Feedback forums hostility

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Aranclanos
 
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Feedback forums hostility

Postby Aranclanos » Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:49 pm #46492

This place is hostile! Well, not right now that we have a code freeze, but it's ending soon and I'm fearing that the bickering between parties will start soon. Is it the players to blame when it comes to feedback angry threads and responses or we are just lacking organization? Take a look at the FNR threads, while they are really restricted on who can post, they do have a ruleset for organization, that reduced a lot the forum fights that came out from it.
Should we have a ruleset and guides on how to provide feedback? And if that, how exactly? It's not rare that one of these threads get half of their posts deleted, it's kinda silly.

I'm not a forum admin and I don't moderate this place, so my perspective might be lacking some information, so I'd like to hear what others think.
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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Incomptinence » Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:04 pm #46498

This might fit better in policy discussion.

As for the FNR comparison. Who do you think are the involved parties on a forum where most giving feedback play the game you code?

We have a fair few forums administrators so there will be more deletions than there were in the past anyway, most of them have reasonable standards of what is a reasonable post and the outliers like Cheridan will be weeded out by their own conduct.

You think this place is hostile still? There are actual coders with forums administration rights responsible for some of the deleted posts, I would say it is a pretty safe place for you.

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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby cedarbridge » Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:15 pm #46500

Aranclanos wrote:This place is hostile! Well, not right now that we have a code freeze, but it's ending soon and I'm fearing that the bickering between parties will start soon. Is it the players to blame when it comes to feedback angry threads and responses or we are just lacking organization? Take a look at the FNR threads, while they are really restricted on who can post, they do have a ruleset for organization, that reduced a lot the forum fights that came out from it.
Should we have a ruleset and guides on how to provide feedback? And if that, how exactly? It's not rare that one of these threads get half of their posts deleted, it's kinda silly.

I'm not a forum admin and I don't moderate this place, so my perspective might be lacking some information, so I'd like to hear what others think.


It wasn't the addition of the templates to FNR that stopped "hostile" posting there.

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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Aranclanos » Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:07 pm #46507

@incomptinence
My post it's not to protect several individuals from the mean posters that want to do angry stuff. It's a call for organization to have a better place for players to input their feedback on the recent changes of the game, or, dangerously getting closing to an idea thread, to discuss old features or entire chunks that make a whole, like a station job.
You're talking about some differences between the administration of this same forum, disagreeing and agreeing with different decisions and actions. Isn't that also a call for organization? So all forum admins and the community can post safely without ending up in fights about how to make the game more enjoyable.
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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Malkevin » Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:29 am #46520

Hostile FNR posts never disappeared, they just got pushed further and further away until they ended up on some independently ran web board
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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby oranges » Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:04 am #46526


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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Intigracy » Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:18 am #46527

The BYOND forums are utter garbage though, and reading them makes me laugh.

Aran did nothing wrong in that thread.

>it worked before naruto boy
>ok just make sure he doesnt confuse dbz and naruto again or we'll have a problem

my sides

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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Aranclanos » Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:21 am #46530

If you want logs of me being mean I have a lot of dota 2 games where I'm really mean because I get angry at competitive videogames, but I don't think that's the point. What I'm trying to find with this thread is the kind of forum organization that you guys would like to see to decrease the amount of hostility.
But also please remember that I'm no forum admin and I might not know enough to make or demand any kind of decision, I'm trying to make a discussion between us to solve what I think that is a problem on these particular forums.
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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Spacezenegger » Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:26 am #46532

You know, coders can be part of the negative feedback problem as well, especially with some of their "NO MY IDEA IS BEST FUCK YOU" mentality. Its not just the player's fault.

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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Intigracy » Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:28 am #46534

I like HG's solution of taking derailed/angry pissiness threads (so long as it's by more than two people being fuckheads to each other) and locking them and making them start over.

Whoever first starts with the angry insulting should get the forumban.

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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Aranclanos » Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:47 am #46540

I'm not blaming anyone in particular, I'm sure some people are a bit snarkier than others, hell, I can be a huge ass, but I think this can be solved with a different kind of organization on how the forum works, that's the discussion that I'm trying to formulate on this thread (which I'm failing horribly so far)
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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby MrStonedOne » Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:57 am #46543

I have been watching this forum and have been placing people who consistently escalate the hostility levels of threads on mod approval required for this entire section, hence (in part) the more recent lull in hostility.
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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby lumipharon » Fri Nov 28, 2014 4:52 am #46577

Yeah. Most hostility come from escalation. Severe escalation. A lot of people (some more so then others) having rather strong views about things, and pretty deliberately rub people up the wrong way when they disagree with them. They the other person ups the ante, and then suddenly it's a shitflinging contest.

