Dont make space slow please

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:23 pm #47588

Bottom post of the previous page:

well considered and well reasoned post A+

soulgamer · Post by **soulgamer** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:25 pm #47589

What the hell do you mean there is no good feedback? People have constantly given you the most important feedback they can give.

IT IS NOT FUN

This is a GAME the point of a GAME is to have FUN. This detracts from the GAME and is NO FUN.

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:40 pm #47592

MisterPerson wrote:"it doesn't do what it was supposed to do" (not a reason to change or stay, doesn't matter)

This right here pisses me off. This single fucking line. This is a line of a guy who knows he has fucked up but his pride isn't letting him admit it.

MisterPerson wrote:Why, exactly, do you not have a jetpack? If you're an engineer, that's a fair complaint that should be resolved, but anyone else with a space suit but no jetpack has no excuse since either you stole it, which means you should have stolen a jetpack too, or you really shouldn't be in space at all to begin with.

Shows how much you play. There are like what, 3 jetpacks on station? 2 in eva and one in captain's office. Like 9 suits off the top of my head. Traitor space suit do not come with a jetpack as well.

PS: If your going to throw the bomb to HG, how about he comes and gives his opinion in this thread?

Please do HG, because Misterperson doesn't have any valid reasons to keep it in. I also enjoy how every time the community hates a code change it ends up being HG's fault. Incoming one line from HG saying it is going to stay as is.

This could all have been avoided if you thought who is going to get effected by this and how so. Going to shit up jetpacks and space at least give the people who have to be in space a good way to travel. Lack of foresight here honestly.

Spacemanspark · Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:09 pm

It could have been avoided by just asking the community before actually making the fucking changes.

Akkryls · Post by **Akkryls** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:18 pm #47612

Spacemanspark wrote:It could have been avoided by just asking the community before actually making the fucking changes.

The problem with that though is if every single change has to be voted on, nothing will ever get done.
Democracy is fucking slow, however we should be able to vote whether something should be reverted if it is causing enough grief that we have eight pages of people complaining about it.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:22 pm #47615

Personally I'm fine with these changes being put on the server.

What I hate is that when there is universal agreement that the idea is bad, that its not reverted.

Akkryls · Post by **Akkryls** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:24 pm #47617

Steelpoint wrote:Personally I'm fine with these changes being put on the server.

What I hate is that when there is universal agreement that the idea is bad, that its not reverted.

Isn't the usual ad nauseam response just "If you want it reverted, do it yourself"?
So if I were to go onto Git, and make a pull request changing the values of speed in space back to what they were before the original change, would it actually be accepted or would it just be denied on the grounds of messing with someone else's project?

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:26 pm #47618

I dunno. It would certainly be an interesting experiment, but I for one don't know where or WHAT the code in question is, how to use github, nor what variables actually need to be changed to fix this mess.

Akkryls · Post by **Akkryls** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:28 pm #47619

iyaerP wrote:I dunno. It would certainly be an interesting experiment, but I for one don't know where or WHAT the code in question is, how to use github, nor what variables actually need to be changed to fix this mess.

I assume you could just look back far enough in the github history to see what the original values were, and then change it back to that.
Hell, you could even just rip the values from another /tg/ source branch which still has the old space speed.

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:40 pm #47622

HG has yet to respond if they support this change or not. If they do then it would be denied.

I would say that the "do it yourself" argument coders do is terrible. We shouldn't have to fix the mistakes they made.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:49 pm #47627

whoa sly you shouldnt use ad hominem against me.

what do you say, you haven't actually made an ad hominem argument? too bad.

Please don't use arguments somebody literally didnt even make against them.

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:53 pm #47630

Miauw wrote:whoa sly you shouldnt use ad hominem against me.

what do you say, you haven't actually made an ad hominem argument? too bad.

Please don't use arguments somebody literally didnt even make against them.

Except that's exactly what happened. Mrperson said that he saw and understood that his changes were causing issues, but he wasn't going to revert them unless headcoder told him to. But if someone else wanted to fix his fuckup? Sure, that's fine, he wouldn't fight it. Nudge nudge wink wink.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 6:15 pm #47647

Akkryls wrote: Democracy is fucking slow, however we should be able to vote whether something should be reverted if it is causing enough grief that we have eight pages of people complaining about it.

