Helmet cameras on security officers

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:58 pm #78079

Do I really have to explain why this is bad? If so,

Impossible to attack a officer since the moment they scream the ai/warden knows their location and who is attacking them
This is another way to weaken antags even further
This combined with the terrible idea of those implants(anti stun, no drop, etc.) makes security untouchable

Pls revert immediately.

Amnestik · Post by **Amnestik** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:09 am #78082

I'm surprised this got pulled. It's clearly an overpowered feature that makes security officers even more difficult to kill (at least for a solo antagonist (that armour mang)) than they already are.

I would've thought Coderbus would've had a better understanding of game design than this.

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:15 am #78085

This is really fucking dumb.
If the AI can immeidately view all sec officers no matter where they are, antags have no choice except to go loud when dealing with sec officers unless they have an emp - there's zero way around this.
This is the opposite of what we want.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:19 am #78086

Now that sec is omniscient god kings in league with the AI since they have cameras in their helmets can they get their antag status back?

Seriously you can't fight having fucking helmet's in their fucking helmets. Oh you could emp... oh wait that sets off camera alarms and atmos alarms too...

Oh just take the helmet off and throw it somewhere else... If your in maint you have nowhere to dispose of it and it always has a camera link.

Security with easy x-ray from implants are now omniscient god kings.

GG coderbus do you fucking understand balance?

Do you people just want rounds to go on forever? Because this is how all antags easily get caught with the help of an ai or the warden

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:36 am #78092

The AI could always track sec though unless they went into maint.

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:41 am #78094

yes, and maint is quite plentiful, and you know, where most murders happen anyway. Now no where is is out of camera coverage, as the sec officer is concerned.

onleavedontatme · Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:42 am

So rev is literally impossible now then. It was already extremely difficult if sec was populated paying attention since every real weapon in the armory and revs armed primarily with fists and toolboxes but this is just silly.

Bombadil wrote: Seriously you can't fight having fucking helmet's in their fucking helmets. Oh you could emp... oh wait that sets off camera alarms and atmos alarms too...

Camera alarms should not exist. Cameras should die from being cut once with clippers.

lumipharon wrote: antags have no choice except to go loud

Agreed. Same thing with cameras being a pain to cut. People complain that traitors never do anything interesting and then make it so it's impossible to not be seen.

Amnestik · Post by **Amnestik** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:43 am #78096

Saegrimr wrote:The AI could always track sec though unless they went into maint.

1. Not if there was a cut/roundstart disabled camera
2. Maintenance is pretty much the lair of the antagonists where they do most of their antagonistic acts, which is now pretty much nullified if security officers can act as maint scourers for the AI. Don't they have roundstart maintenance now too?

Jalleo · Post by **Jalleo** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:51 am #78099

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/8439
The pull request that added it.

To be honest I think the camera bit should be made a config and voted on if people do believe it is that far out of balance then it could be disabled. But until then it should wait while we see if there is more usage of the emp tools.

Antimattercarp · Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:52 am

Looks like the metagame is going to adapt, you can code it so that the network is changed making it so that the AI cannot casually look through the helmet cams.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:53 am #78102

Did they ever get roundstart maint?

And the borgs have a camera the AI can track through as well for maint prowling. Could always have some mumbo jumbo about maintenance shielding interfering with the AI tracking so only camera consoles can follow them. You know, cause it protects from radiation and all that too.

Edit: Well shit sniped by the carp.

onleavedontatme · Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:58 am

"You can EMP them" is not the answer.

Half the appeal of SS13 is (or was) completing your objectives in a variety of different ways. Forcing people to use a specific piece of antag gear to counter a specific piece of security gear is silly.

Why enforce a rigid meta in the sandbox?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:01 am #78107

I was the one to originally present/"code" the idea.

