A holistic review of goonchem's practical effects.

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Babin
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A holistic review of goonchem's practical effects.

Post by Babin » #66149

I've mained chemist for several months now. I've backdoored the Armory from space without a spacesuit. I've carpet-bombed the length of the station with plasma gas using just one beaker and survived standing in the fire. I've made pills which kill people in seconds, and pills which restore people from deep crit to full in seconds. I've had blobs wonder why THAT FUCKING CHEMIST NEVER DIES (and I even stopped doing that because I felt it was too broken and ruined rounds). Now I'm here to talk about goonchem.

First off, I've been confused as to the whole point of the goonchem update. Why was it implemented? I've heard a lot of reasons - to fix overpowered things, to make doctors more relevant, to make healing more involved, and so on. Basically none of these things have happened, but since I'm actually not sure if they were the purpose of the update, I can't really gripe about tg!goonchem failing any of its purposes. With all that in mind, it begs the question of why things were changed in the first place. If there is a reason, it'd be cool to know it. If there is no reason, then why change it to begin with? And why, in particular, cling to goonchem so strongly in the face of a majority (almost supermajority) vote to revert, and why deal with so many bugs? Surely there must be a reason.

Whatever. I'll just review the changes that I've seen, and comment on their practical purposes and what it means to me as a chemist.

First off, heating chemicals. This is fine as long as things don't get out of hand, and that hasn't happened. Heating beakers is a step. Adding nitrogen to your hydrogen is also a step. If a recipe has a lot of steps (I'm looking at Oculine, which incidentally DOESN'T use the heater for anything) then things will get frustrating as you begin to juggle beakers and fumble around with three different machines. Frustration is perhaps fine for the most useful of chemicals, especially poisons, but it has no place in basic first-aid chems. I view heaters as a non-issue and a welcome change, as long as future coders remember that there's a limit to the complexity you can add before things get really shitty to deal with. Nobody wants to juggle five beakers to make one medicine unless that medicine is worth the effort. Keep in mind that overly complicated recipes are a tax on the player behind the keyboard and everything should be fine.

Second, overdosing. A potentially fun tool for traitors. You can feed someone too much omnizine and claim ignorance when they start to die. There aren't a whole lot of OD-able drugs, however, and they kill far slower than other things that a robust chemist can mix up. Potentially fun, but I wouldn't intentionally use them. They're too slow.

Third, patches. They're okay. The main issue is that the patches generated in medkits are FAR too weak to be viable, even when you wait for their full duration. I like that they heal body-wide because it's a personal peeve of mine to have to click those tiny UI arms to apply a bandage. I really don't like the enormous patch sprite. It's a total usability issue. The sprite covers up other things, which is troublesome in chemistry because they're large enough to cover up beakers and pills. You eject the beaker and it appears underneath the patch. Ugh. I feel they should be the size of a bottle at most. Aside from all that, they're basically just pills in functionality. You can't swallow safely swallow styptic so make a patch instead. There are no practical implications of this one way or the other.

I've heard some users mention that goonchem should fix the thing where someone doses up on like 500u tricord and become a walking ling. That might be true, if not for the fact that you can still do that with other drugs. It HAS nerfed the result bit, I will admit that much. Spacewalking is still possible, but you have to mute yourself to do it. You also can't deal with toxins so easily when you're saturated with something like salglu, since charcoal and other anti-toxes will purge whatever other chems you're taking.

Cryo. Cryo is slower, but it's pretty much unchanged otherwise. Brain damage cure is slightly easier to mix, but cryo+clonex is no longer possible and you can't top it off with tricord. The important things are still intact with no practical changes other than slowing it down. Yawn.

Now for the meat and bones of chemistry: churning out lots of chemicals and keeping everyone alive. Chemistry truly is the beating heart of the medbay. A chemist without a doctor can keep things running. A doctor without chemistry can keep things running by asking the HoP for chem access. This was the case with trekchem and it's still the case with goonchem. If you think that this is a problem, then it's a problem with the medbay, not with chemistry.

