Two Roundstart Roboticists.

Zsword · Post by **Zsword** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:51 am #48122

I'm not sure how long this has been a thing, but I can say after many rounds, that I ABSOLUTELY hate this change. I will ALL CAPS a random word to put emphasize on my HATE.

In all honesty though, two robotocists at the start is just unpleasant for both of them. There's only 1 tool belt, only one goggles, and only one surgery table. There's also next to no space, everything about robotics has been balanced for only one Roboticist and that's all there really is room and supplies for, adding another RIGHT at round start just leads to these unpleasant 'alpha' conflicts where one roboticist gets to actually be roboticist, while the other gets to be shunned as an outlaw, forced to roam the halls as an over-glorified assistant. At the very least, with a late joining 'Roboticist' they atleast are already consigned to being the 'lesser' Robo and kinda get the dumb jobs with the inferior equipment, but that's more meant to be a penalty for joining 'late'.

I can see 2 simple solutions, 1: The obvious, go back to one roundstart Robo. 2: The more 'evolutionary', make Robotics bigger/give it more of the 'signature' stuff so that one Robo doesn't have to cannibalize the others round.

There might be others, but this is my 'upfront' response and reaction after about a day's worth of playing.

Akkryls · Post by **Akkryls** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:01 am #48123

Pretty sure it's been this way for a long time.
Still, you can both do your jobs at the same time unlike Science who only have the one console/analyzer to share between their entire department.

fleure · Post by **fleure** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:18 am #48124

It has been this way for a while.

On Box i Kind of like it if you're organised - One of you builds a couple of borgs and the usual acid fetching, syringe gun/tasers for R&D, and the other can handle the surgery for the inevitable queue of people who want to be borged.

Once the initial rush is over though, yeah, it can seem a bit redundant, but that's usually down to no materials being available so you can't build any stompies.

Aranclanos · Post by **Aranclanos** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:28 pm #48135

It's a legit complaint, we can easily give them two toolbelts and another welding mask or goggles with no problems. They already have two fabricators so I hope them to not have any problems if they don't want to work together, like in chemistry. Though in robotics working together with your partner is easier.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:31 pm #48136

Yeah it should not be too hard to add in a second pair of masks/belts and whatnot. I think the single surgery table is fine.

It is annoying when your the slower Roboticist who does not secure the limited gear.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:15 pm #48157

Can we expand robotics into the Mech Bay a bit?

Thats a fucking lot of wasted space over there for two mech rechargers.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:19 pm #48158

We could but what do we want to put in there? Just more free space or more tools?

I can take a look at expanding if we want.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:21 pm #48160

I would say a second operating table, but two sets of surgery tools might be too much for reasons.
Maybe separate them by a length of table and have the surgery tools on that table. Sanitation? Cross-contamination? No big deal.

Could also separate the mech fabs a bit more so they'd be easier to keep track of material, the only problem that would cause is for single roboticists who want to utilize both to print shit faster.

fleure · Post by **fleure** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:25 pm #48163

There's no need for a second operating table, just more open space to work/leave stuff, and extra tools, would be fine I think. I agree mech bay is oversized for its needs really, any mechs I want to repair/work on I just take into the main lab anyway.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:30 pm #48164

Yeah maybe not, those tables should be unwrench/moveable though. So if one of them really wants his own dedicated aug table he can go steal the one from ghetto surgery above arrivals.

Main room really is cramped though.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:33 pm #48165

Well here's a mock up of a alternative mech recharge bay.

It would definitely give us more space to work with in Robotics proper. Thoughts?

Spoiler:

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:38 pm #48166

Add windows between that and robotics and it looks pretty good then.

Not sure why walls and rwalls are all mixed up.

You forgot borg chargers as well!

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:40 pm #48167

How's this?

Spoiler:

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:58 pm #48168

Steelpoint wrote:How's this?

Spoiler:

Looks kind of weird having the overhead doors lead to essentially a dead end, have to get out and go around to get back into your office though it does feel more like a storage container for it and less a parking space.

Look at all that extra space for ACTIVITIES!

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:00 pm #48169

I'll have to test in game but if its possible I could move the two computers down a single tile so you can still move out after parking your mech.

whodaloo · Post by **whodaloo** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:16 pm #48170

Steelpoint wrote:I'll have to test in game but if its possible I could move the two computers down a single tile so you can still move out after parking your mech.

That would make a lot more sense, space-wise, and also create some space for a shutters button on the walls.

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:23 pm #48173

Maybe add back in the water tank and welder fuel tank for the mechbay for borg refueling? Or at least the welder fuel tank. Because a roboticist is more likely to need to refill that than he is a fire hydrant.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:43 pm #48175

Rearranged the Mech Bay slightly and second iteration of the surgery area.

Spoiler:

Pros
- Out of the way
- More space for Robotics
- Good for private sessions

Cons
- Out of the way
- More suspicious
- Need's more Rwalls.

