Stun Overhaul Feedback

[Steelpoint]

This thread is intended for my to give my own personal feedback, as well as other people's feedback, on the recent stun changes made to the game. I'll discuss a overview of the changes, how most common firearms have been changed from my own usage of them, and a general personal opinion.

For reference, here is the PR that implemented the changes: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/6293

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Some of the more notable changes to ranged stun weaponry include the small neft in stun time's for weapons. By default stuns would stun a target for 10 seconds, however ranged stuns (From Disable and Stun shots) now only stun for 8 seconds. Not a big difference but enough to warrant using either a stun baton or double tapping before applying hand cuffs.

I should stress that I think this change is more of a nerf to Nuclear Operatives than to Nanotrasen Security. In fact these changes have very little impact on Security but do create a big change for the Nuke Ops, which I will discuss below.

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Nanotrasen Weapons
Taser (Now Advance Taser)
5 Stun Shots
10 Disable Shots

No significant change here aside from the addition of a disable setting. The disable setting is very ineffective however as you only get 10 shots, meaning only three potential stuns. Little reason to use the disable setting outside of shooting through glass.

I would suggest buffing the disable shots so you can fire 15 disable shots, preferable 20. This would bring it on par, or even exceed, the amount of shots you can make with the taser. Than and reducing the taser capacity to four shots would make using the disable setting more viable.

Energy Gun
20 Disable Shots
10 Laser Shots

Significant nerf to the energy gun, which translates as a nerf mainly to the Captain and Head of Personal. The Head of Security is somewhat insulated from this nerf due to his access to advance tasers and other security equipment. You can only possible stun 6 people with the energy gun, now the energy gun is a fall back weapon to use after you've exhausted your advance taser.

I would suggest giving the energy gun the ability to also use a stun setting, even if such a setting drew a lot of power (say only five shots). So your still incentivised to use the disable shots and keep the stun shots for guaranteed hits. Right now though your just better of getting another advance taser over the energy gun, or taking the laser gun if you want to kill people.

Riot Shotgun
Holds 8 Shells

Utterly worthless as a stun weapon. However there is a PR that is up to buff stun slugs. Until that goes through however your better of getting buckshot shells instead of stun/beanbag shells.

Syndicate Weapons
C20r SMG
20 round magazine

Worthless, utterly worthless. It takes two shots to stun a target. However the C90gl crits a target in three shots AND has a larger magazine AND a grenade launcher. The only positive about the C20r is that its two telecrystals cheaper than the C90. There's no reason to buy a C20r over the C90gl at this stage.

Either the C20 needs to stun in one shot, or it needs to be made significantly cheaper (8 to 10 telecrystals).

C90gl Assault Rifle
30 round magazine
1 shot grenade launcher

As noted above, there is no reason to not get this weapon. This weapon does not stun however so it did not suffer a change.

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The changes made are not as significant as I was expecting as a security player. Disable is simply not viable enough to use over a Tase shot at this stage, you get too few disable shots and any weapon that exclusively uses disable shots (egun) are ineffective in comparison to a adv taser. I think the most affected players from this change are the Captain, Head of Personal and the Nuke Ops.

[bandit]

The detective's revolver is now essentially a capgun.

[DemonFiren]

I still believe disabler shots should be hitscan.

[danno]

oh no fucking wonder that guy didn't go down after I put 3 beanbags into him
who would DO this

[Saegrimr]

oh no fucking wonder that guy didn't go down after I put 3 beanbags into him
who would DO this

Doesn't this mean the bartender's shotgun is the most useless gun in the game?

I haven't gotten to try it out much.

[danno]

Unless you're shooting someone who is on the brink of death, yes. it's worthless.

[Steelpoint]

I'm not one to conjecture, however I think that the reason this stun overhaul was not well tested with all weapons was due to the sudden creation of a alternative stun overhaul, thus forcing this stun overhaul to be put up far earlier than it should have.

