Complaints on birdshot(ADD YOUR INPUT)

[Kipse]

FEEL FREE TO ADD ANY ANECDOTES AND ISSUES YOU HAVE WITH THE MAP HERE.
Birdshot station has rarely been voted as a map up until the new voting system which applies random weights to map votes and essentially tosses majority rule out the window. To quote Jardefogle: " i said i'm not giving you back rock the vote or removing weighted map voting". This has recently put players in a position where birdshot is voted as the map despite almost always losing the majority vote. This has upset quite a few people, myself included. I can recall plenty of times many people vocally upset about birdshot being forced to be the map, with a lot of people outright wanting the shuttle to be called as soon as possible when birdshot gets voted as a map.

I was told to post here and list off issues I specifically have with the map, however I do not want to make it seem like by fixing these couple of specific issues I have picked up on that birdshot will become an enjoyable map to play on. In my opinion, the design of the map is fundamentally not fun, confusing, and all around ugly. The ethos behind a station which is 'rundown' at roundstart is not a charming or fun gimmick, considering how fast rounds degenerate into chaos, it is really just a cheap and unfun gimmick which birdshot seems to heavily use as a crutch to set it apart from better maps such as delta or meta. Going back to the specific issues I have found with birdshot so far, I will list them as follows below:
(NOTE:This is not a comprehensive list of things wrong with the map, only issues I have picked up on playing the roles I usually do.)

-Overall design of the map is confusing, cramped, and ugly, with areas such as dorms being purposefully designed to be dilapidated and dimly lit for no other reason than the heavily relied on 'rundown' gimmick
-Medbay is unnecessarily long and odd to navigate, making running to get patients in crit from other parts of medbay a lengthy task
-The supermatter engine only has a single can of portable N2 which makes recovering from potential delamination events quickly hard without straightpiping N2 into the loop
-Science has very limited oxygen cans to work with in toxins
-Brig, similar to medbay is elongated and makes heavy use of hallways that are isolating and make keeping track of criminals in brig hard
-Bridge is awkwardly designed, with the very North area having a sort of meeting area with no real purpose, and the bridge itself being off to the side almost as if an afterthought

These are just a few of the issues I personally have with the station, and as I mentioned earlier, the overall issue is that it is messily strewn about as if departments were thrown together haphazardly without efficient navigation in mind at all. The reason me and I assume a majority of players like maps such as meta and delta are the strong centralization of all the departments that seem to be built around an identifiable 'center' of the map. Birdshot is the exact opposite, with zero centralization and navigation being very unintuitive. As someone who has never made maps before, I can't pinpoint what exactly this 'intuitive' element is in maps, but as a player it is something I can readily identify and have not found in birdshot.

I'm sure a fair number of players will agree with what I have said, and I ask anyone who has had any issues with this map or just does not like it at all to leave their input here in the hopes we can get this map removed from the rotation.

[aeoaeoaeo]

idk

[trexter555]

i get that its supposed to look rundown and overall messy, but i still dont like it

[Astrogem2]

The atmos area also only has like 3 gasses in chambers so thats annoying for atmos people who want to make cool stuff I guess.

[Lilah]

I'll add my input.

• It's a little too chaotic for my tastes. I did try to genuinely use the map on the wiki and go through it as a ghost to try and understand it better, but I find myself just as confused. I still get lost because of the strange layout and (my opinion) lack of identifiable markers. Departments and even vending machines just feel so scattered. Also so many places are dark.

• There are so many random little things missing in many departments (for the 'budget cut' gimmick, I guess?)

• Medbay is very large, but also very vulnerable. Sure, it's cool to see out to space. It's less so when the antag decides to sit at the window and shoot everyone. It's way too easy to vent.

• Botany is so small that it feels like there's no room to actually move things around - this is rough when you're growing a lot of plants and don't want trays sticking together due to crosspollination.

• Botany and the kitchen not being next to each other makes me want to commit treason. The bar should be where botany is, and botany should be where the bar is. The more the cook and the botanist can interact, the better.

