A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

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A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby Swagbringer » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:37 am #489592

With the introduction of plasmamen and mothmen who are flash immune, followed by any pretense of "metagaming" of round types not being there I think a conversion item that works through hardsuits/sunglasses would be an improvement.

As an anecdotal experience I played a relatively low pop round as a Head Rev Mime, where I spent 15 minutes circling the station trying to find someone who was

1) Not a plasmaman/mothman
2) Not wearing a hardsuit/sunglasses

It was tedious and boring for everyone honestly. I managed to get two assistants jerking off in the halls before being ran down by security. If the roundtype has not been confirmed and there is word of flashes being heard in the hall, then security is going to swing the hammer down 100% guaranteed. Literally anyone with a flash, even scientists or engineers who could get their hands on them without being a headrev, are going to be immediately implanted or summarily executed. I dont think the notion that because its a flash that people dont immediately grasp its rev is an idea that is true anymore.



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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby Screemonster » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:36 am #489600

make a whole selection of innocuous items picked from the character setup screen just like you can with uplinks, your revolutionary is trained in the art of brainwashing people with that particular item
the big problem is picking items with some hardcounter (like flashes have) but not the same hardcounter, so to be totally conversionproof you'd need to stack them all in a stupid way, but making them something that's about as available to replace as a flash is

although it would be hilarious for clown revheads to be able to convert people by honking them

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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby WarbossLincoln » Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:36 pm #489610

Plasmemes and Moths being flash immune is stupid as hell and whoever is responsible should feel bad.
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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby NoxVS » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:22 pm #489616

I think it’s a bug for moths. For plasmemes it’s not that they are immune but more so that they always wear their helmets which happen to be flash proof. This means that you have to knock them into crit, bring them to a shower, remove their helmet, and then flash them, out the helmet back on, heal them. It’s just too tedious and means you just end up killing them and tossing their corpse in a locker.

I feel a better alternative was if you could make it so the rev flashes would pierce flash protection only when converting. Try to flash a mindshielded guy with glasses and it does nothing but flash a guy with glasses and no mindshield and it does
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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby Shaps-cloud » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:26 pm #489618

Why has no one still added eyes to moths yet
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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby NoxVS » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:42 pm #489620

Shaps-cloud wrote:Why has no one still added eyes to moths yet

No reason to work on it because someone else will get around to it eventually it
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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby Screemonster » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:24 pm #489624

NoxVS wrote:a bug for moths.

hee

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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby MisterPerson » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:47 pm #489627

Get rid of flash protection from hardsuits. Make sunglasses rarer or get rid of their flash protection too. Wow look problem solved.

The "random item to convert" is an OK idea to try. The "flash converts even if the flashing fails" is also ok. It's just that personally I think too many people are flash immune anyway. Flashes were chosen specifically because they're an item anybody might want to carry around, yet over the years more and more people spawn with sunglasses/hudglasses or easily get no-downside sunglasses or wear flash-immune no-downside hardsuits so nobody even tries to use a flash. And that was the case years ago, flashes are somehow even shittier now. Make Flashes Robust Again.
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Realism is playing a WW2 shooter and having to spend 2 months in hospital everytime you get shot - stupid and detrimental to gameplay. Nobody actually wants a realistic game, which is why realism arguments are so selectively used.
Source: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/ind ... t-19679470

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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby cedarbridge » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:00 pm #489646

Patch moths to have proper eyes again (which should have been fixed by now) and remove flash protection from plasmaman envirosuits. They shouldn't have it in the first place.

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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby ShadowDimentio » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:26 pm #489651

cedarbridge wrote:Patch moths to have proper eyes again (which should have been fixed by now) and remove flash protection from plasmaman envirosuits. They shouldn't have it in the first place.
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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby Dr_bee » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:43 pm #489653

ShadowDimentio wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:Patch moths to have proper eyes again (which should have been fixed by now) and remove flash protection from plasmaman envirosuits. They shouldn't have it in the first place.


