Please Balance Syndicate Cyborgs

Atticat · Post by **Atticat** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:32 pm #53723

Currently, pooling your crystals for a syndicate cyborg is basically objectively the right choice. This ruins the creativity of nuke ops making different plans each round. Let's detail why they are so OP.

- Syndicate cyborgs can kill the AI easily
- Syndicate cyborgs are often controlled by admins, one of my biggest complaints. This means your cyborg is likely more skilled than half your nuke ops team and are relatively admin exclusive (something admins don't like to make known).
- Syndicate cyborgs add another person to your team (or two!!!)
- They don't need oxygen or any of that jazz to survive. You can be sure your cyborg will be self-sufficient in its activities. (and they have lasers)

So, what can we do about it?

I propose we either:
A: Remove syndicate cyborgs
B: Make it so one of your nuke ops members must become the cyborg, sacrificing manpower and the advantages of being an ops in favor of cyborgification.

Seriously tho, I think it's quite broken as it is. There is really no reason to not get atleast ONE cyborg as ops. So boring.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:35 pm #53724

The only real problem here is the syndieborg killing the AI effortlessly.

Atticat · Post by **Atticat** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:37 pm #53725

No. Adding another member to your team (a cyborg with lasers and essentially all access to boot), is infinitely better than some shitty teleporter that brings you to bridge.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:09 pm #53731

I disagree.

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:17 pm #53732

The borg is pretty much required to counter AI shenannigans, even if it isn't used as an AI assassin. Otherwise the ops will end up bolted into some random room, and have to waste a minute figuring out the wires, and then spend 20 extra seconds at every single door from that point on.

Nuke ops lose enough as it is, and the borg requires a large investment of telecystals. If anything, the marauder should be made better, as that costs more for less effect.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:21 pm #53733

That's why you have bombs and shit. Nuke Ops should require a bit of planning. I think syndieborgs just waltzing in the core and lasering the AI before the AI can do anything is somewhat shit.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:48 pm #53737

iyaerP wrote:The borg is pretty much required to counter AI shenannigans, even if it isn't used as an AI assassin. Otherwise the ops will end up bolted into some random room, and have to waste a minute figuring out the wires, and then spend 20 extra seconds at every single door from that point on.

C4 is made for what?

Hell, AI is even on its own sat, you could blow open its core with bombs and laser the fuck out of it before it even has time to realise the atmos alarms are going off right next to it.

Atticat · Post by **Atticat** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:53 pm #53738

The problem is spending crystals on a bomb or two isn't worth losing out on an extra team member that is almost guarenteed to be good at its job and jam-packed with game breaking devices like all-access telekinesis, cold immunity, heat immunity, and lasers. I really, really, really think a nuke op should have to become the cyborg. No more of this admin exclusive shit. It also helps balance things out since you aren't gaining an extra teammate.

ExplosiveCrate · Sat Dec 27, 2014 9:33 pm

>admin exclusive

ayy lmao

Though I do agree that instead of adding a team member one of the ops should become a cyborg.

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 9:37 pm #53742

It looks like there are a few related problems with the syndicate.

The AI is a very hard counter to them, because they need to spend time learning the wires and screwing with them to counter it. This could be solved by allowing them to start with the wires in notes. Yes, they could get a bomb, but at a certain point you are essnetially saying that they should only be able to open a number of doors equal to the amount of bombs they buy. Using those bombs to take out walls is more interesting and requiring them is really lame for the syndicate, especially because the borg is a better option.

Requiring a player to become a borg makes sense. It is a straight upgrade to a fully kitted out syndicate member in most ways and the extra team member is just icing on the cake.

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 9:57 pm #53745

Atticat wrote: - Syndicate cyborgs can kill the AI easily
- Syndicate cyborgs are often controlled by admins, one of my biggest complaints. This means your cyborg is likely more skilled than half your nuke ops team and are relatively admin exclusive (something admins don't like to make known).
- Syndicate cyborgs add another person to your team (or two!!!)
- They don't need oxygen or any of that jazz to survive. You can be sure your cyborg will be self-sufficient in its activities. (and they have lasers)

*Because having the AI active can easily fuck over any Nuke Op team. Plus it's even stated that the Syndicate Borg is a Security Borg with a new coat of paint and weapons to boot. At least it isn't the default security borg sprite.
*Syndieborgs are often controlled by admins becauses admins tend to observe to moderate rounds and investigate adminhelps/prays. Sometimes you get players ghosting to be a syndie-borg.
*Syndie-borgs can't arm,anchor,or secure the disk. They're more of a tool than an extra person.
*It's a fucking cyborg of course it doesn't need oxygen.

