Telescience removal: feedback edition

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:35 pm #52018

For those who do not know, telescience is slated to be removed: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/6407

As this is a major change I thought a feedback thread would be wise to have.

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:47 pm #52021

I'm on the fence with this.
When you have someone working in Telescience and they're good at it they can end up getting spaced corpses, space items, and do whacky antics if they're an antag. I myself can't be assed to learn telescience because I hate fucking math.
Not having it frees up SOME resources, no making super caps for them,blue space cystrals to upgrade their range and what not.
The bad thing is only a few people on /tg/ knew how to telescience and do it well that would result in them being able to do what ever they want but at the same time, I maybe had one encounter were telescience ended a Malf AI round early because the telescience crew at the time knew what he was doing.
Maybe add something else to there.

Perakp · Post by **Perakp** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:49 pm #52022

Here are some links to previous discussions for those that are confused about why this is being considered

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=1926

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1915

Personally I haven't ever used telescience or understood the fun or the point of it, so it doesn't really change my play experience if it is removed. But I'm still hoping it could be improved/fixed rather than removed.

Bluespace · Post by **Bluespace** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:54 pm #52024

Telescience was fun and i'm disappointed to see it removed.
Removing features isn't great.

Alex Crimson · Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:04 pm

Sad to see it go, but i can understand the reasoning. Pretty much the only way to be effective at Telescience was to use a spreadsheet/calculator, so banning that would kill the job for most people. Then you have the guys who like to powergame by writing down coords and gathering all the goodies from space without effort, or knowing the exact coords for stealing stuff from the Armory etc. Whilst i admit ive done this a few times for fun, i can understand why its frowned upon.

Rather than removing it, i would rather see devices to stop people teleporting to certain areas, like the AI core or Armory. Removing it will make Science a little less interesting, and Toxins/Xenobiology are boring enough as it is. At the very least i think coders should consider what else can possibly be added to Science if they intend to remove Telescience.

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:05 pm #52027

i think all the problems it had were fixable and removing it is not great.

the only problem i have with telescience is that most people don't know how to use it, and those that do 'cheat' to be good. the fact that when it's well run it's extremely powerful isn't really a problem i don't think. i do think the AI is far too vulnerable to it though. i've been stolen a few times by people who barely interacted with anyone in the round, turtled in telescience for about 10 minutes and then stole me with absolutely no recourse on the part of anybody, least of all myself.

this doesn't really make me want to remove it though. just add safeguards for the AI satellite against tele-intrusion, or make it easier to see where they're teleporting to, or what have you. if somebody wants it i think we should keep it.

i guess if nobody wants it in the game though that's fine to remove it. i don't really mind either way is what i'm trying to say i guess.

Alex Crimson · Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:10 pm

The thing is, the math is so annoying that without "cheating" using a calculator or spreadsheet, then you will either fail completely or be so slow that its not worth the effort. Hell, the math is beyond many people who play, so it will just be a dead job if those methods are banned.

Saltycut · Post by **Saltycut** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:48 pm #52035

I don't even feel like writing anything here because I know it won't change anything and I've already stated my opinion in phil235's pull. Removing a feature without proposing anything interesting for a change is a sing of a bad developing. I wonder if MrPerson actaully ever killed AI or blob with telescience...and now without it we will be one more step closer to bay who did the same. People crying about bombing AI when you can just move your core or depower apc...well I have nothing against rewriting telescience to make it more fun but straight deleting it from the code...

Reimoo · Post by **Reimoo** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:00 am #52036

So why is nerfing it not an option again?

Hornygranny · Post by **Hornygranny** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:13 am #52037

Feature in search of a purpose, fundamentally broken. The rest of the game was not designed to have on demand pinpoint accurate teleporting. That's not even touching the flaws in the implementation, which mean you have to cheat for it to be useful.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:27 am #52038

It needs to go. If you want to make it better, go ahead and try, but don't say it's bad design to remove something that is obviously out of place.

phil235 · Post by **phil235** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:32 am #52039

I made an alternative pull request ( https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/6419 ) that heavily nerf telescience instead of removing it altogether. Telescience does need to be replaced by something else, but we don't have to completely remove it while we wait.