[Scones]

Quick thoughts on the Energy Gun, in the two back-to-back rounds of Nuclear Emergency I played with it (I'll revise this when I get more time to play, been out of town)

The changes to the stun setting, or rather its replacement in the form of the disable setting is... Iffy, to say the least. Instead of stun and then lethal, I reached a point where the disable function felt so shitty I just left the gun on lethal.
IN EMERGENCY SITUATIONS where quick disabling is paramount to your survival, it is totally fucking useless. HoPcurity and vigilante Captains are just going to start harmlasering people into crit because of how lame disable can be.

[RG4]

Of course this was done by Pap, anyway I remember the station was apparently running a test of sorts to see which the players would prefer, IIRC I only saw one game where security had disablers and the other 99% of the time it unchanged. So why the hell would this even be merged then if literally there have zero player complaints about the normal stun system.

[danno]

IN EMERGENCY SITUATIONS where quick disabling is paramount to your survival, it is totally fucking useless. HoPcurity and vigilante Captains are just going to start harmlasering people into crit because of how lame disable can be.

I agree. I think admins are going to start seeing a lot more "I likely would have died if I didn't laser him" discussions popping up because of this. The disabler function is laughable in any situation above petty theft or clown antics.

[dezzmont]

I'm not one to conjecture, however I think that the reason this stun overhaul was not well tested with all weapons was due to the sudden creation of a alternative stun overhaul, thus forcing this stun overhaul to be put up far earlier than it should have.

That wouldn't force you to introduce it earlier than you should, an alternative treatment is in fact a standard in design.

Unless you are implying that it was put in because someone wanted it to be their system so bad they would skip testing to make it happen, which would be transparently awful and shouldn't be glossed over. I don't think is the case however.

About the actual change:

Distruptors are actually, in my opinion, better than regular stuns. While it looks like their stun potential is lower, it sort of is higher if you are using the standard trishot

Spoiler:

If you are not in the know most experienced sec players aim past their target rather than directly at them, and fire in a manner to create essentially a 3 tile wide stun pattern that is hard to dodge in a standard hallway. This tactic was probably directly why stun ranges were reduced which is the most positive aspect of the change as it allows the pattern to still be used without making it the finger of god

you take someone out with 4 distruptor shots by firing the tri-shot and then finishing him off with a direct hit, for 40% ammo. Meanwhie 3 taser shots are 60% of your ammo. Even if time was of the essence firing a tri-pattern twice for the same efficiency as a taser at a slight reduction in speed. That said in any situation where someone is shooting back its awful. It also encourages people to spam ranged disables and suns more, not less, which goes directly against the intent of this change.

The new stun times are what really grinds my gears. The intent was clearly to make it harder for security to detain people they beat without double tapping or hitting someone multiple times. It makes yakety saxing away from the sec team after they take you out in all but the most simple of situations much easier, which sucks. Sec is designed to be the brute force hammer, and sec converging on you should be a nearly guarenteed bad end. I think this may be a side effect of distruptors having two seperate timers, but there is hardly enough time to land a pull-cuff combo even when devoting all your attention to someone. If the situation is remotely complicated, like a 3v5 fight, sec essentially can't secure people, which is a huge problem.

Non-security stuns need a huge buff. The change seems to have had the intention of making non-security stuns into something that doesn't instantly end a fight, but the combat system is stun based and really suffers for their reduction in power. Getting shot by anything should make you regret every decision you made up to that point, not tickle.

[Alex Crimson]

Stun combat was boring as fuck. One shot and you win? Thats bullshit and deserved to be changed. Whilst i think the Disabler should stun in 3 shots rather than 4(was that changed? i dont know), im glad to see stuns nerfed. Now maybe you guys can put some thought into your firefights that isnt shooting someone with a taser=instawin.

The change may need balancing, but that can be done by providing good feedback and you know, being polite rather than "dis sux omg paprika". I believe there are already some bug/balance fixes in a PR?

[dezzmont]

Stun combat wasn't actually as boring as people think it was, and boiled down to more than "One shot=win." Furthermore, one hit wins are not actually a bad design decision, they just need to be designed around, which SS13 did.