They were given flash protection because they cant wear welding masks at all. That probably should be limited to just the engineering variant of the plasmaman mask.

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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby confused rock » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:41 pm #489660

plasmaman being hard to revify is a perfectly reasonable species upside.
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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby MisterPerson » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:05 pm #489661

>plasmamen have a downside of being forced to wear a special helmet constantly
>people complain that this downside doesn't allow them to wear welding masks or any other helmet
>plasmamen envirosuit helmets get welding protection because welding without protection is pretty bad

Why even have the restriction if you're just going to give them the solution to all the problems created by that restriction in the most boring way imaginable?
I code for the code project and moderate the code sections of the forums. I haven't played in like 2 years so don't listen to my suggestions.

Why realism is stupid:
Spoiler:
Wiz, the project lead of Europa Universalis IV:

Immersion/flavor is playing a WW2 shooter and using a mosin-nagant instead of a laser gun - this is important.

Realism is playing a WW2 shooter and having to spend 2 months in hospital everytime you get shot - stupid and detrimental to gameplay. Nobody actually wants a realistic game, which is why realism arguments are so selectively used.
Source: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/ind ... t-19679470

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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby cedarbridge » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:48 pm #489666

MisterPerson wrote:>plasmamen envirosuit helmets get welding protection because welding without protection is pretty bad

Always on flash protection/welding protection without the associated toggle or vision restrictions. Its been QoL power creeped.

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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby Dr_bee » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:27 pm #489671

cedarbridge wrote:
MisterPerson wrote:>plasmamen envirosuit helmets get welding protection because welding without protection is pretty bad

Always on flash protection/welding protection without the associated toggle or vision restrictions. Its been QoL power creeped.


The point of the envirosuit is that if you take it off you die, not not being able to do a very common thing a major department nearly constantly has to do.

The reason it was added was because not having it would make playing an engineer as a plasma-man would always mean blindness.

This was before department specific uniforms for plasmemes, so it can be changed to have the engineering, atmos, and robotics variants of the plasmeme helmet have flash protection but the others dont. It is a coding oversight at this point that all plasmemes get it instead of just the ones who need it to do basic functions of their job.

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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby confused rock » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:12 pm #489677

MisterPerson wrote:>plasmamen have a downside of being forced to wear a special helmet constantly
>people complain that this downside doesn't allow them to wear welding masks or any other helmet
>plasmamen envirosuit helmets get welding protection because welding without protection is pretty bad

Why even have the restriction if you're just going to give them the solution to all the problems created by that restriction in the most boring way imaginable?

>plasmamen have a massive downside that doesn't allow them to wear any other helmet
>plasmamen have multitude of other weaknesses including literally taking more damage
>people complain that the helmet they're forced to use has upsides
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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby Shadowflame909 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:41 pm #489680

confused rock wrote:
MisterPerson wrote:>plasmamen have a downside of being forced to wear a special helmet constantly
>people complain that this downside doesn't allow them to wear welding masks or any other helmet
>plasmamen envirosuit helmets get welding protection because welding without protection is pretty bad

Why even have the restriction if you're just going to give them the solution to all the problems created by that restriction in the most boring way imaginable?

>plasmamen have a massive downside that doesn't allow them to wear any other helmet
>plasmamen have multitude of other weaknesses including literally taking more damage
>people complain that the helmet they're forced to use has upsides


>plasmamen have a massive downside that doesn't allow them to wear any other helmet
>plasmamen have multitude of other weaknesses including literally taking more damage
>They keep getting buffed like removing suit slowdown, and giving them suit protections that human normies get

face it rock, they're the powergamers choice now. Its a human except their body can be used as a suicide attack when the going gets tough.

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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby BeeSting12 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:49 pm #489683

I don't mind plasmamen getting that upside, people should learn to work around it. I think it makes gameplay as a plasmaman on a rev round more interesting in terms of trying to survive.
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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby cedarbridge » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:02 pm #489685

BeeSting12 wrote:I don't mind plasmamen getting that upside, people should learn to work around it. I think it makes gameplay as a plasmaman on a rev round more interesting in terms of trying to survive.