I'd rather changes be slower than shitty changes are pushed through and then reverts are refused because "effort"

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 6:30 pm #47648

MisterPerson wrote:Reverting requires work. I don't want to do work for something I don't care strongly about. I plan on doing more stuff with movespeed in general later. At that point it'll just be changing a number.

Adding the code takes more work than removing it. Its your mess you should take responsibility for it. This "well, its already there time to stop caring" thing is pretty terrible. You apparently cared enough about it to add it so you should care enough about your own change to remove it when its found to be faulty. This is just a statement that you've made one mess here and are more interested in your next project than actually dealing with something you already made which people dislike. This is the "Don't care moved on." sort of argument that gets to people a lot.

MisterPerson wrote:Let's go through everyone who can get a space suit:

Captain: Get back on station asshole. Also comes with a jetpack.
Engineer: Engineering should come with jetpacks imo
Atmos Tech: Spacewalks are short, not impacted heavily
Miners: Were already slow. Only highlights real problem that asteroid is too big and takes too long to walk around. Job needs to be revamped as a whole.
Wizard: It's not like you have blink, jaunt, teleport, and a teleport scroll to move around quickly. Or maybe you should steal a jetpack from EVA. Alternatively, we could remove the gemsuit outright. Alternatively, we could spawn a jetpack with the gemsuit.
Nuke Op: Have jetpacks
Changelings/Traitors: Should be on the station antagonizing, not hiding in space like an asshole.

By this same logic we should remove space suits from traitors and lings because obviously there are no antag things they can be doing in space if you seriously believe this never touch antag code holy shit. The captain doesn't need a space suit (for some reason that goes unstated) and apparently everything else is whitewashed by your sudden obsession with saturating the station with jetpacks.
People enjoy moving through space. You've essentially turned anything involving space into a chore. When even doing simple things like wiring the solars is more of a chore than it already was there's a very basic problem. "get a jetpack to wire the solars" is beyond the pale of reason.

I'm not going to go against HG aka my boss without a damn good reason to do so.

So what you're really claiming here is that HE is requiring you to not revert a change that's unwanted and its not really you trying to justify not reverting said unwanted change? HG didn't present this change for merging and didn't code the thing. Hell, HG isn't even here defending said change against all negative feedback. Hell, this isn't even responsive to the point you quoted. The change does not positively affect the game and is a net-loss for gameplay generally. It did not achieve its stated goal and in-fact made life for the "targeted" group even worse. The quoted post doesn't mention HG at all and yet you bring him up as a shield. This is your code, your change, your problem.

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:11 pm #47652

Preach.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:41 am #47799

Good news everyone, a revert PR has been made on Github.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/6159

It was originally to revert the jetpack changes, but not it reverts the space changes.

Hopefully it will stick.

Post by **oranges** » Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:33 am #47852

Anyway, some of this democracy stuff is really unrelated, so please make a new thread for that. I think it makes sense to stick that in the same forum though.

Preamble · Post by **Preamble** » Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:15 pm #47927

Out of all the terrible recent changes, this one is the worst.

AnonymousNow · Post by **AnonymousNow** » Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:20 am #48510

God, this change. I'm one of those people who hated the removal of space equalisation (which let you stay undamaged in a cold, airless area, so long as you didn't step on a space tile - I only found out it was a bug when it was removed, and I still miss it), so you can imagine how much I hate this.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:08 pm #48840

AnonymousNow wrote:God, this change. I'm one of those people who hated the removal of space equalisation (which let you stay undamaged in a cold, airless area, so long as you didn't step on a space tile - I only found out it was a bug when it was removed, and I still miss it), so you can imagine how much I hate this.

"i wish i could still exploit this bug" really doesn't do much good for your credibility. it's getting reverted anyway.

danno · Post by **danno** » Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:35 pm #48861

this was a dumb change lol
why y'all don't just ask people before doin stuff you're all supposed to be part of the same community

Post by **oranges** » Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:48 am #48926

Ship it

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:23 am #48969

oranges wrote:

Ship it

In the case of Spessmen fun isn't ruining game mechanics.

Incomptinence · Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:39 am

Relabel the box as code and you might be onto something.

