Security helmet Camera Vote Or Die Edition

Post by **oranges** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:31 pm #78304

Simple enough, keep or revert

A revert will be considered if there is a strong enough indication in that direction.

PS: there needs to be a lot of votes to indicate that most of the community has had a chance to see it, so get your butts out there and beat up your friends until they vote

(CONSIDERED DOES NOT IMPLY IT WILL BE REVERTED OKAY, ORANGES LTD CAN NOT BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY TEARS CRYING OR BUTTHURT THAT MAY RESULT FROM ANY POLL OUTCOMES)

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:34 pm #78343

Having your only options to try stealthily kill a sec officer being 'emp them' does not make the game more interesting, or involve 'planning'. All it does it make one specific item needed 100% of the time or it's literally impossible to do anything subtly. This just reduces any possibility of actually being interesting or original, when your options are 'revolver them in the head' or 'buy a fucking emp kit'.

Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:15 pm

I'd like an "it should be tweaked" option, since I suggested a reworking in another thread already.
As it stands, though, it should be reverted.

also, link to original thread

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:49 pm #78390

Fine as a researchable thing, probably shouldn't be roundstart

onleavedontatme · Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:53 pm

Incoming wrote:Fine as a researchable thing, probably shouldn't be roundstart

We need an alternative to late round items other than shoving things into a machine in a certain order and then waiting for mining.

Would be cool to have as a choice though, yeah

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:51 am #78422

Security players are all voting keep

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:16 am #78426

I play HoS more than any job and I voted revert. The thrill of being HoS is disappearing. Before it felt like a battle, now it feels like you are simply hunting small animals.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:30 am #78431

Staying on topic. What I'm seeing is a clash of ideology on this issue, some people think that Officers should be easy to take out and kill stealthily, while others think that while Officers can be easily killed in stealth, but in doing so will result in Sec knowing about this and being able to respond, or something like that.

Cameras being mountable to helmets has been a very long and suggested idea for a long time, and I think it will be a good change overall.

If anyone on the station deserves at least a few moments of thought before attacking with a stun prod, I think Security gets it.

(Also, I think its too early to revert this change anyway as its only been two days)

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:48 am #78439

I think this limits options, which tends to end in more murderboning.

If I'm going to be revealed for stealthtaking out an officer a lot of the time anyway, I might as well go loud right?

Otherwise everyone has to invest in emps, which is kinda lame.

onleavedontatme · Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:05 am

Steelpoint wrote: If anyone on the station deserves at least a few moments of thought before attacking with a stun prod, I think Security gets it.

You mean other than needing to make sure nobody else sees you, that you can get into maint quickly enough, hoping the AI isn't looking, hoping he doesn't have suits sensors on, and dealing with the fact that he's gonna call out his location?

People keep saying antags should just adapt.

Why can' security adapt by enabling suit sensors and keeping in radio contact, sticking with a friend, etc?

Tsaricide · Post by **Tsaricide** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:08 am #78447

This kind of ruins the paranoia aspect of the game since officers have nothing to fear with three ways of being tracked.

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:48 am #78460

I can see how this benefits security officers immensely. Nothing is worse when you're just walking around and then someone pops out of a locker and prods you. Even if you yell for help and he's dragging your fucked if leaves the area he was in, removes your headset so that's GG no re. It also makes antag actives harder because they can't score the quick and easy kill of a lone sec officer, but can't remain hidden if they choose to do such a thing. But it forces them to actually get creative with what they're doing instead of prod and cuff to win.

I'm really on the fence with this one for several reasons:
Security gets shit on routinely and this helps them be able to be responsive to people who are trying to maint murder them
It's a great counter to those people who fuck off in space,hide in lockers,tunnel,etc and wait to pop out of a locker and drag them to their deaths
Antags like cultist or revs have a harder time nabbing a single officer, granted both are shitty gametypes, so who cares about that.
EMP is the only direct counter.

Solution? Keep the cameras,they offer security some breathing roof because they won't have to worry about getting prodded and dragged into the tunnels and more reason for antag to be stealthy. Make the cameras break after 2-5 hits from brute weapons, fist can't break them but things like a hatchet,pickaxe,toolbar,etc can. Wire cutter their head to cut the camera wire.

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:08 am #78467

Officers already have suit sensors and radios.