The increased chemical limit is primarily to offset the loss of doctor's delight, in my experience. Under the old system it was possible to churn out 500u of DD without even touching the dispenser. Not many people did this, but it was possible and very effective at keeping the station's booboos fixed up even during blob rounds. 500u of DD generally lasts an hour and a half if you're mixing it with other chems. Add in some tricord and your usual dermaline/bicaridine mixes, and you've got some very robust pills for a very low chemical cost. That's all gone, but I can still churn out a large number of patches before running out. Did you know that Synthflesh is chemically efficient? 90u of synthflesh only takes 60u from the dispenser -- the other 30u comes from your own bloodstream. Synthflesh also heals two damage types, which significantly bumps up the dispenser-cost-to-healing efficiency if the patient happens to have both types. Better to use a single synthflesh patch than to use a styptic patch and then a silversulf patch. The blood efficiency thing is likely to be less useful after the new blood update, but I think we'll be fine borrowing humanized monkeys from genetics. We can always eat iron and nutriment to boost our blood generation. We can make both in the lab, after all.

No more generic toxin in the medbay means no more plant-b-gone, weedkiller unless we get toxin from the chef or cargo. Space kudzu is harder to deal with and botany's supply is harder to replenish. Bluh.

Deathpill combos:
15u plasma was a lethal dose and is still a lethal dose. You can now add perfluorodecalin to keep their damn mouths shut while they die. Perf doesn't heal toxin damage so it won't slow their death down that much. A bit on the slow side compared to mixed pills but simple to make and almost guaranteed to kill if you manage to forcefeed it to someone who won't receive help (like a wizard).

The usual quick-kill tactic of dumping different damaging chems into a single pill, so that they process in parallel and kill at astonishing speeds, is still around. It's slightly modified now but overall it's stronger. We lost the generic toxin that was freely available in the medbay, and with it we lost plant-b-gone and pest killer. On the other hand, we gained welding fuel and have a choice between lexorin (kills faster) or perfluorodecalin (shuts them up but ruins lexorin) or mute toxin (also shuts them up and works with lexorin but GOOD LUCK GETTING URANIUM IT NEVER HAPPENS). It's still possible to get your hands on toxin through the chef (and bad food while you're at it) to make some frighteningly fast death pills, but asking him for ruined food is kind of suspicious.

The poisons like cyanide, formaldehyde, and such are hardly worth mixing. If your goal is to kill someone, make a mixed pill. Or a grenade.

Grenades:
Same old stuff. Dark Matter and Sorium were broken when I tried them. Dark Matter sounds ridiculous if it's ever implemented - sucking everyone into the middle of your lube and acid sounds like a lulzy time for aspiring shuttle hijackers. I haven't had an opportunity to try perfluorodecalin's effects as a muting agent, but I imagine it's pretty strong if it works. Grenades haven't changed much, although the lack of plasma used in recipes now means that you have a bit more plasma to use in grenades.

Bruise packs and ointment. I never liked these. I said before, it's a personal peeve of mine to have to click all the body parts on the UI. Pixel hunting is something I really dispise! I blame my bad wrist. The current patches are just too weak, but apparently this is being fixed. Woo. If patches are made bodypart-specific then I'll cry.



I think I've covered pretty much all of the practical aspects. I'd like to talk about something which alarms me though. The concept that some coders have of "goonchem for goonchem's sake."

I play /tg/ codebase because I prefer /tg/ code. If I wanted to play on goon then I'd fucking play on goon. The concept is not a difficult one. If you must take only one thing from this entire review, let it be that bolded sentence there. It's the most important sentence I've typed.

When pudl comes along and says something like:
there's a fuck ton of oculine pills in vendors. the reason the recipe's hard on goon is because they have a shit ton of oculine pills and a shit ton of goggles that fix eyesight (we dont have them)
so basically on goon if you manage to have to MIX oculine, you fucked up and deserve shit.
or
it's 40 because that's how it is on goon
Then I just facepalm because "that's how goon does it" is a shitty copout excuse to do anything. What is balanced on goonstation is not necessarily balanced for everyone else, and there's no guarantee that it's even balanced on goonstation itself. There's no reason to copy every little thing. I didn't sign up for this shit.
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Re: A holistic review of goonchem's practical effects.

Post by paprika » #66151

Pudl/allura/quiltyquilty has yet to be permabanned from the repo for making bad changes literally under the guise of 'it's like that on goon' and 'oh i don't even like goonchem but i want to make it good For The Players'

He's somehow worse than me, I mean all I port are bay and /vg/ features, most of which are pretty ok. This shit is getting irritating, dealing with him is a nightmare and he's impeding the progress of goofball and I unfucking medical and chemistry. Not even goofball, the person who made goonchem, agrees with allura's 'further expansion'.