A lot of this "Boring one hit" nonsense is more about people expecting overt lone action to be effective or desirable. The security team was designed to be less of a player faction and more of a mechanic, sort of like guards having ridiculously powerful guns in stealth games. You dance around in the open and allow them to converge on you? Sucks to be you, you deserve what you got, and decisions were made before a shot was fired.

Without any way to prevent a target from escaping firefights in ss13 are not just not smart, but don't happen. Chases are actually pretty hard to pull off without having an annoying amount of hallway doors lying about. With instant stuns you have an interesting mechanic where antagonists and criminals are highly encouraged to evade the police, hide, and skirmish so as not to allow the station to come down hard on them.

I was going to say that no one is really starting too much drama against paprika, but holy shit stop causing drama against paprika. Unless the person making the change is directly relevant previous behavior isn't relevant.

[Alex Crimson]

It was a bad design. Pretty much every single fightfight resulted in one guy getting shot with a taser, then lasered to death. Sec had access to Tasers and Energy Guns that could unleash a hail of taser shots, and if a single one of those hit you, you were done for unless you have a shield or those tator implants.

Now you actually have to consider other options in a fight. You could try using the taser setting, but it has a very limited charge and range, so you better hit them. You can use the Disabler, which requires 4 shots(i think? It really should be 3) and each shot slows the target down. Then anyone with an energy gun can resort to lethal laser shots in dangerous situations like nuke ops or riots(rev/cult). That isnt even including pepperspray or flashbangs.

I like the change. No more Tasers being the end all solution to pretty much every fight.

[dezzmont]

Tasers being the end all solution for a fight was a bit annoying, but sec absolutely roflstomping you was intended design. You are not supposed to be able to outfight them and during patches where stun dodging was a thing it was hillariously awful.

You need to understand how absolutely terrible fights are in SS13 without stuns. The game is designed for most of the fight to be over before it actually starts.

The combat system is still stun focused, but the range of viable weapons has shrunk. Projectiles basically don't work, and they were already pretty bad. You still need to immobilize your target to win a fight, as damage hasn't hit bay-tier where lasers will instantly anihilate their target, and that would be worse and less tactical than stun combat. Stun combat is all about stacking the deck before and after combat, but lethal combat would actually end your struggle the second you are hit.

[Alex Crimson]

Sec can still outgun any traitor. I believe Ebows were nerfed along with all other guns, although i have not tested them yet. Sec gets armor, one of the few weapons with an actual taser setting, flashbangs and riot shields. They are still the iron fist of the law. Fightfights are just longer and have multiple options now rather than just tase first harmbaton later.

Also i went ahead and found the PRs Paprika put up after the initial stun nerf...

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/6608 - This one changes Disablers. They now only require 3 shots to down someone rather than 4.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/6612 - No idea what this one does. I aint no coder.

Paprika is accepting feedback and bug reports, so id say we see how things go. i think it will be a positive change in the end, once the bugs are worked out.

[Incomptinence]

Aaaaand the most vocal supporter is dead set that security only stun to kill.

[NikNakFlak]

I frankly hate how e-guns now have disabler shots instead of stuns. Quite frankly, they are useless now. Useless. One round as a traitor, the HoS was on my trail, and not only did I dodge his disabler shots easily, even when one hit me it didn't do a whole lot and shortly afterward he got wrecked when his gun ran out. Same goes for nuke ops. I watched as nukey mowed down the captain, hop, and HoS in rapid succession because their e-guns were grade A useless. I support a revert or change.

[Scones]

Energy guns are horrible. The Captain & HoP have them to pacify threats they come across - They can no longer do this with removal of the stun setting.

As Danno said, admins had better prepare for an influx of 'But it would've been WORSE if I hadn't harmlasered him into crit'

Somewhat related but I'm not sure: Advanced Energy Guns still have the stun function. Queqe HoS abusing his departmental access the instant he hears they've been researched.

[Alex Crimson]

One shot from a Disabler doesnt do much. You need to hit them twice to really slow them down.