Any warden worth their salt has a monitoring console (metastation has one by default, why the fuck does box not?), so you can see exactly where someone is when they call for help, and send backup there.
And if you pay ACTUAL attention, then you'll notice when people silent start taking damage and/or suspiciously drop off sensors altogether.

Hell, if you're REALLY paranoid, tracking implant officer and never lose them again.

I was a fan of the idea of these cameras, but as they are now, it's a stupid easy way to make stealthy tactics completely invalid.

Most of the time an officer will get a call for help out before getting dunked, but if they antag is smart they can avoid being seen or caught. That's impossible with this, which means the antag is fucked.
There is no 'creative' way around this. It's emp or go loud.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:29 am #78470

You can avoid having your identity revealed by not wearing your ID card and hiding your face, or you can avoid confronting a Officer at all.

The thing is that Officers wear a very distinct uniform and are low in numbers, simply avoiding Officers and targeting civilians will work out better, or maybe consider hitting at home and targetting the Warden and/or the HoS who have access to these cameras and are in best the position to use this information.

danno · Post by **danno** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:34 am #78472

literal h u g b o x. they didn't need this. this is restrictive to everyone.

Kor wrote:"You can EMP them" is not the answer.

Half the appeal of SS13 is (or was) completing your objectives in a variety of different ways. Forcing people to use a specific piece of antag gear to counter a specific piece of security gear is silly.

Why enforce a rigid meta in the sandbox?

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:39 am #78474

Steelpoint wrote:You can avoid having your identity revealed by not wearing your ID card and hiding your face, or you can avoid confronting a Officer at all.

The thing is that Officers wear a very distinct uniform and are low in numbers, simply avoiding Officers and targeting civilians will work out better, or maybe consider hitting at home and targetting the Warden and/or the HoS who have access to these cameras and are in best the position to use this information.

What if I need to kill off Security to further my objective? A confrontation is almost inevitable unless I'm le nitrile gloves emag for the RCD man, and Security does not need even more buffs

Seriously I enjoy the fuck out of playing solo security because of the thrill of the danger - Being watched by Big Brother and having my body found near-instantly because of helmet cams is dumb. Security is arguably supposed to be the hardest job in the game and does not need silly little tweaks like this to make it somewhat more friendly. It's a dangerous station out there, and that's the way it should be.

Kor wrote:"You can EMP them" is not the answer.

Half the appeal of SS13 is (or was) completing your objectives in a variety of different ways. Forcing people to use a specific piece of antag gear to counter a specific piece of security gear is silly.

Why enforce a rigid meta in the sandbox?

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:51 am #78479

not wearing your id is not enough. your hair sticking out? Distinctive as fuck.
What are you wearing? Distinctive as fuck.

Basically on top of avoiding any sec and escaping uncaught, you also need a full body disguise, and sec know exactly where you are, so you have even less time to try kill the guy and do something with the body.

Yeah, naw. There was no issue with sec officers being MASS MURDERED by some army of stun prod wielding antags in maint.

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:25 am #78509

One of the best solutions I offer is making the helmet cam ONLY available to the tactical helm is the armory and swat helmets. Tactical and SWAT should have a camera because tacticool and swat.

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:34 am #78513

Would anyone be opposed to them being semi highish R&D items?

Most officers will be too lazy to get them, and the ones that do want them can't just get them round start (mineral/research reqs).

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:48 am #78515

Asking a item to be made a RnD researchable item is just saying we want to get rid of it without getting rid of it.

Its clear this is a 50/50 event, I think for the moment we should at least let it play out on the server for at least a week.

onleavedontatme · Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:58 am

Steelpoint wrote:Asking a item to be made a RnD researchable item is just saying we want to get rid of it without getting rid of it.

Good point. When phazons stopped spawning in the mechbay and we made them something you had to build they basically stopped existing.

Seriously though you should give these to nuke ops instead with a built in verb to view eachothers helmets for maximum operating

Incomptinence · Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:06 am

I just dislike the lack of a toggle. Sometimes even lawful servants of justice need privacy and throwing your hat in a corner and hiding a room away just seems sheepish.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:53 am #78540

Kor wrote:Good point. When phazons stopped spawning in the mechbay and we made them something you had to build they basically stopped existing.