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:58 am #49418

So I am not sure if this is a suit change, a chem change, or a byproduct of this change, but as a miner yesterday, I noticed that hyperzine no longer has any effect if you are in a hardsuit. Thus negating the entire purpose of having it. Mining is now shit again because stim pens do NOTHING except shave 20 seconds off delivering to RnD.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:29 am #49667

This is the worst shit ever. No, seriously. Before, if you fought someone in space who had a jetpack, it was difficult but not impossible, since, while you were bound to the building and you could slip, you could maneuver almost as fast as he could.

Now, jetpacks just wipe the fucking floor with every single thing that steps outside. Clown fucking around near the armory with a canister? You might as well be trying to defeat God in hand-to-hand combat. It's not like you have a shot at defending either.

It's a terrible change, and I haven't heard a single person say that they 'like it'. Only that they tolerate it. Even after the reversion, it's still bad for this exact reason. No one wants to go in space any more, because it takes a buttload of time to travel with slowspace, you can no longer break out of perma with some clever carrots + ambrosia + gloves + manufactured satchel and such, beelining to either end of the station and escaping barely, if at full health to begin with. No longer are magboots useful or wantable. Combine this with stimulants not affecting spacesuits properly, and it makes ANYTHING in space a chore.

Space used to have some of the most fun, robust combat in the game. Now it's the worst. It's an unneeded change that was implemented without community involvement. Another sign of an increasingly out-of-touch coderbase.

Random Players · Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:12 am

Will you people please stop fucking saying no one likes it? At the very least, I have myself said that I DO like it. Look at the second page, Amelius.

I get that the ones that dislike it seem to be the majority (barring the ones that like it just being silent), but don't act like there is no one that likes it.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:16 am #49737

Amelius wrote:This is the worst shit ever. No, seriously. Before, if you fought someone in space who had a jetpack, it was difficult but not impossible, since, while you were bound to the building and you could slip, you could maneuver almost as fast as he could.

Now, jetpacks just wipe the fucking floor with every single thing that steps outside. Clown fucking around near the armory with a canister? You might as well be trying to defeat God in hand-to-hand combat. It's not like you have a shot at defending either.

It's a terrible change, and I haven't heard a single person say that they 'like it'. Only that they tolerate it. Even after the reversion, it's still bad for this exact reason. No one wants to go in space any more, because it takes a buttload of time to travel with slowspace, you can no longer break out of perma with some clever carrots + ambrosia + gloves + manufactured satchel and such, beelining to either end of the station and escaping barely, if at full health to begin with. No longer are magboots useful or wantable. Combine this with stimulants not affecting spacesuits properly, and it makes ANYTHING in space a chore.

Space used to have some of the most fun, robust combat in the game. Now it's the worst. It's an unneeded change that was implemented without community involvement. Another sign of an increasingly out-of-touch coderbase.

wow we tested a change and then reverted it because it was shit, we must be incredibly out of touch.
lets never change anything about the game again, hope you like your stagnating spesshmans.

Akkryls · Post by **Akkryls** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:06 pm #49749

Miauw wrote:wow we tested a change and then reverted it because it was shit, we must be incredibly out of touch.
lets never change anything about the game again, hope you like your stagnating spesshmans.

To be fair, MisterPerson made the change, then said he wasn't going to revert it because it was effort that he didn't want to put in.
So it's only been reverted because someone else (Oranges?) came along and put up a revert PR.

And that it took eight pages of this thread before a revert PR was made. (Probably countless bitching on Singulo.io too)
So it's pretty accurate to say you guys are out of touch. I'm not part of the whole "CODERS ARE SHIT IN THEIR INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS TOWER" crowd, but we moved to Github and the whole pull request system to move away from google code's style of being able to push code updates to the codebase without any oversight, yet we still seem to have stuff which is almost entirely disliked put through like this and then the people who put it through just seem to ignore or forget about it rather than fixing or reverting it.

I appreciate the fact you guys do this out of your own time and have the experience and knowledge of the code to do so, but seriously, dealing with the people that the code is affecting could do with some work.

Post by **MisterPerson** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:06 pm #49787

I think the situation was "dealt" with just fine.

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:08 pm #49789

Wait, so if this got "fixxed," why is space still like swimming in molasses? Because it is still like swimming in molasses.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:19 pm #49792

Server may not have been updated yet.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:07 pm #49814

Miauw wrote:
Amelius wrote:This is the worst shit ever. No, seriously. Before, if you fought someone in space who had a jetpack, it was difficult but not impossible, since, while you were bound to the building and you could slip, you could maneuver almost as fast as he could.

