3 out 4 of my last deaths were from an alien hunter

[Oldman Robustin]

This is getting stupid guys.

Double movespeed?

Then you removed alien pocket slots so aliens just murderboner instead of handing out facehuggers now?

Leap has no chem cost and serves as a spammable ranged stun?

Do you coders even play the fucking game?

Also admins please stahp, one alien hunter can wipe out half the station if he just plays smart.

Github brings the facts:

Assuming the default configs of
RUN_DELAY = 1, HUMAN_DELAY = ALIEN_DELAY = 0 and TICKLAG = 0.9,
the move_delay of a running human is
move_delay = 1 - 1.3 + (1/0.9)*1.3 = 1.14
and of a running alien hunter
move_delay = -1 +1 - 1.3 + (1/0.9)*1.3 = 0.14

Thus, without modifiers from clothing, reagents, hunger, health or temperature, the alien hunter has 8 times smaller movement delay than a human, and possibly the smallest move delay of any mob in the game.

[Alex Crimson]

One human can wipe out the station if he plays smart. Admins better start turning everyone into Corgis to keep things balanced and fair.

Hunters die in 4 hits from a normal laser gun. Hell, they die so fast it takes a few seconds for the server to even register it before it knocks you into crit. Stop whining just because something killed you.

[cedarbridge]

He has a point though. The only way a human is getting 4 shots off on a xeno without getting 1-touch dunked is for the xeno to basically stand there and take it. They're supposedly intended to be "total round enders" (which makes it really hillarious when xeno players whine that the shuttle gets called when a xeno is spotted.) Unfortunately, it seems too often to be the favored "time to end the round" button and just ends up assblasting the station. Hell, I've seen random spawn xenos show up at the 20 minute mark (what the hell) and dunk nuke ops trying to get into the station.

[Alex Crimson]

They are supposed to be killing machines in melee combat. How about you dont try to fight them with crowbars/cardborg helmets and instead get some actual gear. Hunters are designed to beat people if they get close. You say you got killed by a Hunter? Well as a Hunter ive been killed just as much from getting lasered to death before the game even registers ive been hit.

Aliens thrive in situations where the station make dumb decisions and try to zerg the hive unprepared. If the station gets infested, then its their own damn fault for feeding the Aliens hosts.

[cedarbridge]

They are supposed to be killing machines in melee combat. How about you dont try to fight them with crowbars/cardborg helmets and instead get some actual gear. Hunters are designed to beat people if they get close.

You can do better than this. Beating a strawman isn't going to convince anyone.

[RG4]

He has a point though. The only way a human is getting 4 shots off on a xeno without getting 1-touch dunked is for the xeno to basically stand there and take it. They're supposedly intended to be "total round enders" (which makes it really hillarious when xeno players whine that the shuttle gets called when a xeno is spotted.) Unfortunately, it seems too often to be the favored "time to end the round" button and just ends up assblasting the station. Hell, I've seen random spawn xenos show up at the 20 minute mark (what the hell) and dunk nuke ops trying to get into the station.

Some people get Xenos from mining because lol Xenos. Best reason why they're round enders because they can give dead players a chance at doing something rather waiting forever and they can arguably fucked up the station in decent numbers. Plus just blowing the station w/o having the crew fight for the nuke or the nuke code isn't that fun.

[paprika]

r e k t
e
k
t

[Aranclanos]

so you died and you want nerfs

HUH

[paprika]

Best reason why they're round enders because they can give dead players a chance at doing something rather waiting forever and they can arguably fucked up the station in decent numbers.

You're like the one person to realize that aliens are supposed to end the round thus aren't supposed to have 'fair' combat.

Seriously, why are people so adamant about nerfing aliens? That's like nerfing the death squad.

[Cheridan]

so you died and you want nerfs

HUH

lol ye

he should git gud

nerfs are bad, guys

[ThatSlyFox]

At this point there is no reason to be another type of alien if a queen is present. A hunter is far more efficient at protecting the hive and assaulting the crew than the other two types. The spit made the sentinel powerful in its own way. Allowing robust combat in close quarters as compared to the hunter who had to charge through lasers. With leap the spit has become obsolete.

I propose we make it so hunters can no longer plant weeds. This way they won't stray to far from the hive and more likely to bring someone back when they have to.

Edit: Forgot to mention drones. They are useless if a queen is present.

[Oldman Robustin]

They are supposed to be killing machines in melee combat. How about you dont try to fight them with crowbars/cardborg helmets and instead get some actual gear. Hunters are designed to beat people if they get close. You say you got killed by a Hunter? Well as a Hunter ive been killed just as much from getting lasered to death before the game even registers ive been hit.