Honestly if people were expected to actually back up their posts with evidence more, I (hope) a lot of shit wouldn't happen. As currenly person X will believe something, stating so without evidence (which often exists, but they don't bother showing it) but when person Y says they believe otherwise, X says Y is a faggot and wrong, and Y calls them a fag yadda yadda.

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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby MisterPerson » Fri Nov 28, 2014 5:05 am #46582

It doesn't help when those people are talking about opinions.
I code for the code project and moderate the code sections of the forums.

Feedback is dumb and it doesn't matter

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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Perakp » Fri Nov 28, 2014 10:09 am #46629

We should have an automated feedback collection system between rounds.

Was this round enjoyable, yes, no, maybe
Did you find bugs yes no maybe
Was the way you were horribly murdered fair, unfair, maybe

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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby cedarbridge » Fri Nov 28, 2014 10:14 am #46632

Perakp wrote:We should have an automated feedback collection system between rounds.

Was this round enjoyable, yes, no, maybe
Did you find bugs yes no maybe
Was the way you were horribly murdered fair, unfair, maybe


And when you're done you'll have a lot of data you can't correlate to anything.

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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Fri Nov 28, 2014 10:27 am #46635

So what should perfect feedback thread look like?

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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby MisterPerson » Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:10 am #46639

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:So what should perfect feedback thread look like?


"X is bad. Let me explain why."
vs
"The thing coder X did is bad. FUCK CODER X"

or, sometimes

"I disagree that change x is bad. Let me explain why."
vs
"Haha you're just a shitty player who knows nothing about this game like I, the master race coder. git gud faglord"

I know this is hyperbole but it gets the point across.
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Feedback is dumb and it doesn't matter

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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Malkevin » Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:17 am #46642

Hyperbole? Thats literally a paraphrase of a Paprika post.
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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby fleure » Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:54 am #46645

MrP hits the nail on the head really.
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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:05 pm #46650

Well, whenever someone's disagreeing with whatever, there's bound to be a conflict. It's just natural. I don't consider it much of a problem.

Worse is the fact that many people don't give their reasoning, so their feedback is essentially useless, but then that's their own fault for not providing feedback that is useful.

I for one would like to see more response to the feedback given.

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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby adrix89 » Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:32 pm #46657

That's because there is no conclusions.

As long as there is no system to conclude what change is bad, what is good and what parts of it work and should be kept and what should be done code wise(in the pull requests) it will all boil down to a he said she said mentality.
All controversial changes will be a great shitstorm.

If we had a system to conclude things people would be more constructive to make their points across.
I am not sure what systems would work, whether its forum polls, in-game statistics/polls or neutral judges(not biased towards either coders or users).

I haven't been around when NTStation and the drama was in place, but was the voting for features,changes and ideas bad?
If we had that for feedback and pull request criticism were only for code quality and maintainability I think everyone would have a fair system.

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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby ThatSlyFox » Fri Nov 28, 2014 2:00 pm #46661

I think organization would be nice for both sides. Coders can see exactly what people dislike about a certain feature, players can have a nice template to use, moderators lose a headache.

But if people's opinions are going to get restricted in any way then no.

Template:
Problem with x:
Possible alternative:
Revert y/n:

Bad at stuff like this but you get the idea. Make it nice and pretty.

Edit: A voting system would be nice for major changes like slow space. I would hate to be a coder and work on something just for it to be reverted because no one liked it.

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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby adrix89 » Fri Nov 28, 2014 2:09 pm #46666

ThatSlyFox wrote:Edit: A voting system would be nice for major changes like slow space. I would hate to be a coder and work on something just for it to be reverted because no one liked it.


For major changes I recommend trial periods with in-game statistics/polls.

Actually what happened with the in-game stats and polls? We used to have them?

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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby cedarbridge » Sat Nov 29, 2014 12:30 am #46765

The question that nobody is asking here is "why is there hostility in the first place?"

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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Malkevin » Sat Nov 29, 2014 1:13 am #46774

cedarbridge wrote:The question that nobody is asking here is "why is there hostility in the first place?"

I honestly don't have a clue....


paprika !FQ5As2D/.o 11/29/14 (Sat) 01:08:53 ID: c0bca No.8826
>>8823
>coding
>responsibility to anyone

epic, i bet you think i 'work' for you too
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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby MisterPerson » Sat Nov 29, 2014 1:39 am #46778

Hostility is a 2-way street, Malk.
I code for the code project and moderate the code sections of the forums.

Feedback is dumb and it doesn't matter

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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Malkevin » Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:00 am #46782

Yeah, and Paprika's is a national speed limit two lane carriage against a quiet backstreet.