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:52 pm #48180

That is a thing of beauty to behold. I can't wait to be a dirty tator abducting people to my secret robo-lair for brain extraction and evil-borgification.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:53 pm #48183

This was my fault, I added a second robo spawn and upped the count without thinking about the belt and goggles, but i think there should be a welding helmet in there too?

fleure · Post by **fleure** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:01 pm #48187

I really like this, it's actually bigger than I thought it might be.

I know it's a draft but I'd only add that the south wall of the mech bay should be a rwall, as should the walls between the surgery bit and the maint tunnel, for security consistency's sake.
Maybe some more window grilles looking into the mech bay from the lab.

Otherwise, yeah, I'm loving this, much more room to make stompies, borgs, and fix up shit.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:04 pm #48188

Yeah I'm definitely going to add in rwalls, having only a single normal wall separating maintenance from sweet surgical supplies is pretty bad.

whodaloo · Post by **whodaloo** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:05 pm #48191

I think the walls under the chargers and the plasma tank should be grille/windows, in my opinion.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:16 pm #48194

whodaloo wrote:I think the walls under the chargers and the plasma tank should be grille/windows, in my opinion.

While it would look nice, it would make the surgery room very public and I don't think that would be the best thing to do.

Firstly why would someone who is going to the mech bay want a front row seat of someone getting their brain removed, and from a non-realistic perspective it means antag's can't use it for more clandestine activities.

whodaloo · Post by **whodaloo** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:21 pm #48208

Steelpoint wrote:
whodaloo wrote:I think the walls under the chargers and the plasma tank should be grille/windows, in my opinion.
While it would look nice, it would make the surgery room very public and I don't think that would be the best thing to do.

Firstly why would someone who is going to the mech bay want a front row seat of someone getting their brain removed, and from a non-realistic perspective it means antag's can't use it for more clandestine activities.

I suppose I wasn't really thinking about potential balance implications, I just think with the current set up it's like some kinda cave rather than an operating room.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 9:31 pm #48236

paprika wrote:This was my fault, I added a second robo spawn and upped the count without thinking about the belt and goggles, but i think there should be a welding helmet in there too?

There's one set of goggles and one welding mask. There's only ever been one belt. There's also always been two roboticist slots so I'm not really sure where the "robotics was made for one" thing came from. The only difference between before and now is that the second one can spawn in at roundstart without having trudging all the way from the shuttle.

whodaloo · Post by **whodaloo** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:31 pm #48251

cedarbridge wrote:
paprika wrote:This was my fault, I added a second robo spawn and upped the count without thinking about the belt and goggles, but i think there should be a welding helmet in there too?
There's one set of goggles and one welding mask. There's only ever been one belt. There's also always been two roboticist slots so I'm not really sure where the "robotics was made for one" thing came from. The only difference between before and now is that the second one can spawn in at roundstart without having trudging all the way from the shuttle.

There were always two roboticists slots, but since https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/5202 means two can spawn at round start wouldn't it make sense to re-fit robotics so it can support all the people who spawn there?

Post by **oranges** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:01 pm #48259

If you're overly concerned about it being too powerful a space for an antag, you could potentially put a window from RD corridor into the surgery area as well.

You still have to go out of the way to look into it, but it's not like windows from recharging area.

leibniz · Post by **leibniz** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:05 am #48273

oranges wrote:If you're overly concerned about it being too powerful a space for an antag, you could potentially put a window from RD corridor into the surgery area as well.

You still have to go out of the way to look into it, but it's not like windows from recharging area.

I dont think its an issue, the RD could walk in any moment. Antags should be able to find privacy in any job.

Zsword · Post by **Zsword** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:25 am #48275

I'm gonna say, as being the guy bringing up the initial complaint/notion, I'll say the new space looks great, appropriately fitted out with gear, it gives a lot more room to have someone working on a Mech, while the other can work on a cyborg or be spreading out drone shells for the spirits about. I will say that making one mech practically takes up half of the old robo layout, when you factor in the very cramped nature of it, what with Robotics being unnaffected by a loss of gravity right now. This new layout makes it look like there might be enough space to breath and float about in a little.

Also, a welding mask does spawn, so that both Robo's can weld, but let's face it, no one wants a welding mask when you can have goggles, besides with the goggles you can put on the black cap, take off the white labcoat and look so eeeeevil. :3

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:26 am #48302

Zsword wrote:take off the white labcoat and look so eeeeevil. :3

Robo jumpsuit looks like ass.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:13 am #48319

Here's my first iteration of Robotics proper. It took my several tries to get to this layout and I'm still not 100% certain its perfect.

Spoiler:

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:51 am #48331

Steelpoint wrote:Here's my first iteration of Robotics proper. It took my several tries to get to this layout and I'm still not 100% certain its perfect.

Spoiler:

There's something that feels a bit off about that huge whitespace in the middle. I'd probably extend the "construction" color tiles a bit further to the left to break up the big white nothing.

