Changelings got nerfed. Again.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Bottom post of the previous page:

one person is being a dick to you, and one person is just doing their job

How the fuck does that change YOUR experience? Seriously. One backstabbing coworker makes you feel thrill and paranoia and another backstabbing coworker makes you mad? Because of the property that has no application inside of the game anyway and is completely arbitrary in that one is prosecuted by admins and another is not? That's fucking bizarre.

"You're equally dead" doesn't really apply in a game with cloning

Well, I agree, that was a bad example. Glad we got that out of the way.

[bandit]

one person is being a dick to you, and one person is just doing their job

How the fuck does that change YOUR experience? Seriously. One backstabbing coworker makes you feel thrill and paranoia and another backstabbing coworker makes you mad? Because of the property that has no application inside of the game anyway and is completely arbitrary in that one is prosecuted by admins and another is not? That's fucking bizarre.

I think it's more fucking bizarre to argue that context doesn't matter. I literally cannot fathom a mindset where "I am playing the game as it is meant to be played" and "I'm just gonna fuck over other players even though I'm not supposed to because lulz" are equivalent. Unless it's the mindset of a literal child: 'MUH ROUNDS MUH SITUATIONS I CANNOT CONTROL'. In that case you should probably play a game without antagonists or competition.

[Steelpoint]

One is a alien lifeform that employs unique abilities to kill crew members and steal their identities, and has a vested interest, and permission, to attempt to hunt down and kill isolated crew members to achieve their objectives.

The other is, usually, a Assistant with a Stun Prod and Cable Cuffs, lacks any special abilities, and is usually just trying to screw over one particular person as well as acting against the expectations of the server.

I will be pissed off if some Assistant/s decide to gang up on me for no reason, I am less annoyed when its a antagonist/changeling. One is obligated to cause chaos and murder, the other is acting in bad faith and is only seeking 'fun' for themselves.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

"I am playing the game as it is meant to be played"

er, I cannot understand how this can matter, you can enjoy things that were not meant to be there, how does this fucking change your enjoyment of it?

I don't give a fuck that I was meant to go for my objectives as antag, I will do things that are more enjoyable.

My God, even greytiding itself is people doing anything but how assistant "was meant to be played". Because that doesn't fucking matter and people will do what's more fun.

Unless it's the mindset of a literal child: 'MUH ROUNDS MUH SITUATIONS I CANNOT CONTROL'.

I don't understand what this means.

One is a alien lifeform that employs unique abilities to kill crew members and steal their identities, and has a vested interest, and permission, to attempt to hunt down and kill isolated crew members to achieve their objectives.

The other is, usually, a Assistant with a Stun Prod and Cable Cuffs, lacks any special abilities, and is usually just trying to screw over one particular person as well as acting against the expectations of the server.

Antagonists can use stun prods and cable cuffs. Would it be more enjoyable for you if you knew they were antags? I would personally find that weird. I don't give a shit if they were antag or not, I died to the same tools regardless. That is not the issue here. The issue is that people say that they like the challenge and atmosphere of changeling. Well, I say, why does it matter who brings the challenge? Why does it matter if ling slowly murders whole station in maint or robust assistant with stunprod/cuffs?

[Scott]

Since changeling is prototype space alien edition, what do you think about an evolution that lets you aoe knockdown and steal life and that uses 50 points?

[Cipher3]

one person is being a dick to you, and one person is just doing their job

How the fuck does that change YOUR experience? Seriously. One backstabbing coworker makes you feel thrill and paranoia and another backstabbing coworker makes you mad? Because of the property that has no application inside of the game anyway and is completely arbitrary in that one is prosecuted by admins and another is not? That's fucking bizarre.

"You're equally dead" doesn't really apply in a game with cloning

Well, I agree, that was a bad example. Glad we got that out of the way.

This discussion really belongs in a separate thread - one about the obsession with antag status and greentexting, or the necessity, or whatever you feel about it.

[Arete]

Since changelings have abilities that make them superior to traitors when it comes to blending in with the crew, it makes sense that they lack abilities that would make them superior to traitors in a straight up fight. That said, changeling is my least favorite gametype both when playing as one and when playing as a normal crewmember because smart changeling play is kind of boring. It's just not in their interest to overtly disrupt the usual workings of the station. It would be nice if changelings had some more powerful lategame abilities like spider creation in order to make the station more chaotic, and maybe also if they had the ability to sniff out their targets better to play up the stealthy predator angle and make the debraining objective less absurdly difficult. I don't mind moving the focus away from team changeling play as long as changelings get to do more interesting things on their own.

