40+ minutes round playing as antag, you are going to make at least one mistake. And you can die because of it. That doesn't make you a shitty player.

Wow its almost like changelings are supposed to be kind of stealthy or something. Do you have that much trouble getting a taser/prod/egun after absorbing a sec or hop?
You're nearly invincible, immune to stuns, have an on-demand space suit, armor, and armblade with a huge knockdown bonus (PROTIP: AIM FOR THE FUCKING HEAD)
Can also instantly fuck over any borgs trying to rush you down, something traitors don't have an easy time doing, plus you can wreck a whole room's capacity to function with the other shriek.

But lordy no, you don't get an instant win sting so the entire gamemode is trash! Put some effort into it.


Are you people following the Red Army "Not one step back!" guideline or something like that ? Are you really able to question a turn in policy you decided, or do you see it as some sort of unremovable stain of shame to just question some coding you've done and thought it was fine back then ?

How useful are those defensive skills when the changeling reputation and server high population, pretty much nullify them by giving the ling ZERO chance to make it alive once exposed and surrounded ? You're gonna get swarmed by every player on the station and overpowered. No matter your defensive abilities, people are going to surround you, put you down, cuff you, and continiously bash your head with a fire extinguisher out of fear of your regenerative abilities while they drag you to cremation.

The armblade (And the shriek) is a dead givaway that you're a ling, and is not an incapacitating weapon. It carry a knockdown bonus but it's not designed to KO your opponent. It's a damaging close contact skill you can easily replace by an alcohol bottle smashed on someone head for a knockdown. This is like saying you can remove the ebow because the esword KO you when aimed at the head anyways.
I'm not supposed to use artisanal means to compensate for the missing features of a changeling the coders butchered. Every other antag or combat role has the means to accomplish his mission, incapacitate it's target, etc. Except the changeling.
The wizard has the magic missile. Apply EI NATH for death and maximal efficiency.
The traitor have the ebow, the nuke ops: the FN F2000-like assault rifle (C-20R) that downs you immediately, syndie borgs, LMGs, the huge mechs. (All this compensate the risky nature of their mission)
The ninja, i do not even need to say what he's capable of.
The security officier have a taser, a pepperspray, a flash, a baton, etc.
Every head has the mighty egun that is probably the most safe weapon in the game. Stun the fucker, switch mode, laser him to death while he lies helpless on the ground.

The changeling can try to cryo you and whack you in the head with his super obvious Resident Evil-like armblade while the victim yells and yells, and yell while trying to reach a populated area. (Because well, good luck if you want to cryo, hit, mute all at once.) Then security and armed volunteers comes, follow the blood; The guy got absorbed ? They'll know if someone pretends to be him. The guy is just dead ? He's gonna get cloned and tell every detail about what you did.
And like i said; You can't allow yourself to be exposed as a ling.

Why do you think greentext became a rare occurence, especially in changeling rounds ?
Either people try but see their cover blown, get swarmed and lynched.
Or they just know this is useless, and spend the round having a "fun" and gimmical changeling round, which involves no risky absorptions, and basically stinging people with the transform and LSD sting to bring some sort of chaos and rage among the crew.
The changeling should be an absolute horror in combat; but since it's no longer the case, people play it as a clown with chemical abilities.

I made several suggestions on how to improve this; Stun/Knockdown ability, and an additionnal DNA slot for every absorbed DNA.
And the only answer seems to be some kind of trashtalk, implying the problem is the players, those bunch of lazy fuckers that refuse to use assistant improvised weapons to compensate for the removals the coders made.


Not much more has to be said. Lings are weak and useless.
From a RP standpoint they evolved into shitty predators who went from let's be stealthy to let's form armor and run into battle with our arm blade while yelling the song of our people.

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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:19 pm #29299

Kuraudo wrote:Winning as antag should not require to you to be a super robust McGyver player.

But antagonists are supposed to be challenging to win as.

"supposed to be" argument is the second best argument right after "paranoia" argument.
bandit wrote:They're not exact situations. That's the entire point. It's like the difference between going to war and getting your ass kicked by ISIS, and going to war and getting your ass kicked by some assfuck in your own platoon who shoots you because he can and felt like he could get away with it. I'm honestly beginning to think you're just trolling at this point.

Why, changeling's entire point is taking a form of someone else and pretending to be them. That's literally what you describe as "assfuck in your own platoon who shoots you".

In fact, it was mentioned as part of the atmosphere created by changeling:
Alex Crimson wrote:Same here. I loved the fact that your coworker could be an alien with the ability to completely incapacitate you, drag you into a secluded spot and absorb you. Now its mostly just lings completely failing or absorbing dead bodies. I dont like it at all.

Bring back Silence/Para sting combo!

Not to mention that there is no difference if you die to ISIS or to some assfuck from your own platoon. You're equally dead. What is the difference between two situations in your example? Obviously emotions are entirely different in the video game, so "my buddy betrayed me" doesn't really apply.
ThatSlyFox wrote:Not much more has to be said. Lings are weak and useless.
From a RP standpoint they evolved into shitty predators who went from let's be stealthy to let's form armor and run into battle with our arm blade while yelling the song of our people.

>you can literally change your whole appearance in seconds
>it's now a LOT easier to collect DNA
>run into battle
Guys, I found a reason why changelings stopped greentexting!

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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby bandit » Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:30 pm #29303

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Not to mention that there is no difference if you die to ISIS or to some assfuck from your own platoon. You're equally dead. What is the difference between two situations in your example? Obviously emotions are entirely different in the video game, so "my buddy betrayed me" doesn't really apply.


"You're equally dead" doesn't really apply in a game with cloning, but the difference is fucking simple and has been explained like ten times already: one person is being a dick to you, and one person is just doing their job, and if you get butthurt about someone just doing their job you should probably choose a different game.
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Re: Changelings got nerfed. Again.

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:33 pm #29315

bandit wrote:one person is being a dick to you, and one person is just doing their job

How the fuck does that change YOUR experience? Seriously. One backstabbing coworker makes you feel thrill and paranoia and another backstabbing coworker makes you mad? Because of the property that has no application inside of the game anyway and is completely arbitrary in that one is prosecuted by admins and another is not? That's fucking bizarre.
bandit wrote:"You're equally dead" doesn't really apply in a game with cloning

Well, I agree, that was a bad example. Glad we got that out of the way.

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