He's managed to be more hated than Aran just by the way he acts, that itself is a massive achievement.
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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby MisterPerson » Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:07 am #46783

Malkevin wrote:Yeah, and Paprika's is a national speed limit two lane carriage against a quiet backstreet.

He's managed to be more hated than Aran just by the way he acts, that itself is a massive achievement.


There's hostility that doesn't involve pap in any way.
I code for the code project and moderate the code sections of the forums.

Feedback is dumb and it doesn't matter

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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Malkevin » Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:11 am #46784

Point to it and I'll explain in simple terms why the hostility happened.
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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby MisterPerson » Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:44 am #46785

Because some people are assholes. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out. Or sometimes people get tired or frustrated at little things and do shit they regret and say mean shit for no reason. It happens.
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Feedback is dumb and it doesn't matter

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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Steelpoint » Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:22 am #46798

If I was on my computer I would go on a rant about why the behaviour of people like paprika is cancerous and needs to be cut out, yet the behaviour if people like Remi should be praised.

All it will say is if the first response a coder has to a feedback thread is a meme image which is the equilivant of "u mad bro?", then of course people are going to be very hostile.
Image

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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby ThatSlyFox » Sat Nov 29, 2014 5:50 am #46815

Steelpoint wrote:If I was on my computer I would go on a rant about why the behaviour of people like paprika is cancerous and needs to be cut out, yet the behaviour if people like Remi should be praised.

All it will say is if the first response a coder has to a feedback thread is a meme image which is the equilivant of "u mad bro?", then of course people are going to be very hostile.


And that hostility is going to stick in that thread until it closes. Most people consider Pap's attitude the general attitude of all coders, they aren't far off, but still. If pap hasn't been talked to yet about their attitude they should be.

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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Saegrimr » Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:07 am #46859

When it's obvious rational discussion isn't going to change anything due to stubbornness on either side, of course it'll just gonna turn to shitflinging. Nothing is gained either way.
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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Aranclanos » Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:05 am #46866

@Malkevin
This thread isn't to talk about individuals or specific events, I already said this. What I'm trying to bring on topic is the discussion of a different type of organization that these forums could use to avoid the fights, take your time, read the thread, think and analize what I'm asking and formulate your own opinion. I'm not blaming anyone really, I think this can be solved by changing the system.
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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Cik » Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:15 am #46867

MisterPerson wrote:Hostility is a 2-way street, Malk.


not always and often the street is much wider at one end.

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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Steelpoint » Sat Nov 29, 2014 10:11 am #46880

I think the problem from any hostility stems from the person the feedback is being directed to (the coder) ignoring or rejecting any feedback being given. When this occurs the people in the thread usually get annoyed or angry that their feedback is being rejected (onto of the stigma of the feedback forums being ignored).

Using two different threads as examples of good vs wrong.

Ex 1
A month ago I made a thread on the removal of a certain in game item, a lot of people did not like its sudden removal and some discussion was being made on the issue. The first reply from the person who removed it (paprika) was this...

paprika wrote:Image


The thread went down hill from there, no real concessions were made and feedback was outright ignored until the thread was locked.

Ex 2
A week ago a thread was made on the poly acid changes, a lot of people disliked how easy and quickly people died to poly acid. The first reply from the person who made the acid changes (Remi Richards) was a response to a inquiry...

Remi Richards wrote:Nah, looking at the code that isn't a thing, unless it's handled some where stupid
(it's not on /acid code and not on the spray/waterflower code)


In stark comparison to paprika's first response, it clearly shows that remi was listening to people and answering questions and feedback. At that point remi goes on to continue to answer feedback and make changes to how acid works based of these suggestions, and most people are happy with this so far.

That is the core of my argument, threads where people are fair, attentive but above all act like adults and listen to constructive criticism do well. Threads where either party (in this case the coder) is being a child and ignores criticism (to put it lightly) tend to do very poorly and get nowhere.

If your going to make a sudden change to the game, you should be prepared to defend your decision and answer feedback on the forums like a adult in a clam and rational manner. That should be the minimum requirement of this subforum.
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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby adrix89 » Sat Nov 29, 2014 10:42 am #46887

@Aranclanos
What are your thoughts on the voting system similar to NTStation?
Initially there would be a forum poll that will give a idea of the reaction from the players, its not a final decision and the coder could ignore it and put it on the server.
Once on the server there will be weekly/monthly poll for all the changes and features, this would be definitive, if the community says revert you revert.
Bigger features may have longer trials but it will eventually end.

