Dermal Armour Patch: Good night sweet prince

callanrockslol · Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:37 am

Bottom post of the previous page:

miggles wrote:
paprika wrote:The uniform looked like shit, sorry Adam Jensen.
aka
paprika wrote:opinions

OPINIONS ARE FACT.
OPINIONS ARE TRUTH.
HEIL TRUFAPION.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:54 am #38988

The uniform was fine and no one aside from Rock, Miauw (To an extent, he told me he wants to remain neutral and really does not give a shit) and you complained about its existence, of which that only come to light during your PR.

Why should we have to compromise on something that only you really seem to disagree with so vehemently? From what we've seen, about three people have gone on record to agree with the removal of the uniform, same said for the patch. Yet we have dozens of people against its removal.

--

When there is this much controversy over the removal of two clothing options that have been proven to not negatively effect people in game and are for a job of which only a single slot exists. I have to question why you are we maintaining your stance outside of ego or a inability to step down.

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 8:59 am #39002

Seems legit, make one of the most shitty roles to play even shittier by making the HoS look like a clown. Good plan Pap, real swell work you are throwing sec. The entire reason to wear the dermal was so you could have an unobstructed sec gas mask. Since that look is now impossible, and the new hat looks like shit, its now time to wear the riot helmet for style. Also, everything in SS13 has been ripped from some other form of scifi, get over yourself.

paprika wrote:
Steelpoint wrote: not to mention that paprika simply does not want to compromise
I'm not sure if you're stupid or ignorant at this point, stop pushing this bogus agenda that I'm a fun hater. The uniform looked like shit, sorry Adam Jensen.

Didn't realize this was a policestate under coderbus where the majority of people's opinions don't matter. Exactly why you guys should be brought under the headmin.

omnitricks · Post by **omnitricks** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 9:25 am #39004

Departmental identity. Says the person that removes the identity of every greyshirt every by randomizing their jumpsuit colours to the point my eyes hurt because so much bright.

Stop trying to defend this shitty change when no one actually likes it. What? Did you fail to kill a HoS as an antag because you were too lazy to check what he was actually equipped with?

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 9:25 am #39005

Paprka you are acting extremely childish as shown in every post you have made in this thread. Not a single reason has been made by you that isn't your personal opinion. Simply give the hat as another option. Options are good right?

Fully agree with Steelpoint on this one. Especially this:

When there is this much controversy over the removal of two clothing options that have been proven to not negatively effect people in game and are for a job of which only a single slot exists. I have to question why you are we maintaining your stance outside of ego or a inability to step down.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 9:32 am #39006

I actually have a PR ready to go that will re add the Dermal Patch/Black Uniform to the HoS's locker, gives the Warden the Drill Hat, and adjusts the HoS's armour values around of which people like HG and Pap agreed to a while ago.

I'm just hopeful that Pap will at least concede that he made a unpopular choice and concede. Paprika is digging himself into a corner of which he will never recover in the eye's of the playerbase, I really don't want to see Pap go away or be reviled as despite the events of the past few days I don't dislike pap.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:22 am #39010

Don't try and paint the patch/jumpsuit negatively by calling it cosplay. By the same logic engineers are cosplaying because of their hardsuits etc etc. SS13 is full of references - it's not a bad thing. And while I don't use the black jumpsuit myself (and god knows the formal uniform is pretty ugly), it's still nice to have choice. Why have some arbitrary limit of '2 uniform choices each'?

The argument that it's too strong is also irrelevent here, since if that's the case, reduce it's stats (keeping in mind the no flash protection is already quite significant. But honestly, who wears the patch with the explicit idea of 'gunna powergame because no one will know I have armor on my head'?

Oldman Robustin · Mon Oct 27, 2014 2:22 pm

Cheridan wrote:
Not everyone is an experienced player 360notoolbox SS13 veteran.

Let me tell you a little story. I returned from a period of being burnt out to the game, a long while ago. So I'm traitor, or something, and I see this guy running around in a black jumpsuit with this shitty dumpy black coat. He looked like a space hobo, and since he was wearing all black I figured he was a chaplain or something. So I jump him in escape, and he goes down. And I start to hit him in the head. And keep hitting, and hitting, and hitting... Then he pops right up and tases the shit out of me, because oops as it turns out that dumpy hobo was the HoS who happened to be wearing the most powerful and most invisible headgear in the game, which had been added during my hiatus.