Now, jetpacks just wipe the fucking floor with every single thing that steps outside. Clown fucking around near the armory with a canister? You might as well be trying to defeat God in hand-to-hand combat. It's not like you have a shot at defending either.

It's a terrible change, and I haven't heard a single person say that they 'like it'. Only that they tolerate it. Even after the reversion, it's still bad for this exact reason. No one wants to go in space any more, because it takes a buttload of time to travel with slowspace, you can no longer break out of perma with some clever carrots + ambrosia + gloves + manufactured satchel and such, beelining to either end of the station and escaping barely, if at full health to begin with. No longer are magboots useful or wantable. Combine this with stimulants not affecting spacesuits properly, and it makes ANYTHING in space a chore.

Space used to have some of the most fun, robust combat in the game. Now it's the worst. It's an unneeded change that was implemented without community involvement. Another sign of an increasingly out-of-touch coderbase.
wow we tested a change and then reverted it because it was shit, we must be incredibly out of touch.
lets never change anything about the game again, hope you like your stagnating spesshmans.

is this the "revert was our idea all along" post?

youngbuckliontiger · Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:18 pm

Amelius wrote:Now, jetpacks just wipe the fucking floor with every single thing that steps outside. Clown fucking around near the armory with a canister? You might as well be trying to defeat God in hand-to-hand combat. It's not like you have a shot at defending either.

I'm the clown who always raid security and kills all sec officers. I've been using slow space against sec officers and it's working pretty good. The slow space is a really disadvantage to people without space suits because of it's slowness. Like i was fighting a crowd of security officers, I stunned one sec officer and dragged him to space. The rest could only watch and cry as i kidnapped the officer to space. They tried to rescue him but they all got caught out in the air lock and died because they cant get back to the station.

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:46 pm #49833

youngbuckliontiger wrote:
Amelius wrote:Now, jetpacks just wipe the fucking floor with every single thing that steps outside. Clown fucking around near the armory with a canister? You might as well be trying to defeat God in hand-to-hand combat. It's not like you have a shot at defending either.
I'm the clown who always raid security and kills all sec officers. I've been using slow space against sec officers and it's working pretty good. The slow space is a really disadvantage to people without space suits because of it's slowness. Like i was fighting a crowd of security officers, I stunned one sec officer and dragged him to space. The rest could only watch and cry as i kidnapped the officer to space. They tried to rescue him but they all got caught out in the air lock and died because they cant get back to the station.

No you get a syndicate suit from the derelict, void jetpack, clown id from the shuttle and pump hyperzi e into your body causing old space combat vs bad space

youngbuckliontiger · Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:24 pm

shsss im trying to get space reverted back to normal here..

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:30 pm #49844

Hyperzine doesn't work in space suits anymore.

Post by **oranges** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:44 pm #49894

This thread has served it's purpose. We heard your feedback, I have made the change to previous values and it has been merged.

Please avoid commenting more in the thread.

callanrockslol · Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:46 am

iyaerP wrote:Hyperzine doesn't work in space suits anymore.

This needs to be addressed.

oranges wrote:This thread has served it's purpose. We heard your feedback, I have made the change to previous values and it has been merged.

Please avoid commenting more in the thread.

There are still things to discuss.

Pybro · Post by **Pybro** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:15 pm #52162

1) Mag boots are useless now.

2) Hyperzine got nerfed. This also nerfed the mining medipens making them completely useless.

3) Hyperzine no longer affects golems (if it did ever).

However, the lack of 24/7 YOU SLIPPED plus new physics is amazing. So, I have to ask this: Why must we choose between two versions of NO FUN ALLOWED? Why can't we have fast space AND no slipping + new space physics?

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:20 pm #52166

Pybro wrote:2) Hyperzine got nerfed. This also nerfed the mining medipens making them completely useless.

3) Hyperzine no longer affects golems (if it did ever).

I think this is actually the same issue. Golems are odd in that they're their own species but they exist as functionally human dolls with undroppable/unremovable "clothing" that functions as an armored spacesuit and mask. The fact that the "boots" don't stop glass shards and the "gloves" don't stop shocks are unaddressed bugs that I haven't been able to pin down yet.