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:44 am #52070

Why not just randomize the space gear slightly so you can't just ninja it outright, maybe leave the nasa voidsuits where they are, that way you have to get a suit and then go exploring, AND you have to have someone back on the station to bring you home.

As for telebombing the AI and stuff? Give the AI a telesport shield of some kind, call it a bluespace exclusion field or whatever. Also, the reason that telebombing the core is so popular (relatively speaking, that is. 80% of the time there is no telescience crew anyway) is that it is a goddamn fortress otherwise, and it takes either a massive assault of engineers and sec with flashbangs and lasers otherwise. If the AI core was less of an invincible superfortress, there wouldn't be such incentive to bomb it instead of just killing it normally.

soulgamer · Post by **soulgamer** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:40 am #52081

I can understand this removal. It was either OP or useless depending on the crew with the ones who knew how to use it abusing it. However can we not find something useful to stick there other than a hideous break room that just encourages scientists to spend even LESS time outside of R&D?

It seems that right now there is quite a bit of unused space in R&D that could be better utilized. The testing lab is hardly used as it is.

If nothing else lets turn it into an "Parascience Research aka. Tinfoil Hat" room and have things like a wizard robe and staff in a case, a dead juggernaut, a soul shard, and other things like that.

Methelod · Post by **Methelod** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:43 am #52082

As others have said, over and over. Telescience is not fun. Not for the person using it, not for the person on the receiving end of it. Currently it requires a calculator to actually do/a spreadsheet to have any hope of doing anything in a reasonable amount of time, and there is no counter play to it whatsoever. It's pretty much the representation of every single thing wrong with science at the moment. Often requiring a lot of pointless boring work, to get toys that primarily only scientists will use, that in the best case situation is power gamey as all hell. The other parts of science have fun parts, but telescience is mostly fun for trying to power game.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:47 am #52108

iyaerP wrote:Why not just randomize the space gear slightly so you can't just ninja it outright, maybe leave the nasa voidsuits where they are, that way you have to get a suit and then go exploring, AND you have to have someone back on the station to bring you home.

As for telebombing the AI and stuff? Give the AI a telesport shield of some kind, call it a bluespace exclusion field or whatever. Also, the reason that telebombing the core is so popular (relatively speaking, that is. 80% of the time there is no telescience crew anyway) is that it is a goddamn fortress otherwise, and it takes either a massive assault of engineers and sec with flashbangs and lasers otherwise. If the AI core was less of an invincible superfortress, there wouldn't be such incentive to bomb it instead of just killing it normally.

You mean this?

Incomptinence · Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:14 am

Just make the teleporter room teleporter machine fully science constructible (you can already make the computer). It is quite powerful within its own system of beacons and such, almost seemed forgotten in the shadow of telescience's near omnipotence.

The people who legit do telescience were just making their own equivalent tools in spreadsheets or whatever. If you aren't a tiding maniac you get it working and have little to do with it due to it primarily being the theftmaster 2000, bombs and corpse retrieval are way behind nicking loot in terms of usage.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:23 am #52111

Hornygranny wrote:Feature in search of a purpose, fundamentally broken. The rest of the game was not designed to have on demand pinpoint accurate teleporting. That's not even touching the flaws in the implementation, which mean you have to cheat for it to be useful.

Toxins and Xenobio are equally "features searching for a purpose." That's a cute sounding phrase without the function of meaning. Telescience had been used for dozens of legitimate uses (that had nothing to do with cross-z-level theft) and it makes no sense for the playerbase to complain about missing a feature that somehow had no purpose for them.

Is this really what we've come to though? Basic trig and the use of a calculator to aid that trig calculation is "too hard" and "cheating?" I find that coming from coders confusing because all of you should have some basic concept of trig. Its like babby's first advanced math.

Incomptinence · Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:26 am

What mathematical formula gave you the map? This was never about mathematical or any other kind of skill for all but a very few front runners early on and even they automated shit I mean why the fuck wouldn't you?