There was a bit of debate on if the AI should be able to view the Officer cameras, but it was seen as that they should be able to due to Sec being able to see Cyborg cameras and similar. Also, EMP Flashlights are pretty good local EMP devices that won't activate the EMP alarms, they will also disable a lot of the Officers equipment. In fact I foresee the EMP Kit becoming a lot more popular.

Imo a Officer should be a big threat, and that PR does help in this.

However don't forget that this is not so much a buff to the AI as it is a buff to the Warden/HoS as now they can actually better do their job and monitor their Officers remotely!

Also you can attach your Seclight to the helmet as well!

onleavedontatme · Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:05 am

Steelpoint wrote: Imo a Officer should be a big threat

They are though. Or they were before the taser nerf. Stun batons and flashbangs are still great though.

They're an incorruptible, infallible force with their own channel with a ton of weapons with nothing else to do but hunt badguys.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:08 am #78111

Until someone stun prods a Officer and drags them into maintenance, lost forever. Now it takes more effort to attack and kill a Officer aside from a stun prod/cablecuff/wield/space.

onleavedontatme · Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:10 am

Steelpoint wrote:Until someone stun prods a Officer and drags them into maintenance, lost forever. Now it takes more effort to attack and kill a Officer aside from a stun prod/cablecuff/wield/space.

How much effort exactly should it take?

Why is stunning and dragging into maint, a staple of the game for nearly a decade, suddenly a bad thing?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:14 am #78113

Kor wrote:How much effort exactly should it take?

Why is stunning and dragging into maint, a staple of the game for nearly a decade, suddenly a bad thing?

Because that's extremely easy for anyone on station to pull off, and don't forget you can still do this but you'll have to move quickly to avoid the inevitable Security/Silicon response. For example, if you ambush a Officer in a isolated part of the station, cuff and drag them to main, then toss out their helmet. Your golden.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:17 am #78114

Please steelpoint.

Stop having such a hard on for sec officers and realize they should be able to die without powergamers scanning sec officer cams constantly

This change makes sec way too fucking strong.

onleavedontatme · Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:20 am

Steelpoint wrote:
Kor wrote:How much effort exactly should it take?

Why is stunning and dragging into maint, a staple of the game for nearly a decade, suddenly a bad thing?
Because that's extremely easy for anyone on station to pull off

And?

Easy and fast death is at the core of this game. Or was.

We're on a "paranoia laden death trap," remember? Nothing stops them yelling for help normally

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:23 am #78119

Kor wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:
Kor wrote:How much effort exactly should it take?

Why is stunning and dragging into maint, a staple of the game for nearly a decade, suddenly a bad thing?
Because that's extremely easy for anyone on station to pull off
And?

Easy and fast death is at the core of this game. Or was.

We're on a "paranoia laden death trap," remember? Nothing stops them yelling for help normally

Coders have been slowly working torwards slow and agonizing death. Its infesting everyone now.

Amnestik · Post by **Amnestik** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:52 am #78129

Steelpoint wrote:
Kor wrote:How much effort exactly should it take?

Why is stunning and dragging into maint, a staple of the game for nearly a decade, suddenly a bad thing?
Because that's extremely easy for anyone on station to pull off, and don't forget you can still do this but you'll have to move quickly to avoid the inevitable Security/Silicon response.

By this point your cover's already blown and you're already set to arrest, making you an easy target for all of security on board. Before this change, the officer would only have been able to get out their location before being beaten unconscious/into crit.

allura · Post by **allura** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:03 am #78132

just give sec 1 or 2 public helmets with cameras on them, don't make cameras attachable to sec helms. maybe let rnd construct them, so that way a. they're more than sec access, b. actually limited and c. sacrificing your head protection for a camera on yourself

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:05 am #78136

Steelpoint wrote:For example, if you ambush a Officer in a isolated part of the station, cuff and drag them to main, then toss out their helmet. Your golden.

Have you forgotten about headsets? Or suit sensors? It takes a solid 8 seconds AT LEAST to do what you just described. By that time they have yelled their lungs out.
and don't get me started on handheld crew monitors.