Aliens thrive in situations where the station make dumb decisions and try to zerg the hive unprepared. If the station gets infested, then its their own damn fault for feeding the Aliens hosts.

This screams "I've never actually fought a hunter since the speed changes".

There is no "gear" that keeps you alive. I was killed last time during a revolution wear the HoS armor and drill hat, among the strongest armor in the game. I also had a full loadout of standard security equipment.

None of it mattered of course, the thing moved much, much faster than me and it was only a matter of time before it got its stun off. After that it was the classic stun, slash, slash, slash, stun routine.

Hunter health is fine. Hunter stun immunity is meh (a short 1-2s stun or longer slow would be appropriate). Hunter stun spam is lame but necessary. Hunter speed though is stupid. Ever since they nerfed everyone's speed, having a speed advantage on station is akin to godhood.

The speed is what makes them more dangerous than almost anything in this game has to offer. Keep the leap mechanic, give aliens pocket slots again, but for fuck's sake don't make them sanic-fast.

[cedarbridge]

Best reason why they're round enders because they can give dead players a chance at doing something rather waiting forever and they can arguably fucked up the station in decent numbers.

You're like the one person to realize that aliens are supposed to end the round thus aren't supposed to have 'fair' combat.

Seriously, why are people so adamant about nerfing aliens? That's like nerfing the death squad.

Generally this is because the means by which they end rounds is removing everyone else what was still on the station (and not bitching in deadchat) from said station. This includes in-round antags or (as mentioned) special case antags like nuke ops that would have ended the round anyway and instead just turns the round into a metarace to get your objectives done before the xenos button is pushed and the round is forced to an end.

[Oldman Robustin]

Best reason why they're round enders because they can give dead players a chance at doing something rather waiting forever and they can arguably fucked up the station in decent numbers.

You're like the one person to realize that aliens are supposed to end the round thus aren't supposed to have 'fair' combat.

Seriously, why are people so adamant about nerfing aliens? That's like nerfing the death squad.

They weren't given an endless stream of nerfs so that they could become "round enders".

Oldqueens used to be round-enders when they were almost unkillable on weeds, had almost no real vulnerability, could move with little-to-no speed penalty, and helmets offered NO protection against facehuggers.

There have probably been 10+ nerfs to aliens in the last 2 years, which is why it's so crazy that hunters are in their current state. Someone in the coderbus didn't appreciate how important the speed advantage is now and just tossed it to hunters as a consolation prize without realizing it made them one of the strongest entities in SS13.

It also shouldn't be spawned by admins every other round if its supposed to be a guaranteed station genocide.

I was made into a larva about 45 minutes into a round simply because things were going slow. Today.

Ultimately I'd rather see admins keep it as a round-spicing option, without having it become Space NInja 2.0 with some unkillable godlike entity roaming around maint slam-dunking anyone unlucky enough to end up in its path.

[Alex Crimson]

Was the speed buffed in the last few weeks? If so then i havent played the new Hunters. If its the same speed they had weeks ago, then its fine.

Literally 4 shots and you can kill a Hunter. If you cannot shoot a hunter 4 times as its running towards you, then its your own problem. Dont make nerf topics because something killed you.

[cedarbridge]

Was the speed buffed in the last few weeks? If so then i havent played the new Hunters. If its the same speed they had weeks ago, then its fine.

Literally 4 shots and you can kill a Hunter. If you cannot shoot a hunter 4 times as its running towards you, then its your own problem. Dont make nerf topics because something killed you.

So you're saying if somebody cannot (via click delay) fire 4 shots perfectly in the time it takes one of the fastest mobs in the game to appear on screen and click you once, that's the player's fault entirely? Do you realize how silly that sounds?

[Incomptinence]

Oh hunters were buffed. I gotta see this.

[ThatSlyFox]

Hitting a hunter running around the halls is almost impossible unless they are going in a straight path. Good luck if that fucker decides to leap across the screen. Trust me I played hunter a few days ago. I wrecked shit against anyone, lasers or not. I pretty much had escape blocked off by myself because of leap. Something will change about hunters, coders just don't want to realize it yet.

All the speed nerfs coders do and they defend the hunters speed? ayy lmao

Oh hunters were buffed. I gotta see this.

The speed change has been in for a while but the recent leap ability is, in my opinion, the biggest issue.

[Alex Crimson]

You are telling me that with server lag you can blitz up to someone as a Hunter and click them in one go? Yeah i doubt it. Ive played Hunter before and ive never been able to down someone that fast if they are prepared for it. They can run away and shoot at the same time to make it even harder.