All I see here is "I'm an idiot, please drag the game down to my level".

Next Pull Request:

-I shot the HoS again since he was wearing a different color jumpsuit than I expected
-Warden saw he was in danger and triggered his secret chem/healing implant
-Obviously this is broken, HoS will now be forced to drag a "HEAD OF SECURITY, DO NOT TOUCH" sign behind them at all times
-HoS has also had all unique gear removed, my brain literally cannot comprehend security having multiple appearances or color themes, HoS will now wear default security gear (admin enforced).

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 2:57 pm #39048

I do not care that the dermal armor patch was removed. I will go without a helmet as HoS because I hate the HoS hats and my characterd hair looks fly. I will forever love and miss the alternate black head of security jumpsuit. It was sooo cool, looking extremely black. Only thing like it in the game (because ninja jumpsuits dont count because you can't get them without lel admin spawn). I don't even care about the melee protection. Remove it if need be. I just liked the color.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 3:14 pm #39050

As I said, I hope to re add the removed items and move Pap's Warden hat and give it to the Warden.

Of course, there is a difference between hope and reality.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 5:38 pm #39063

>Drill Instructor
>Warden hat

Also your signature has your epic character wearing the default HoS hat, I wonder why that is? Maybe people wouldn't recognize the HoS without it :^)

I've never seen people so absolutely autistic about their inability to powergame and keep their snowflake haircut. I wish I could say hey, this is all about being unique and personalizing your character which is totally roleplay friendly, but no, if that was the case you wouldn't wear a helmet at all, you just really need that invisible damage protection as well.

Talk about unrobust. And that's not opinion, it's fact.

As for the black jumpsuit, once again, make a better one that doesn't look like a skintight nine inch nails outfit and I'll be perfectly happy to add it myself. Only a week before the feature freeze starts though, you don't have much time to take me up on that offer.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 5:58 pm #39067

paprika wrote:-snip-

"I can't refute his points, better attack his character and insult my detractors."

As I've said before, and many others have reiterated, the only excuse you have to the removal of the afformentiond items boils down to "my opinion > your opinion". You have been proven to be wrong in this matter Paprika, and that is not opinion, it's fact.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:10 pm #39071

You're ignoring the fact that the dermal armor patch was not really removed so much as reskinned to not be invisible. If you can offer me a single reason why you need armor as well as no hat that doesn't make you look like a powergame apologist (the 'friendly and approachable' excuse is getting old too) then I'll be happy to readd it!

But all I've heard is "I DON'T LIKE HATS AND I WANT ARMOR! I DON'T CARE IF THE ITEM MAKES NO SENSE WHEN WE HAVE HEAD AUGS ALREADY!"

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:11 pm #39072

Oh, and I find it hilarious you want to be more 'friendly and approachable' by not wearing a hat and then want an all black uniform...

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:17 pm #39074

paprika wrote:Oh, and I find it hilarious you want to be more 'friendly and approachable' by not wearing a hat and then want an all black uniform...

Opinions ladies and gentlemen!

You want me to list out all the arguments being made to keep the items? Lets start from the beginning then, and these are not all of the posts made.

Spoiler:

people saying they like it reinforced how much more i wanted to remove it

i like the police cap more and i code and they don't
lel

No matter what clothing option the HoS goes for, he still stands out as the Head of Security. Anyone half way competent would know to be wary of the HoS irrespective if he is wearing a bloody cap or thermal patch.

The reason its on offer is to allow HoS players the option of wearing something less intimidating and more revealing.

I can understand this if we are talking about a more common or lower ranked crew member. But we are talking about Captain Robust himself, the Head of Security. No one literally has complained about these issues up until this PR. The only way Square Enix will send out a real life Lawyer is if you spammed their message box.

whether or not the coat is "security-themed" doesnt matter because there is literally nobody on the server who has played more than 5 rounds who doesnt recognize that the guy in the black suit with red sunglasses is the HoS.

Jensens outfit is not copyrighted or trademarked, so unless you're copying the asset directly there is no risk. Unless it is explicitly using his name or referencing the game.

Since you don't have any other real arguments against removing it you may as well leave it in a locke

What suddenly gave you the right to tell people what the true and false appearance of a job is against all other opinions?

This server has had the Dermal Patch for a very long time, well over a year at bare minimum, its even on the wiki with the HoS's alt appearance and that image has been up since about July last year.