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:07 am #78138

Also if the coders are going to make emps the answer to everything then make the emp kit dirt cheap, like literally 1 tc cost since you seem to need it to get anything done. Good luck revs.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:17 am #78142

Also the emps will setoff all the fucking alarms because why the fuck not?

So hey you disabled his cam but AI's sending borgs with rapeprods to shove up your ass nonharmfully because camera alarms went off

onleavedontatme · Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:21 am

ThatSlyFox wrote:Also if the coders are going to make emps the answer to everything then make the emp kit dirt cheap, like literally 1 tc cost since you seem to need it to get anything done. Good luck revs.

The simple beauty of ROBUST COMBAT is that you didn't need specific objects to down people. Borgs/hulks were no fun to play against because they violated this simple rule.

Now everything seems to violate this rule.

"It's immune to stuns but you can grab this situational item!"

Which now encourages people to power game/hoard things just in case, because if they don't they literally can't fight X enemy without Y item.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:58 am #78155

This change does not make it harder to kill a Officer, only that in doing so its easier for Security to attempt to track their man from afar.

WeeYakk · Post by **WeeYakk** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:59 am #78156

Kor wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:
Kor wrote:How much effort exactly should it take?

Why is stunning and dragging into maint, a staple of the game for nearly a decade, suddenly a bad thing?
Because that's extremely easy for anyone on station to pull off
And?

Easy and fast death is at the core of this game. Or was.

We're on a "paranoia laden death trap," remember? Nothing stops them yelling for help normally

The years since you've been gone haven't been good to this server.

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:21 am #78160

Steelpoint wrote:This change does not make it harder to kill a Officer, only that in doing so its easier for Security to attempt to track their man from afar.

So it isn't harder to kill a officer but it is harder to get away with it and easier for said officer to get cloned. This is bad no matter which way you look at it.

Allohsnackbar · Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:40 am

B-B-But I can't kill off the entire security force one by one as an assistant anymore.
Fuck off. No one cares about your desires for a murderbony rampage with no sec to oppose you. You chose to tick off antag, and you make the decision to stunprod+cuff/drag into maint.
Learn how to adapt, or get your shit pushed in. It's that's simple

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:50 am #78163

I think it would be smart to give this new feature a while to settle in before we demand it be reverted, since it was only merged a day ago.

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:01 am #78164

Making secuirty stronger is nothing but bad news. Antags are struggling enough as is.

Post by **PKPenguin321** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:15 am #78166

Let's talk about fixing this if it does indeed turn out to be a huge issue.
Let's look at this feature fairly critically. EMPing the helmet WILL deactivate the camera, and WILL NOT set off a camera alarm (as stated in the PR).
This is good, because it means that there is still a way to get around a sec officer's camera as a traitor. However, this is bad in that that is the only way to do it. Not to mention other antagonists without readily available EMPs, such as Revs, are boned.
What was good about it? The fact that there was a counter. What was bad about it? The fact that the counter is in very limited supply, and that it is too restricting as the only available option.
The solution? Make countering a sec officer's headcam easier, to an absurd extent.

My proposed solution is that bashing a sec officer's head/helmet will break/scramble the camera, making it no longer function unless the sec officer does something like take a screwdriver to it.
This makes the headcam a bit of a glass cannon: Highly powerful, but extremely easily destroyed. You shouldn't be taking brute damage to your head unless you walked into space or someone's already attacking you anyways, meaning that as long as a traitor or revolutionary aims for the head, assassinating security officers is effectively unchanged. At the same time, assuming the officer's not being murdered but happened to take brute damage through some other mean, he can simply fix his headcam by stepping back for a few seconds and tinkering with it.
It will still be counterable by people with camera access (AI, warden) noticing the sec officer disappearing off the camera list, of course, but this isn't nearly as much of an issue as nigh-indestructible permanent cameras on every sec officer's head.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:30 am #78169

Disrupting the cam when the helmet is being attacked is all well and good until up you realise that by doing that then suddenly the cams become useless as 95% of people aim for the head.

callanrockslol · Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:35 am

Steelpoint wrote:Disrupting the cam when the helmet is being attacked is all well and good until up you realise that by doing that then suddenly the cams become useless as 95% of people aim for the head.

