[POLL] Assistant Maint Access

For feedback on the game code and design. Feedback on server rules and playstyle belong in Policy Discussion.

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Should assistants have maintenance access?

Poll ended at Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:23 am

Yes
34
15%
Yes
34
15%
Yes
34
15%
No
39
18%
No
39
18%
No
39
18%
Abstain
1
0%
Abstain
1
0%
Abstain
1
0%
 
Total votes : 222

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[POLL] Assistant Maint Access

Postby paprika » Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:23 am #33154

Assistants spawn with one single bit of access that security nor even medical doctors have access to: Maintenance access.

Maint is mostly a lurking ground for antagonists and aliens, free from the eyes of security or the AI. It also houses a handful of tools, clothing, and some useful items that make it a nice place to scour for loot. Otherwise, engineers and atmos techs use it to make repairs and such, hence the name. Maint also takes up a lot of space on the map itself -- a enough tiles to make up a department and a half or so. Make to mistake, antagonists have no trouble working around access restrictions so this change will not affect antagonists in any way other than having maint be a more ominous ground for culists to establish bases and meet in private without 50 assistants lurking around for loot.

Vote above, discuss below. Rest assured this poll and discussion will actually decide the fate of this server config option, so try to refer as many players as possible to this poll.
Last edited by peoplearestrange on Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: added [poll] tag
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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby Saegrimr » Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:11 am #33166

The problem is not with the job, but with the person playing the job.
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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby Psyentific » Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:20 am #33188

Assistants have absolutely no responsibility, by design.
If you have no responsibility, you should have no access.

If Assistants have maint, then Medical and Security ought to also have maint; The former for finding bodies, the latter for stopping crime. If at all possible, can Assistant maint be tied to Med/Sec maint?
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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby Cheridan » Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:20 pm #33215

Psyentific wrote:Assistants have absolutely no responsibility, by design.
If you have no responsibility, you should have no access.


I agree with this, though I also have a minor concern about what it does to the overall accessibility of maintenance. Right now, it's easy to get in there even if you don't have access by default. You can find an ID or follow someone in. Without assistant maint I think it'll go too far in the other direction, and be this engi/atmo/cargo exclusive playground.
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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby Psyentific » Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:29 pm #33217

The problem is that 10-20 people with by-default maint access will skew the numbers massively either way; Secret clubhouse no girls allowed vs secondary hallways.
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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:44 pm #33222

Finally, yes, remove that damn maint access from assistants and please make maintenance convenient way to get around for engineers that repair stuff, not a labyrinth for treasure hunting.

Seriously, I have do to retarded loops and get into dead ends that make no sense.

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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby Incomptinence » Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:19 pm #33228

Their access is the least of their problems.

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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby MisterPerson » Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:10 pm #33300

Psyentific wrote:Assistants have absolutely no responsibility, by design.
If you have no responsibility, you should have no access.

If Assistants have maint, then Medical and Security ought to also have maint; The former for finding bodies, the latter for stopping crime. If at all possible, can Assistant maint be tied to Med/Sec maint?


Currently the options are nobody has maint, everyone has maint, assistants have maint, sec has maint, and sec and assistants have maint. I suppose I could expand this if you really want.

This should REALLY be in policies considering this is a server policy issue. The config options are already there, you have to get scaredy to activate them.
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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby Incoming » Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:16 pm #33301

I feel like assistants are getting the witchhunt for any and all nerfs just because of the actions of a few shitty people.

You can't comment out player behavior in the code, so please stop trying. This will solve nothing and will piss off the like 30% of the playerbase who play assistant.
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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby paprika » Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:37 pm #33310

People who play assistant as it was intended (new players learning the game) won't be affected by this at all.

The only people who will be affected are oldfags who choose to play assistant for the lack of responsibility, free maint loot, antag hunting vigilantism, and antagonist anonymity advantage.

All of those things are side effects of the playerbase and assistants having maint as their own personal stomping grounds rather than a neat section of the station exclusive to supply and engineering for safe passage when delivering shit or fixing shit/putting out fires.

I don't want sec to have maint -- That would kill the dynamic of antags being able to be relatively safer in maint by having antag hunting sec patrol maint religiously.

Incoming wrote:You can't comment out player behavior in the code, so please stop trying. This will solve nothing and will piss off the like 30% of the playerbase who play assistant.