Energy Gun Laser - 10
Energy Gun Disabler - 20

Advanced Taser stun - 5
Advanced Taser Disabler - 10

Disabler(the one from the cargo crate) - 20

If anyone was wondering how many shots you get with each gun. No idea how many shots you would get with the Advanced Energy Gun before it needs to recharge.

[Fatal]

Another half done change where half the stuff is broken? Sounds like fun

In all honesty, I haven't played the new stun overhaul, but making beanbag shells and the .38 rounds for the detective worthless seems like a pretty poor change to me

Same with energy guns really, the Captain, HoP, and HoS, have good weapons for a reason, don't break those suckers

Otherwise the change seems nice, but really, half done

[Alex Crimson]

They are not "worthless". They are bugged. Stun slugs, Beanbag slugs and the Detectives revolver do no stamina damage at all. Its probably a bug. Atleast in the version of the server im running right now. Maybe a fix has been merged since i last downloaded the files.

[paprika]

I've taken a lot of feedback into account here and will be adjusting as necessary. E-guns won't be getting their stun function back, though, the days of Hopcurity and Capcurity are long dead. That doesn't mean nerfing disabler beams was a good idea, and they've subsequently been buffed to be 3-shot weaken instead of 4-shot (they previously did 99 stamina damage in 3 shots, but now they'll do 108 to account for people's constant stamina damage regeneration).

On the issue of projectile weapons: the idea behind giving projectile weapons stamina damage instead of just making them stun like electrodes do is so that hitting people with bullets slows them down a lot, rather than just outright stunning them. Currently, the only ranged weapon that can instastun is a taser, which are much more limited now since they don't spawn in officer lockers. However, I was the one who added the bulldog shotguns as a replacement for the e-guns ops used to get to shift them to a more ballistic style of gameplay, relying more on buying extra ammo and coming prepared than hunting for rechargers to recharge your guns, which should be security's deal. I realize that ops rely a lot on the shotguns as crowd-control, and they'll be buffed.

Sorry about the issue of ballistic projectiles not doing stamina damage initially, it was a completely new system to implement that I've never done before and I did it improperly, I had to sort of rush the PR out to compete with ergovisavi's. That's not a perfect excuse, and every time game-breaking issues like this appear on the server as the result of me I do immediately work on fixing them. Your patience is appreciated, and so is your feedback here, as this is the first real overhaul to anything critical to the game I've done.

Contrary to popular belief I'm not actually trying to kill /tg/ (at least not with these changes :V), simply rework ranged stuns so that they're more limited for officers who actually rely on them to arrest people efficiently. In every other instance, they're bullshit "gg no re you're stunned I win" which nobody likes unless they're the person holding the gun.

Things I will do after more testing:
Buff stamina damage of a lot of ranged projectiles (especially the c20r's)
Lower shot cost of disabler beams / Increase stamina damage of disabler beams (?)

Disablers have been in the game for a long time, however they've been pushed in the background and people are unaware of how they work, I think.

Currently disabler beams do 36 damage. The higher your stamina damage, the slower your movement. Once you reach 100 stamina damage, you get stunned as if you were hit by an electrode. If you do 50 damage and then 50 stamina damage, it will also knock someone over. It's very advantageous to shoot a few lethal rounds into someone before disabling them if you use an e-gun.

[Incomptinence]

Really disablers should deal close to 49 stamina damage if you have a three shot quoata and want being in tip top shape to be important.

[Scones]

-snip-

Lower the shot cost of disabler beams, especially for Energy Guns. Projectiles are still iffy just as a fact of the game and it gives the wielder a lot more leeway when he has to worry less about missing with a weapon that you need to hit somebody several times with. Again, I have to stress that I personally only got to test these changes in a pair of nuke op rounds before leaving for a bit, so my view might be a little biased in the form of concerns about the firefight potential as opposed to the simple everyday Security potential.

The intents behind the change were good, though, and I'm curious to see how it goes. Feels to me like I'll end up shooting people with disablers a few times before just going in for a finish with the Baton.

Coderbus is truly king, they break all the stun weapons when no one complained about them in the first place, while at the same time ignoring the overpowered blobbernauts, syndicate cyborgs, and broken security headsets that dont even work right. 10/10 pap truly hates the station.