The black appearance is a true, legitimate, HoS appearance.

>no fuck off, my opinion is more important than yours
>"stop being autistic"

that isnt how it works. and you really weren't trying to be polite in the first place.
the especially polite thing to do would be to not try and force your own opinion on people for no reason.

youre getting rid of a cosmetic item that people like for the sake of your own opinion
youre replacing it with something you think is better
what is wrong with keeping the first item and adding your own?

I liked the black jumpsuit too. There is nothing like it in game that is available to wear. Don't say ninja suit, because who the fuck is ever going to get a ninja suit? Now we all have to settle for those shitty black assistant jumpsuits. I didn't care about the melee defense, I just liked how dark it was.

If the jumpsuit had a different name and description you'd never even know it was an allusion to Deus Ex.

The dermal patch isn't even a straight upgrade. Regular sec officers are protected from flashbangs yet Warden and HoS isn't.

The dermal patch was and is fine. Steelpoint was onto it in the PR. Literally nobody outside of the 'bus complained about it and the HoS is still visible as the HoS while wearing it. Its visible via examine and via assumption because they aren't wearing their hat. This is just another case of.

The patch has no flash bang protection, which means flashbangs stun you, unlike the hat. This is a genuine huge downside.

Dermal patch was always a good cosnetic option for those who didn't want to look like a nazi monster. Look at my signature. And everyone knows that if HoS isn't wearing his regular hat, he is wearing dermal patch.

Paprka you are acting extremely childish as shown in every post you have made in this thread. Not a single reason has been made by you that isn't your personal opinion. Simply give the hat as another option. Options are good right?

All I see here is "I'm an idiot, please drag the game down to my level".

Post by **MMMiracles** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:57 pm #39077

While I'm not a big fan of the "I code and you don't so deal with it" ideal, the concept of having an invisible hardware on the same status as a riot helm seems awfully stupid. Maybe if the dermal patch had a more visible effect on the sprite (any), then it wouldn't be nearly that much of an issue.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:25 pm #39102

We already have that, it's called head augmentation, and it takes effort to achieve so steelpoint doesn't like it.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:27 pm #39104

so you're just going to ignore steelpoint's post huh

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 11:09 pm #39111

My attitude towards someone trying to make points in an argument is pretty familiar, isn't it?

Dermal patch HoS players in a nutshell

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 11:21 pm #39115

paprika wrote:We already have that, it's called head augmentation, and it takes effort to achieve so steelpoint doesn't like it.

Except head augmentation doesn't accomplish the same thing at all and adds a host of other problems. They're comparable only in a vague cosmetic sense. Do you even know what head augs do?

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Mon Oct 27, 2014 11:45 pm #39118

i had already typed up a long post before you ninjad me but
at this point there is no point
all you do is insult people and ignore their arguments entirely
any actual attempt at communicating with you ends in derision
you are incapable of being civil to people who disagree with you
i dont care anymore, you win, whatever

leibniz · Post by **leibniz** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 1:14 am #39125

This reminds me of the removal of art storage, not sure if anyone remembers that.
Anyway, I agree that invisible items arent really good, maybe the protection values should be reduced to offset that.
There is absolutely no problem with the black jumpsuit, the coders who let these things get merged should consider that this is why people joke about removing fun.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 1:48 am #39126

leibniz wrote:This reminds me of the removal of art storage, not sure if anyone remembers that.
Anyway, I agree that invisible items arent really good, maybe the protection values should be reduced to offset that.
There is absolutely no problem with the black jumpsuit, the coders who let these things get merged should consider that this is why people joke about removing fun.

Are people so creatively bankrupt that they can't think of something more suitable for the HoS than a shitty adam jensen skintight ninja outfit

Really

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 1:49 am #39127

leibniz wrote:Anyway, I agree that invisible items arent really good, maybe the protection values should be reduced to offset that.

I believe Steelpoint already has a PR to modify the armor values. It was already fairly offset by the lack of flash protection.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 1:55 am #39130

I'm gonna readd the dermal armor patch so it has no armor at all or flashbang protection then you'll all love me again because clearly the dermal armor patch is about aesthetic choices and personalization and not powergaming

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 1:58 am #39131

paprika wrote:I'm gonna readd the dermal armor patch so it has no armor at all or flashbang protection then you'll all love me again because clearly the dermal armor patch is about aesthetic choices and personalization and not powergaming

>I'm going to re-add an armor alternative except make it completely useless and because you guys won't wear useless armor you're clearly powergaming.