• Personal taste -- just not a fan of the whole 'this is disgusting because nobody wants to put money into it' concept. It adds a lot of chaos and visual complexity to an already chaotic game. Also, certain areas just aren't bothered with because of its messiness, and often if I die in those areas, I will never be found.

• The idea of a 'fixer-upper' is interesting in theory (if this is part of the design goal). Personally, one of the more fun things to do for me is derelict drone or abandoned station. However, there's no incentive to fix areas up mostly due to time constraints and confusing mapping. There are some cool things on Birdshot, but they are so out of the way and there is little reason to ever go there (the random tram south of security for example) that they're just ignored. This sort of gives me an idea: Perhaps put incentives in that make the "neglected station" feel more interesting. For example, the random tram -- what if it was just out of order, and going places was really roundabout, until engineering fixed up the tram, making it easier to get from place to place? It may also be beneficial to put materials in these areas to encourage people to start playing lego if that's the goal.

While I understand that mappers are a bit rare, I feel that keeping a station that a good majority of people are hesitant to play on is simply not great for the game itself. I don't mind the challenge of learning a map (NorthStar is a fucking fantastic map, if a little out of place in an LRP server), but when I see Birdshot is the map, I tend to just take a break.

[Astrogem2]

computer crashed while playing it earlier, i blame it.

[bean_sprout]

The server population dies every time this map gets selected.

[Chocodemon]

Mostly the same complaints that others have mentioned. I will also add that despite the cramped feel a lot of things are unnecessarily put out of the way. For example the Cargo ORM is much further away and blocked by more airlocks compared to other stations, in a much tighter space. Robotics surgery is also its own separate space which is inconvenient. It just feels like the station is inconvenience stacked up inconveniences.

[TheSmallBlue]

I cant believe Kilo was replaced with it. I hate birdshot with a passion.

The only thing Birdshot and Kilo have in common is that both have aggresive NPCs in their maintenence, and that's about where the comparisons end because Birdshot is worse in every way.
I get the idea is for it to be run-down, and a run-down theme can work, but you need clear separation between whats supposed to be actually part of a normal functioning station and whats supposed to be maintenence. In Birdshot, you try to go to the gravgen, a machine that is essential to the station, one that must be checked on semi-frequently regardless of population, and you just. Have to go through a boarded up hallway, and ignore the rooms directly around the gravgen cus surprise! npc's with guns will just two-shot you to crit.
At least in kilo you could roam around the clearly defined normal-station-y zone without worry of being shot to death, in Birdshot you cant even do that.
Most places in Birdshot straight up just feel off. You get an idea, from every other map, of where things should be. Gravgen? Around engineering. Secure tech storage? Either around engineering or around the bridge. Birdshot doesn't follow a lot of these, with the reason being "its run down!" as if the only reason those places are generally there is because those stations are supposed to be up-to-date state-of-the-art, when its really just good mapping. If most maps have the gravgen in engineering and you move it to a fucking boarded up destroyed hallway you're actively making the experience for a lot of people just. Worse!

And while most of the time you cant tell whether if you're in maintenence or the normal station, when you're actually in maintenence you're just bored out of your mind! There's just TRASH there, and the tunnels themselves are just. So weirdly positioned?? Why is there a weird nook to the right, i've seen literally no one use it. Why does a maintenence tunnel go into the ai sat from the station, it defeats the entire porpuse of the AI sat being a SAT. At that point just make it part of the station, but its still its own weird tumor out in space. i hate it so much

[BrianBackslide]

Unironic Birdshot enthusiast post incoming:
I think Birdshot is a fantastic map that goes out of its way to create opportunities for players without constraining itself to a small cramped space like Kilo/Pubby, or forcing itself to adhere to an outdated layout struggling to keep pace with new features like Meta/Delta. It has room to grow, and plenty of breathing room for the players.

It's a little too chaotic for my tastes. I did try to genuinely use the map on the wiki and go through it as a ghost to try and understand it better, but I find myself just as confused. I still get lost because of the strange layout and (my opinion) lack of identifiable markers. Departments and even vending machines just feel so scattered. Also so many places are dark.