TheWiznard · Post by **TheWiznard** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:41 am #52115

as a malf AI player I for one am glad that mime's will no longer be able to teleport directly into my core and kill me before I know what's going on. I'm happy to see telescience go also because as an AI player I've never seen it used for good and only "get all da loot".

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:10 am #52118

Incomptinence wrote:What mathematical formula gave you the map? This was never about mathematical or any other kind of skill for all but a very few front runners early on and even they automated shit I mean why the fuck wouldn't you?

The same mathematical formulas that gave me our chem recipes and construction instructions for everything on the station. Or do you want me to believe that everyone went into the game without any sort of out-of-game aids? I mean, people like to say "but the wiki's different!" but don't bother to elaborate on the excuse because its a null statement. Metaknowledge is metaknowledge. Its all in or its all out. Making an exception for telesci coordinate maps is cherrypicking.

TheWiznard wrote:as a malf AI player I for one am glad that mime's will no longer be able to teleport directly into my core and kill me before I know what's going on. I'm happy to see telescience go also because as an AI player I've never seen it used for good and only "get all da loot".

Literally "I died thanks for nerf" A competent AI would shut down telesci the same way they'd shut down the RD's office. You died to a mime because you were ignorant about something that existed. That's not telesci's fault. That's a personal knowledge deficit.

Incomptinence · Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:18 am

Oh I am pro allowing the metaknowledge. I am also pro removal though because I think balance wise telescience was totally out of whack, even within the lopsided asymmetry I love it was a severe outlier. Not saying abuse was rampant, but each instance of abuse could be severe.

omnitricks · Post by **omnitricks** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:25 am #52122

I actually like telesci. It gives that sciency feel in a futuristic game and the fact it was removed without any discussion to nerf/change with an equivalent just shows the nazism in the coders yet again.

Frankly saying that it ends malf rounds is stupid. Just make the core teleportproof. Simple. Thats why people needed to use the telebeacon to go there. For blob it isn't that easy. You need people to pinpoint where the core it before you can even attempt to blow it up and that is not an easy task once the blob gets extremely big. Unless you are very lucky/good in telesci you wouldn't be able to work the equations out by that time.

For loot, people have already said randomize it. Maint loot is already randomized so why can't you even do the same? That or randomize items that are pulled through the teleporter (heard o the fly mixing dna thing? Of ycourse you do. It even happens in the game)

Telesci is one of the reasons why I max my suit sensors. So people can grab me when I die. Even that, is a rare gambit.

Hitlers.

Raven776 · Post by **Raven776** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:34 am #52125

I say leave telescience as something that science can build but take out the specific room for it and make it a project people have to come up with...

The pinpoint teleportation is a tool that's too powerful to exist from round start, but nothing's better than recalling the miners and whatnot from the station straight into mining or cargo.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:37 am #52126

The problem with telesci is cutting out the overpowered stuff and leaving in what's useful.

Unless we get a teleport blocking mechanic.

TheWiznard · Post by **TheWiznard** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:21 pm #52151

cedarbridge wrote:
TheWiznard wrote:as a malf AI player I for one am glad that mime's will no longer be able to teleport directly into my core and kill me before I know what's going on. I'm happy to see telescience go also because as an AI player I've never seen it used for good and only "get all da loot".
Literally "I died thanks for nerf" A competent AI would shut down telesci the same way they'd shut down the RD's office. You died to a mime because you were ignorant about something that existed. That's not telesci's fault. That's a personal knowledge deficit.

It has nothing to do with being ccompetent, anyone can use telesci in under 60 seconds with calculators. I might add I'm only salty because that was from the era of basil queers who would roundstart cut telesci's camera every round "because they didn't want me to fuck with telesci". You can't make telesci totally random because then no one would put effort into bother with it's shit. As long as you can just sit at the fucking computer and enter in some numbers to make magic happens, it's bullshit. Remove telesci and the gateway. Make telesci the only way to get to away missions. Bam. telesci no longer is a problem and is about probing some unknown place for whatever reason. "personal knowledge deficit" is a bullshit term when everyone in telescience are putting numbers into an automagic calculator. You can't know that they are going to fucking know where everything in the game is with a bullshit mechanic like telesci is as it is now