See: 5000000000000000 bottles of shit in the medical vendor. It's also formatted really terribly in the code, one long giant line of bottles. Absolutely fucking disgusting.
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Re: A holistic review of goonchem's practical effects.

Post by iamgoofball » #66156

I have no idea who removed toxin from the nanomed, but it wasn't me.

I'll add it back.

Also I made oculine's recipe way easier.

I have no intention of bodypart specific patches.
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Re: A holistic review of goonchem's practical effects.

Post by Grazyn » #66211

I like the fact that you have to make some bottles of basic chems (oil, acetone, ammonia etc.) before you can start working, keeping the bottles on the table ready for pouring really adds to that "chemistry" flavour.

Fluorosulfuric acid only needs heating and a grenade with 30 units instakills everything.

Strange reagent is OP, it's basically a better defib that works even if the guy has been dead for half an hour, with the only downside of turning people into zombies. Extremely easy to make since you only need a chaplain and botany access.
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Re: A holistic review of goonchem's practical effects.

Post by lumipharon » #66237

heating is still gimmicky, and dodgy as fuck. Reagents don't have a heat, beakers do. And their heat level does not chane on their own, so you can heat a beaker, label it, and just have that for the rest of the round.
And grenades before(still?) cannot have the hot reactions because of this, but your solution is even more dodgy since it magically makes ALL grenades go to 1k FNR.

The medical system as a whole is worse of because of these changes. Doctors are even more useless, cryo is just a self serve heal all with no drawbacks, and chemists still just shit out piles of meds.

It's much better to improve our own system, rather then cut out and replace it with another code base's. But of course it's not going to be reverted, and we're stuck with half baked stuff.
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Re: A holistic review of goonchem's practical effects.

Post by Pennwick » #66312

I'll be taking a shot at hot beakers and chem grenades as soon as I can. I think I have a pretty solid idea to get a mixed temp by calculating the heat energy of transferred reagents but I need to look at all reagent sources to make sure it can handle heat changes when they're generated. I want to get a good testing environment set up for myself first though. Not to rub salt, but I feel Goofball didn't test a lot and I plan to not repeat that.

I actually was fine with occuline being an asspain to make. Chemistry doesn't need to be the best at everything it does. If you don't want to make occuline do eye surgery.

I don't feel strange reagent is overpowered. Though I'm not fully sure but I think it only works on a very intact body. Both brute and Burn damage have to be below 80. For a defibulator the total of brute and burn has to be below 180. You can really only use a defib on someone who died from suffocation or toxin damage. (Not sure how devastating the gib effect will be once that starts working. Good to remove a body I suppose.)

Nanomeds are currently overstocked and terrible. It has almost every chem you could need except occuline, pentic acid, and inacusiate. Plenty of brute and burn patches between them, 50u pills of mannitol and mutadone. Chemists could pretty much be absent all shift and only the Botanists and Scientists would suffer.

A lot of this stuff just doesn't seem to have been balanced for tgstation but were ported over with the exact same values and almost nothing has changed except making saline some sort of superchem. There's a lot of work to do and from what I understand is it'd be an equal amount of work to revert it and it might not even go though. We might have passed a point of no return but I REALLY hope we can avoid this shit in the future.

I feel like we almost need a roundtable just to work out all this Goonchem vs Trekchem mess and get a unified plan going forward.
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Re: A holistic review of goonchem's practical effects.

Post by dezzmont » #66323

Pennwick wrote:There's a lot of work to do and from what I understand is it'd be an equal amount of work to revert it and it might not even go though.
You understand incorrectly. You need to manually look through to code and make sure everything goonchem touched gets turned back. Depending on how contained each change was that can either take 5 minutes or two hours, but it isn't like atmos code where trying to turn things back can break everything. It at most would take an hour or two if the code was done really poorly. It is an argument that being lazy is worth more than a good codebase, so if that is the primary defense for keeping in goonchem it really doesn't hold up.

Hell, if you were really really awful you could turn off all of goonchem and dummy it out, and just paste in trekchem which still is ready to plop back in. We have a lot of dummy code about, it would be easy enough to just keep goonchem in, change every recipie to not exist, and drop trekchem recepies back in.

If things get really dire you could even roll back the entire base to before goonchem and manually add back in stuff that came after unrelated to goonchem, but that would require a special level of not-effort in both adding the code to the station and in fixing it.
Last edited by dezzmont on Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A holistic review of goonchem's practical effects.