This is actually a good thing. Do we honestly need a "meta 3.0" layout for every map? Birdshot's nonstandard design is a breath of fresh air and allows for opportunities to squirrel away and do nefarious things that aren't possible on the heavily trodden realms of Meta, Delta, and Box. You don't like the layout because you haven't taken the time to learn the layout. Furthermore, the more labrynthian design lowers security response times, giving antags more breathing room.

There are so many random little things missing in many departments (for the 'budget cut' gimmick, I guess?)

Like what? Far as I'm aware as a service/supply/medbay player, everything that is needed is there. Heck, Hydroponics gets a bottle of Unstable Mutagen, useless as it is nowadays, though.

Medbay is very large, but also very vulnerable. Sure, it's cool to see out to space. It's less so when the antag decides to sit at the window and shoot everyone. It's way too easy to vent.

Vulnerable is good design. Stuff should be breachable and infiltratable by antags, and allows for more interesting play than "fortress stations" like Meta and Delta. You also overlooked that the treatment room has shutters you can close.

Botany is so small that it feels like there's no room to actually move things around - this is rough when you're growing a lot of plants and don't want trays sticking together due to crosspollination.

It's probably a bit too small, I agree. Then again, putting up glass directional windows isn't that much of a slog.

Botany and the kitchen not being next to each other makes me want to commit treason. The bar should be where botany is, and botany should be where the bar is. The more the cook and the botanist can interact, the better.

It's far superior to both Icebox and Delta. The chef gets access to the biogenerator and it's not as long of a walk as Icebox. Could it be better? Yeah, but should it be better? As a chef main I'd take Birdshot every day over Icebox, Tram, or Delta. Birdshot's bar is also in a VERY favorable position, to the point that it actually gets customers. You could joke that Birdshot drives players to drink, but hey, at least it sees more business than Meta's bar, which is directly attached to the kitchen!

• Personal taste -- just not a fan of the whole 'this is disgusting because nobody wants to put money into it' concept. It adds a lot of chaos and visual complexity to an already chaotic game. Also, certain areas just aren't bothered with because of its messiness, and often if I die in those areas, I will never be found.

• The idea of a 'fixer-upper' is interesting in theory (if this is part of the design goal). Personally, one of the more fun things to do for me is derelict drone or abandoned station. However, there's no incentive to fix areas up mostly due to time constraints and confusing mapping. There are some cool things on Birdshot, but they are so out of the way and there is little reason to ever go there (the random tram south of security for example) that they're just ignored. This sort of gives me an idea: Perhaps put incentives in that make the "neglected station" feel more interesting. For example, the random tram -- what if it was just out of order, and going places was really roundabout, until engineering fixed up the tram, making it easier to get from place to place? It may also be beneficial to put materials in these areas to encourage people to start playing lego if that's the goal.

It could stand to be a little cleaner roundstart, particularly since the eastern half of the station is not very populated most of the time it can be difficult to justify cleaning it up. (HINT: CULTIES DO YOUR SHIT OVER THERE)

Mostly the same complaints that others have mentioned. I will also add that despite the cramped feel a lot of things are unnecessarily put out of the way. For example the Cargo ORM is much further away and blocked by more airlocks compared to other stations, in a much tighter space. Robotics surgery is also its own separate space which is inconvenient. It just feels like the station is inconvenience stacked up inconveniences.

Cargo is a pain in the butt, but I kinda like the anti-tide measures. It's MY autolathe, dammit!

In Birdshot, you try to go to the gravgen, a machine that is essential to the station, one that must be checked on semi-frequently regardless of population, and you just. Have to go through a boarded up hallway, and ignore the rooms directly around the gravgen cus surprise! npc's with guns will just two-shot you to crit.

The russian mobster NPCs are on the opposite side of the holodeck compared to the gravgen. In fact, they are so far away from the grav gen you can't even hear it. The grav gen room itself is attached to the janitorial hallway. You can ride disposals to get there! Furthermore, those are the only hostile mobs you will encounter unless you want to fight Cubie in Sec maints, which is clearly telegraphed by the boarded up airlock.