[Incomptinence]

Changelings have traditionally been in fewer numbers and had more objectives than traitors. Including killing and absorbing 10+ genomes for oldling. If changelings are meant to be traitors but worse they should be present in larger numbers and have less expected of them. As to which is more stealthy both are indistinguishable from normal crew before they act if they play smart, changeling advantages in stealth over traitors mostly apply to running away in sheer panic once caught out and most of them are old hat and meta gamed down hard.

[cedarbridge]

How about a better idea. We just get rid of the fuck retarded debrain objectives and call it a day.

[Saegrimr]

How about a better idea. We just get rid of the fuck retarded debrain objectives and call it a day.

That's already happening, though.

[ThatSlyFox]

How about a better idea. We just get rid of the fuck retarded debrain objectives and call it a day.

Or make it so husking people takes their brains. A husk might as well consider themselves out the game for good.

[Incomptinence]

How about a better idea. We just get rid of the fuck retarded debrain objectives and call it a day.

That's already happening, though.

Oh thank goodness, I swear that one was coded by someone who had been playing too much robotics and went "man stealing all these brains sure is easy!"

[cedarbridge]

How about a better idea. We just get rid of the fuck retarded debrain objectives and call it a day.

Or make it so husking people takes their brains. A husk might as well consider themselves out the game for good.

Ironically, a husk's brain is probably their only way back into a round without an upgraded cloner. Probably not a good idea to take that away from them just because its not commonly used.

[Kuraudo]

How about a better idea. We just get rid of the fuck retarded debrain objectives and call it a day.

Or make it so husking people takes their brains. A husk might as well consider themselves out the game for good.

Ironically, a husk's brain is probably their only way back into a round without an upgraded cloner. Probably not a good idea to take that away from them just because its not commonly used.

I don't want to sound aggressive but people are not entitled to come back into the round. You're dead and can't be cloned, well, grab some food and watch the round like a movie with your deadchat pals.

[Cipher3]

Which is why it's not a one-step process. You actually have to be somewhat intelligent to bring a husked person back into the round.

[cedarbridge]

How about a better idea. We just get rid of the fuck retarded debrain objectives and call it a day.

Or make it so husking people takes their brains. A husk might as well consider themselves out the game for good.

Ironically, a husk's brain is probably their only way back into a round without an upgraded cloner. Probably not a good idea to take that away from them just because its not commonly used.

I don't want to sound aggressive but people are not entitled to come back into the round. You're dead and can't be cloned, well, grab some food and watch the round like a movie with your deadchat pals.

You throw the word "entitled" around. Lets talk about things people aren't entitled to and see where the line ends.

*Items or powers that give them a stark advantage over others
*Completing objectives, ever
*The ability to kill anyone they want and then figure out if it is valid after the fact
*Tools or abilities to kill anyone at all.

We can move past the word "entitled" and move to what is good for the game. Playing the game is good, not playing the game is dull. Things that allow players to PLAY the game will generally be better than those that do the opposite.

[Kuraudo]

You throw the word "entitled" around. Lets talk about things people aren't entitled to and see where the line ends.

*Items or powers that give them a stark advantage over others
*Completing objectives, ever
*The ability to kill anyone they want and then figure out if it is valid after the fact
*Tools or abilities to kill anyone at all.

We can move past the word "entitled" and move to what is good for the game. Playing the game is good, not playing the game is dull. Things that allow players to PLAY the game will generally be better than those that do the opposite.

Pushing this logic further would mean removing all the game modes, beside extended. Since it's the game mode that present minimal risks of players being removed from the round. The ultimate goal of the player is not to stay in the round. If that was the case, everyone would be hiding in lockers to maximize chances of survivial.
Having fun is what make the game interesting. You can have fun dying and spectating the round afterwards like a good movie. That's why people suicide, expose themselves to death, etc.
I had fun setting up a mass assistant suicide in front of the HoP line just to see the HoP react in a "WTF" fashion.
When you're given a semi-changeling that can only act as a clown with chemical powers, this is not fun. I already talked about it.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Having fun is what make the game interesting. You can have fun dying and spectating the round afterwards like a good movie. That's why people suicide, expose themselves to death, etc.

Oh, good, you have a bunch of options. Now, a lot of people want options that don't require them to leave the round.

I had fun setting up a mass assistant suicide in front of the HoP line just to see the HoP react in a "WTF" fashion.

I had fun playing newling. Beat it.

When you're given a semi-changeling that can only act as a clown with chemical powers, this is not fun.

Says who?

[cedarbridge]

Pushing this logic further would mean removing all the game modes, beside extended. Since it's the game mode that present minimal risks of players being removed from the round.