Sure there will be plenty of examples where a Hunter has closed the gap faster and disarmed someone before they could shoot, but then there are just as many examples of players gunning them down. There are far more variables here than just Hunter speed. You know one reason that Hunters kill so many people? Because most players choose to evolve into a Hunter. Its the fastest and most fun of the 3 Alien roles, so you see far more than Drones or Sentinels.

But no, im sure you died because Hunters are OP. I mean, what else could it possibly be?

[ThatSlyFox]

You are telling me that with server lag you can blitz up to someone as a Hunter and click them in one go? Yeah i doubt it. Ive played Hunter before and ive never been able to down someone that fast if they are prepared for it. They can run away and shoot at the same time to make it even harder.

Sure there will be plenty of examples where a Hunter has closed the gap faster and disarmed someone before they could shoot, but then there are just as many examples of players gunning them down. There are far more variables here than just Hunter speed. You know one reason that Hunters kill so many people? Because most players choose to evolve into a Hunter. Its the fastest and most fun of the 3 Alien roles, so you see far more than Drones or Sentinels.

But no, im sure you died because Hunters are OP. I mean, what else could it possibly be?

Are you saying leap isn't OP? A no plasma ability that lets them stun from a range? Be real here

Also we should be looking at why the other two types are such shit compared to a hunter.

[Alex Crimson]

Oh yeah, leap is OP as fuck. It looks awesome but i have no idea why that was added in such an overpowered state.

[Saegrimr]

Also we should be looking at why the other two types are such shit compared to a hunter.

Thats funny because it used to be nobody went hunter because it didn't have a ranged stun like the other xenos.

[Oldman Robustin]

Literally 4 shots and you can kill a Hunter. If you cannot shoot a hunter 4 times as its running towards you, then its your own problem. Dont make nerf topics because something killed you.

I would classify it as the opposite: If, as a skilled hunter, you get hits 4 times... something is wrong with you and its your own problem.

Plus let's not forget that, by default, 4 crewmembers have access to laser-capable weaponry and security is notoriously shitty not responding appropriately to xeno sightings.

[Oldman Robustin]

You are telling me that with server lag you can blitz up to someone as a Hunter and click them in one go? Yeah i doubt it. Ive played Hunter before and ive never been able to down someone that fast if they are prepared for it. They can run away and shoot at the same time to make it even harder.

Sure there will be plenty of examples where a Hunter has closed the gap faster and disarmed someone before they could shoot, but then there are just as many examples of players gunning them down. There are far more variables here than just Hunter speed. You know one reason that Hunters kill so many people? Because most players choose to evolve into a Hunter. Its the fastest and most fun of the 3 Alien roles, so you see far more than Drones or Sentinels.

But no, im sure you died because Hunters are OP. I mean, what else could it possibly be?

You realize space lag doesn't just affect melee right?

Spawn me as a hunter and you as a laser-wielder in thunderdome and try to land 4 shots on me before you go dry while I juke around your screen so fast that the game struggles to keep up.

Christ you've got your head in the sand.

[Alex Crimson]

So we have established that player skill is a major factor in the ability to play as a Hunter or a laser-wielding crew member. A robust Hunter will kill someone who has bad aim. I fail to see an issue with this. Robust players should be better at combat than most. Pretty sure thats why we call them robust.

If you are just running around avoiding lasers, then it pretty easy to do. This isnt limited to Hunters. Even normal crew can do a good job of avoiding taser/laser shots in a 3-tile wide hallway. If its a Hunter in an open area like the Thunderdome, then i have no trouble believing that you could avoid every shot. But hell, you could do that as a human too. But in a hallway where the Hunter has to get up close to you, and you are actively running backwards shooting at it? Yeah, its not as easy in a situation like that.

If Hunters were slower, players would just kite them and have very little trouble killing them. Hunters need to be fast to get into melee range.

[Dorsidwarf]

I think we should avoid nerfing Xeno hunters for the express reason that they are the game's hard counter to Oldman Robustin.

[MMMiracles]

i personally find the leap a good addition, mostly because I've managed to duke a hunter into smashing into a wall before, which was pretty damn funny. Make it so you can taunt a red cape at lunging xenos and we're golden.

[Oldman Robustin]

So we have established that player skill is a major factor in the ability to play as a Hunter or a laser-wielding crew member. A robust Hunter will kill someone who has bad aim. I fail to see an issue with this. Robust players should be better at combat than most. Pretty sure thats why we call them robust.