Most places in Birdshot straight up just feel off. You get an idea, from every other map, of where things should be. Gravgen? Around engineering. Secure tech storage? Either around engineering or around the bridge. Birdshot doesn't follow a lot of these, with the reason being "its run down!" as if the only reason those places are generally there is because those stations are supposed to be up-to-date state-of-the-art, when its really just good mapping. If most maps have the gravgen in engineering and you move it to a fucking boarded up destroyed hallway you're actively making the experience for a lot of people just. Worse!

Should stations all be forced to conform to the same layout? Should we all play CS_Office and De_Dust2 and Tf_2fort for the rest of our lives? I think bucking trends allows for more interesting play. By the way, the vibe was always "rusty metal deathtrap."

And while most of the time you cant tell whether if you're in maintenence or the normal station, when you're actually in maintenence you're just bored out of your mind! There's just TRASH there, and the tunnels themselves are just. So weirdly positioned?? Why is there a weird nook to the right, i've seen literally no one use it. Why does a maintenence tunnel go into the ai sat from the station, it defeats the entire porpuse of the AI sat being a SAT. At that point just make it part of the station, but its still its own weird tumor out in space. i hate it so much

The AI doesn't always have a satellite, nor is it explicitly required to have one. (See Northstar) You can easily tell when you're in maintenance too. Did you come in through a maintenance airlock to a 1 tile wide tunnel and there's no lighting? Congrats, you're in maintenance! And boring? There's tons of space for building, either by tearing down maintenance side rooms or using some of the pre-built abandoned rooms. Hell, there's a BARREL OF GUNPOWDER just ripe for the taking. There's easy access to a foam force SMG that you can fill with riot darts and wreck shit. THERE'S A FREE CHEM DISPENSER BOARD IN MAINT.

If you don't like Birdshot, that's fine enough and we're each entitled to have our subjective opinion. I, myself, dislike Meta and Delta for being too coddled. I don't even disagree that it looks ugly and could use some sprucing up so that cleaning the station is less of a herculean task. But please, give it a chance and try to look at what you can do with the map rather than what the map is. There's a lot there to work with!

[celularLAmp]

I play perma prisoner and I hate the fact that security has to take a tram to get to me and also the fact that I cannot escape without having to space myself.

[TheSmallBlue]

Should stations all be forced to conform to the same layout? Should we all play CS_Office and De_Dust2 and Tf_2fort for the rest of our lives? I think bucking trends allows for more interesting play. By the way, the vibe was always "rusty metal deathtrap."

There's a difference between conforming to the same layout and following good placement guidelines. I'm not saying every staiton should be dust2, im saying you shouldnt put bombiste A in the fucking Terrorists spawn. I love it when a map is non-conforming, Northstar is just straight up my favorite map, but northstar just doesnt follow the logical guidelines set in place by other maps.

The AI doesn't always have a satellite, nor is it explicitly required to have one. (See Northstar) You can easily tell when you're in maintenance too. Did you come in through a maintenance airlock to a 1 tile wide tunnel and there's no lighting? Congrats, you're in maintenance! And boring? There's tons of space for building, either by tearing down maintenance side rooms or using some of the pre-built abandoned rooms. Hell, there's a BARREL OF GUNPOWDER just ripe for the taking. There's easy access to a foam force SMG that you can fill with riot darts and wreck shit. THERE'S A FREE CHEM DISPENSER BOARD IN MAINT.

I agree on the AI sat bit, it doesn't have to be a satellite, but either make it a satellite or not. Birdshot makes this weird thing of it being a satelite, but it also being connected via public maintenence tunnels directly to the station, defeating the purpose of it being a satellite. Just make it part of the station.
You're right, theres a clear distinction between maintenence and the normal hallways (though the only difference between the destroyed hallways and maintenence is the occasional tiling and it being 2 tiles wide), my bad, the point i was trying to make was how uniniviting the destroyed hallways are. If you join as a janitor, midround, and you're trying to find the closet, why would go through the destroyed hallway? What does a destroyed hallway mean? Especially when compared to the pristine hallway to its left? A destroyed hallway is a big "DO NOT COME HERE" sign, and it just so happens this sign is placed right in front of where people are supposed to go, like the jani closet or, again, the fucking gravgen.
And while there is cool stuff in maint, why would go in it? The actual maintenence tunnels in this map are TINY, some of the entrances straight up dont have a maintenence door so you cant tell whether if you're going into a room or into maintenence at a glance. And when you do go in it you'll eventually find locked doors, or rooms with just useless trash, or you'll find an, out of nowhere, pristine church like environment for no discernable reason. WHy are there working, well lit, tube pods leading to a cranny to the right side of the station IN MAINTENENCe in a bit thats supposed to be ABANDONED. It just makes 0 sense.