Is this sarcasm? Phazons are probably the second most built mech now, behind ripleys.

danno · Post by **danno** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:53 pm #78598

they weren't like that for the longest time though, saegrimr.

Drynwyn · Post by **Drynwyn** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:44 pm #78619

who the fuck builds RIPLEYS

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:58 pm #78626

Bored cargo techs and for miners.

Well, USED TO for miners. Ever since that kinetic accelerator upgrade ripleys are useless to them.

Allohsnackbar · Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:16 pm

lumipharon wrote:Would anyone be opposed to them being semi highish R&D items?

Most officers will be too lazy to get them, and the ones that do want them can't just get them round start (mineral/research reqs).

I would be opposed.
This technology exists now. There's no reason why it would not exist 500 years from now.

danno · Post by **danno** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:17 pm #78637

muh realism is more important than balance and mechanics :- DDDDDDDDDD

TheNightingale · Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:24 pm

R&D already has quite a few shiny toys (especially for Security - advanced energy guns, telescopic shields, stun revolvers, loyalty pins, implants, NVSecs...). I'd suggest giving them to another department to make: perhaps a crate of {generic camera part 1} orderable from Cargo, which need {generic Engineering part 2} attached to them to create the helmet-cam assembly? It's convoluted, but worth it.

onleavedontatme · Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:31 pm

Allohsnackbar wrote:
lumipharon wrote:Would anyone be opposed to them being semi highish R&D items?

Most officers will be too lazy to get them, and the ones that do want them can't just get them round start (mineral/research reqs).
I would be opposed.
This technology exists now. There's no reason why it would not exist 500 years from now.

Our modern day security cameras are also quite capable of recording. Lets make all the cameras on station record, it'll make it harder to just kill people and get away with it.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:34 pm #78696

Kor wrote:Our modern day security cameras are also quite capable of recording. Lets make all the cameras on station record, it'll make it harder to just kill people and get away with it.

"Someone emagged into the Captain's Office and left no prints! What do we do?"
"Oh, let me just pull up the CCTV recording from the approximate time. Oh, yep, there he is, Greyshit McMurderbone. Bag him!"

onleavedontatme · Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:53 pm

Scones wrote:
Kor wrote:Our modern day security cameras are also quite capable of recording. Lets make all the cameras on station record, it'll make it harder to just kill people and get away with it.
"Someone emagged into the Captain's Office and left no prints! What do we do?"
"Oh, let me just pull up the CCTV recording from the approximate time. Oh, yep, there he is, Greyshit McMurderbone. Bag him!"

Exactly. A far more realistic scenario. It would also discourage antags from doing bad things and would be a huge step forward to converting ss13 to the quiet job simulator it was meant to be.

danno · Post by **danno** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:54 pm #78720

i'm glad he was joking because realism is shit

Allohsnackbar · Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:56 pm

Scones wrote:
Kor wrote:Our modern day security cameras are also quite capable of recording. Lets make all the cameras on station record, it'll make it harder to just kill people and get away with it.
"Someone emagged into the Captain's Office and left no prints! What do we do?"
"Oh, let me just pull up the CCTV recording from the approximate time. Oh, yep, there he is, Greyshit McMurderbone. Bag him!"

Please. Continue to pervert what I'm saying.
You know I'm trying to make a rational, civilized point.
I know your trying to undermine it by taking it to an extreme.
Stop.

Remie Richards · Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:58 pm

Antimattercarp · Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:34 pm

You guys know that you can just change the network the helmet cams are on so that the AI has to change network to see them right? The AI seeing them seems to be the biggest complaint about them from the people I talk to, I don't like it either.

Post by **MisterPerson** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:02 pm #78732

Antimattercarp wrote:You guys know that you can just change the network the helmet cams are on so that the AI has to change network to see them right? The AI seeing them seems to be the biggest complaint about them from the people I talk to, I don't like it either.

Frankly I'd rather the AI was just flat out unable to see other networks at all rather than having to go through a stupid menu, but yeah, that would be another option. Of course that kind of defeats the purpose because then only the warden can see through the cams through the shitty computer and at that point I would argue we're better off just removing the helmet and trying something else.