Lets also mention that Syndie borgs often get dunked by an competent crew member,borgs, or even the fucking clown. You can stun them JUST as easily as any other borg, hell usually most Security Borgs at the time Ops make it to the station tend to nab gold from the vault and get a VTEC, have you ever seen a syndie borg fight a VTEC sec borg? I've done it and the end result is a dead, admin-control syndieborg. Stop you whining and learn how to combat them instead of begging them to be removed, atleast we don't see regular sec borgs with their arsenal.

Post by **Fatal** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:19 pm #53746

Good ops teams without borgs simply EMAG all doors to force them open, AI can't do shit

The syndicate borgs are fine, but there should be a hard limit on only allowing one

However, the laser guns on both syndicate cyborgs and hacked security cyborgs need some kind of limit too, as it is now, they have near infinite lasers (especially so the syndicate borgs because they have an awesome power cell)

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:51 pm #53754

I'd prefer if syndicate borgs had a C-20r with regenerating ammo rather than an ebow and laser gun.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:03 pm #53757

100% in agreement that an Operative has to become the borg

While some people are blowing it out of proportion, it is very true that borgs are, more often than not, admins. Because borgs are drawn from the spectator pool, and when is a random person going to happen to spectate a round that just happens to be a Nuclear Emergency round? Not many at all. Flawless AI executions ensue.

As a regular AI player I can say they are what makes operatives so fucking annoying.
You die. Every round. Borgs don't trigger alarms.
You hear the airlock open and FWEOO FWEOO FWEOO RIP
The ONLY JOB of the AI during Nuke is to scream "SYNDICATES" and then die. Every single round, because taking a borg is A CLEARLY DEFINED META.

I'm not sure what needs to change in that regard - I like the idea of a Syndicate Borg having to wrestle for control of systems with the AI, unbolting and unlocking everything the AI puts in their way, rather than being "lolded" with a complete nil chance of failure

(Somewhat related - 90% sure NT cyborgs can interact with the Syndicate Shuttle. Apex hilarity ensues when the Nuke Ops find there is no shuttle left for them.)

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:29 pm #53762

Cecily wrote:(Somewhat related - 90% sure NT cyborgs can interact with the Syndicate Shuttle. Apex hilarity ensues when the Nuke Ops find there is no shuttle left for them.)

Pretty sure the borg got boinked for that.

Post by **lumipharon** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:03 am #53780

Syndie borgs are OP mainly because it's a 6th man. Having extra team members is objectively better then anything else, since the less people you have, the more losing someone hurts, which is fairly significant when a single stun could spell the end for a person.

AI's can keep syndie borgs out if they take out the power to a bolted door (borg would have to wait 2 minutes before trying again, and nothing can stop the AI frop taking out power again.) I don't know about motion alarms, I know that goin to the core via the space entrance won't trip any alarms, but when I went into the foyer area of the sat, it did trip an alarm, so I unno.

It makes sense for the syndie borg to have energy weapons though, it's literally build from captured/stolen NT borgs and retrofitted a bit, and magically growing metal bullets is dumb. (mechs are also dumb because they do this also, but that's another topic).

The borg issue is hilariously highlighted if the ops get 3 borgs. It means they can depart in like 5 minutes, have 8 people, and are all but unstoppable. Literally the only counter to this is hope there aren't enough ghosts.

Syndie borgs and operatives actually have excellent synergy though.
Operatives are vulnerable to conventional stuns/disablers, but are immune to flashs and flashbangs, and (other then headsets) are uneffected by emp's.
Syndie borgs are Vulnerable to flashs, flashbangs and emp's, but are immune to conventional stuns.
This is why a coherent team works really well, since they cover each other's weaknesses.

The ideally solution for me, would be to hard code a limit of one borg for ops, and/or increase the cost a little. I wouldn't want to force an op into a syndie borg, simply because a borg can't do important things like carry a disk, or set the nuke, and getting the disk only to not have anyone able to set it is pretty gay.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 2:42 am #53787

If you want to kill the AI without a borg, just bring the red button and a bomb with you. Significantly cheaper. I did it on my last run.
Go in through the south hallway, blast it, and then unload your stetchkin into it if you still have it. Or whatever. I esworded it because the bomb explosion was big enough it took out all the turrets.

The borgs are required to kill the AI, but its better than being a man down while he's off fuckin' with it.

Somejerk · Post by **Somejerk** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:06 am #53790

"B: Make it so one of your nuke ops members must become the cyborg, sacrificing manpower and the advantages of being an ops in favor of cyborgification."