Post by Timbrewolf » #66326

I've been trying to play chemist as much as possible lately so I can give honest feedback on it.

I fucking hate it. There's a billion dumb recipes for things that are similar enough in function. Heating things is a stupid gimmick. It's just an added step to make things take longer and have more things to memorize in production. Beakers defy the laws the physics/entropy in maintaining temperatures that should melt your hands off if you even touched it but it's cool I have latex-gloves/bare hands. I'm not saying I want them to have to use tongs and things now because that would just make this even more of a clusterfuck.

If you want to balance chemistry don't just assume making everything more complicated = good. You should go back to the "trek chems", back to the thing we had, and then look at how much effort it takes to produce what. Clonex is a good example of "needs complex ingredients + exotic reagent (plasma)". That's about as complicated as it should get. Not this Oculine bullshit. I swear it's easier to make actual meth in real life than it is to make Crank in goonchem.

It's not that things are ridiculously difficult it's that there's so many steps to producing something and with all these new compounds you're prettymuch forced to sit there with the wiki open in a separate tab. The sheer crippling autism required to actually memorize all this bullshit is insane. I'd rather folks be devoting that brainspace to learning an actual skill or talent IRL than memorizing a flowchart for made up chemistry in a space game.

Chemistry is a sort of service job for Medbay, in that people are going to be coming in from all sorts of departments with different requests for substances. I can fill a box of large beakers for the botanist with unstable mutagen in the snap of a finger, I can refill the Janitor's backpack sprayer with space cleaner in seconds. But when it comes to actually helping people who are sick, injured, poisoned, radiated, etc. I could create and cover the station in space lube in the time it takes me to produce one good healing chem. Meanwhile people are blind, people are vomiting everywhere...it's ridiculous. If you actually want me to help you the better option would be to get up out of my lab and drag you into cryo or surgery. I actually spent the last round I played last night doing just that: abandoning chemistry so I can perform one corrective surgery after another (and a half-body prosthesis) because chemistry was too fucked by this update to be able to fix all this stuff in an expedient way.

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Re: A holistic review of goonchem's practical effects.

Post by callanrockslol » #66504

Its fine to have complex things but they shouldn't be things that are already incredibly rare to be seen in use. They should be fun recipes that cause all sorts of grief, like Life. Its easier to make a discount gold slime core than it is for me to fix someones fucking eyes.

Unfucked it would be a better system, hands down.
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Re: A holistic review of goonchem's practical effects.

Post by Kangaraptor » #66517

Dark Matter, Chlorine Trifluoride and Sorium were removed because of FreakyM and partly me figuring out you could mass produce grenades more lethal than a 3/7/14 TTV bomb by mixing some choice chemicals together (one of which being dark matter) that would literally eat whatever part of the station they touched. Suffice to say, as fun as they were, it's good they got removed.

As an aside, having played a fair bit of chemistry myself, I think goonchem is garbage for /tg/. Give us more /tg/ chems that do fun stuff, give us some more robust mixes, more reagents - sure - but keep trekchems as they were because practically nobody wanted them changed.
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Re: A holistic review of goonchem's practical effects.

Post by iamgoofball » #66538

Only clf3 was removed, sorium and dark matter are still in
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Re: A holistic review of goonchem's practical effects.

Post by Kangaraptor » #66585

iamgoofball wrote:Only clf3 was removed, sorium and dark matter are still in
Not last time either of us tried to make it.

EDIT:

this is from just now. Having a look at the chem code it doesn't seem to be in there either.
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Re: A holistic review of goonchem's practical effects.

Post by iamgoofball » #66629

Kangaraptor wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:Only clf3 was removed, sorium and dark matter are still in
Not last time either of us tried to make it.

EDIT:

this is from just now. Having a look at the chem code it doesn't seem to be in there either.
Did you heat it in the chem heater?
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Re: A holistic review of goonchem's practical effects.

Post by Cheimon » #66656

I'm not a fan of strange reagent either, as far as I can tell it's replacing a unique, interesting, and doctor-focused bit of equipment (the defibrillator) with a magic chemical. If goonchem was even remotely trying to be about helping doctors, this is reducing their agency and making the role less interesting (again). Now, if it really gibbed people? Maybe that'd be good. But I still liked the idea that dead people couldn't process reagents, it made sense to me. I'd rather see it outright removed.

Cryogenics tubes being made simpler and auto-releasing (complete with a microwave ping! sound) wasn't a great addition. Throw in there and forget is as effective as anything else now, which is a shame.