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:19 am #39136

You're right, who needs actual characters? Should just force random names and appearances for the entire playerbase instead.

If I play HoS though I'll probably still be using the dermal patch.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:28 am #39137

Showing off your hair =/= having a character btw and it also doesn't make you look less menacing especially when you wear all black so IDK what your real argument for this is other than the fact that you 'don't like the way the HoS hats look' in which case you can not wear them?

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:57 am #39138

now that you mention headaugs, why does augmenting your head not change the sprite? what if I want to attack their head, but don't realise it's augmented? I can't even find out with examine.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 3:04 am #39141

It does, it should be at the base of your neck and back of your head.

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 3:09 am #39142

you mean where the hair covers it all?

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 3:28 am #39149

paprika wrote:My attitude towards someone trying to make points in an argument is pretty familiar, isn't it?

Dermal patch HoS players in a nutshell

Hmm, I found something odd with that video, its almost like players like that get banned. But clearly your understanding is better then mine as your the only one who thinks your arguments have merit. And seriously, go fuck yourself for playing the I wear armor so I must be powergaming card. You clearly do not play security, or even space station 13 very often or you would know that sec starts wearing armor. Should we take this off? Maybe order some bluesec jumpsuits that have no armor value on the jumpsuit because thats the only way to avoid (in your eyes) powergaming?

Security on a hightech research station would be trained to expect a threat, and to be prepared when it arrives. Why do you think police officers IRL carry weapons when they maybe use them 0.01% of the time?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 3:44 am #39152

In all the months I used the aforementioned items I never even knew they were related to Dues Ex at all, I only figured it out when I was browsing the code a little while ago and its referenced as "Adam Jensen".

I actually did put up a PR that balanced the HoS hat a few weeks ago but the funny thing is was that it was closed by a headcoder.

Its also clear at this point that Paprika is doing all this out of spite.

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 3:46 am #39153

Steelpoint wrote:Its also clear at this point that Paprika is doing all this out of spite.

I don't think theres anyone that actually agrees with him aside from Cheridan. I am still trying to fathom why someone is attacking the HoS without an examination. If they that new, they shouldn't be a traitor. And if they aren't a traitor, and are new then they deserve a tempban. Ignorance is not a defense in the rules, and it shouldn't be when you get robusted.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 3:54 am #39155

I made a restoration PR here: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/5511

Lets see how it goes.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 3:57 am #39157

And closed!

That was almost 60 seconds!

Hornygranny · Post by **Hornygranny** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:01 am #39159

The dermal armor patch is not on the table for reimplementation. I'm not against the HoS having a black uniform option, but it needs to be a uniform, and not a superhero leotard.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:09 am #39160

I'm baffled. So since you can't come up with a good argument to have the items stay removed, you just pull rank and tell us to stop pestering the issue.

I'm content you at least explained why you did this on the forums, but I'm very disappointed. Its exact situations like this where the term "fun removers" are born from.

Whatever.

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:10 am #39161

Hornygranny wrote:The dermal armor patch is not on the table for reimplementation. I'm not against the HoS having a black uniform option, but it needs to be a uniform, and not a superhero leotard.

My standard HoS look: Truly look like a superhero.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:02 am #39170

the mask is what makes you look like a superhero, literally nothing else
there is no argument here, its just "im a coder and youre not so i get the right to do what i want"

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:25 am #39176

Those masks are pretty shit though style-wise.

I usually opt for a regular oxygen mask rather than the sec hailer when I go hatless.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:30 am #39178

miggles wrote:the mask is what makes you look like a superhero, literally nothing else
there is no argument here, its just "im a coder and youre not so i get the right to do what i want"

Its less that and more "I'm a headcoder". Anyone can be a coder really.

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:44 am #39183

Saegrimr wrote:Those masks are pretty shit though style-wise.

I usually opt for a regular oxygen mask rather than the sec hailer when I go hatless.

But you can spam the shouts while flicking your telescopic in the halls, can't do that with a regular mask.

Steelpoint wrote:
miggles wrote:the mask is what makes you look like a superhero, literally nothing else
there is no argument here, its just "im a coder and youre not so i get the right to do what i want"
Its less that and more "I'm a headcoder". Anyone can be a coder really.