This doesn't like a bad option. Have it so the person who uses the signaling device or whatever it is become a borg right then and there.

mrpain · Post by **mrpain** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 6:27 am #53804

I'd be fine with making them have to borg an operative and throw him in the body. Having that extra guy is really were the power of the borg comes in.

But I'm against a nerf or an outright removal of them. To my knowledge they dont take much in the way of a beating, and the syndicates have to take along welders and shit to repair them, costing them valuable items slots that could have been used on something more useful, IE more bombs and guns.

Aleph · Post by **Aleph** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 7:47 am #53815

They're vulnerable to being flashed, especially by other borgs.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:22 am #53841

Its not really a question of "how many guys with guns do they have. A syndieborg can be the most robust dude in the world and the ops still (mostly) lose because a borg can't set the bomb up by itself. So if the ops buy 3 borgs and lose all their meatbags they're still SOL. This is even worse if they trade one of their 5 ops for a borg and now they're down a set of hands that can no longer set up the team objective. It sounds nice until you consider that trading primary function for a little more combat robustness is bad. I'd much rather they were just a little more expensive or whatever to compensate for their ability to be spammed and call it a day.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:26 am #53845

Trading your ability to set us up the bomb for being a stuntank murderbot sounds perfectly reasonable and is a reason to not fuck off and murderbone and stay with your teammates though???????

Also if this does happen make sure the syndie borg is law purged so it's essentially the nuke ops' brain in the borg body without any law restrictions.

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:16 am #53856

I dont know. The utility loss in a set of hands is rather minor compared to their obvious advantage. For the borg to be a bad tradeoff you need to run out of people save one survivor, the borg, which is unusual because the borg will do the brunt of the fighting. Meanwhile the advantage is pervasive and shows up in nearly every situation.

A cost increase may be helpful, but I suspect that the syndicate borg is going to be one of those things that is always going to be a first order optimal solution or absolutely not worth it once its cost passes the threshold that cripples the rest of the team. Increasing cost just reduces the toys the rest of the syndicate team can have and concentrates it in one players hands which is generally unexciting and undesirable.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:07 pm #53872

dezzmont wrote:I dont know. The utility loss in a set of hands is rather minor compared to their obvious advantage. For the borg to be a bad tradeoff you need to run out of people save one survivor, the borg, which is unusual because the borg will do the brunt of the fighting. Meanwhile the advantage is pervasive and shows up in nearly every situation.

A cost increase may be helpful, but I suspect that the syndicate borg is going to be one of those things that is always going to be a first order optimal solution or absolutely not worth it once its cost passes the threshold that cripples the rest of the team. Increasing cost just reduces the toys the rest of the syndicate team can have and concentrates it in one players hands which is generally unexciting and undesirable.

When the entire point of the team is to have hands and use those hands to set up a bomb, the value of hands cannot be overstated. Your ability to murder infinite+1 people as a borg does not balanced with that at all.

Calling for a nerf this drastic is overreaching anyway. Nuke teams are literally 5 men vs 30-70 crew. Being able to call in one (very robust) or even two borgs is an asymetrical balance against the overwhelming swarm of prod waving assistants and misc other "heroic" crew. I see no reason to make this arbitrarily harder by making individual losses harsher.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:15 pm #53875

If we are going to do something akin to turning a Nuke Operative into a Syndicate Borg, why not go all out and try something a little different?

The idea of having a button that magiclly turns you into a Cyborg ticks me the wrong way, why don't we spice it up with the idea that you are buying a suit of Syndicate Power Armour that permanently (24 hours) seals you inside it once you go in the suit.

Your essentially a Cyborg for all intents and purposes, but you have a proper IC excuse to go from a human to a "borg" and it would look cool.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:18 pm #53877

Steelpoint wrote:If we are going to do something akin to turning a Nuke Operative into a Syndicate Borg, why not go all out and try something a little different?

The idea of having a button that magiclly turns you into a Cyborg ticks me the wrong way, why don't we spice it up with the idea that you are buying a suit of Syndicate Power Armour that permanently (24 hours) seals you inside it once you go in the suit.

Your essentially a Cyborg for all intents and purposes, but you have a proper IC excuse to go from a human to a "borg" and it would look cool.

Mechanically changing nothing.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:21 pm #53878

Essentially, but it makes it more believable instead of just becoming a Cyborg. But also it allows you to still act as a human, and not essentially enslave yourself with a lawset.

Also I'm imagining a sprite animation (akin to the Cyborg module selection) of the user being surronded in metal armour.