Post by **oranges** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:24 am #78794

Golly this is quite a close poll

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:42 am #78797

MisterPerson wrote:
Antimattercarp wrote:You guys know that you can just change the network the helmet cams are on so that the AI has to change network to see them right? The AI seeing them seems to be the biggest complaint about them from the people I talk to, I don't like it either.
Frankly I'd rather the AI was just flat out unable to see other networks at all rather than having to go through a stupid menu, but yeah, that would be another option. Of course that kind of defeats the purpose because then only the warden can see through the cams through the shitty computer and at that point I would argue we're better off just removing the helmet and trying something else.

That's the point, this system is for the benefit of the Warden and HoS.

Bob Dobbington · Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:12 am

It seems like a reasonable third option might be to keep the cams, but make them still image cams. Either with the console in sec, or with a hud button on the wearer, you can trigger the camera to flash and take, say, a 5x5 or so snapshot, which gets saved to ROM on the helmet and transmitted to the sec console and the AI. Give it a 30 second or so cooldown. This is IC justifiable in that there's no obvious way to transmit video over a wireless link in SS13 except directly through a borg, which presumably has special hardware dedicated for encoding and decoding. A basic helmetcam could probably send only a basic still image over analogue radio, ala http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow-scan_television, using the same principle the station bounced radio uses. If you wanted to be a complete asshole you could even have it come in a scanline at a time, or put goofy filters on it, but all the basic stuff is in photography.dm, I think. R&D would of course be able to make Advanced Helmet cams with live video functionality. Presumably you'd be able to remove the cam from the helmet by applying some tool, it'd probably be worth research whatever (or if for some reason you have a helmet and you don't want people snooping on your shit), and then snap in the new one. Clown's water flower should also fit.

*edit On reflection 5*5 kind of sucks, making it 9*9 seems fair

Jalleo · Post by **Jalleo** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:29 am #78842

^^^^ this is my idea that i mentioned on irc i think having a networked camera like the librarians that post on a special newscaster to have pictures of the wanted person told to all sec would be useful while making it a active means of camera usage that can be used later on as evidence while still creating a flawed system that means nobody can directly watch the bobbie take a bribe.

British inginuity. Stick a old camera on a helmet with a picture scanner to upload it to newscaster security. Bonus points primt out wanted pictures.

Now we need someone to code it.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:02 am #78845

>no way to transmit video over a wireless link

Do I dare need to explain how horrible this reasoning is?

There's no need to make something like this so obtuse to use to the point where its very dubious as to why its even in the game in the first place.

I have been observing several rounds and while I have seen a increase in Officer survival, and Officers overall being attacked less, I have still seen people just as easily as before kill Officers. Hell I've seen people just swoop into the Brig and kill the Warden, good luck watching yourself get killed.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:15 am #78850

I voted keep because I do think sec should be a bit more surviable than the rest of the crew from attacks.

But I think a camera is probably too good, I'd much rather have my old idea of Panic Buttons that would broadcast an officer's name and location when they were getting the shit kicked out of them (manually activated, can be done whilst stunned not not KOed/critted.)
That would give an antag of reasonable intelligence an opportunity to drag them off somewhere off cams, rather than helmet cams which are literally dragging a camera behind you.

AdenAbrafo · Post by **AdenAbrafo** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:03 pm #78866

Are security officers literally blind babies that aren't expected to look out for themself anymore?

Steelpoint wrote:Staying on topic. What I'm seeing is a clash of ideology on this issue, some people think that Officers should be easy to take out and kill stealthily, while others think that while Officers can be easily killed in stealth, but in doing so will result in Sec knowing about this and being able to respond, or something like that.

Cameras being mountable to helmets has been a very long and suggested idea for a long time, and I think it will be a good change overall.

If anyone on the station deserves at least a few moments of thought before attacking with a stun prod, I think Security gets it.

(Also, I think its too early to revert this change anyway as its only been two days)

What the hell are you even talking about? Security officers without helmet cameras aren't easy to take out and kill stealthily. If the officer lets an assistant walk up to him in the halls with a stun prod and ends up dead then it's his own fault for being incompetent.
Security officers have a ranged mist that knocks down opponents without face shielding, a gun that can shoot through glass and stun in either three or one shot, usually two batons, a literal AoE weapon that disorientates anyone around you without glasses and now with the addition of bowman headsets (which only go on one ear) you can flashbang people with the flashbang in your hand.
Attacking security officers already warrants taking a few moments to think about, so I don't know why you're saying that or how you can possibly think they don't. Saying that you've seen the Warden get killed in his office is also just a stupid justification to keep this change.