Putting words in my mouth is a pretty shitty way to attempt argument. Its also non-responsive. People play SS13 to play SS13. They don't play it to log in for 5-10 minutes and then log out because they are excluded from playing it until the next round in 1-2 hours.

The ultimate goal of the player is not to stay in the round. If that was the case, everyone would be hiding in lockers to maximize chances of survivial.

You decided this on your own? I most definitely seek out ways to keep myself in the round and able to do things. If there's not a motivation for players to survive until round-end, that's a game design failure to motivate even basic instinctual behaviors. You know, eating, breathing, not dying. The simple things.

Having fun is what make the game interesting. You can have fun dying and spectating the round afterwards like a good movie. That's why people suicide, expose themselves to death, etc.

This is not a reason to exclude willing players from having a means to reenter the round. Its an argument for allowing people to willingly exit the round. These are not the same thing.

I had fun setting up a mass assistant suicide in front of the HoP line just to see the HoP react in a "WTF" fashion.

Congrats on your gimmick?

When you're given a semi-changeling that can only act as a clown with chemical powers, this is not fun. I already talked about it.

This part doesn't even begin to make sense.

[Aranclanos]

Are you guys seriously fighting for what is fun and what isn't

[Kuraudo]

This is your logic. Not mine: "Playing the game is good, not playing it is dull". Therefore a game with absolutely no risks or danger would be the conclusion of this logic, since risk and danger can take you out from the game.
You even validated this by saying:

If there's not a motivation for players to survive until round-end, that's a game design failure to motivate even basic instinctual behaviors. You know, eating, breathing, not dying. The simple things.

The motivation exists, except it's not the goal number one of the players.
People take risks. How many time do you see the mime, the clown, assistants and other chasing valids, trying to be heroes. How many times do you see security taking on nuke ops, knowing they are inherently inferior in terms of initiative and equipment ?
Conflict, interaction, achievements are fun. Challenge is fun. Not "staying alive for the sake of staying in the round."
The basic risk/reward mechanics don't fully apply in a game with light-rp. That's why you see lynch mobs against powerful antags.

If a husked, debrained dude should be sad because he's not getting back into the round, what about a gibbed changeling then ?

[Steelpoint]

Why don't we agree to disagree? Lets not go on a 10 page rant on who's right and who's wrong.

Why don't we look at trying to make Changeling a more engaging antag? Or even just agree on what areas to look at in making the Changeling better. I still think the Shadowling is a better alternative to Changeling for example.

Or we can waste our time arguing definitions and stuff, its your choice. At least we all agree the debraining objective was bad.

[Incomptinence]

Sure a low adversity round can be very fun. We have extended for that and the ideal (which I do not share) of changeling as the extended extender will just continue to wear them away to a nub.

Can we not try and beat the antagless mode at its own game? Such futility and so much wasted time on all sides.

[cedarbridge]

If a husked, debrained dude should be sad because he's not getting back into the round, what about a gibbed changeling then ?

What about them? Several ways exist for this player to participate in the round even after being ashed. Are you just busy making other people's arguments for them that you forgot your own? Players asking for additions like drones/ghost thunderdomes/etc are proof that players dont' log in to watch Antag McMurderbone ebow his next 30 victims and recall the shuttle for the next 2 hours. Players play to play the game. There are ways to play the game that extend past this

This is the reason people favor roundtypes like cult or rev (or even the half-implemented shadowling) over say, 2hour tatorling murderfests. Each of these modes has in-built ways to keep players in the round and involved. The addition of extra ways (drones/golems/pAIs etc etc) for players to stay in the round even when their character does not are still available. Hell, even nuke ops are tolerable not because people are less worried about being out of the round but because nukeops rounds rarely if every last more than 30-45 minutes.

So yes, if your idea of fun is watching other people play the game then the observe button is for you. If you actually like playing the game, then I'd start looking for ways to actually involve players (and stop seeing players as their roundstart characters for godsakes.)

[Kuraudo]

If a husked, debrained dude should be sad because he's not getting back into the round, what about a gibbed changeling then ?

What about them? Several ways exist for this player to participate in the round even after being ashed. Are you just busy making other people's arguments for them that you forgot your own?

You are contradicting yourself. If death is not permanent, because of cloning, drones, aliens etc, why worrying about debrained husks of randoms crewmans where the loss of a changeling is far more detrimental to the round in terms of what he can do to create action and challenge ?
If you want to worry about permadeath and how it affects the game, worry about those deaths.
Me ? I dont.

Playing to play seems nonsensical. Playing to have fun, from the challenge of overcoming obstacles, unexpected events, interactions with other players, is more in phase with reality.

