DIRTSTATION 2015

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:05 pm #55855

Bottom post of the previous page:

That is actually super badass and something I didn't know. I rarely look at my PDA, but having droids run about at my command sounds awesome. I don't think it fixes the fundemental problems with dirt code but it makes isolated spills easier to clean up. You could sic some droids on the area where a fight took place to take care of patches of blood while you handle the trail for example. I often blew metal foam for that.

Jalleo · Post by **Jalleo** » Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:12 pm #55856

Info about it here and in coding section:https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/4974

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:28 pm #55860

Move the dirt up to 300 times walking over a tile and I'll be happy. I fucking hate this change. The entire station being covered in dirt in every fucking workway hallway is unbearable. No Janitor could clean the station. I mean look at science xenobio has two huge ass trails then it gos int oscience hallway to the research lab and then out the door. I can only imagine the fucking prison.

peoplearestrange · Mon Jan 05, 2015 3:04 pm

Even the monkies make too much dirt... and that's just two of them.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Mon Jan 05, 2015 3:19 pm #55894

peoplearestrange wrote:

Even the monkies make too much dirt... and that's just two of them.

4

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:35 pm #55908

I joined a round last night where chemistry looked like it was cult floors, no joke.

This change needs to go. Dirt happens in everyday life on earth because it gets tracked in from outside. On a controlled environment like a space station, the only places dirt should be coming from would be the public gardens and the asteroid.

peoplearestrange · Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:57 pm

Incidentaly, what happened to the foot prints you could leave by walking through blood spills and the like?

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:03 pm #55915

This change wouldn't be so bad if cleaning didn't take a fuckton of time. Even soap got nerfed so it takes an annoying amount of time. Spray bottles are tolerable but constantly need refilling at chemistry.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:03 pm #55952

Creating a brand new issue and then claiming something else entirely has been broken all along before the new issue "and this just proves it" is fucking retarded.

"Guys Chemistry can now make hulk pills and instantly revive dead people, why is Genetics so broken and unable to keep up? Genetics clearly has been broken 5ever and needs to be changed/removed." (In recent coderbus agenda, likely removed.)

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:51 pm #55977

Saegrimr wrote:Creating a brand new issue and then claiming something else entirely has been broken all along before the new issue "and this just proves it" is fucking retarded.

"Guys Chemistry can now make hulk pills and instantly revive dead people, why is Genetics so broken and unable to keep up? Genetics clearly has been broken 5ever and needs to be changed/removed." (In recent coderbus agenda, likely removed.)

Thank you for saying in two senteces what I took 4 paragraphs to say.

That is exactly the idea. You can't judge something you break if what you used to break it was already broken or so ridculously overtuned that no reasonable person could expect the system to not break.

Bombadil wrote:Move the dirt up to 300 times walking over a tile and I'll be happy. I fucking hate this change. The entire station being covered in dirt in every fucking workway hallway is unbearable. No Janitor could clean the station. I mean look at science xenobio has two huge ass trails then it gos int oscience hallway to the research lab and then out the door. I can only imagine the fucking prison.

A 1 in 300 chance means that on an average 60 population round where the average person moves 1 tile a second, you are generating 1 dirt every 6 seconds on the station somewhere. That is still a rather high rate of dirt and it is going to generally be happening in areas the janitor lacks access to and in a non-centralized area.

soulgamer · Post by **soulgamer** » Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:06 pm #56006

To be fair I was able to keep the entire station fairly clean as a janitor borg. The only problem is when you stop to charge its an uphill battle to get back in control.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:31 am #56088

When I have to deleted 2000 dirt piles every ten minutes at high pop there is a problem. It looks like shit, clutters anything on a dirty tile and demonstrates an inherently problematic coder policy of having an idea of something to change and doing it. It seems that some people just think of A THING and merge it because they thought of it and made it and that's it. Can we get some thought behind changes because I find the fact this has been defended in any way ludicrous.

I'm literally under the impression that this is some kind of satire because I can't quite comprehend why some of these things are being said or happening. It's absurd.

No dirt is not a big deal, but that's not an excuse to not fix things. Some thought about the actual necissity of these changes needs to be made.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:57 am #56101

This is a serious overreaction about dirt though, really

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:36 am #56146

paprika wrote:This is a serious overreaction about dirt though, really

The reason this is different is...

Stickymayhem wrote:When I have to deleted 2000 dirt piles every ten minutes at high pop there is a problem.