These players are not a 'demographic' that /tg/ has ever desired outside of fun hijinks assistants can pull off like clowns since they don't have any job responsibilities. I like doing that from time to time, but the griefers and powergamers who abuse a job for new players need to go. If pissing off a bunch of shitters until they fuck off isn't commenting player behavior out then I don't know what is. They'll cry /TG/ IS DEAD BAWWW but it won't affect the server at all.
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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby Incoming » Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:55 pm #33321

paprika wrote:These players are not a 'demographic' that /tg/ has ever desired outside of fun hijinks assistants can pull off like clowns since they don't have any job responsibilities. I like doing that from time to time, but the griefers and powergamers who abuse a job for new players need to go. If pissing off a bunch of shitters until they fuck off isn't commenting player behavior out then I don't know what is. They'll cry /TG/ IS DEAD BAWWW but it won't affect the server at all.


All I can say is that once you've hashed out the jobs for the umpteenth time the fun hijinks are all that's left to entertain. Old players march inexorably towards grey because once they've seen what there is to be seen, they gravitate to the job that best lets them make their OWN fun. What assistants have become is emergent game play, people taking what "playing SS13" is into their own hands. So when you don't want that 'demographic' what I'm hearing is "if you're bored, leave", which is not a good way to keep people in the community. Everyone progresses to that same listlessness eventually, some faster than others.
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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby paprika » Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:57 pm #33322

No, what I'm saying is "If you're bored, don't pick assistant and shit on everyone else's fun". This has degraded the job and created a massive stigma towards assistants. Removing maint access will be one of the steps to make it a newbie job again like it should be. If you're bored with the game you shouldn't be playing ss13 in the first place. There's plenty of shit to do and you can always create your own content for the game which is what we should be encouraging instead of 'lol just antag hunt or grey tide!'

Besides, if that's really the case, and people want to do something fun with maint access, they can always get it from the HoP. That's what he's there for anyway.
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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby Scott » Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:48 pm #33363

This would fix nothing and would cause even more problems.

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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:43 pm #33378

Why would it not fix anything and what problems would it cause.

The point is to reduce the appeal of assistant. It does the job if you ask me.

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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby Fatal » Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:25 pm #33403

I think if assistants have maint, then absolutely everyone else should have it

No responsibility should mean no access, at all, if you have responsibility, your access should go up

However, security should at the very least have maintenence access, maintenence should not be some place to feel safe as an antagonist, it's dark and there are places to hide, but it shouldn't be an automatic safe haven, you should have to at least work to hide from security, not just go through a door

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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby Hornygranny » Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:36 pm #33410

No, they don't need it for their job, and it enables them to be bad.
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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby paprika » Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:37 pm #33411

Scaredy is the one who told me to make this poll, by the way. So again, refer more people to it. A larger polling sample base would be nice if this server config is to be changed.
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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby Psyentific » Fri Oct 03, 2014 10:48 pm #33435

Incoming wrote:All I can say is that once you've hashed out the jobs for the umpteenth time the fun hijinks are all that's left to entertain. Old players march inexorably towards grey because once they've seen what there is to be seen, they gravitate to the job that best lets them make their OWN fun.

Old player here, started about two years ago. No, no I don't gravitate towards grey; Anything grey can offer me, another job can also do and usually does better.
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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby Incomptinence » Fri Oct 03, 2014 10:52 pm #33439

It is all well and good to want assistants to have no access. It isn't a magical cure all though, we have literally been there done that and not had everything turn to a glittering utopia. Clown and Mime have next to no access or responsibility and they are very consistently assistant level terrible, being idle is the problem if you wanted to reform assistants you would force them to be VERY busy.

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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby paprika » Fri Oct 03, 2014 10:54 pm #33440

Clown and mime are literally supposed to be terrible. They make bad pranks at the expense of others so people can laugh. The difference is assistants usually do it maliciously because they can get away with it IC and OOCly.
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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby Incomptinence » Fri Oct 03, 2014 10:59 pm #33443

I am not going to rub my computer on my forehead to determine which bandit has the most ill intent.

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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby ThatSlyFox » Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:15 pm #33452

Oh man. Now i will have to wait 5 minutes to get my maintenance access from the HoP. Sigh...

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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Sat Oct 04, 2014 7:33 am #33551

ThatSlyFox wrote:Oh man. Now i will have to wait 5 minutes to get my maintenance access from the HoP. Sigh...

Oh man, all those assistants I will not give maint access to as HoP or captain...

