Another One Bites The Space Dust: PR #52873 And The Banishment Of Engines

[Tarchonvaagh]

this shit right here

[Armhulen]

what's your feedback?

[Tarchonvaagh]

First and foremost, I posted this since the pr discussion was limited to maintainers.

As to what my feedback is, I really dont like it. This was a fun part of the game that is just gone with no replacement whatsoever. I mentioned in my comment on the pr that when the cloning one got merged I wasnt that anxious because of the addition of stasis beds and other changes to medical.

I just cant see the point of this stupid removal, really. Was it to save a bit of performance? If so I dont think it was worth it.

Spoiler:

keep in mind that I just woke up and am not that focused

[Armhulen]

the goal was to work on making the station have growing power needs throughout the round so engineering has to continually upgrade and maintain the engine, making power more than "it's on" or "it's off"

when engines and power is balanced to do this we can readd the other engines at the same balance level we make the supermatter!

[spookydonut]

If anyone had made any meaningful changes to those engines to improve them in the almost year since oranges first talked about removing them, they might have a case against that PR.

[NoxVS]

singularities and teslas were fucking awful anyways

built just so people could "accidentally" end the round

nothing of value was lost today

[Armhulen]

Singularity has been kept in as the delamination event (so what it pretty much always showed up as anyways) and Tesla is being fixed as we speak and readded as it's delamination event (so what it pretty much always showed up as anyways)

[Armhulen]

If anyone had made any meaningful changes to those engines to improve them in the almost year since oranges first talked about removing them, they might have a case against that PR.

And this. Interesting how 12 months pass and nobody fixes tesla killing the game every time it gets loose, but right when the removal pr is made we have multiple coders fixing atmos and tesla code to get it back in.

[VexingRaven]

If anyone had made any meaningful changes to those engines to improve them in the almost year since oranges first talked about removing them, they might have a case against that PR.

And this. Interesting how 12 months pass and nobody fixes tesla killing the game every time it gets loose, but right when the removal pr is made we have multiple coders fixing atmos and tesla code to get it back in.

Personally I didn't even know Oranges had talked about it, much less why, cause I don't follow everything said in development. Reading about the plans, personally I think they're shit but I'm not sure this is the topic for it. It basically boils down the engine to "build more turbines" which is boring as hell and completely binary (either a turbine is built or it isn't). What does it add to the game to remove engineering's ability to actually do anything besides being turbine construction specialists so everybody else can have power?

Look at goon for example. Wild engine setups to get way more power than you'll ever need is a point of pride, even though it's not even remotely needed. That's the sort of stuff we should be getting. Instead we're making it all incredibly mundane because "muh balance".

[oranges]

the only reason you think the SM is mundane is because you've spent so much time around it dude

the TEG,SM and Tesla engines (as opposed to the delams etc) had basically no mechanics at all. There's no real challenge to building them and or maintaining them, the only reason people think they're interesting is they are at the stage of playing here where they have just discovered alternate engines and are trying to build them all/see how compact they can make them, other than that, there's little to no challenge, and as soon as that's done, they offer no future benefit and or potential interest.

I'm not arguing the SM is far better by any stretch of the imagination, but it has a richer palette of interactions with the world, and can be twiddled with in a significantly more involved fashion, it's in a much better starting position than all of them to be something is more than a binary on switch the engineers have to flick at the start of every single round.

So the rest were moved out of the way so I can ensure the limited dev talent we have focus on the important engine first, without being distracted by the fact someone can solve every power problem on the station by setting up one or two singularities in the cargo bay and leaving them there.

If, later on, we have an SM that is good and needs feeding over the round and has upgrade paths, then someone is more than free to come in and add some new engine type, and give it the same amount of love, craft and care that we will give the SM.

[Flatulent]

if it’s retardedly high power generation you were worried about, why not slash power production of those engines by 10 or add a cap to how much power they can produce
also, does “rich palette of interactions” mean “vent everything and dump n2 into sm until it starts working”, because that’s how SM works in-game and that’s exactly how it’s going to work if you make it operate with turbines instead
dumping a pre-determined gas mix into SM every round is in no way more interesting than setting up singularity that’s set up the same every round

[VexingRaven]

the only reason you think the SM is mundane is because you've spent so much time around it dude

the TEG,SM and Tesla engines (as opposed to the delams etc) had basically no mechanics at all. There's no real challenge to building them and or maintaining them, the only reason people think they're interesting is they are at the stage of playing here where they have just discovered alternate engines and are trying to build them all/see how compact they can make them, other than that, there's little to no challenge, and as soon as that's done, they offer no future benefit and or potential interest.

I'm not arguing the SM is far better by any stretch of the imagination, but it has a richer palette of interactions with the world, and can be twiddled with in a significantly more involved fashion, it's in a much better starting position than all of them to be something is more than a binary on switch the engineers have to flick at the start of every single round.

So the rest were moved out of the way so I can ensure the limited dev talent we have focus on the important engine first, without being distracted by the fact someone can solve every power problem on the station by setting up one or two singularities in the cargo bay and leaving them there.