Can you please stop shitposting about how much you hate the coders/admins? Seriously, you show up in every fucking thread to spew your stupid shit while contributing nothing to discussions, and I'm getting pretty fucking sick of it

[oranges]

Coderbus is truly king, they break all the stun weapons when no one complained about them in the first place, while at the same time ignoring the overpowered blobbernauts, syndicate cyborgs, and broken security headsets that dont even work right. 10/10 pap truly hates the station.

I'm looking foward to your pull fixing these issues. Since they are so important to you I'm sure you will be working day and night to fix them.

[Bluespace]

I think tasers are broken.
I shot sideways at someone standing still about 4 times and only on the fourth shot did it not fizzle out immediately one square in front of me.

[paprika]

Tasers were recently given a range nerf, as in electrodes will only travel 7 tiles before fizzling out. 7 tiles is the amount of on-screen range, basically, so you can't get shot off-screen by taser electrodes which is maximum bullshit. I think what you're experiencing is a bug though, I'll do some more extensive testing with the range and on_range() procs to make sure they're fizzling at the proper range.

I'm gonna test disablers again. The idea is that you don't get stunned by disablers as easily if you're at 100% health, which was the case before, it took 4 shots instead of 3 at 100% health. 49 damage would mean a 2-hit disable at anything but 99% or above health, which would also be acceptable so that disablers are a little better. However, keep in mind disabler beams are limitless range like laser beams now, and also pass through windows and grilles.

[NikNakFlak]

I still think that energy guns should get the stun function back and I stand by that statement. I've really just always hated disablers and everything about them. I hate the fact that they put you into "fake crit". It scares the hell out of me. Either way, I'm willing to see how this goes before I go full out "HATE THIS PAPRIKA EVIL REVERT REVERT SHIT SHIT SHIT" mode. What paprika said about a new system and all the kinks and things to work out to balance it may make it better in the long run. For now, security just has to do their best and nuke ops will...well, fluke less?

[Malkevin]

I've taken a lot of feedback into account here and will be adjusting as necessary. E-guns won't be getting their stun function back, though, the days of Hopcurity and Capcurity are long dead. That doesn't mean nerfing disabler beams was a good idea, and they've subsequently been buffed to be 3-shot weaken instead of 4-shot (they previously did 99 stamina damage in 3 shots, but now they'll do 108 to account for people's constant stamina damage regeneration).

On the issue of projectile weapons: the idea behind giving projectile weapons stamina damage instead of just making them stun like electrodes do is so that hitting people with bullets slows them down a lot, rather than just outright stunning them. Currently, the only ranged weapon that can instastun is a taser, which are much more limited now since they don't spawn in officer lockers. However, I was the one who added the bulldog shotguns as a replacement for the e-guns ops used to get to shift them to a more ballistic style of gameplay, relying more on buying extra ammo and coming prepared than hunting for rechargers to recharge your guns, which should be security's deal. I realize that ops rely a lot on the shotguns as crowd-control, and they'll be buffed.

Sorry about the issue of ballistic projectiles not doing stamina damage initially, it was a completely new system to implement that I've never done before and I did it improperly, I had to sort of rush the PR out to compete with ergovisavi's. That's not a perfect excuse, and every time game-breaking issues like this appear on the server as the result of me I do immediately work on fixing them. Your patience is appreciated, and so is your feedback here, as this is the first real overhaul to anything critical to the game I've done.

Contrary to popular belief I'm not actually trying to kill /tg/ (at least not with these changes :V), simply rework ranged stuns so that they're more limited for officers who actually rely on them to arrest people efficiently. In every other instance, they're bullshit "gg no re you're stunned I win" which nobody likes unless they're the person holding the gun.

Things I will do after more testing:
Buff stamina damage of a lot of ranged projectiles (especially the c20r's)
Lower shot cost of disabler beams / Increase stamina damage of disabler beams (?)

Disablers have been in the game for a long time, however they've been pushed in the background and people are unaware of how they work, I think.