[cedarbridge]

Playing to play seems nonsensical.

Welp, we're done here. I have literally no idea what you're even trying to argue for at this point, but if you can't figure out that people generally play games to participate in them and not watch others play them, I can't do anything for you. You're just arguing to hear yourself speak now.

[Kuraudo]

Playing to play seems nonsensical.

Welp, we're done here. I have literally no idea what you're even trying to argue for at this point, but if you can't figure out that people generally play games to participate in them and not watch others play them, I can't do anything for you. You're just arguing to hear yourself speak now.

You know that when playing a game you can...lose, right ?
You know, losing your energy, dying, game over ?
People should not feel frustrated to hell when it happen to them and accept permadeath. Everyone gets to play, but not everyone gets to stay in the game until the end of the round. That's my point.

[cedarbridge]

Playing to play seems nonsensical.

Welp, we're done here. I have literally no idea what you're even trying to argue for at this point, but if you can't figure out that people generally play games to participate in them and not watch others play them, I can't do anything for you. You're just arguing to hear yourself speak now.

You know that when playing a game you can...lose, right ?
You know, losing your energy, dying, game over ?
People should not feel frustrated to hell when it happen to them and accept permadeath. Everyone gets to play, but not everyone gets to stay in the game until the end of the round. That's my point.

This is not a server for people who want to play to win. There is no such thing as "winning" space station 13. Flipside is there is no losing either. Did nobody tell you that?

[Saegrimr]

Theres plenty of people who lost the game.
Just look at FNR.

[Kuraudo]

Playing to play seems nonsensical.

Welp, we're done here. I have literally no idea what you're even trying to argue for at this point, but if you can't figure out that people generally play games to participate in them and not watch others play them, I can't do anything for you. You're just arguing to hear yourself speak now.

You know that when playing a game you can...lose, right ?
You know, losing your energy, dying, game over ?
People should not feel frustrated to hell when it happen to them and accept permadeath. Everyone gets to play, but not everyone gets to stay in the game until the end of the round. That's my point.

This is not a server for people who want to play to win. There is no such thing as "winning" space station 13. Flipside is there is no losing either. Did nobody tell you that?

When you had fun, (by greentext, accomplishment, successful gimmicks or whatever) you won.
Losing is failure in what you're trying to do, and permadeath.

[Timbrewolf]

What genius decided to make it so you can examine a changeling in disguise as someone else and you get the message "Their body moves unnaturally" or some shit?

Thanks for ruining transform sting.

Also mute sting either takes forever to work or doesn't work long enough. I stung someone that had been rendered unconscious and straightjacketed then began to choke and absorb them. The whole process took long enough that they were still able to recover and yell over the radio what I was doing.

Did people just decide they fucking hated changeling mode and they wanted to ruin it while I was gone?

Holy fuck it used to be my favorite antag mode and now everything is fucking broken.

I'm actually all for hivemind being removed. It never quite fit with the way the gameplay goes, changelings aren't a team so they shouldn't have a team channel. The next closest thing to changeling we have is double-agent. Get rid of it so people don't accidentally spend points on it and wonder why they can't talk to anyone on it. Hivemind encourages the same pattern of gameplay: get a sec officer or a head, get your changeling pals into those other positions, eat the whole station. That's bad. It's fun but it's bad.

On the flip side the EMP and ability to avoid being tracked by the AI are cool though.

But seriously fuck that examine message. I was really hoping if I got caught the station would realize there were two of the same guy running around and maybe torch us both or something. Fuck you for taking that away from me.

[Reimoo]

I was really hoping if I got caught the station would realize there were two of the same guy running around and maybe torch us both or something. Fuck you for taking that away from me.

I remember during a ling round I was playing a security officer and we happened to catch two identical CMOs, both wearing the same clothes. After much arguing left and right, we ended up gibbing the wrong guy and setting the ling free. We got accused of shitcurity a lot that round cause of that, but in hindsight that's pretty damn cool that the ling was able to use nothing but good acting to give us the slip after we caught him red-handed.

Stuff like that needs to happen more often.

[Xerux]

What genius decided to make it so you can examine a changeling in disguise as someone else and you get the message "Their body moves unnaturally" or some shit?

Digital Camouflage gives the user an examine message while active:

Code: Select all

if(digitalcamo)
	msg += "[t_He] [t_is] moving [t_his] body in an unnatural and blatantly inhuman manner.\n"

[Timbrewolf]

Is that what causes that?

That's a huge relief, then.

The conversation in dsay lead me to believe that was the result of being transformed into someone else and not the digital camo ability. Phew!