That's the point.

Post by **PKPenguin321** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:43 am #78173

callanrockslol wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:
That's the point.

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:53 am #78176

PKPenguin321 wrote:
callanrockslol wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:
That's the point.

Still have no idea why they were added anyway

onleavedontatme · Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:58 am

PKPenguin321 wrote:and WILL NOT set off a camera alarm (as stated in the PR).

But it will set off every alarm in the area/areas near you. EMPs are not really precision weapons.

Plus your EMP will drain your own weapons, further limiting what you can use.

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:26 am #78189

emp flashlight is extremely useful, since it's a one tile rechargable emp.

But forcing antags to get a specific item to not be gimped is shitty design.

Pennwick · Post by **Pennwick** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:15 am #78204

Steelpoint wrote:Disrupting the cam when the helmet is being attacked is all well and good until up you realise that by doing that then suddenly the cams become useless as 95% of people aim for the head.

It would hinder Officer Lingly. At least if broken cameras showed up on the list, otherwise they would just break their own cameras.

I haven't had any experience with them directly yet but what was it that they were trying to correct? I mean officers already have some pretty robust gear but even with it they should be cautious about scouring maint on their own. This not only gives the Warden an easy way to watch over his officers but the AI as well. As much as it may help sec officers to stay in the round it feels very unbalanced to have two extra eyes watching over each officer.

Allohsnackbar · Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:07 pm

ThatSlyFox wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
callanrockslol wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:
That's the point.
Still have no idea why they were added anyway

Because it makes sense?
Because their is no reason a security force wouldn't use these?
You act like you can't take off your ID and put on a mask.

Lumbermancer · Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:47 pm

That was my first though, it makes sec so much harder to deal with for traitors. I wouldn't mind if the camera was removed. And implants will get exploited like superpowers, I already saw ad hoc surgery made in R&D, giving them out like candy.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:29 pm #78248

Allohsnackbar wrote:
ThatSlyFox wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
callanrockslol wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:
That's the point.
Still have no idea why they were added anyway
Because it makes sense?
Because their is no reason a security force wouldn't use these?
You act like you can't take off your ID and put on a mask.

You do fucking realize that the whole of the space station has always been anahcronisitc hacky shit. I mean we use fucking pdas. Now suddenly security is a competent force with cameras installed?

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:31 pm #78249

Steelpoint wrote:Disrupting the cam when the helmet is being attacked is all well and good until up you realise that by doing that then suddenly the cams become useless as 95% of people aim for the head.

Thats the point. Your only other recourse is buying a niche emp flashlight to point at the sec officer and does emping it set off an alarm? Because if it does that is fucking bullshit.

Thse should have to be made not an outright beginning thing. That gives sec way too much power. Of course cameras are fucking easy to make anyway...

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:33 pm #78250

The tech level of the station has always been weird and out of whack, so there's no real excuse/reasoning as to why we can't have some advance tech and some low tech.

Off the top of my head, here are some examples of "out of whack tech" we have...

20th Century Defibrillators
Advance Stun Weapons that can tase someone at range
Cyborgs
A Bloody Mop and Bucket
20th Century Microwaves
Animal slaughtering for food
Highly advance research tools
Makeshift spears

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:39 pm #78251

Bombadil wrote: Thats the point. Your only other recourse is buying a niche emp flashlight to point at the sec officer and does emping it set off an alarm? Because if it does that is fucking bullshit.

Thse should have to be made not an outright beginning thing. That gives sec way too much power. Of course cameras are fucking easy to make anyway...