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:52 pm #52156

TheWiznard wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
TheWiznard wrote:as a malf AI player I for one am glad that mime's will no longer be able to teleport directly into my core and kill me before I know what's going on. I'm happy to see telescience go also because as an AI player I've never seen it used for good and only "get all da loot".
Literally "I died thanks for nerf" A competent AI would shut down telesci the same way they'd shut down the RD's office. You died to a mime because you were ignorant about something that existed. That's not telesci's fault. That's a personal knowledge deficit.
It has nothing to do with being ccompetent, anyone can use telesci in under 60 seconds with calculators. I might add I'm only salty because that was from the era of basil queers who would roundstart cut telesci's camera every round "because they didn't want me to fuck with telesci". You can't make telesci totally random because then no one would put effort into bother with it's shit. As long as you can just sit at the fucking computer and enter in some numbers to make magic happens, it's bullshit. Remove telesci and the gateway. Make telesci the only way to get to away missions. Bam. telesci no longer is a problem and is about probing some unknown place for whatever reason. "personal knowledge deficit" is a bullshit term when everyone in telescience are putting numbers into an automagic calculator. You can't know that they are going to fucking know where everything in the game is with a bullshit mechanic like telesci is as it is now

You literally just admitted the issue wasn't telesci, it was nerds metagaming the AI by pre-cutting cameras. Care to guess what happened the last malf round I was in when working telesci? The console ate me.

You're also mixing two entirely different trains of thought to write that post. The personal knowledge deficit isn't "I know where everything is and you don't" (which literally exists in everything in the game depending on the freshness of the player) but rather your knowledge about the abilities the crew has in combating the AI. An AI aware of telesci and what it can do can formulate a plan to make sure it isn't a problem. The console itself doesn't bomb you to hell and you can't really make bombs in the telesci lab. If you're getting telebombed that means you literally had so little control over the station that an entire department had enough resources intact to collaborate and dunk you. Blaming one part of that equation for your downfall is silly.

Pybro · Post by **Pybro** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:09 pm #52158

What is it being replaced with?

You're removing a feature, what are you putting in its place? Because as it stands for a "Research Station", there's remarkably little research. Instead of having 4 research areas we'll only have 3 again.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:13 pm #52161

Pybro wrote:What is it being replaced with?

You're removing a feature, what are you putting in its place? Because as it stands for a "Research Station", there's remarkably little research. Instead of having 4 research areas we'll only have 3 again.

This is also an important point. As soon as you start cutting science content you start cutting into things those players would be doing that they no longer can do to occupy their time in a round. So that 1-2 guys from telesci is going to do what now? Crowd into toxins with the other guy already running what is really a 1-man show? Pack into R&D which really already gets the 1-2 people that can profitably work it? Pack into xenobio where 2 is already a liability with slime pairing mechanics. Adding a third person is just asking for casualties all around when nobody can tell who is paired to what slimes. You really can't cut out an entire job and then leave nothing behind for them to do but sit around at a table and remember what it was like to have a job.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:19 pm #52164

Pybro wrote:What is it being replaced with?

You're removing a feature, what are you putting in its place? Because as it stands for a "Research Station", there's remarkably little research. Instead of having 4 research areas we'll only have 3 again.

Currently it is being replaced with a breakroom, unless someone comes up with a way to fix it. (Hint.)

Post by **MisterPerson** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:27 pm #52168

We had the current number of scientist job slots for ages before telescience was added, so I don't consider that to be a convincing argument of anything.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:36 pm #52169

Science only needs 3 people to do all the jobs, and not everyone want to do Xeno/Toxins in the first place. The whole department is usually a mad grab for R&D, assuming the damn RD doesnt pull rank and feel the need to do it themselves(which heads should not be doing, imo).

We need a new Science department, like Archaeology or Cybernetics/human augmentation/full-on Robot designing with AI and such.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:41 pm #52170

I do think Science is suffering from a lack of meaningful roles, personally only Robotics is enjoyable to me as its more than just putting items inside a box and increasing a number or wasting time on rng to give me a slime I want. Science needs something more involving and actually experimental in nature. Even just porting archaeology would be a good start.