If you are just running around avoiding lasers, then it pretty easy to do. This isnt limited to Hunters. Even normal crew can do a good job of avoiding taser/laser shots in a 3-tile wide hallway. If its a Hunter in an open area like the Thunderdome, then i have no trouble believing that you could avoid every shot. But hell, you could do that as a human too. But in a hallway where the Hunter has to get up close to you, and you are actively running backwards shooting at it? Yeah, its not as easy in a situation like that.

If Hunters were slower, players would just kite them and have very little trouble killing them. Hunters need to be fast to get into melee range.

Skill has nothing to do with 1) acquiring a laser or 2) managing to hit a hunter who is just rolling his face over the arrow buttons on a keyboard

You can't just run and spray lasers whenever the hunter closes on you, because the damn hunter can run past you, cut you off, and literally run circles around you while you run until it melee's you.

Give me a hunter in a hall with a laser wielder and I'll win 10/10 fights. And again, 4 crewmembers have access to lasers. If an alien hunter shows up then the odds are still VASTLY AGAINST you ever getting your hands on a laser weapon.

The rest of the crew has absolutely no defense except to shit their pants and wait to die.

Slow them down, keep the leap, boom. You can't just blindly kite them but you aren't a fucking dead man walking either.

[Raven776]

Plasma cutter wielding, riot suit wearing hulks to the rescue?

[Incomptinence]

Ahaha oh lord this is RIDICULOUS. Leap is almost hitscan teleporting you onto people and stunning them, it is so damn close and so fast. Even if you stuff it up and lightly stun yourself the frontline combat crew already died to the the leapskrieg so you just dejump mode and run away. Or leap onto humans behind you for a super sonic escape.

Even without leap you are still the most robust thing this side of end tier mech research or adminspawn.

[oranges]

They are actually very fast, this needs to be looked at and I've filed an issue here
https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/issues/5594

[ThatSlyFox]

I would still go with keeping their speed as is. Changing leap in some way so you can't just spam it would be the right call. At least then choosing sentinel or drone would make sense.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

If aliens still don't have to keep infected people alive for them to hatch somebody should make them, by the way.

[Oldman Robustin]

It sounds like leap needs a hefty chem cost (what else are hunters going to use chems for in combat?) and speed still needs to be brought down.

Leap shouldn't be removed entirely though, that would be like OLD hunters which were pretty underpowered.

From Github:

Perakp commented 3 hours ago

Assuming the default configs of
RUN_DELAY = 1, HUMAN_DELAY = ALIEN_DELAY = 0 and TICKLAG = 0.9,
the move_delay of a running human is
move_delay = 1 - 1.3 + (1/0.9)*1.3 = 1.14
and of a running alien hunter
move_delay = -1 +1 - 1.3 + (1/0.9)*1.3 = 0.14

Thus, without modifiers from clothing, reagents, hunger, health or temperature, the alien hunter has 8 times smaller movement delay than a human, and possibly the smallest move delay of any mob in the game.

That's to Mr. Crimson's argument of "lol just run and shoot your laser at him bro, soo ez to kill hunters bro"

[Alex Crimson]

and once again to mr Robustin, they need movement speed so they can actually catch people who run. 4 people having access to lasers is ignoring the fact that the HoS/Warden should be handing out lasers to Sec, and the HoP/Captain should be ordering them from cargo. This isnt even including the lasers R&D can create(because they need mining materials). Yeah normal crew cannot kill Hunters, but then normal crew cannot kill Syndies either. An Assistant should not have the ability to go head-to-head with one of the strongest antag types in the game.

[MisterPerson]

Is a group of 2-3 people with laser guns capable of defeating or at least holding off a hunter? Then things are fine, don't go off alone as a human, don't fight a crowd of people as a xeno.

Not to say hunters couldn't stand to move a bit slower, mind you.

[Oldman Robustin]

Is a group of 2-3 people with laser guns capable of defeating or at least holding off a hunter? Then things are fine, don't go off alone as a human, don't fight a crowd of people as a xeno.

Not to say hunters couldn't stand to move a bit slower, mind you.

Ah right on time, the delusional optimist.

If people just traveled in heavily armed groups every gametype, nothing would ever be a problem. Thing is, THAT NEVER HAPPENS.

Try convincing sec to hand out lasers, or protect anyone who isn't also in sec, seriously... have fun.

This is the same dialogue I had with people when I attacked Ninja for being stupidly out of whack. "B-B-BUT IF YOU JUST BRING A SCIENTIST WITH A VOICE-ACTIVATED BOMB STRAPPED TO HIS BACK THEN YOU CAN KILL A NINJA NO PROBLEM BRO".