Pull request comments will focus on code quality and maintainability and not anything else,it will not be denied based on the gameplay changes.

This I see would be a fair system while still being flexible for coders.
No more drama and antagonism as all parties will be able to affect the outcome.

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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby cedarbridge » Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:16 am #46890

adrix89 wrote:@Aranclanos
What are your thoughts on the voting system similar to NTStation?
Initially there would be a forum poll that will give a idea of the reaction from the players, its not a final decision and the coder could ignore it and put it on the server.
Once on the server there will be weekly/monthly poll for all the changes and features, this would be definitive, if the community says revert you revert.
Bigger features may have longer trials but it will eventually end.

Pull request comments will focus on code quality and maintainability and not anything else,it will not be denied based on the gameplay changes.

This I see would be a fair system while still being flexible for coders.
No more drama and antagonism as all parties will be able to affect the outcome.

I don't foresee this ever happening because it would mean the coderbus sacrificing the "we just write the code and don't answer to the server" position they hold up as a shield currently. It would also mean the players on the server actually have direct control over their playing experience which currently does not exist in any form beyond "you can code anything you want" or "make your own fork lol"

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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Ergovisavi » Sat Nov 29, 2014 1:05 pm #46898

Remember when NTstation did voting

Where is NTstation now again?

Hmmm.

Coders should respond to feedback and do so without dick waving, but MUH VOTING isn't viable.

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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby lumipharon » Sat Nov 29, 2014 1:18 pm #46902

Voting had nothing to do with NT dying, not sure why you're bringing that up at all.

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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby phil235 » Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:14 pm #46910

adrix89 wrote:@Aranclanos
What are your thoughts on the voting system similar to NTStation?
Initially there would be a forum poll that will give a idea of the reaction from the players, its not a final decision and the coder could ignore it and put it on the server.
Once on the server there will be weekly/monthly poll for all the changes and features, this would be definitive, if the community says revert you revert.
Bigger features may have longer trials but it will eventually end.

I'd be all for this but I'm concerned about the amount of time and effort it would take to manage ingame polls for every single feature added. Also, having to revert something months after it was added can be a pain. And there's the concern of people skewing the polls by mutikeying.

We could instead have admins create custom votes ingame (like restart votes but about whatever recently added feature the admin chooses) during lobby time at peek hours a couple days in a row to get a decent idea of the players opinions, and then post the results in the appropriate feedback thread.
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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby fleure » Sat Nov 29, 2014 3:54 pm #46917

I think polls could work if certain changes or features had demo time periods on the server. Though I imagine most players would be against this since it interferes with their experience on the "live" servers... the obvious solution to which would be running a third test server as I think we tried a while back. I don't think a lot of players would use it meaning feedback wouldn't accurate, so people will still complain.

Equally, even with polls without a demo, the game would still be controlled by coders, simply because nobody has any obligation to create or change something that polls suggest under our FOSS volunteering way of doing things. You could argue a "free market" model where players will go where they feel their experience is good or under their control, but despite all the bitching and moaning in the past, /tg/ is as popular as everm so I think there are other factors here.
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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Intigracy » Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:07 pm #46934

The problem with voting is apparent when you look at things like the newer UI change.

The old UI was awful compared to this one. When it was added, everyone was bitching at coderbus for changing it and saying it was terrible for a few weeks, and then it died down.

If there had been a poll at that time, it would have been starkly negative, even for something as great of an improvement as it was.

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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Raven776 » Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:11 pm #46935

It pretty much boils down to 'I don't like change.'

Pretty much every 'awful terrible no good very bad change' could be summed up with it being different from what was the norm before. Space being slow? Makes space something to be afraid of without a suit instead of 'lolmoonwalk' but it was received very poorly because change.

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Re: Feedback forums hostility

Postby Aranclanos » Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:15 pm #46936

I don't really like polls, while they sound democratic and fair, they really aren't. Mostly they consist on politics, with the huge need of people who made the commit to quickly start doing first impressions about the change in ooc (because most people will vote only hearing one side and then forget about it) so people can vote on his favour, but in general people reject change by default until they can get used of it, and the asks to revert will come before that.
For the game's future, the most popular decision isn't always the best too. A great example is the movement speed or the UI change like inti says
--
Anyways, I don't really want to ramble a lot about polls, I wanted to focus mainly on the kind of content of these forums, with the OP posts and the answers following it. I like the idea of the template, specially for the titles of the thread, who sometimes they just start like an attack, at least that's the feeling from some of them.
Another question, should there be a difference between the feedback of commits that just got merged or didn't and the ones that can be actually played on the servers?

im sorry if the posts are being too big btw, but I really appreciate if you take your time to read them
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