Your dirt update really sucks. And considering the fact you directly implied that dirt is utterly unimportant, removing its generation really shouldn't be an issue if it casuses more problems for the janitor, and the entire station, than enjoyment for them. Because if you admit it is trivial and doesn't really matter one way or the other and the reaction is almost universally negative, there is no reason to steam ahead.

The dirt change has some core problems that will always make it at best a low grade annoyance. While it was hillariously poorly tuned in the math department, you have always been good on doing tweaks and maintaining your code, so I really am not to worried about you finding a place where people will not want to rip out their own eyes over this. But the core issue is that it doesn't have good game feel. People know that dirt just appearing under them for walking is wrong, and it doesn't make any real sense if you view it as a method to generate engaging work for the janitor when the clods are going to be endlessly appearing at random areas, and it doesn't represent areas of heavy wear on the station well. I like the idea of gradually darkening dirt patches and honestly think they would be awesome, but not in this system simply because the method of generation is off as well as the numbers.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:09 pm #56176

Then no one should be defending it.

Rhisereld · Post by **Rhisereld** » Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:18 pm #56178

Got my hands on some soap the other day and literally spent the entire round cleaning Medbay as a Medical Doctor. THE ENTIRE ROUND.

It was hilariously bad. Find a different solution, please.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:34 pm #56260

Is there any chance this is going to be reverted? It is pretty universally hated and does not really add anything to gameplay

WeeYakk · Post by **WeeYakk** » Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:45 pm #56297

If you take a step back from everything watching the community argue janitor related changes is one of the most surreal and hilarious things about this game. Four pages of discussing the merits of there being too much or too little dirt in a video game.

I love this game.

peoplearestrange · Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:18 pm

WeeYakk wrote:If you take a step back from everything watching the community argue janitor related changes is one of the most surreal and hilarious things about this game. Four pages of discussing the merits of there being too much or too little dirt in a video game.

I love this game.

Ahahahhah, welcome to my sig.

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:58 pm #56822

WeeYakk wrote:If you take a step back from everything watching the community argue janitor related changes is one of the most surreal and hilarious things about this game. Four pages of discussing the merits of there being too much or too little dirt in a video game.

The argument goes both ways. It is only your personal opinion that this is a small issue. For others, the janitor job is now broken, and some people don't enjoy having the immersions ruined because the station looks like Ian scooted around the entire thing. Lots are arguing for the revert of this PR, but paprka is arguing just as much for it.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:31 pm #56875

Incomptinence wrote:Humans generate dust yes. Mainly by losing hair and skin just you know churning our dead cells walking around isn't what releases it. Being stepped on actually disturbs the dust slightly so if we are talking skin particles and all that in a used area it would actually congregate on the less used surfaces.

Just sayin, the amount of dirt this "feature" assumes humans produce is roughly akin to Pigpen from the Peanuts cartoons.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:35 pm #56914

Not to mention "reelism" is irrelivent and no reason to push shitty features, which this clearly is. Crew hate it, janitors hate it, we all hate it.

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:06 pm #56919

Paprika nerfed it and the nerf is most likely to be merged over the revert. Sadly.

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:57 pm #56940

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/6809

Nerf was merged

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:24 am #57061

NikNakFlak wrote:https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/6809

Nerf was merged

The nerf nobody wanted and nobody asked for.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:44 am #57075

Yeah. How big of a revolt needs to happen before this is removed?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:45 am #57078

My guess is to see how the nerf affects the severity of the dirt, if people are still riled up then it would be a easy matter to revert it.

Spacemanspark · Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:48 pm

Personally, it doesn't make a huge difference in gameplay to me. I log in and see everything normal as it usually is. Even if I play as a janitor, I probably wouldn't have a huge problem with it, the station is just never going to be 100% clean. Even before this update.

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:27 pm #57323

It depends on how you think about gameplay.

It definitely harms janitor gameplay and removes a lot of incentive to try, so in that sense it is bad. Gameplay isn't all about conflict and combat, dirt is in fact a part of gameplay to a certain degree for most jobs and defines gameplay for one.

But you could also look at it from the lens of aesthetic direction and game feel, and by that account it is really damn ugly and feels wrong.

There hasn't really been a good defense for this change rather than "Eh?" which isn't very compelling. Instead of saying "Oh whatever" why not try to explain what this adds to the game experience? Because the agreement seems to be "No benefit, either no loss or minor loss." Meaning at best for most people it adds nothing to their experience and at worst it remvoes something.