As we've already seen with moths in rev, having even one unflashable race running around is a problem. Having two is pointless and needs to be fixed. Having an entire race of unflashable/atmos insulated skeletons is bad design.

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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby Mickyan » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:03 pm #489686

yeah can you imagine not being able to use a welding tool as an engineer just because you chose a mutant race!
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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby cedarbridge » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:08 pm #489687

Mickyan wrote:yeah can you imagine not being able to use a welding tool as an engineer just because you chose a mutant race!

Yes, imagine not being able to wear shoes just because you chose backwards lizard legs. Decisions precluding you from content. The horror.

As already discussed, if you want to add it to the engineering specific suits by all means, but we shouldn't have a situation where the whole station sans a couple assistants and the head of staff roles are unflashable.

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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby BeeSting12 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:30 pm #489689

moths should be flashable since there's no IC reason for them to be, plasmamen do have a decent reason. i also consider welding a bit more game essential than wearing shoes.
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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby SpaceManiac » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:45 pm #489690

Somehow nobody has pointed out that welding goggles and the welding gas mask exist, it's not like welding would be impossible for plasmamen just because of the helmet.

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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby Mickyan » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:06 am #489693

cedarbridge wrote:Yes, imagine not being able to wear shoes just because you chose backwards lizard legs. Decisions precluding you from content. The horror.

The joke was that moths can't even weld a wall without going blind and wearing welding goggles isn't enough, them being unflashable is a bug

The only way to safely do welding as a moth is with blindfolds and not even sunglasses will protect you from flashes
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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby cedarbridge » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:11 am #489694

SpaceManiac wrote:Somehow nobody has pointed out that welding goggles and the welding gas mask exist, it's not like welding would be impossible for plasmamen just because of the helmet.

Welding protection goes in the helmet or mask slot (for the mask and goggles, respectively)

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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby Dr_bee » Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:18 am #489704

cedarbridge wrote:
SpaceManiac wrote:Somehow nobody has pointed out that welding goggles and the welding gas mask exist, it's not like welding would be impossible for plasmamen just because of the helmet.

Welding protection goes in the helmet or mask slot (for the mask and goggles, respectively)


Welding goggles go in the eye slot, there are however like 5 of them on the station total and they are in hot demand.

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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby cedarbridge » Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:56 am #489707

Dr_bee wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
SpaceManiac wrote:Somehow nobody has pointed out that welding goggles and the welding gas mask exist, it's not like welding would be impossible for plasmamen just because of the helmet.

Welding protection goes in the helmet or mask slot (for the mask and goggles, respectively)


Welding goggles go in the eye slot, there are however like 5 of them on the station total and they are in hot demand.

So they have to go a bit out of their way to get something that will allow them to compensate for their choice to play a race that is poorly equipped for the role they got. That sounds like cause and effect.

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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby teepeepee » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:32 am #489712

Dr_bee wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
SpaceManiac wrote:Somehow nobody has pointed out that welding goggles and the welding gas mask exist, it's not like welding would be impossible for plasmamen just because of the helmet.

Welding protection goes in the helmet or mask slot (for the mask and goggles, respectively)


Welding goggles go in the eye slot, there are however like 5 of them on the station total and they are in hot demand.

you can make blindfolds with cloth, you can get cloth wirecutting bedsheets, there's plenty of bedsheets around the station
if we can expect moths to get around it by being momentarily blind, I believe we could expect the "hardmode" race to do it too

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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby Dr_bee » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:44 am #489713

cedarbridge wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
SpaceManiac wrote:Somehow nobody has pointed out that welding goggles and the welding gas mask exist, it's not like welding would be impossible for plasmamen just because of the helmet.

Welding protection goes in the helmet or mask slot (for the mask and goggles, respectively)


Welding goggles go in the eye slot, there are however like 5 of them on the station total and they are in hot demand.