Currently disabler beams do 36 damage. The higher your stamina damage, the slower your movement. Once you reach 100 stamina damage, you get stunned as if you were hit by an electrode. If you do 50 damage and then 50 stamina damage, it will also knock someone over. It's very advantageous to shoot a few lethal rounds into someone before disabling them if you use an e-gun.

*CLAP* *CLAP*
Why can't you post like this all the time?

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Not managed to play with the changes yet, but I'll just say this for the "I'll have to laser people more often as HoP/Captain" crowd:
GOOD!

If you're having to resort to your sidearm it should be a matter of self defence, like if some asshat is breaking into your office or is assaulting you, in which case you're perfectly valid in shooting them in the face with laser fire.
For far too long pillocks have been fucking with heads and breaking into their offices for phat lewts because they've known the worst that will happen is a short brig sentence, the risk of death might actually discourage this.

So I'd be glad if lasers to the face became the defacto standard and the HoPs/Captains stopped acting like Sec.

So the Egun change shouldn't really change much with regards to Captains and HoPs, what it'll most effect though is HoSes.
Them losing instant stuns without fumbling around with their equipment is probably going to be a pain in the arse.


Also the number of disabler shots should be balanced with how effective a taser is.
Taser is a 1 shot 10 seconds stun.
Disabler is a 3 shot 10 second stun
So from that you should get three times more disabler shots out of your gun as taser shots.
I.E. the egun should be able to fire 30 disabler shots.

Yeah shooting through windows is an advantage, but the amount of times that'll come into use is incredibly small compared to the advantage of being able to get a quick 1 hit KD cheapshot to take someone down before they can react.

[Steelpoint]

After reading I think some people might be confused, so allow me to better clarify.

Advance Tasers can both use Disable and Stun functions. Stuns are still a one hit stun, the only difference is that they have a range of 7 tiles.

Edit: There's little you can do to buff the C20r aside from either reducing its cost to make it a viable, cheaper, alternative or to make it a one shot stun.

[danno]

*CLAP* *CLAP*
Why can't you post like this all the time?

^ seriously holy shit paprika, you're so much better like this

[Steelpoint]

^ seriously holy shit paprika, you're so much better like this

Its not that he can't act like this, its just that once he gets in a argument suddenly the house of cards folds in.

Either way, I'll give the benefit of the doubt to paprika so long as he makes meaningful and good revisions to his change.

[Spacemanspark]

Ahahahaha This is hilarious.
Make it so the stun time on the disabler setting is longer when they drop.

[paprika]

The only real issue with captains and HoPs having more of a reason to shoot people in the face with lasers is that most AI players will get really butthurt about it, when are we making paladin or corporate the roundstart lawset?

[Steelpoint]

One problem that has already been noted is that this change means we will see far more HoP's and Captains laser people to death. While this is not a bad thing as it makes trying to raid the Captains Office more life threatening, it will likely tick off a bunch of admins in game.

[Scones]

The only real issue with captains and HoPs having more of a reason to shoot people in the face with lasers is that most AI players will get really butthurt about it, when are we making paladin or corporate the roundstart lawset?

Regular AI player would like to remind you that leaving an AI on Asimov all round is a hate crime against silicons

We need a separate discussion thread to compile shit on this because it's been talked about to some extent in the Policy Discussion subforum

I for one support random AI lawset from a pool of the lawsets on the left side of the upload, to ensure it's not a monotonous same-old-same-old if the command staff decide to never touch the Upload

[paprika]

From what I recall most admins are of the opinion that if you fuck with the heads of staff you deserve what you get, within grief reason. The captain is armed, and it's like attacking the HoS, you deserve it if you're the type of person to ban bait people by egging them on to shoot you with lasers.

[dezzmont]

I am actually liking the update a lot for the average use of stuns I partake in, which is taking down scumbag trolls mostly, the numbers just needed some tweaking.

Also, after the results of these changes are accounted for, is it possible to make it so fatigue damage regenerates at different rates based on your total fatigue? It may add some more depth to the system to play around with that, making it so that recovering from being slowed takes a bit longer to make them feel a lot more like the pseudo damage they are, while also making it so you can't just dump fatigue into someone after stunning them by rapidly speeding up regeneration over a threshold.