[paprika]

I've seriously had no problem killing aliens, especially hunters. Try a jetpack in space and kiting them, none of the aliens can touch you when you have a jetpack. The only thing you have to watch out for at most is sentinel projectiles.

[Miauw]

If there's xenos, sec SHOULD be handing out lasers.
Xenos are much like blob in that usually most of the crew is fighting them. And ninja being stupid is a fact, but luckily that will hopefully improve soonish.

[Steelpoint]

One versus one against a Alien 95% of all Humans should lose that engagement.

The only exceptions I can think of are the Death Squad, well trained and equipped military forces, or a very lucky human with the right guns. Aliens should be balanced with the idea that a single Alien is going to be very hard to kill alone, and is a deadly threat.

I do think that there should be a system where a impregnated human must be kept alive for the larva to hatch (as well as said human losing suicide rights).

However I think from a balance perspective we should be wary of balancing Aliens. If we make them too easy to kill then what's the point? They are meant to be round enders and being able to overcome a Alien hive should be a very hard/rare thing to do.

[Perakp]

Thus, without modifiers from clothing, reagents, hunger, health or temperature, the alien hunter has 8 times smaller movement delay than a human, and possibly the smallest move delay of any mob in the game.

That's to Mr. Crimson's argument of "lol just run and shoot your laser at him bro, soo ez to kill hunters bro"

It has to be said that the movement delay doesn't translate straight into velocity, hunters aren't 8 times faster than humans. But those are the numbers that would be changed if something was to be changed.

[Oldman Robustin]

I've seriously had no problem killing aliens, especially hunters. Try a jetpack in space and kiting them, none of the aliens can touch you when you have a jetpack. The only thing you have to watch out for at most is sentinel projectiles.

Gee I wonder which poster here hasn't played since the space movement nerf.

If there's xenos, sec SHOULD be handing out lasers.
Xenos are much like blob in that usually most of the crew is fighting them. And ninja being stupid is a fact, but luckily that will hopefully improve soonish.

Unless, you know, it's one of the 90% of gametypes where the crew is laced with bad guys... bad guys who will be the first to lineup for a chance at sec handing them weaponry. Sec is always paranoid of this fact and I know, despite my best and most sincere efforts, that sec will not hand out lasers unless it's fucking blob... in which case they lower their metashields and actually do their job semi-effectively for once.

Sec hands out lasers, but it's almost always to other sec. Ironically the sec players seem to be among the least proficient at battling aliens. HINT: SEC MASKS DO NOT BLOCK FACEHUGGERS KIDS.

I still haven't heard a good reason for adding a significant chem cost to leap, making speed on par with crew, and letting LEAP be your cherished gap-closer and crew-dunker.

Also give aliens their pockets back god damn. I like aliens, I want them to be strong, balance this hunter nerf by giving aliens their damn pocket slots back so they can carry facehuggers. Facehuggers are a fantastic mechanic and since pockets were removed I've seen far too many xenos (including myself) resort to murdering people because I can't drag 2 people back to the nest at the same time and my lack of pocket slot means I can only realistically haul around 1 hugger.

[Cipher3]

Don't say we need groups to fight xenos, a single hunter defeated three well-armed people in an open hallway and they never stood a chance. Could stunlock one-two of them with trashy pouncing.

[RG4]

I've seriously had no problem killing aliens, especially hunters. Try a jetpack in space and kiting them, none of the aliens can touch you when you have a jetpack. The only thing you have to watch out for at most is sentinel projectiles.

Not anymore.

[Cipher3]

It would take a small group of trained, organized, and well-armed people to down a hunter. As in, 3 at least if they're good at working with each other and can predict moves and are robust. Unless the hunter is just really incompetent.

[Incomptinence]

Anyone who sees a aliens actually be beaten by three people with lasers is free to report it as a bug.

[ThatSlyFox]

I have beaten 3 armed people as a hunter in main halls before. Leap is OP as hell.

[Cipher3]

I have beaten 3 armed people as a hunter in main halls before. Leap is OP as hell.

Can confirm - this occurs.

[paprika]

Aliens reck people in the movies.

However, aliens also walk on their own two feet most of the time (if we're talking alien here, and not aliens where they get cut down like weak little animals that walk on all fours) and they aren't really that much faster than humans, humans are more nimble and typically scurry away if they know when to fuck off, IE ripley.

Since alien hunters can leap now, I don't see a problem with nerfing their speed. Their speed was basically a stand-in for them not being able to actually jump tackle people like they're meant to, so there's no reason for them to be as sanic as they are.

[MisterPerson]

This thread just further reinforces my belief we need to toss aliens out and replace them with something else.