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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby Scott » Sat Oct 04, 2014 9:39 am #33572

Maintenance would need to be redone, since right now it's there for assistants. No point in having a big maint that's not gonna be used.

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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby Steelpoint » Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:02 am #33574

If Assistants lost maintenance access, it would provide a great excuse to streamline maintenance to be less of a maze at times.
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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby Cipher3 » Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:05 pm #33624

Why do you want to make maintenance less interesting, though? If you just follow along the actual main hallway entrances it's mostly straightforward anyways.
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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby bandit » Sat Oct 04, 2014 5:31 pm #33637

Incomptinence wrote:I am not going to rub my computer on my forehead to determine which bandit has the most ill intent.


OBJECTION

Anyway, I think assistant maint is... not a great idea, but it does open up interesting gameplay things (gray bars, building rooms, etc.) that are best done by people without responsibilities so that the engineers aren't off building an autism clubhouse when there are holes in the station. I'm not sure how to fix this. Maybe make assistants like every other role in that they have access to one section of maint? Disposals maint, maybe? Even the clown and mime can get into maint so this wouldn't be a huge change.

Also, agent IDs, if this goes through, would no longer have maint by default. I can't decide whether this is a good thing.
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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:02 pm #33651

Build bars in hallways. Genius, isn't it. May be someone will even find it.

Also, why would agent IDs not have maint?

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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby bandit » Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:25 pm #33657

Agent IDs have assistant-level access by default, which is the only thing that really makes sense in fluff.
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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby rosello » Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:14 pm #33861

Rather than removing maint access from assistants, I think that more jobs should have maint access in general. Security, medical doctors, those sorts.
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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby cedarbridge » Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:23 pm #33862

rosello wrote:Rather than removing maint access from assistants, I think that more jobs should have maint access in general. Security, medical doctors, those sorts.

Why?

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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:52 pm #33871

We already have that. It's called public fucking hallway.

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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby Atticat » Sun Oct 05, 2014 9:03 pm #33906

I dunno guys, as antag I often score an assistant ID from the hordes roaming aimlessly for some maint access. This would really gimp me in that deparment. Hacking is not a viable solution to get around maint quickly and inconspicuously so please don't mention it as an arguement. Emags leave a trail and are liable to have you perma-brigged if caught with one.
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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby lumipharon » Sun Oct 05, 2014 10:58 pm #33942

I feel like I bring up the same thing in every thread, but on meta station, every department has access to the maint around their departments, such as to let them go through the maint doors in their departments, through maint, and into the public corridors. This means a great deal of maint is accessible but atleast some people, that don't have maint access itself, with only the deeper maint areas being utterly and exclusively maint access only. Also maint bar strong.

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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby Psyentific » Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:01 am #34014

And now the poll is neck and neck - 26 people yes, 25 people no. Where's this silent majority coming from?
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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby paprika » Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:37 am #34025

memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=922

Are you seriously asking that?

People are making parrot accounts just to vote on this poll to keep assistant maint access.

That's how fucking desperate these grey tiding retards are.


Look at all the new accounts with 0 or 1 posts created in the past few days since this poll went up. Absolutely pathetic.
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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby Incomptinence » Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:42 am #34029

Yeah pretty bad changing my vote to abstain then since we can't even respect a non committal opinion poll. Whoever did this you are aware these forum polls don't bind the admins or coders to anything right?

Well it might be previous non forum account players joining on but it would be overly optimistic to believe that.

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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby kosmos » Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:00 am #34035

Our community has its good and bad, and I can't help but see all the bad being in players playing mainly assistant. Which is demonstrated also here on the poll cheating.

This has been said over and over again: Assistants break the balance of the game. They're supposed to be a "get your basic skills together", but a free pass to be a vigilante/antag/shitler. They're just too much fun, with 0 responsibility.

People making their own fun as an assistant are fine, they are not the problem. It's just that there are too much people who's fun is being a vigilante/antag/shitler, which is at the expense of other people's fun. If you contribute nothing, you should get nothing.

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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:06 am #34036

Can I say yet again that polls are terrible? ^^

lumipharon wrote:I feel like I bring up the same thing in every thread, but on meta station, every department has access to the maint around their departments, such as to let them go through the maint doors in their departments, through maint, and into the public corridors. This means a great deal of maint is accessible but atleast some people, that don't have maint access itself, with only the deeper maint areas being utterly and exclusively maint access only. Also maint bar strong.