This changes gives Security information power, not physical power. Now people are going to start being wary of confronting a Officer directly without a proper plan, this change will also heavily encourage Warden's and HoS players to remain in the brig to watch their Officers from afar, essentially acting as a proper command and control.

As has been explained several times in this thread, the cameras inside Helmets do not set off any alarms if they are hit with a EMP.

I still think people are way overestimating this change, if you stun and drag off a Officer you've still got a lot of time to kill them and ditch the helmet, and even without the camera they can still scream out your name onto the general comms system, and the AI can jump to the Officer.

Remember to take off your ID card and wear a mask. Information is king but if all Sec knows is that the killer was a unknown person then they have very little to go on. Especially when its very easy for people to nab extra clothing.

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:34 pm #78264

The power that security has always had was power in numbers. If they were able to converge on a area it is over for said antags. With this change that power has increased considerably. So much that attacking a officer, even if they are your target and in a isolated camera less area, is suicide.

There is no way you have enough time to stun, drag a officer to maint(again maint is pointless now anyway), and remove the helmet.

TheNightingale · Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:00 pm

I'm rather fond of this change (or I will be, once it applies to berets...). Taking on a lone Officer as an antagonist shouldn't just be stunprod-cablecuff-strip-toolbox, or revolver spamclicking; I believe it should require more preparation than that. Now, if you want to assassinate Security (as well you might), you'll need a way to disable their helmet camera as well - and remember that a Warden isn't always looking at the cameras, or at a particular Officer. If you're willing to take that risk, kill them and quickly strip the helmet; if not, be prepared.

Security is the go-to hard-counter to antagonists. When you see someone with an energy sword in the Bar, you don't (usually) call for Engineering to come and arrest them. If an antagonist wishes to kill Security, they now have two viable options:

Go loud; kill the Officer (quickly or not), be set on Arrest, and fight the rest of Security, or
Be prepared; bring an EMP, distract whoever's watching the cameras or mute them and be very quick about taking the helmet.

This only weakens the 'mutesting stunprod'/'sleepypen ebow' option, which I don't see as a bad thing. A changeling can still lead an attack on an Officer with EMP shriek, which disables their headset, camera and ranged stun options, after all.

However, this does make Revolutions rather one-sided. I'd suggest removing the EMP-proofing upgrade; it's the best counter to helmet cameras there is at the moment. The idea of a camera being damaged when attacked in the head is a good one: by then, a particularly fast Warden might have caught a glimpse of the attacker. I'd advise against 95%, however, since bumping one's head and going off-camera would be a little frustrating, even if it is fixable.

danno · Post by **danno** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:02 pm #78272

Kor wrote:"You can EMP them" is not the answer.

Half the appeal of SS13 is (or was) completing your objectives in a variety of different ways. Forcing people to use a specific piece of antag gear to counter a specific piece of security gear is silly.

Why enforce a rigid meta in the sandbox?

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:23 pm #78279

danno wrote:
Kor wrote:"You can EMP them" is not the answer.

Half the appeal of SS13 is (or was) completing your objectives in a variety of different ways. Forcing people to use a specific piece of antag gear to counter a specific piece of security gear is silly.

Why enforce a rigid meta in the sandbox?

I hate emptyquoting but Kor's post is pretty much all I can say on the matter. This isn't a MOBA where specific foes should require specific itemization to have a good chance of offing them. SS13 should not be broken down into a series of hard counters. Security is a go-to counter for loud antagonists, yes - In this game, stuns are king and dictate pretty much all fights. You can't go 'quiet' against Security when the Warden is mouthbreathing onto his camera console just waiting for someone to manifest the 2 pixel inhand of a sleepypen within 5 tiles of an Officer.

These are a fine idea for something that can be made/acquired later on in the round. I'm partial to Scardey's idea of having a mining-voucher-esque system for special Security gear. A helmet cam would fit fine as a voucher item.