Not everything needs to end in the creation of a combat mech/tons of advance guns/bombs/slimes, to me Science is just the means for more combat gear. Think about it, of the four science fields (discounting telesci) three of them result in the creation of powerful combat equipment (Mechs, Guns or Bombs).

Even though I think telesci at its core is broken, I respect it for being something unique and not the be all to more fucking combat gear. The sad problem is that its easily abused to get, guess what, more combat gear!

TheWiznard · Post by **TheWiznard** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:51 pm #52174

cedarbridge wrote: You literally just admitted the issue wasn't telesci, it was nerds metagaming the AI by pre-cutting cameras. Care to guess what happened the last malf round I was in when working telesci? The console ate me.

You're also mixing two entirely different trains of thought to write that post. The personal knowledge deficit isn't "I know where everything is and you don't" (which literally exists in everything in the game depending on the freshness of the player) but rather your knowledge about the abilities the crew has in combating the AI. An AI aware of telesci and what it can do can formulate a plan to make sure it isn't a problem. The console itself doesn't bomb you to hell and you can't really make bombs in the telesci lab. If you're getting telebombed that means you literally had so little control over the station that an entire department had enough resources intact to collaborate and dunk you. Blaming one part of that equation for your downfall is silly.

I said nothing about bombs, people can still teleport onto your core and beat you to death before your lasers can do shit about it. I'm not blaming the console or anything in the room for that matter for my downfall. I'm just saying that I /personally/ think telescience is shit and doesn't contribute to "research" on the station at large; other than body retrieval there is nothing worthwhile from telescience gameplay wise as it is now. "oh you can still grab stuff to decon for rn-" yeah yeah, and along with all that you can just swoop all the other goodies in space. I personally feel like telesci is powergame: the job. Yeah you have put in a marginally amount of effort to get anything done, but still. I just don't feel like it contributes anything good. You can say I'm salty forever because I was killed by telesci, but I'll still say I think it's a shitty mechanic and job

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:53 pm #52175

MisterPerson wrote:We had the current number of scientist job slots for ages before telescience was added, so I don't consider that to be a convincing argument of anything.

However the arrangement was previous to telescience cannot be accepted as optimal just because it existed previously. If it were optimal, it would still be. It isn't. People realized there were more people than tasks they could fruitfully do. Now you're arguing to remove one of those tasks and further crowd already taxed lab space.

Post by **Jacquerel** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:55 pm #52176

I know the person who made the version of telescience that then got ported here and they mostly made it "because it sounded cool" rather than because of pressure on scientist job slots. That wasn't a factor.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:12 pm #52184

cedarbridge wrote:
MisterPerson wrote:We had the current number of scientist job slots for ages before telescience was added, so I don't consider that to be a convincing argument of anything.
However the arrangement was previous to telescience cannot be accepted as optimal just because it existed previously. If it were optimal, it would still be. It isn't. People realized there were more people than tasks they could fruitfully do. Now you're arguing to remove one of those tasks and further crowd already taxed lab space.

if telescience were optimal, it wouldn't be at the point of being removed.

there is no real obligation to "put something in it's place" when removing telescience. we've just always had a very hard time coming up with meaningful science roles. If you can think of anything, please do make an ideas thread.
that doesn't mean we dont WANT to put something in the place.

omnitricks · Post by **omnitricks** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:14 pm #52225

MisterPerson wrote:We had the current number of scientist job slots for ages before telescience was added, so I don't consider that to be a convincing argument of anything.

Dude do you even play science or do you want to rush this no telesci thing through?

R&D only ever needs one person. Unless someone wants to go fetch materials but even that we can ask other non-science personnel. R&D can also be completed within 15 minutes leaving one scientist with nothing to do in the late game. - 1
Telescience only has one console therefore only one person needed unless someone wants to explore. But that too we can use other non-science personnel. - 1
Toxins may have three testing areas (one in the lab, one in space and one in the extra room south of science) but there is only so much equipment. I would say two people maximum (because I've tried three people before. It isn't pretty) - 2
Xenobio can be at full capacity with only one person (although its a stressful mad rush) Two people are good enough to handle three pens each. Three people will end up with them playing the waiting game. - 2

Thats six for the maximum of five scientists at roundstart. Then we have the RD which wants to do something which means him cutting into someone elses job. Looking at the list above that would be inefficient, crowded and messy for the only two things that can "fit" more people (a.k.a. toxins and xenobio)

Does the saying too many cooks spoil the broth mean anything to you?