"It isn't completely ass" or "Well I mean it doesn't really affect anything important negatively" is hardly a defense of the change.

Also, calling this a few dozen dirt stains is dumb when hundreds of dirt tiles are created every minute. That is a bit more than "a few dozen."

Spacemanspark · Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:12 am

dezzmont wrote:It depends on how you think about gameplay.

It definitely harms janitor gameplay and removes a lot of incentive to try, so in that sense it is bad. Gameplay isn't all about conflict and combat, dirt is in fact a part of gameplay to a certain degree for most jobs and defines gameplay for one.

I still see the janitor cleaning like normal, and there usually is a janitor.

dezzmont wrote:But you could also look at it from the lens of aesthetic direction and game feel, and by that account it is really damn ugly and feels wrong.

Going to stop right there and say that this game isn't supposed to look clean, either, even at round start.

dezzmont wrote:There hasn't really been a good defense for this change rather than "Eh?" which isn't very compelling. Instead of saying "Oh whatever" why not try to explain what this adds to the game experience? Because the agreement seems to be "No benefit, either no loss or minor loss." Meaning at best for most people it adds nothing to their experience and at worst it removes something.

Does it really need to add anything to gameplay? Does everything we add /have/ to keep us riveted to our seats?

dezzmont wrote:"It isn't completely ass" or "Well I mean it doesn't really affect anything important negatively" is hardly a defense of the change. "Paprika tried" is definitely not a defense and trying to hyper focus on some people getting agro is just a transparent smokescreen everyone can see through by now. For instance Saegmir was pretty fact focused until Paprika said everyone was overreacting and people were just butthurt.

Paprka tried to add something that might be nice. You don't really know until you try it out live, provided it doesn't turn everyone into mini Nar-Sies.
And yes, people were overreacting. Paprka even stated at the beginning of thread a few posts after that he could edit it to possibly make it better. Some decent criticism besides 'This is shit' would have probably helped him. I didn't mean 'Paprka tried, so it's alright to add', I meant 'Paprka tried, let's not blow his brains out for it.'.
He probably didn't consult anyone here before adding this because... it's dirt.
Also, our opening statement was:

danno wrote:THIS IS AWFUL

Not bashing on danno here, but that's not going to really help anyone's mood if that's the opening feedback to what they did.

dezzmont wrote:Also, calling this a few dozen dirt stains is dumb when hundreds of dirt tiles are created every minute. That is a bit more than "a few dozen."

It still doesn't look as bad as people are making it out to be. When I first heard about it, I logged in to expect the hallways to be completely black and caked with dirt. I probably wouldn't have noticed it had it not been pointed out.

Saegrimr wrote:
Spacemanspark wrote:Not everyone might be getting upset, but there certainly are a few people getting very upset over a few dozen extra dirt stains. Mostly looking at Saegrimer up there. That's hardly constructive criticism.
Again, though, I have yet to see how this harms gameplay. I log in and see everything normal as it usually is. Even if I play as a janitor, I probably wouldn't have a huge problem with it, the station is just never going to be 100% clean. Even before this update.
Its about as topical as the person it was directed at.

You could still be the more mature person about it.

I'll edit this later to make it make more sense, I'm currently focusing my attention on fifteen different things.

Phalanx300 · Post by **Phalanx300** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:51 pm #57523

Its a horrible change and you should feel bad for not admitting you are wrong.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:18 pm #57538

Paprika, please elaborate as to why you think this change is a good one. The only reason I can find that you've given to this is essentially that you did this to intentionally provoke the community.

The Janitor is one of my most played roles along side the Medical Doctor but below Security. What this has done is create a unnecessary amount of work for a job that already has a large amount of work to do, the station is inheriently messy just from how the round progresses, yet now there's a even more obnoxious layer of a mess that has to be cleaned up as well.

Please provide a actual, sound, reasoning as to why you support this change. You gave no reason in the initial PR, no good reason in this thread (barring the "I did it to make u mad") and no good reason in game or in any follow up PRs. Because otherwise if even you can't defend your change that does not devolve into personal attacks, I don't see a reason why it cannot be reverted.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 3:32 am #57677

It shouldn't be reverted because it adds more depth to the janitor job by having dirt generation that doesn't require people to die and be dragged around like corpses.