Zsword · Post by **Zsword** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:58 am #48333

1: Where are our empty medkits! D: (A minor extension of the right most table would probably fix that, though you then run over 'out' of the 'safe' zone...)

and that's about the only major complaint I have. Having the fabs being vertical is a little wierd but I guess it's a sort of necessary evil, though it does make the rest of robo look empt with the default white tiling. though I'm guessing further stylization is 'planned but not implimented'

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:01 am #48334

I just have to figure out where to put the medkits. I'll keep jabbing at the design.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:20 am #48336

Second iteration

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:29 am #48338

Where are the surgical drapes? Also, please keep the surgery computer adjacent to the table itself. It should be possible to operate on a patient without needing to move, which, if you move the surgery computer to be south of the surgery table itself, could be done by standing between the surgery table and the table with the hemostat and retractor on it. You could probably place the missing drapes on a table where the surgery computer is right now. Finally, I would recommend a standard windoor to complete the look of the two panes there. I believe that would also make it have more of a feel of being its own room.

Oh, and once you finalize the physical design, please do remember to give Robotics border floor tile designs instead of plain white ones, and a button for the mech bay shuttlers. Having an additional button for them actually inside the lab would be nice, but are certainly no requirement.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:45 am #48340

I think the computer is fine where it is, akin to how our surgery is layed out as well as due to space constrictions. A windoor is a good idea and I placed drapes/latex gloves on the surgical table.

Here's a updated image

Spoiler:

Zsword · Post by **Zsword** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:54 am #48341

That looks amazing, now all it needs is wiring, an APC (I'm thinking, south of the Mechbay entrance, below the Glass/Grill, north of the wardrobe?) it's piping of course... but everything else looks to be in order. (I'd personally move the gloves to be on top of the body bags, but that's a personal nuance I do at the start of every round anyway.'

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:19 am #48342

o god dat recharger room is super super duper cramped but then again who uses the recharger room anyway?

mrpain · Post by **mrpain** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:56 am #48351

The wall that separates robotics from the mech bay/charging room just seems almost...redundant when it's just an extra robotics access/shutter door anyways....at least i think that's how it works.

Steelpoint wrote:I think the computer is fine where it is, akin to how our surgery is layed out as well as due to space constrictions. A windoor is a good idea and I placed drapes/latex gloves on the surgical table.

Here's a updated image

Spoiler:

Oooh...but that's also nice.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:10 am #48356

So the two fabricators and the adjacent table's both have a equal amount of resources, so three metal sheets, one glass sheet and a toolbelt/multitool each. Aside from the different layout, the amount of supplies in robotics is almost the same, aside from the addition of one additional glass sheet, toolbelt and wielding mask.

How the mech bay shutters work is that you can close and open each individual shutter door by the adjacent button. It will only open the attached shutter but the main lab's button will (hopefully) close and open both shutters.

Unless/until there is further feedback, this image should be about the final iteration of my Robotics design. Barring some lights, security cameras and minor misc items.

Spoiler:

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:30 am #48364

this is bretty gud steelpoint

don't forget the pipes

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:59 am #48376

Slight change of plan in the design, sadly the mech recharge computers can't detect the recharge port from the positions they are in, they have to be directly in front or behind the recharge port in order to detect it, not on its side.

Thus I've made a minor design change.

In game image of Robotics.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:17 pm #48384

That could probably be changed.

Zsword · Post by **Zsword** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:22 pm #48385

Wait, so they don't work if they're adjacent, and to a side, but they DO work if they're one tile away and directly on the path? *LOGIC*

In all seriousness though, it looks great, as long as all the piping, wiring, lighting, etc. lines up it should very much suit what I see us needing.

The glass sheet is also a semi needed bonus, I've always felt Robo never had enoguh glass, between the circuit imprinter, and say a standard 'Odysseus and RPLY' every round, you'd be out of mats for batteries/R&D supplies/MMIs/What have you.

I take it the Red X's are spawn points? Meaning one Robo spawns at the R&D Console and the other at the Counter? Cause currently, both Robo's spawn at the console, on top of each other.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:27 pm #48387

Yep, the red X's are spawn locations for round start players. So both robo's will have their own separate spawn point. The design is essentially ready to go, I'll keep it up for a bit in case anyone else has feedback.

I'm tempted to put a jug of acid near the the circuit printer or even as far as a Ripley Boards. But that's more of a balancing issue than a mapping issue.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:20 pm #48412

This is really nice. Once this goes live I want to go mining just to see what they do with all the crates and shit I send them now.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:23 pm #48413

I've got little to say about two Roboticists being as issue other than that in my experience it feels totally fine. One guy grabs the toolbelt, nobody makes a fuss, and both fuck off to do their own thing

On another note, Steelpoint's new rendition of the area looks fantastic

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:30 pm #48419

I think I'll move the two spawns to be beneath the two equipment tables. I also had to rearrange the lights in the d̶u̶n̶g̶e̶o̶n̶ surgical area, having only a single light source means if it is knocked out at round start its all pitch black.

Thanks for the feedback, I'll tidy it up some time tomorrow and send it up.