If, later on, we have an SM that is good and needs feeding over the round and has upgrade paths, then someone is more than free to come in and add some new engine type, and give it the same amount of love, craft and care that we will give the SM.

The SM isn't mundane, making it use "lul more turbines" as the way to get more power is mundane as all fuck. That's literally the most mundane possible way you could do power generation from the SM. But, I still don't think that power needs to be a "balanced" problem. Frankly, the entire rest of the station needs power and nobody else has access to do it and not having power completely ruins most jobs. It's not a luxury, it's a requirement and "having enough power" should not be a stretch goal. Give engineering something else to do with the SM as a stretch goal, maybe some exotic gasses that are actually useful.

[Flatulent]

sm is mundane as shit what are you talking about

[Armhulen]

The SM as it is right now is mundane but has already built in atmos and meltdown code that singulo and tesla don't do. thus, it's much better to start from when making a round progressing upgradable engine

[Vekter]

Not sure how I feel about this. Singularity engines haven't really been used much due to the SM just straight up being better in every way. I'm going to miss the tesla bounty in cargo, that was fun.

[Critawakets]

literally the only learning curve of the tesla and singulo are "you need to make it smaller"

i dont think its a good learning curve

[cacogen]

It's all so tiresome. oranges doesn't even play the game so his opinions on it are ill-informed and irrelevant. I think he just likes the attention.

[oranges]

You sound burned out cacogen

[Jack7D1]

Redditors reeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Limey]

this sucks

[kopoba]

this is so retarded i hate orange for this shit

[stan_albatross]

Rest in peace glorious cargo teslas

[BONERMASTER]

sayonara, trash engines

[Agux909]

Ok after reading more in depth the reasoning behind the removal of the other 2 I'm kinda on board with it. More with the thought of having later on new, more streamlined engines that can perhaps be the older ones reborn.

Just please deliver in respect to the "love" and effort you say the coder team is working towards regarding the SM. Make polls Oranges, try seeing what players would enjoy doing in there, try getting out a little out of your bubble to tweak the engine in a fashion that is in touch with as many engi playstyles as possible.

Make this PR worth, please.

[Gamarr]

singularities and teslas were fucking awful anyways

built just so people could "accidentally" end the round

nothing of value was lost today

Pretty much this.

[Jimmius]

The only thing I dislike is the removal of the TEG, but it was absolutely broken (though I'd say the issue is freezers and heaters being magical temperature boxes, rather than the TEG itself) and I don't have the time, energy, or skill required to fix it myself, so I can't really complain.
That said, I'd rather the SM require more powerful and dangerous gas mixes than simply building more turbines, if that's what the SM is evolving into. It currently already has that (that was the big selling point of the SM compared to the other engines, I thought), it's just that the extra power you get from CO2 is pointless because of how our power system currently works.

[Gogodapogostick]

My big issue is just the fact that we removed these engines in favor of easier balancing, but why not just remove them after the balancing is done, or in the same pr?

[Tarchonvaagh]

My big issue is just the fact that we removed these engines in favor of easier balancing, but why not just remove them after the balancing is done, or in the same pr?

This.
You are right, the tesla and singu were simple to set up and made the job of engineers futile.
About the teg, well, Ive never used or seen it tbh

[Agux909]

My big issue is just the fact that we removed these engines in favor of easier balancing, but why not just remove them after the balancing is done, or in the same pr?

So the rest were moved out of the way so I can ensure the limited dev talent we have focus on the important engine first, without being distracted by the fact someone can solve every power problem on the station by setting up one or two singularities in the cargo bay and leaving them there.

If, later on, we have an SM that is good and needs feeding over the round and has upgrade paths, then someone is more than free to come in and add some new engine type, and give it the same amount of love, craft and care that we will give the SM.

[Tlaltecuhtli]

If, later on, we have an SM that is good and needs feeding over the round and has upgrade paths, then someone is more than free to come in and add some new engine type, and give it the same amount of love, craft and care that we will give the SM.

well we could have just waited for yogstation to make a new engine to port first

[Ziiro]

My big issue is just the fact that we removed these engines in favor of easier balancing, but why not just remove them after the balancing is done, or in the same pr?

It's the RnD console thing all over again. "We're (re)moving this on the first step on a path to rework"

There is no step 2

[Armhulen]

If, later on, we have an SM that is good and needs feeding over the round and has upgrade paths, then someone is more than free to come in and add some new engine type, and give it the same amount of love, craft and care that we will give the SM.

well we could have just waited for yogstation to make a new engine to port first

Waiting for someone to fix it is the same as waiting for someone to fix it, and I've been watching us wait for someone to fix it ever since I joined

[oranges]

My big issue is just the fact that we removed these engines in favor of easier balancing, but why not just remove them after the balancing is done, or in the same pr?