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:33 pm #53881

CEdabridge, I think you are severely overstating the primacy of hands in the nuke team. Yes, they need to set up the bomb, but you are acting like they need to constantly use their hands and have everyone do it, or that rounds where the nuke ops win generally are a last man standing situation. Actually setting up the bomb is a multi-step process and the final step is basically checking if any surviving ops have hands.

One set of hands needs to survive. Trading a set of hands for a vastly increased chance of survival is clearly beneficial. If the borg could murder infinite+1 people then obviously the best choice would be to trade all but one team member for borgs.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 2:32 pm #53891

Really all Mr Hands needs to do is sit his arse in the cockpit whilst their all access deathbots march into the station, butt rape the captain, and drag his corpse back along with the nuke disk to the shuttle.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 4:00 pm #53902

This long into the thread and no one has mentioned the ion rifle, the crew's best defense against syndicate borgs (and mechs). If crew is attempting to take on a borg without it (or flashbangs) they deserve everything they get. The ghost complaint is stupid -- this is how the ghost system works, and frankly most nuke op teams take so long to get geared up that a few people will have inevitably suicided/died.

That said I can foresee a few changes:

- Slightly increase the cost of a syndicate borg -- it is relatively cheap now and that is why it is seen in so many nuke op teams.
- Make syndicate borgs trigger motion alarms in the AI core.
- (more dramatic) Change syndiborgs' opening powers to a sort of sped-up doorjack (like the pAI has, but much faster). Remove their emags.

Post by **Fatal** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 5:26 pm #53915

I'm pretty sure the syndicate borgs DO trigger the motion alarm in the AI core, every time it has been nuke ops and I've been a borg I've seen that trigger, and moved like fuck to the AI core to get vengeance on my now dead AI

The issue is, the motion alarm trigger when the borg ENTERS the core, and the AI can do nothing because once the borg enters the core it simply turns off the AIs APC, and the AI can't even talk before it's dead

I do believe the borgs either need nerfing, or made to be more expensive, as well as having a limit of 1

If you work out the cost of all the modules ON the borg, without including it's extra infinite laser, it really does give quite a lot of stuff for what it costs

As well as OP teams being able to buy multiple in high pop rounds, not that many crew carry ANYTHING that can do anything to a syndicate borg, much less against multiple of them, I would imagine 3 could quite easily murder everyone on the station without even needing to blow up the nuke

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 6:20 pm #53927

I thought I'd came up with a smart counter to borg rushes against the AI core.

If you bolt the doors and turn off your APC's enviro power the airvents and doors will be depowered.
Turns out though that although the borg can open the door it can still unbolt it.

Still, works against borgs that don't have crowbars
Oh wait... syndi borgs have crowbars!

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 6:49 pm #53932

Or the borg could just fuck up the access turrets and let in a flu cop to C4 the door.

Incomptinence · Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:54 pm

I think the real issue is the insistence borgs have all access all the time. Make the AI sat doors inaccessible to the syndicate cyborg and vice versa NT borgs for the shuttle. Borg is still ridic robust but doesn't creep down the AI's ass almost totally unannounced. Sure ops can assist with emags to similar effect but that's just emags for you. C4 is pretty fair in that it makes an explosion sound the AI can hear coming.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:32 pm #54031

Put motion alarms on the space entrances, and make the Syndiborg trigger motion alarms. (Yes, they trigger the CORE motion alarm - Not the antechamber, which is the important "oh fuck somebody is trying to get in" alarm)

Now I have about 20 seconds of red fucking alert to hopefully depower the doors fast enough t-- Wait, they have a crowbar, silly fucking me.

Post by **lumipharon** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:52 pm #54041

borgs can't lift bolts of depowered airlocks.

But the major issue of turning ops into borgs is that borgs don't have hands, and don't have PINPOINTERS.
So borgs can't find the disk on their own, they can't strip people anymore so even if they figure out where the disk is, the borg can only drag the corpse around. I have lost more then one op round as a syndie borg, where I've got the disk as the borg, but all the ops are missing/dead.

The thing with killing the AI, is that ops do it because the AI is the SINGLE MOST POWERFUL FORCE THAT OPPOSES THEM. The AI can literally bolt and depower every door the ops come to, which cannot be opened by emag or borg. Ops have only so many explosives, and even rooms that can be broken into via windows slows them the fuck down.

A bad/inexperienced AI will barely effect ops, an experienced AI can utterly shut them down.

I don't think the combat robustness of the syndie borg is the issue to be honest, since flashbangs and the ion rifle are both AOE, and are usually both a death sentence for the borg, and when fighting other borgs it's got two options:
A:Try kite the borg and laser it
B: Try flash it first
Neither option is super reliable, and that's not factoring other crew into it.