Post by **oranges** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:20 am #57777

This change has made the station most repugnant to mine googly boxes. I found myself most distressed when I joined the station today and had my lovely jovely round interrupted by the most hideous infestation of brown that I have ever spotted upon the earth. Indeed I found myself being quite sick to the stomach and had to interrupt my tea drinking for a spot of R&R in the watercloset.

Most unpleasant, I do hope that this feedback is sent in a form you find most pleasing to the eye.

Regards

Lord Cumberlington Wellington the Third

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:58 am #57795

Delicious wrote:
paprika wrote:apparently me adding dirt from people walking over tiles a lot to make the janitor more fun and dynamic is a terrible feature
How often do you play janitor? Because the mess you're dealing with was insurmountable enough already without adding more.

Pretty often, you can clear everywhere you have access to (barring like, all of maint) in about 10 minutes with the space cleaner backpack.

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:15 pm #57869

Paparika, when you make a change that effects the aesthetics and look of the entire station, complaining about how it LOOKS is valid feedback, because it is an aesthetic change. And it looks really shitty. Especially since unlike the blood trails we already have, this change tends to generate the dirt in areas that janitor can't get to.

Jalleo · Post by **Jalleo** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 6:16 pm #57930

Would that not be a bonus for traitor janitors in the long run?

I know how you are thinking but sometimes you have to take a bigger picture not a indepth one.

Yes some of it can be shit but to be honest it makes people feel like the janitor should do more than be a jokey griefy jobs at times it has been like.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:20 pm #57978

iyaerP wrote:Paparika, when you make a change that effects the aesthetics and look of the entire station, complaining about how it LOOKS is valid feedback, because it is an aesthetic change. And it looks really shitty. Especially since unlike the blood trails we already have, this change tends to generate the dirt in areas that janitor can't get to.

blood trails don't appear anywhere but hallways and maint you heard it here first folks

Spacemanspark · Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:57 pm

Delicious wrote:Roundstart messes are ridiculous now. I wish their volume scaled by server population. In slower rounds, when there will be less bloodstains for a janitor to clean up, a lot of roundstart messes would give him something to do. But in higher population rounds, with a lot of deaths, the extra mess isn't needed.

This seems like a good idea.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:43 pm #59032

theres a ton of roundstart messes now, thats a bug. somebody forgot some prob()s, i dont even know who it was.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:29 pm #59035

Miauw wrote:theres a ton of roundstart messes now, thats a bug. somebody forgot some prob()s, i dont even know who it was.

Its fucking hilarious, this was medbay at roundstart. It extended into science.
Bar was a vomit-fest, engineering was fucking covered in everything. 10/10.

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:19 pm #59048

This is hillarious and amazing. It is like another SS13 round happened on station a month ago and you are just coming back today.

Jalleo · Post by **Jalleo** » Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:25 pm #59052

A pr is already up and should be merged soon to solve this paprika made a fix before a issue report was made for it.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Wed Jan 14, 2015 7:01 pm #59076

I wish I could say that this bug was intentional

Snakebutt · Post by **Snakebutt** » Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:39 pm #59104

paprika wrote:
Delicious wrote:
paprika wrote:apparently me adding dirt from people walking over tiles a lot to make the janitor more fun and dynamic is a terrible feature
How often do you play janitor? Because the mess you're dealing with was insurmountable enough already without adding more.
Pretty often, you can clear everywhere you have access to (barring like, all of maint) in about 10 minutes with the space cleaner backpack.

As someone who plays chemist more than any other role, filling a waterpack with cleaner is a fucking nightmare.

I cannot fill it direcly from the beaker, I have to separate every last batch of ammonia into a new 30u bottle. Ammonia is a 3:2 recipe, meaning Im wasting power making it. Making 250u of anything is a massive headache, and I WILL empty the dispenser doing it, possibly both if Ive been busy.

Cleaner is a treat for janitors, you should never assume they just have cleaner to spare.

Only way I got through the mess on long badger rounds was praying for tator to get syndie soap.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Wed Jan 14, 2015 9:59 pm #59149

Probably quicker and cheaper to order a new backpack sprayer from cargo.

Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:57 am

A bunch of posts in this thread were deleted or edited to remove off topic complaints about paprika. Do not continue to make such posts. All discussion should be about dirt somehow.

Please don't make me regret not just locking the thread and starting a new one.

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:06 am #59210

Could a project manager comment on the actual change and policy on this situation? I would like to move treating this situation as the coder abandoning the change and it being fair game to removed without their consent.