It's the RnD console thing all over again. "We're (re)moving this on the first step on a path to rework"

There is no step 2

There was no step 2 on research because the feedback was so toxic all the people wanting to do it stopped, now experisci is stalled.

[Ziiro]

What do you expect to be different here then

[Sheodir]

My only complaint is that I'll miss the tesla bounty in cargo. Those were fun times.

[oranges]

What do you expect to be different here then

maybe you could do some self examination

[VexingRaven]

What do you expect to be different here then

maybe you could do some self examination

Maybe you should stop being surprised that people get mad when you remove something on vague promises for the future?

[Super Aggro Crag]

What do you expect to be different here then

maybe you could do some self examination

THE ENGINE RATION HAS BEEN INCREASED TO ONE ENGINE

[CPTANT]

Can't say I really care. Singulo and tesla were build rarely enough to not really be a problem.

On the other hand they were completely boring compared to the supermatter because the first sign of sabotage they gave was getting zapped or sucked into the singularity.

[oranges]

Can't say I really care. Singulo and tesla were build rarely enough to not really be a problem.

On the other hand they were completely boring compared to the supermatter because the first sign of sabotage they gave was getting zapped or sucked into the singularity.

nah the first sign would be the chunky input lag

[Screemonster]

The only thing I dislike is the removal of the TEG, but it was absolutely broken (though I'd say the issue is freezers and heaters being magical temperature boxes, rather than the TEG itself) and I don't have the time, energy, or skill required to fix it myself, so I can't really complain.
That said, I'd rather the SM require more powerful and dangerous gas mixes than simply building more turbines, if that's what the SM is evolving into. It currently already has that (that was the big selling point of the SM compared to the other engines, I thought), it's just that the extra power you get from CO2 is pointless because of how our power system currently works.

it'd be neat if the TEG or something similar could be brought back in a toned-down fashion so it couldn't produce stupid power or break thermodynamics, just as a second stage to bolt onto an existing engine

like you'd have the turbine as a primary stage and a heat exchanger as a secondary generator to make power out of the waste/exhaust heat or something

you know, like how actual power stations work

[CPTANT]

Can't say I really care. Singulo and tesla were build rarely enough to not really be a problem.

On the other hand they were completely boring compared to the supermatter because the first sign of sabotage they gave was getting zapped or sucked into the singularity.

nah the first sign would be the chunky input lag

True.

I personally think no feature is worth slowing the game to a crawl for.

[cacogen]

You sound burned out cacogen

I don't play enough anymore. Still more than you.

[Mono]

What do you expect to be different here then

maybe you could do some self examination

Local orange lacks self awareness. Take your own advice fruit.
It's infinitely amusing to hear you complain about toxicity then ignore the replies about why that toxicity happens.

The fruit aside, why exactly does power need to be balanced to begin with? It's not a stretch goal. It's not an optional function. It's a requirement for the station to function.
SM only brings a base level of complexity over any other engine when engies try to autism up a new gas mix or new setup. Otherwise it's literally just dumping N2 and possibly N20 into it and forgetting about it until it delams.

Shocked doors are capped on damage no matter how much power you dump into the network and there's no power transfer laser like on goon so there's no incentive to even max power in the first place other than to keep people from screaming about it. I'd hope that things like these are included in this vague ass promise of future content but we all know it isn't.

[Cobby]

Power needs to be balanced because people want to add features that use excess power as a balancing act.

Balancing power also means your work on gaining power has more value and can consequently be used as bargaining power for other departments

[Mono]

Power needs to be balanced because people want to add features that use excess power as a balancing act.

Balancing power also means your work on gaining power has more value and can consequently be used as bargaining power for other departments

Well that sounds nice, but ya know what would be nicer? Actually having any of those features ready before removing things.

Instead we just have things removed and the game left in a worse state with nothing to show for it other than the promise that something will be added in the future. Same shit happened with RnD and medical. Why do y'all keep doing this when the same thing happens every single time?

[BONERMASTER]

Lmao, the game ain't in a worse state. Ima tell you that it's better off without these engines, and if the SM gets tweaked and refitted to make power generation an ongoing process, then we're right on track.

Personally, I would have left em in as relics for charlie and the russki station, but then again, a demanding engine would make these more interesting as well.

[cacogen]

Why is it better off? They barely got built to begin with. I haven't seen a singularity in a very long time (unfortunately), and the tesla would get built in cargo or on the BYOS sometimes. If it were up to me a random engine would spawn in engineering each round.

Can't say I really care. Singulo and tesla were build rarely enough to not really be a problem.

On the other hand they were completely boring compared to the supermatter because the first sign of sabotage they gave was getting zapped or sucked into the singularity.

I found the release of the singularity and to a lesser extent the tesla quite riveting myself. The supermatter spams comms and then explodes, which is a problem localised to engineering (but causes a shuttle call anyway).



One day oranges will leave, like the other tyrants before him. It's weird to think even paprika made better contributions to the game.

[Jack7D1]

Oranges is the best head coder we've had yet.

[Tarchonvaagh]

Wait you didnt even testmerge it