Are we going to wrap them in bubble wrap or something next?
P.S. The only way to counter the helmet cam is with an EMP and they can be upgraded to defend against that with 1 sheet of plasma. Plasma is the most abundant resource on the station, and I'm pretty sure you can find a couple sheets in maintenance just by checking crates. Why do you think this is possibly a good idea?
P.S.S. Can coders prevent other coders from singlehandedly making big changes to departments they have a bias for? You yourself admit to mostly playing HoS and being heavily biased towards security and you also admit this change is mostly for Wardens and HoS, the job you play the most. On top of being a bad change this just seems badly motivated.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:13 pm #78869

If you think that the only reason that a Security Officer dies is due to them being incompetent, or them standing still and letting people walk up to them, then you really have no idea of what your talking about.

Most sneak attacks against a Officer is usually done in motion, while walking parallel or even swinging around and walking into them, usually a Ebow or Stunprod is used to stun the Officer before unloading with a firearm, or applying cable cuffs/EMP's. That or the person waits for someone to walk in their direction and then open fires.

The element of surprise will win 100% of the time, the only people who can survive a surprise attack are the Deathsquad simply because they are unstunable by almost any metric.

Don't trivialise Officers dying to antags as due to incompetence on their part, its very fucking easy to die as a Officer. Death comes quickly to even those who remain vigilant, and that red uniform is a very bright target.

AdenAbrafo · Post by **AdenAbrafo** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:20 pm #78870

Welp, I guess ebows, stunprods and cable cuffs apparently also wreck headsets now or is that not a valid way to call for help anymore? Or are you just worried that maybe an antagonist might, oh no, drag his target somewhere else?

It literally sounds like you're just angry you got sneak attacked and killed or something because your justification for this is 'sneak attacks by antagonists with antagonist gear are strong.'

Phalanx300 · Post by **Phalanx300** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:24 pm #78872

MisterPerson wrote:
Antimattercarp wrote:You guys know that you can just change the network the helmet cams are on so that the AI has to change network to see them right? The AI seeing them seems to be the biggest complaint about them from the people I talk to, I don't like it either.
Frankly I'd rather the AI was just flat out unable to see other networks at all rather than having to go through a stupid menu, but yeah, that would be another option. Of course that kind of defeats the purpose because then only the warden can see through the cams through the shitty computer and at that point I would argue we're better off just removing the helmet and trying something else.

This sounds like a good compensation. I mainly play AI but it could probably use a nerf.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:27 pm #78873

Lets not make assumptions about my motivations, in fact if you'll check you'll see that I was not the one to propose or even code the Sec Helmet feature, that was Remie and GunHog. I simply did the light.

However, I still support SecHelm Cameras, my reason is simple. It discourages antagonists from wanting to bum rush Officers and attack them easily. While Officers are still as hard/easy to kill as they were before this change, however now the attacker has to factor in the chance that its very likely Security will know exactly where they are. I do think we should disallow the AI from viewing the cameras, so at the very least only someone with access to a Sec Camera Console can view the helm monitors.

-----

Now what I think we should examine is what new opportunities this opens. This update heavily incentives the Warden and HoS to glue themselves to their consoles, in addition we also know the Warden and HoS do not have a Sec Camera mounted on them.

I have already seen people exploit this by simply bypassing the Officers and killing the Warden/HoS in the brig, you can't monitor your own death. In addition I have not seen this update make it any harder to kill Officers, in fact it still takes around one to two minutes for Officers to reach a location, more if its in a restricted area.

danno · Post by **danno** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:31 pm #78874

babying security.
don't tell me this opens "new opportunities".
don't insult us with that shit. it doesn't open anything, it's quite blatant how it restricts antags.
to what degree may be debatable, but the fact remains that it is more restrictive to have it than not.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:53 pm #78876

You can just as easily say it's babying antags. They don't need to have an easy time killing sec officers and they now need to take more care if they want to be really stealthy but still murder a bunch of people.

Now for some reason that argument's unacceptable but the reverse is fine? I don't get it.

Should helmetcams for security be reverted