Which is why these headcoders since they somehow have power on the server/forums yet don't fall under the headmin should be removed(as clearly evidenced by when one tried removing this thread). If they want to maintain their independence, let them, just branch off of the code like every other server did with things the community likes and coders who do it for the community rather than their own spiteful ideas that nobody likes.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 6:02 am #39184

Murazor wrote:
Saegrimr wrote:Those masks are pretty shit though style-wise.

I usually opt for a regular oxygen mask rather than the sec hailer when I go hatless.
But you can spam the shouts while flicking your telescopic in the halls, can't do that with a regular mask.

Personally, I just use the mask while I'm holding it to play the recordings since it looks kinda terrible on its own.

To the point of the thread and HG's "ruling," this will not accomplish what it sounds like it does. Pulling "rank" across lines like that will just end with more people with a bitter taste in their mouths in the future, even those uninvolved or uninterested in the specific nature of the ruling. I'm in an odd spot since I kinda have a dog in the race, but this really does put a nail on how much of a joke the "feedback" section of this forum is. When the chorus of disapproval for a change comes up and the response is "nope, veto, fuck off," what is anyone really supposed to expect in the future? Its already been established with this that posted feedback is ignored and remedy is rejected out of hand.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 6:16 am #39188

I can understand the justification of removing a robust invisible helmet, sure, but that's not what this was about in the first place. It was someone out to remove a set of adam jensen cosplay entirely for flimsy reasons other than "I don't like it". The argument to be had of the dermal armor patch was an afterthought, and even after the proposed significant nerfing of the armor patch it was still shot down. So this no longer looks like a problem of robustness, but more a problem of My Tastes vs Your Tastes.

Murazor wrote:But you can spam the shouts while flicking your telescopic in the halls, can't do that with a regular mask.

Shut up, crime.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 6:20 am #39190

I would be more than happy to compromise in nerfing the protection of the Dermal Patch by itself if I could get it back in. I like the look of the patch. But how do I compromise when my rebalances are closed and any attempt to get something going is shot down.

I will not be surprised if we see a sudden rise in PR's aimed at removing anything that references something from another game to help justify this PR, in fact that already happened.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 6:29 am #39192

Here's how the situation should have been handled in theory.

----

Me: I want to re add the Dermal Patch that was removed from the game, here is a long list of people who support its re addition from the feedback forum.

Headcoder: While I personally dislike the item, I can see a large amount of people want it back. Here's a compromise, what if you reduce the patch's protection as a trade off for it not being visible?

Me: I'll accept that, here are some values.

Headcoder: Ok, this seems fine/I think those values need more adjusting/etc, etc.

----

Instead, we got this!

----

Me: I want to re add the Dermal Patch that was removed from the game, here is a long list of people who support its re addition from the feedback forum.

Headcoder: We refuse to re add the item. We won't compromise despite the overwhelming support.

Me: ...

----

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 6:30 am #39193

Steelpoint wrote:I will not be surprised if we see a sudden rise in PR's aimed at removing anything that references something from another game to help justify this PR, in fact that already happened.

Better start with the reference in the soda machines too, if we're getting rid of any deus ex references.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 1:53 pm #39220

Cheridan wrote:Let me tell you a little story. I returned from a period of being burnt out to the game, a long while ago. So I'm traitor, or something, and I see this guy running around in a black jumpsuit with this shitty dumpy black coat. He looked like a space hobo, and since he was wearing all black I figured he was a chaplain or something. So I jump him in escape, and he goes down. And I start to hit him in the head. And keep hitting, and hitting, and hitting... Then he pops right up and tases the shit out of me, because oops as it turns out that dumpy hobo was the HoS who happened to be wearing the most powerful and most invisible headgear in the game, which had been added during my hiatus.

So hitting everybody in the head all the time has a downside? Wow, how is that even possible. Clearly shouldn't ever happen.

It goes without saying that it's good to at least take a closer look at someone you're about to kill. The least you can do.

Why the fuck would you ever remove sprites anyway? They just add variety.

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:45 pm #39244

Because the coderbus is full of NOFUNALLOWED assholes.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:04 pm #39245

iyaerP wrote:Because the coderbus is full of NOFUNALLOWED assholes.

This is rapidly becoming the case it seems.