So like let department people access all maint doors in close proximity to their department? I think that's actually a pretty cool idea.
Atticat wrote:I dunno guys, as antag I often score an assistant ID from the hordes roaming aimlessly for some maint access. This would really gimp me in that deparment. Hacking is not a viable solution to get around maint quickly and inconspicuously so please don't mention it as an arguement. Emags leave a trail and are liable to have you perma-brigged if caught with one.

Agent ID, mate. Nothing stops us from leaving it with maint access.

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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby Psyentific » Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:06 am #34037

paprika wrote:http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=922

Are you seriously asking that?

People are making parrot accounts just to vote on this poll to keep assistant maint access.

That's how fucking desperate these grey tiding retards are.


Look at all the new accounts with 0 or 1 posts created in the past few days since this poll went up. Absolutely pathetic.

Can we get some IP Bans going on, then?
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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby paprika » Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:17 am #34042

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:
lumipharon wrote:I feel like I bring up the same thing in every thread, but on meta station, every department has access to the maint around their departments, such as to let them go through the maint doors in their departments, through maint, and into the public corridors. This means a great deal of maint is accessible but atleast some people, that don't have maint access itself, with only the deeper maint areas being utterly and exclusively maint access only. Also maint bar strong.

So like let department people access all maint doors in close proximity to their department? I think that's actually a pretty cool idea.

This is already the case on boxstation, what the fuck are you guys on about

Edit: Nevermind, apparently the maint tunnel doors around departments have a SHITLOAD of required accesses on meta.

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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby Incomptinence » Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:33 am #34046

I would like a slight tweak in science and cargo maint entrances that departmental officers can access. The engineering officer and cargo officer patrol the same strip of maint together so switching things around so cargo mail room opens into south arrivals maint would be pretty fair. Science officer should have their slice be the maint leading south of arrivals but it is chopped up by toxins and gated behind science job rooms. Medical and engineering sec officer maint access make sense and can be quite handy.

There should be a service officer (we have a whole five of them by default) with access to parts of bar maintenance.

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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby MisterPerson » Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:57 am #34058

req_one_access just means you only need one of those accesses to open the door, not all of them.
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paprika
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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby paprika » Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:59 am #34061

Yeah I'm aware but I'm not sure if it's something that should be on box as well. The idea is to make maint LESS populated and dangerous, not more populated.
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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby cedarbridge » Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:08 am #34063

paprika wrote:Yeah I'm aware but I'm not sure if it's something that should be on box as well. The idea is to make maint LESS populated and dangerous, not more populated.

Generally speaking, maint access for departments is localized. It exists because maint is a radiation shelter for radiation storm events. Departments run to their department maint doors, wait out the storm and return to work. It doesn't do much for "populating" maint because they can't open the doors to other parts of maint.

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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby paprika » Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:13 am #34064

But you can already access maint from your department on boxstation assuming you have access to that department. I mean the maint doors connected to the hallway. Look at my screenshot and look at the door that's selected. It's a hallway maint door that can be accessed by people in science because it's 'next to science' even though it's not connected to the department directly.
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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby Incoming » Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:07 am #34090

paprika wrote:http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=922

Are you seriously asking that?

People are making parrot accounts just to vote on this poll to keep assistant maint access.

That's how fucking desperate these grey tiding retards are.

Look at all the new accounts with 0 or 1 posts created in the past few days since this poll went up. Absolutely pathetic.


That, or people who play the game but don't use the forums (which is most people) were alerted to the fact that "hey a big, supposedly binding, vote is going on in the forums that could ruin how a lot of us play the game" and made legitimate accounts specifically to vote in this.

I mean it could be either, but it doesn't HAVE to be a conspiracy.
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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby paprika » Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:13 am #34091

The poll was winning by a fucking landslide towards removing assistant maint and all these votes happened extremely fast (like in 12 hours or so)

You can't tell me that isn't suspicious

Can't moderators look into this shit anyway? Scaredy is the one who told me to make a poll for this, so it's a rather important thing to look into it for since it might actually decide the fate of assistant maint
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.

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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby Bluespace » Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:15 am #34092

>going assistant when you're bored.
>not glorious free gloves and tools yellow tide engineer master race.
Unacceptable.
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Re: Assistant Maint Access Poll

Postby Stickymayhem » Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:26 am #34115

We are currently investigating the poll spamming and accounts.
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