Either try playing science yourself and find out a suitable replacement to add to it so the extra scientists will have something to do, reduce the maximum scientists at roundstart or keep telesci until you figure things out. Taking a feature out without due consideration is a detriment and an abuse of power. More than once as a scientist, I'm forced to bum around the bar or tide because the RD evicts me from R&D (which is the only thing I can actually do competently) or Xenobio gets too crowded for my tastes with everyone tripping over each other.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:11 pm #52252

Telescience is a horrible feature. It circumvents all the other balancing processes we have in place and just takes things or sends things around the station. I'm glad it's gone and I doubt it's possible to fix it.

People complaining about it's removal rather than fixing it?

Fix it then. As is it's broken and it sucks. There's no reason to keep it in the round because someday someone might fix it. It's garbage TODAY. It needs to be removed TODAY. If you want to fix it for TOMORROW, get to work on it then. It can be brought back TOMORROW when you've done the work.

omnitricks wrote:Either try playing science yourself and find out a suitable replacement to add to it so the extra scientists will have something to do, reduce the maximum scientists at roundstart or keep telesci until you figure things out. Taking a feature out without due consideration is a detriment and an abuse of power. More than once as a scientist, I'm forced to bum around the bar or tide because the RD evicts me from R&D (which is the only thing I can actually do competently) or Xenobio gets too crowded for my tastes with everyone tripping over each other.

Boo hoo this is a problem in every single department on the station with our current population. Learn to be less antisocial and work better with others. Keeping a broken feature around just so someone has something to do is hilariously dumb.

Alex Crimson · Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:50 pm

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/6419

That fix seems to stop all the super powergamey stuff, whilst still allowing Telescience to collect bodies and such.

As for the overcrowding of the station, that shouldve been fixed a long time ago, but i guess there are more important things to do doing, right?

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:52 pm #52258

That's a topic for another thread. A thread where a few of us have repeatedly suggested putting a cap on each server to split the playerbase evenly between two similar stations.

But I guess you have more important things to do?

Alex Crimson · Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:01 pm

Not my place to make up rules like that, im not a headmin after all.

But yeah, the Telescience fix phil235 proposed seems like a better way to go than just removing Telescience completely, atleast for now.

Silavite · Post by **Silavite** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:30 pm #52267

I agree that Telescience needs to be removed or rebalanced, but this also affects R&D. The Telepad board has Bluespace 3, so it's the only way of getting Bluespace up to 4 in R&D without deconstructing the Teleporter (which most of the time at least one of the heads objects to, most often the HoS or captain), or crossing your fingers for Xenobiology to get blue slimes (never happens).

Incomptinence · Sat Dec 20, 2014 12:54 am

Hypothetically telescience had insanely unfair murder potential. Remotely teleporting people into a practically instant death burn chamber or whatever. Not hard to make a stupidly lethal small room.

Seen similar done with hand teleporters but at least those guys need a little proximity to their target.

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:17 am #52283

For all the bitching I see the coders doing about the OVERPOWERED BULLSHIT THAT IS TELESCIENCE, it doesn't get used for telebombing or mass theft very often. If it was really as big of a balance issue as is being claimed, we should see that get used every single round. But it isn't. Hell, most rounds it doesn't even have an operator. What does get used almost every single round? subverting the AI. Why? Because it is powerful and effective without having an insane time investment like building up the telescience setup. And for everyone saying "oh, telescience can just steal people off the street and port them to their deaths". Have you even tried that? Unless your target has suit sensors maxxed, you have your own crew monitoring computer, and they are standing perfectly still, even with a calculator, it STILL takes about 20 seconds to go from putting in their coordinates to kidnapping them. The only people I have EVER been able to pull it off with have been HoP and Warden, both when they were sitting at their desks. And I spent one round doing nothing but trying to steal random people out of the hallways.