[BrianBackslide]

I think the grav gen being out of the way and infinitely more sabotagable is beneficial to the RP and antag gameplay. At the very least it's more protected from meteors and external threats like nukies. As to the AI chamber, it's honestly one of the more well protected ones too, unless you happen to have mining tools at least. I don't see a problem with it being a weird semi-sat when you're typically only going to be able to breach it from the front.

I agree that the map could be more inviting, though in a less "wrecked" and more "unmaintained" way, as well as more cohesive. I think this might be less of an issue if construction and repair weren't more of a time consuming slog. I don't agree about the maintenance tunnels being tiny, there's plenty of maintenance, moreso than Meta or Delta with plenty of hidey holes as well. It could do with a few more turnarounds and a few 2x3 or 3x4 spaces that aren't rooms, though.

[celularLAmp]

I think the grav gen being out of the way and infinitely more sabotagable is beneficial to the RP and antag gameplay. At the very least it's more protected from meteors and external threats like nukies. As to the AI chamber, it's honestly one of the more well protected ones too, unless you happen to have mining tools at least. I don't see a problem with it being a weird semi-sat when you're typically only going to be able to breach it from the front.

I agree that the map could be more inviting, though in a less "wrecked" and more "unmaintained" way, as well as more cohesive. I think this might be less of an issue if construction and repair weren't more of a time consuming slog. I don't agree about the maintenance tunnels being tiny, there's plenty of maintenance, moreso than Meta or Delta with plenty of hidey holes as well. It could do with a few more turnarounds and a few 2x3 or 3x4 spaces that aren't rooms, though.

"unless you happen to have mining tools" they're very easily printable and not hard at all to obtain. You could even settle for public mining pickaxes if you didn't wanna go get a drill. Science can also print plasma cutters iirc.

[Zytolg]

Man, It's Christmas already. Time flies.

Since I'm here anyways, I might as well give an update on the status of Birdshot Station as a whole, since when it shipped, I promised all sorts of lofty updates for 2023 and all's been quiet on that front since. I'm still working on a complete redo of engineering. Normally I can get departmental reworks out in about a month but Birdshot has been a different story. I've gotten stuck, hopped to a different project, restarted, and repeated in a vicious cycle this year. I might have something on it for January, but then again I might not. Engineering as it exists on Birdshot is actually a recreation of Birdboat's then adapted for modern use with the Zytolg Classic. The current iteration back home on the mothership features a 3rd tram, a disjointed exo-atmos connected via maint, and then a central air hub. I'm iffy on it, but it's progress. I think in 1 more iteration I'll have something I can stick with and truly representative of Birdshot. Engine will also see some fine-tuning although I really haven't gotten around to that. Ideas, sure but that's what's what at the current moment in time.

After Enigneering makes it in, I want to overhaul both service and science. I think there's a lot cool ideas going on in both sections of the station, but I didn't really allow myself all that much time to sit on it. Birdshot had a window to get in, and I wanted to take a shot of a lifelong goal of my contributions into tgstation. I am happy that so many players feel strongly as they do about Birdshot because it means I did an effective job at creating an impactful map. Is it perfect, of course not. Will it improve, yeah, and with time. I've been exploring around with some ideas over in Shiptest, but that's neither here or what you probably care for. So I'll outline the general plan.

-Engineering Makes it it. This is likely permanent unless someone decides to obliterate the concept of Supermatter Engines.
-I begin the MASSIVE undertaking of redoing Dorms and Science. This will encompass half the station. Lots of extra fluff is likely to also be relocated and shuffled about.
-I want to revisit Security at some point. I like the general feel of it but I think there are certain elements that could be better explored.
-Service expansion. I honestly haven't thought this far ahead, but some of this will occur during the great dorms rework.