So ultimately the issue I think is that the AI is massively strong against ops to the point it can't be ignored (powersink can sort of let you ignore it, but that has a time limit on it), and the borg is the most reliable way to remove it, and more importantly can often do so without alerting the crew.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:13 am #54046

lumipharon wrote:(powersink can sort of let you ignore it, but that has a time limit on it)

Sort of unrelated but more operatives should use sinks. Darkness is such a potent ally, at the early stages of the game you will the only ones with night vision and everyone else is forced to scavenge a crowbar and use their PDA light to get anywhere.

...Operatives start with crowbars and NVGs for a reason, y'know.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:31 am #54053

lumipharon wrote: But the major issue of turning ops into borgs is that borgs don't have hands, and don't have PINPOINTERS.

I could swear the last time I played syndieborg I had a pinpointer.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Dec 29, 2014 1:21 am #54060

Cecily wrote:
lumipharon wrote:(powersink can sort of let you ignore it, but that has a time limit on it)
Sort of unrelated but more operatives should use sinks. Darkness is such a potent ally, at the early stages of the game you will the only ones with night vision and everyone else is forced to scavenge a crowbar and use their PDA light to get anywhere.

...Operatives start with crowbars and NVGs for a reason, y'know.

Also related to that, if emp's effected electric lights (flashlight/pda's), blackops would be 10/10.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Mon Dec 29, 2014 1:25 am #54062

bandit wrote:This long into the thread and no one has mentioned the ion rifle, the crew's best defense against syndicate borgs (and mechs). If crew is attempting to take on a borg without it (or flashbangs) they deserve everything they get. The ghost complaint is stupid -- this is how the ghost system works, and frankly most nuke op teams take so long to get geared up that a few people will have inevitably suicided/died.

That said I can foresee a few changes:

- Slightly increase the cost of a syndicate borg -- it is relatively cheap now and that is why it is seen in so many nuke op teams.
- Make syndicate borgs trigger motion alarms in the AI core.
- (more dramatic) Change syndiborgs' opening powers to a sort of sped-up doorjack (like the pAI has, but much faster). Remove their emags.

Removing their emags invalidates the flash/crowbar/emag combo that robust syndieborgs can employ against the 1-4 station borgs bearing down on the ops. (Especially since the thing that fucks nukes hardest is a secborg.)

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Dec 29, 2014 2:22 am #54079

You realise borgs can't even emag doors open right? it defaults to their all access opening of them instead.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Mon Dec 29, 2014 4:14 am #54100

[quote="lumipharon"]You realise borgs can't even emag doors open right? it defaults to their all access opening of them instead.[/quote
If they do have an emag, and stop right in front of the door, they should be able to click on it with the emag active

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Dec 29, 2014 10:47 am #54129

And it just opens the door. Try it sometime, they physically cannot emag airlocks, it's a known issue. AFAIK they can't even emag bolted doors, it's the borg shit taking priority over the item.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Mon Dec 29, 2014 10:29 pm #54254

Steelpoint wrote:If we are going to do something akin to turning a Nuke Operative into a Syndicate Borg, why not go all out and try something a little different?

The idea of having a button that magiclly turns you into a Cyborg ticks me the wrong way, why don't we spice it up with the idea that you are buying a suit of Syndicate Power Armour that permanently (24 hours) seals you inside it once you go in the suit.

Your essentially a Cyborg for all intents and purposes, but you have a proper IC excuse to go from a human to a "borg" and it would look cool.

Syndicate nanites

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:36 pm #56243

Roburger?

Whoisthere · Post by **Whoisthere** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:43 pm #58347

So basically syndicate cyborgs are even more op now with that grenade launcher that shoots minibombs that explode on contact.
True, you only have 6 bombs (can they be recharged?) but basically syndicate borgs now have an AoE stun that also damages, sets on fire and deafens. Oh, and wrecks the station.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:45 pm #58348

Meanwhile Security better hope they have less than 100 ping when they are trying to use a stun baton against them, or a flash.

Whoisthere · Post by **Whoisthere** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:27 pm #58358

>stun baton
wait what

Snakebutt · Post by **Snakebutt** » Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:15 am #58841

Ion. Rifles. They one shot borgs, armory starts with one and R&D can make more if given shotguns (which should be done anyways). They also sodomize mauraders and I think overload lasers.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:44 am #58860

Ion rifles create an EMP on impact, they overload headsets, drain energy guns and fuck with electronics.

So...yeah.