Sleepers became less effective than cryo (I'm assuming neither are upgraded), which was kind of weird. Now instead of focusing on healing the cryo patient until they can be put in sleepers for a more interesting two-stage healing process I'm yet again left with leaving them in there. Honestly I think sleepers could do with being the focus of a lot more attention generally, and maybe they should actually function as places where people have to sleep and heal rather than just two-person injection dispensaries. I think that's a place for another thread, though.
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Re: A holistic review of goonchem's practical effects.

Post by Kangaraptor » #66667

iamgoofball wrote:
Kangaraptor wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:Only clf3 was removed, sorium and dark matter are still in
Not last time either of us tried to make it.

EDIT:

this is from just now. Having a look at the chem code it doesn't seem to be in there either.
Did you heat it in the chem heater?
Ah, okay, I found the required temps in the code.

My bad, sorry. o7
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Re: A holistic review of goonchem's practical effects.

Post by iamgoofball » #66778

Cheimon wrote:I'm not a fan of strange reagent either, as far as I can tell it's replacing a unique, interesting, and doctor-focused bit of equipment (the defibrillator) with a magic chemical. If goonchem was even remotely trying to be about helping doctors, this is reducing their agency and making the role less interesting (again). Now, if it really gibbed people? Maybe that'd be good. But I still liked the idea that dead people couldn't process reagents, it made sense to me. I'd rather see it outright removed.
It does gib you now if they have over 80 brute or 80 burn. I could raise the gib bar if you feel it's a little too good at revivals.

The purpose of it is to be a ghetto defib of sorts, for when the real thing gets stolen.

Dead people don't process reagents still, but on touch effects still apply, which is why synthflesh/styptic/silver sulf and strange reagent and fluroacid do their thing on dead folks too.

Oh, also, since you're a zombie from revivals with it, it's not technically a human. Have fun with that, synthetics.
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Re: A holistic review of goonchem's practical effects.

Post by dezzmont » #66816

It is not a good mechanic. The ghetto defib is genetics, defibs are one of the few unique effects that can reasonably remain in the hands of the doctor and they desperately need them, especially because of how badly goonchem nerfed them otherwise.
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Re: A holistic review of goonchem's practical effects.

Post by Bombadil » #66905

IT GIBS YOU NOW? THE FUCK. So if a med doctor royally fucks up and defibs you while highly damaged you are permanently removed from round? Thanks goofass.
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Re: A holistic review of goonchem's practical effects.

Post by iamgoofball » #66941

Bombadil wrote:IT GIBS YOU NOW? THE FUCK. So if a med doctor royally fucks up and defibs you while highly damaged you are permanently removed from round? Thanks goofass.
SR gibs you, the standard defib does not.

I should clarify, when SR gibs you it leaves a brain behind. And it only happens if they don't apply at least 1-2 styptic/silver sulf patches to get you out of gib range. Smart MDs can pull the monkey human brain cloning technique, or just send the brain to robotics for cyborging/making into a new AI.

I should of mentioned that the first time, sorry.
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Re: A holistic review of goonchem's practical effects.

Post by dezzmont » #66945

No worries Goofball. I know you are getting a lot of flack right now.

Strange is a decent idea. I don't like it because it makes MDs even less special, but from what I have seen it isn't out and out broken.
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Re: A holistic review of goonchem's practical effects.

Post by paprika » #66984

Please remove the strange reagent, I don't like it at all and it kind of makes the entire effort i have been putting into making doctors more relevant completely worthless
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Re: A holistic review of goonchem's practical effects.

Post by DemonFiren » #67038

Doctors never were relevant.
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Re: A holistic review of goonchem's practical effects.

Post by lumipharon » #67052

And that's an issue. Pre goonchem doctors could actually be useful, with a defib and a belt full of healing shit.
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Re: A holistic review of goonchem's practical effects.

Post by Cheimon » #67067

That and I've heard iron pills replace blood. If that's true, that makes Paprika's other great update (blood) recently equally pointless, since nobody is going to bother fiddling with an IV drip when a pill can quickly do the same thing without regard to blood type.
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Re: A holistic review of goonchem's practical effects.

Post by lumipharon » #67069

Iron makes you regen blood quicker. This has nothing to do with goonchem, and afaik pap already nerfed it's power.
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Re: A holistic review of goonchem's practical effects.

Post by paprika » #67090

Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.
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