I know just about every complaint players have for Birdshot. I also hear just about everything they love about it. This is about doing what's right for Birdshot as a station. Sometimes explorations don't work out as we foresaw, intended, or wanted. Many of the times they don't. There's a reason Metastation is the most popular map in rotation. There's a certain logic to it, and many of you find that agreeable. I'll be maintaining Birdshot until it's eventual removal during the great mapping disaster or tgstation13 (or until someone just makes something better). It's a lot of work, and I owe a big thanks to those brake souls who have been making sure the damn thing functions while I fiddle with a mallet.

Despite all my planning for the future, I'm only working on one thing at a time. If someone else comes along and happens to do something that I planned to do, their work is very likely to stay or be adapted into the next iteration. I don't want people to think that because I'm Birdshot's creator, I own full created authority over it. I gave those rights up when I contributed it to tgstation and at most, Creative Direction is a courtesy, not an expectation.

Now I'm being summoned to the table. I hope you all find yourselves well this Christmas Eve.
Happy Holidays
-Z

[Blacklist897]

could we perhaps remove it from rotation pending rework, im sick of the server pop dropping by 30 each time someone forces this map through on a 7% percent vote, the fucking maxcap size barrel of gunpowder in maints also is not helping

[Kipse]

could we perhaps remove it from rotation pending rework, im sick of the server pop dropping by 30 each time someone forces this map through on a 7% percent vote, the fucking maxcap size barrel of gunpowder in maints also is not helping

Absolutely agree with this. If there's a select few birdshot fans actually in existence who decide to go onto bagil and decide to vote birdshot together, then whatever, that's fine for them to do. What's really annoying is forcing a clear MAJORITY of players to dislike this map to play it because of some pseudo-"voting" system that just disregards what the majority of players want anyways.
I really thought of this map as a dumb novelty that wasn't something I would ever want to play on, and it was pretty benign to me. But forcing it through the new voting system (which headcoders have blatantly said is NOT going away) makes it so that the only solution is to get rid of the map entirely.

[Mothblocks]

the metrics show that the population does not drop by a significant amount (accountable for by noise) when birdshot is picked. if you want it removed from rotation then you will need something that can't be objectively disproven lke that

[DaydreamIQ]

the metrics show that the population does not drop by a significant amount (accountable for by noise) when birdshot is picked. if you want it removed from rotation then you will need something that can't be objectively disproven lke that

Does that include observers/roundstart suicides though?

[Super Aggro Crag]

its a shit map

[Redrover1760]

The disposals network fucking sucks, try riding down it one shift. All the garbage gets yeetes past cargo office cause the chutes are too close together. Then it heads to jani office and then some weird space garbage area with conveyers.

Also, I hate unremoveable floor decals and birdshot is littered with em. Make it so the jani can fix em and I'll like Birdshot, but for now its perma messy and annoying to play on with no way to fix it if you wanted to.

[Kipse]

the metrics show that the population does not drop by a significant amount (accountable for by noise) when birdshot is picked. if you want it removed from rotation then you will need something that can't be objectively disproven lke that

As nice as it is to have a solid statistic to go off of, you can't quantity player enjoyment this way. Is there any way to account for how many players begrudgingly play on birdshot because basil is birdshot too and they're just waiting it out for a map change? I can tell you anecdotally that people complain about birdshot despite being stuck playing it. In this context, I don't think pure numbers is a good way to measure how successful a map is. A lot of players (myself included) just idle when birdshot is selected and then actually start playing again when a new map gets selected. There's too many lurking variables and unquantifiable aspects to really rely on statistics here imo.

[iwishforducks]

the metrics show that the population does not drop by a significant amount (accountable for by noise) when birdshot is picked. if you want it removed from rotation then you will need something that can't be objectively disproven lke that

it’d probably be best to put up a map poll to get a better consensus

[RedBaronFlyer]

could we perhaps remove it from rotation pending rework, im sick of the server pop dropping by 30 each time someone forces this map through on a 7% percent vote, the fucking maxcap size barrel of gunpowder in maints also is not helping

Absolutely agree with this. If there's a select few birdshot fans actually in existence who decide to go onto bagil and decide to vote birdshot together, then whatever, that's fine for them to do. What's really annoying is forcing a clear MAJORITY of players to dislike this map to play it because of some pseudo-"voting" system that just disregards what the majority of players want anyways.
I really thought of this map as a dumb novelty that wasn't something I would ever want to play on, and it was pretty benign to me. But forcing it through the new voting system (which headcoders have blatantly said is NOT going away) makes it so that the only solution is to get rid of the map entirely.

