AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

[bandit]

Bottom post of the previous page:

I agree with all the people suggesting removing the AI. Rounds tend to get more interesting when for whatever reason there is no AI, it's why I often try to destroy them instead of subverting on the rare chance I get traitor. Remove the AI satellite, remove the round start AI, remove the RD's AI core board. Keep AI cores as something you can build if you do research and loot the vault/get a mining delivery. Lets at least have a trial period for having no round start AI.

Two problems with this:

- "Keep ______ as something you can build" results in it never being built. See, for instance, telescience.

- Similarly, trial periods are never trials. They are always permanent.

[Erbbu]

- "Keep ______ as something you can build" results in it never being built. See, for instance, telescience.

Well, the purpose is to have less AIs after all. I don't think people will completely forgo building them regardless, I'd imagine having an omnipresent eye on the station to be still alluring enough to the right scientist. Yet if they are built they are probably also less secure so taking them out is more feasible. Plus you still won't have an AI until the round has gone on for a while.

- Similarly, trial periods are never trials. They are always permanent.

It doesn't need to be a hard rule though.

[CPTANT]

One of the things that I feel gives the AI way too much influence over how the game progresses is the abillity to instantly call the shuttle. Even if an AI has lost all physical control it will just call the shuttle and deny the situation. This makes more a more open destructive traitor approach without AI control downright IMPOSSIBLE. The Ai will just go "nope", law 2 shuttle call. Removing AI shuttle call will let rounds last a bit longer than the first moment an assistant screams "AI CALL THE SHUTTLE CUZ HUMAN HARM" (every round is human harm).



Another thing is that the AI is way too informed about its own camera's being sabotaged, the AI shouldn't be it's own watchdog. security and the detective should be the one investigating camera's being cut. Cutting or EMPing camera's is now basically NEVER utilised by traitors because it INSTANTLY draws the AI's attention on you instead of avoiding it.

I am stronlgy in favour of removing camera alerts.

And let electric storms knock out camera's to create blind spots and hide actual sabotage.

[PKPenguin321]

imo, removing AI tracking and forcing the AI to manually track people would go a long way.

also make EMPs not trigger camera alarms.

this is actually exactly what i said, someone just do this (miauw pls) and see how the balance plays out because i'm sure it'll be pretty good for balance between the AI and a standard traitor

[Shadowlight213]

I'm going to have to agree with summoner here. The AI's strongest ability is information gathering, crowd control, and communication. Alone, it is pretty damn weak.
An AI without sec/borgs/validhunters at its disposal is extremely weak. If your opponent has acquired tools, you pretty much can only slow them down. Trying to stop an antag as a lowpop AI is probably one of the most futile things you can do.
Additionally, you have to consider that, in a way, AI laws and silicon policy FORCE the AI to go validhunt. You literally can't not validhunt someone who you see causing harm, otherwise you're breaking your laws.

Finally, probably the reason so many AI's validhunt, is that there's nothing else for them to do. Most jobs have some sort of freedom or minigame to keep players from going braindead from boredom, AI's don't have this.
Ais cannot go on space adventures, build things, participate in off-station admin events, do research, or even change their job to something else. They just sit there, opening doors, checking for bodies, and hoping that something goes down or they get subverted so they actually can have some purpose to their lives.

[Miauw]

adding a specific traitor item to counter this is a terrible idea because it forces traitors to use ONLY that item unless they want to continue to be assblasted by the AI, and it also means lings are just as bad off as before.

[Amelius]

adding a specific traitor item to counter this is a terrible idea because it forces traitors to use ONLY that item unless they want to continue to be assblasted by the AI, and it also means lings are just as bad off as before.

That's why we suggested that it would be either free, or in-built to the PDA.

[Incomptinence]

adding a specific traitor item to counter this is a terrible idea because it forces traitors to use ONLY that item unless they want to continue to be assblasted by the AI, and it also means lings are just as bad off as before.

Deeply wrong. Traitors don't have to spend all their telecrystals at once as long as they have the pda on them then can just punch their code in and spawn it as needed.

Changelings might needs a free power but they can similarly cope.

[MisterPerson]

Just gonna go on a big ramble and be an idea guy. I don't want to see the AI go but I do agree it has too much reach, sight, and secret tattling abilities to make it too good at being security instead of an assistant, so I'm seeking to limit some of those problems. I feel the problem is lack of counterplay or other interesting player-player interactions moreso than abilities being out of scope or overreaching, but I do feel some straight ability nerfs couldn't hurt.