Incomptinence · Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:25 am

Yeah standing still for 20 seconds shouldn't be gg though.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:35 am #52289

Pulling that off is pretty damn hard though, hard enough for it to be a pretty robust and awesome thing to do. Honestly i prefer the idea of teleporting your target into the singularity via telescience than murdering them with an ebow/esword.

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:41 am #52291

Incomptinence wrote:Yeah standing still for 20 seconds shouldn't be gg though.

Except it isn't, because even after the teleport, there is a 5 ingame second delay before you can send them anywhere.

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:13 am #52308

An0n3 wrote:
Fix it then. As is it's broken and it sucks. There's no reason to keep it in the round because someday someone might fix it. It's garbage TODAY. It needs to be removed TODAY. If you want to fix it for TOMORROW, get to work on it then. It can be brought back TOMORROW when you've done the work.

Gentlemen, design 101: Nothing gets a pass because lazy. If it is broken, don't put it in to fix later, don't leave it in to fix later. If it is unfinished, don't put it in to finish it later unless you have a real design timetable and it is absolutely imperative for other finished features to work.

Telescience has enough issues that it is determental to the entire game in a situational manner. Removing it would be detremental to specific player's enjoyment of the round in a situational manner. Neither the drawbacks nor benefits of telescience are massive or prevasive, but telescience does more harm than it does good.

Science having a lack of things to do is not a reason to keep something that is broken in. That is a problem with science's overall design, where one to two science players get to make a ministation and the others are stuck with trash. An upgrade workshop would be a nice, focused less on creating new gear and more making existing gear better. Workshop, not lab, requiring the scientist to toy with the gear in question by hand each time, oldschool craftsmanship style, to prevent automation and to allow multiple scienists to work on multiple items without triping over each other. May get them to finally share stuff with other departments as well.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:29 am #52328

Miauw wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
MisterPerson wrote:We had the current number of scientist job slots for ages before telescience was added, so I don't consider that to be a convincing argument of anything.
However the arrangement was previous to telescience cannot be accepted as optimal just because it existed previously. If it were optimal, it would still be. It isn't. People realized there were more people than tasks they could fruitfully do. Now you're arguing to remove one of those tasks and further crowd already taxed lab space.
if telescience were optimal, it wouldn't be at the point of being removed.

there is no real obligation to "put something in it's place" when removing telescience. we've just always had a very hard time coming up with meaningful science roles. If you can think of anything, please do make an ideas thread.
that doesn't mean we dont WANT to put something in the place.

"Look, we know what we have isn't perfect, but its better to remove the imperfect thing now and leave a huge gap in a department for zero real gain than to plan a replacement before removing content." This is essentially the approach to every "fix" like this and its what is driving players crazy. If you want to remove content, you'd better be giving us something else to do in its palce. And no, sitting in a break room is not "something else to do." Like it or not, and by your own admission, you are strapped for science content. Removing more of it isn't aiding that and only exacerbates an already cramped department. The onus is not on me as an affected player to produce more content in the place of what you're proposing be removed because frankly, I'd rather not see content removed because malf players couldn't be bothered to disable the console and wardens couldn't be bothered to watch their armory.

An0n3 wrote:
Fix it then. As is it's broken and it sucks. There's no reason to keep it in the round because someday someone might fix it. It's garbage TODAY. It needs to be removed TODAY. If you want to fix it for TOMORROW, get to work on it then. It can be brought back TOMORROW when you've done the work.

If somebody says they're removing something today to fix it tomorrow, they really mean they don't like it today and will have forgotten about it tomorrow. We both know this is true.

dezzmont wrote: Telescience has enough issues that it is determental to the entire game in a situational manner. Removing it would be detremental to specific player's enjoyment of the round in a situational manner. Neither the drawbacks nor benefits of telescience are massive or prevasive, but telescience does more harm than it does good.

If this were true, its effects would permeate more than the .5% of rounds where it has a direct round-shaping impact. Toxins and Atmos generally do "more harm than good" yet they're untouched because they are what they are.