[Incomptinence]

How about also tying hunger into the stamina damage system? I mean a starving guy really shouldn't have the stamina to just shrug off this stuff. Maybe a threshold penalty or bonus depending.

[paprika]

Yeah, I'll look into hunger affecting how fast your stamina regenerates, should be fairly simple.

[Steelpoint]

After some more play time, I think both the Energy Gun and the Taser need a Disable ammo count increase.

You simply don't get enough shots with either gun, I feel like I can barely take down one target with a single gun. While it does take three shots to stun, however most targets are going to be dodging your shots.

[Pybro]

Do disablers take down hulks?

I was recently told (by my AI when I was a secborg) that disablers can take down hulks.

Is this true?

[Steelpoint]

Do disablers take down hulks?

I was recently told (by my AI when I was a secborg) that disablers can take down hulks.

Is this true?

I tested and this is false. Hulks don't seem to react to disable shots.

[Steelpoint]

So I'm doing some theory crafting, and here's what I want to present.

Advance Taser

• Reduce Stun ammo count from 5 to 4
• Increase Disable ammo count from 10 to 20

Energy Gun

• Increase Disable ammo count from 10 to 30.

C20r SMG
Either

• Increase Stamina damage to knock a unarmourd target down in one shot

Or

• Decrease weapon Telecrystal cost from 16 to around 8.

Detective's Revolver/Riot Shotguns

• Simply buff both weapons and their ammo's to deal signifcant stamina damage. A point blank shot from a Riot Shotgun should stun a target outright. The Det's Revolver is a cap gun as it stands.

Additional Suggestions

• Give the Head of Security a hybrid Energy Gun capable of firing Stun, Disable and Lethal rounds.
  This is primarily due to the fact that the Energy Gun nerf has significantly scaled back the power of the HoS, now HoS players often take several Tasers from the armoury to compensate.
  Ammo counts for this Advance Energy Gun should be: Laser 10, Stun 10, Disable 30.
• Change the blue "disable" colour of the Energy Gun to reflect the proper disable colour the Advance Taser uses.
• If concerned over the still heavy prevalence of using Stun shots, reduce Stun shots maximum range from 7 to 5 tiles.

[Trognar]

As someone who mostly plays security I am a little iffy on this issue. Mostly because of the way yakkity saxxing works and the complete unreliability of having to hit someone multiple times in order to down them. While I don't think this is a terrible change I still feel as it was rushed, as expressed by others in this thread. In my opinion there are two things that need to be done to the disablers in order to make them viable and to stop security officers from round start seeking out a better/reliable alternative(tasers).

One change could be making disablers have far greater ammo, considering the way stamina regen works and good ol' yakkity saxxing, you could possibly end up using your entire cell on a single person. Increasing the ammo count would more than enough compensate for this.

The other change would be changing the amount of decrease in movement, ie. the person affected by stamina damage moves even slower on the first and second hit. This would be my prefered change instead of just making disablers have even more ammo, which would cut back on newer sec players and their beloved spray and pray you generally see lately.

Also while we are on a subject that affects security to some degree, for the love of everything Nanotrasen someone please add helmets to security lockers again.

[Steelpoint]

Also Paprika.

If you do ever decide to go with my HoS gun suggestion, these sprites should work well. (Also made by the same guy)

[rockpecker]

After some more play time, I think both the Energy Gun and the Taser need a Disable ammo count increase.

You simply don't get enough shots with either gun, I feel like I can barely take down one target with a single gun. While it does take three shots to stun, however most targets are going to be dodging your shots.

Exactly the problem that was discussed on the other thread, i.e. you can't hit a moving target reliably enough to land three shots on them.

Security needs a hard stun.

[paprika]

The taser has the same ammo as it's always had, 5 shots

[Alex Crimson]

Two shots will slow them down a lot. The 3rd shot shouldnt be that hard to land when they are moving at walking speed. They even remain slow once they get back up, until their stamina regens a fair bit.