So they have to go a bit out of their way to get something that will allow them to compensate for their choice to play a race that is poorly equipped for the role they got. That sounds like cause and effect.


The concept of races being poorly equipped for a job is bad design. If there is a race on the station it should be able to do every job on the station.

Again, if you dislike flash protection in plasmemes, consider coding the protection to only being in the engineering, atmos, and robotics plasma man helmet and not the others.

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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby cedarbridge » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:45 am #489715

Dr_bee wrote:The concept of races being poorly equipped for a job is bad design. If there is a race on the station it should be able to do every job on the station.

I'm not seeing the logic to this. Unless all races are equally capable then design is bad? So the races should be different but only in ways that don't meaningfully affect the round? Sounds rather pointless and fiddly to me.

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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby zxaber » Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:29 am #489720

For the record, sometime last year I played robo moth for a few days. Welding was difficult, but not impossible; double eye protection is a pain to manage but totally doable. For the plasmas, robotics has a pair of welding goggles, and I bet anyone in engineering/atmos could grab a hardsuit and head into space for a quick swap without igniting. And welding gas masks are generally among the first things researched, since it's on the path to advanced mining tech, so within about ten to fifteen minutes you'll almost certainly be able to print one out from the science or engineering protolathe.

Anyway, I like the revs' tool being flashing, because I dislike being converted when I'm robo. Being a rev with a goal of killing the heads of staff goes directly against what I have most fun as robo (which is making borgs). I can get around it by rushing a law change, but ultimately if a ton of asimov borgs are running around and it causes us to lose, it's on me. So if I can just drop my welding mask every time I leave to go do something and stay out of it all, I'm good.
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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby oranges » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:19 am #489731

just nerf them

after all Im apparently the nerf lord king so you may as well take the advantage of it.
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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:48 am #490078

I think flash protection on plasma men is fine. Surviving is harder and people will generally murder you for being a plasma on rev, or almost-murder you, and welding protection is maybe the one single upside of being a plasma man.

Sunglasses need flash protection because otherwise security wouldn't function. Flash stuns are one of the very few stuns that security is generally immune to (not to mention a very common, easy to get hard stun), and flashes are a very safe stunning tool for a sec officer to use since it can't be used back against them. Sunglasses just need to be a lot less rare. Several out-and-about jobs have them at spawn that don't really need them (QM, lawyer) and they are common maint loot and a few reliable spawns that are fairly easy to access.

That said, some options might be nice, maybe some stuff with other interesting counters and a distinctive sound? Like a taser with 1 range that doesn't work on armor, or a telebaton, but it cant convert or stun if you wear a helmet.
It can't be anything that dramatically changes the dynamics of conversion or makes it easy to stun security, because as a conversion mode revolution is absolutely perfect as it is.
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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby WarbossLincoln » Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:28 pm #490122

Someone said that there's a PR to fix moths being flash immune but oranges doesn't want to ok it, if that's true there's not much we can do about that. I don't know how accurate that is though cause I haven't looked myself.
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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby SpaceManiac » Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:08 pm #490132

WarbossLincoln wrote:Someone said that there's a PR to fix moths being flash immune but oranges doesn't want to ok it, if that's true there's not much we can do about that. I don't know how accurate that is though cause I haven't looked myself.


The PR was here, but it was a patchwork revert that didn't address the issue:
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/43632

A new fix is here:
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/43661

The problem was that "flash immune" and "no eye sprites" were the same thing, when they shouldn't be.

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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby iamgoofball » Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:13 pm #490135

oranges wrote:just nerf them

after all Im apparently the nerf lord king so you may as well take the advantage of it.

if I wasn't github banned you'd better believe the pr list would be entirely needed nerfs

PostThis post was deleted by PKPenguin321 on Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:24 am.
Reason: Off topic

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Re: A new conversion item for Revolution is sorely needed

Postby Grazyn » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:18 am #490555

How about, let plasmen have flash protection on their helmets, but they have to toggle it like the regular welding helmet, complete with reduced vision and everything? This way they won't always have it on.


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