A few days ago delta or icebox (I forget) had nearly 80% of the votes, but it went to birdshot. I'm so glad that they simulated what it's like to vote in a gerrymandered US state. /s

[Mothblocks]

the metrics show that the population does not drop by a significant amount (accountable for by noise) when birdshot is picked. if you want it removed from rotation then you will need something that can't be objectively disproven lke that

As nice as it is to have a solid statistic to go off of, you can't quantity player enjoyment this way. Is there any way to account for how many players begrudgingly play on birdshot because basil is birdshot too and they're just waiting it out for a map change? I can tell you anecdotally that people complain about birdshot despite being stuck playing it. In this context, I don't think pure numbers is a good way to measure how successful a map is. A lot of players (myself included) just idle when birdshot is selected and then actually start playing again when a new map gets selected. There's too many lurking variables and unquantifiable aspects to really rely on statistics here imo.

im saying nothing more in my post than "the pop doesn't drop off when birdshot is picked, so do not try to use that as an objective argument against it". remember that i'm the one who asked you make this post

[dendydoom]

there's a lot of excellent feedback in this thread and honestly it shows how in infancy we really are as a community wrt map design. shit has not really changed fundamentally since box. it's highlighting a lot of fascinating questions: how much should a map be in support of a crew's efforts? how much of it should be an obstacle? can a map have elements of "antagonism" in itself as if it were a character in its own right?

i like birdshot a lot. there are things i would tweak about it - almost all of them have been brought up already - but most importantly i don't think we should shy away from experimentation like this. we will never know what works and what doesn't if we're not willing to field test stuff.

[RedBaronFlyer]

could we perhaps remove it from rotation pending rework, im sick of the server pop dropping by 30 each time someone forces this map through on a 7% percent vote, the fucking maxcap size barrel of gunpowder in maints also is not helping

Absolutely agree with this. If there's a select few birdshot fans actually in existence who decide to go onto bagil and decide to vote birdshot together, then whatever, that's fine for them to do. What's really annoying is forcing a clear MAJORITY of players to dislike this map to play it because of some pseudo-"voting" system that just disregards what the majority of players want anyways.
I really thought of this map as a dumb novelty that wasn't something I would ever want to play on, and it was pretty benign to me. But forcing it through the new voting system (which headcoders have blatantly said is NOT going away) makes it so that the only solution is to get rid of the map entirely.

A few days ago delta or icebox (I forget) had nearly 80% of the votes, but it went to birdshot. I'm so glad that they simulated what it's like to vote in a gerrymandered US state. /s

I meant that the vote that got 80% was icebox or delta, this is why you shouldn’t write posts while still recovering from anesthesia.

[Xkallubar]

As a Chaplain main, Birdshot is terrible. The chapel is literally an empty room full of grass, and your office is on the other side of the hall, is cramped as hell, and has your altar in it for some reason. The chapel morgue/crematorium is connected directly to sec, and I don't like sec that close to my office. It is useful for quickly getting dead lings cremated, but that's it. Your office and morgue have ZERO privacy, people can see everything happening in your private quarters from the front door. On birdshot, I only go to my chapel when I need to use the altar or morgue, that's it.
I
I'd prefer that birdshot is replaced with pubby, because the monastery 'mini station' with the chapel, library, it's own dorms, kitchen, and botany, is absolutely amazing and is the perfect playground for gimmicks. It's the best thing about pubby. I would like birdshot, or any station more if the pubby monastery was plastered on to it.

[PJ2005]

Birdshot is messy, chaotic, and gives me a killer headache to try to navigate at all.

[Kitfox]

I hate the layout, I hate the random fuck you enemies in maint, I hate the perma tram, and I hate the asinine fucking medbay island.

[DrOof]

Where the absolute fuck is the grav gen? Why the fuck is it in dorms? Everything about birdshot is intentionally dogshit. Medical is a glass bowl disconnected from the station. Perma looks like it was supposed to be the AI sat but they just decided to make it a prison for some fucking reason. Atmos is so bad I can’t manage words for it. The SM is 2x3. And service is a cluster fuck. I get it’s supposed to be a run-down broken station, but did we really replace kilo with this?

[Drag]

I genuinely despise birdshot and I will always force another map if I see it wins the piss poor weighted random vote.

[Kipse]

I genuinely despise birdshot and I will always force another map if I see it wins the piss poor weighted random vote.

You are a hero and it is nice knowing admins share the sentiment too.

[RedBaronFlyer]

With weighted random making it feel like birdshot is played 40% of the time, I absolutely fucking despise the map to my core now. It's ass, it sucks, it's design is nonsensical, it's ugly, department design makes no sense, everything is everywhere with no thought process as to why department placement can work (such as botany being far away from the kitchen), the chapel is ugly, it's both cramped and has massive spaces with nothing in it, the station is just gross, medbay is in a dumb layout, there's massive spaces that seem solely designed for antags to set up, which isn't an issue except for the fact that said spaces take up more space than the actual crew spaces.

90% of the time the only reason I see it win is when weighted random chooses it. I'm so glad I get to engage in a voting system in real life that gives the middle finger to what the majority voted and now I can play a space game that also gives the middle finger to what the majority wants, all in some absolutely moronic attempt to make people like the map by playing it more.

The previous system of "you can't play the same map too often/back to back" worked far better than this.

YOU WILL PLAY THE BIRDSHOT, YOU WILL NOT HAVE LOADOUTS, YOU WILL BE HAPPY!

What 99.9% of map votes end up being:

[winterseasalt]

i really dont understand why this map is still in the game when literally little to no one likes it, everytime it gets selected the population drops by a decent amount (even if its said that this isnt true i literally have seen it myself), everyone complains, no one is happy, and they just want it to end as soon as possible
personally i dont play super important roles but the complaints i do have from my experience:
medical fucking sucks and feels weirdly cramped, i dont know why theres giant bushes in there, i wish the medical supplies were like.. closer to the main medbay room too? and not to mention it has glass walls making it very easy for antags to shoot through them and absolutely obliterate people inside
and why is morgue not even in the medical department, its like right outside for some reason.. and its really tiny too, only two corpses spawn in there which makes it even more likely for only human corpses to spawn (annoying for autopsies)
it also sucks that genetics doesnt have a desk to give people outside of science genetic injectors- and also inconvenient for people who need things from genetics (i.e monkey cubes, mutadone, or literally just yknow.. injectors)
common complaints i will also reiterate from others:
- botany not being by the kitchen
- service is a clusterfuck (i wish the service places were at least more connected)
- gravgen in dorms????????????????????
- like what redbaronflyer says it feels like antag spaces take up more room than actual crew spaces, everything feels so fucking cramped everywhere
if theres some things i like its the bar and kitchen builds but thats about it

[oranges]

everytime it gets selected the population drops by a decent amount (even if its said that this isnt true i literally have seen it myself),

[Blacklist897]

birdshot allways has some asshole try to dlam the sm 10 minutes in

[winterseasalt]

everytime it gets selected the population drops by a decent amount (even if its said that this isnt true i literally have seen it myself),

tbf i dont think it happens on really high pop but it definitely drops on lower

[RedBaronFlyer]

everytime it gets selected the population drops by a decent amount (even if its said that this isnt true i literally have seen it myself),

tbf i dont think it happens on really high pop but it definitely drops on lower

Yeah if birdshot rolls during peak pop it doesn’t kill the server but if it's near the end of highpop hours I do see a lot of “Oh it’s birdshot guess I’m calling it a night early then” and the pop drops off earlier than normal on those nights.

[Kipse]

Is this shitty map gone yet

[8bot]

birdshot makes me not play whenever it's up
it's just bad and not fun, bring back kilo

[TheFinalPotato]

No