Just gonna get this out of the way now; removing the tracking links, mouse shortcuts, or freelook is off the table. Making the UI more clunky as a balancer is absolutely fucking retarded. The user experience should be as streamlined as possible no matter what. The rest of the game needs to adapt to the AI controls being better, not the other way around.

With that settled, first up is the AI's active abilities. I'm going to focus on door bolting because it's the most direct, powerful, uninteractive, and unfun ability the AI has.

• A delay on AI commands could be interesting. For example, you ctrl-click a door to bolt it and the bolting only goes through after 3-4 seconds and a progress bar appears so people don't just think the game is lagging. Would make the AI worse in high-speed combat which means the AI has to lean on sec or be more cunning and plan ahead.
• AI's losing bolting/unbolting outright is another option, or they could unbolt but not bolt. Would even be willing to try removing door opening/closing too, although it'd be a shame to lose door crushing.
• Fire alarms are also problematic and need to be handled.
• I don't consider shuttle calling to be an issue. Someone has to end the round!

Next is the AI's cameras. I'm just going to straight up say the real problem is an everpresent always-available ability to scream for help over the radio, not the AI's ability to track people after they shout, but here's some camera commentary.

• Blindspots are a rough issue. Too many and the AI isn't having any fun because it can't see anything. Additionally all publicly-visible rooms will have the same end result, cameras or no cameras, so places like chemistry are still going to be an issue either way. Still, there's a couple superfluous cameras in maint, construction areas and maint-accessible-only rooms. Don't expect massive game changes though.
• I'm not sold on a random event knocking out cameras because I feel it would be the same as the one that knocks out all the lights. Most people don't really like that and just find it annoying. Willing to try it though.
• Cameras should shut off when the power's low and shouldn't be able to see in the dark. Might not be terribly feasible with the way cameras work but what do I know? Gives obvious and generally accessible ways to defeat the AI when you shut off the power.
• People should be able to break cameras with literally anything in a couple of hits. Gives everyone good counterplay to cameras. Fixing them would require welding. I'm concerned about shitters knocking out the cameras in the main halls. No idea what would be the best way to counteract that.
• I'd like to see cameras need only a wirecutter to disable again and remove the wire panel. Doesn't add anything, needlessly complex, makes cutting cameras take longer. Kind of an extension of the above point.
• Removing tracking is an option, although it feels more like a QoL feature moreso than a powerful ability. As such I'm against removing it. At the very least double-clicking someone to track them should stay and I could probably cook up something hacky to make tracking only work when the quarry actually comes on screen if people want.
• Links in the output should show up the same color no matter if they've been clicked or not. Somewhat counteracts the voice disguises being useless problem, although I think aran has a better fix. Very nasty bug.
• Suit sensors tracking needs to be mentioned. I'd really like to make it less clunky (people in suit sensors are always visible even in static) but I have fears it would get too powerful and thus might be better off getting removed. Issue for later since that's a long-term goal.

Finally the last issue is the simplest; the AI has the means and motive to tattle on everyone. I think the fact said tattling is done without the other guy knowing is the real issue. At least if you know the AI saw you and told security then you can do something about it instead of getting blindsided and not having any options, which is unfun for everyone. It's also an option to just make the AI less cooperative with heads, sec, and cyborgs so they'd stop forming a shitty antag-hunting superteam.

• Could remove the AI's radio stuff so it can't hear and talk on sec/command/etc. Reduces the AI's ability to tattle without the victim at least knowing about it. Would require removing NTSL or else you can emulate with a script however and its PDA so it can't just PDA the HoS and get the same effect.
• I'm all for changing AI laws so the AI isn't inclined to follow order for and give directions to sec and the heads of staff, although that's a topic for another thread.
• I feel that the AI shouldn't have slaved cyborgs. The cyborgs should have a chance to be a traitor. Reduces the AI's power via weakening its borg army.

Antags should receive much better anti-AI abilities compared to what they have now and also compared to the rest of the crew. Good generalized options are nice, but antag-specific abilities can afford to be really strong here.

• Emags should unbolt doors and then open them or just unbolt if the door has no power as a direct counter to door bolting.
• EMP's in general kind of need a rework on their purpose and such, but I do generally feel it should be an anti-AI tool.
• EMP's should always unbolt and open doors, possibly combined with electrifying them.
• As for the cameras I think EMP's should still make camera alarms but they also should knock out cameras in a much bigger area so EMP's become a good anti-camera tool that still gives the crew a hint of where to go so they at least have a chance of getting involved without making it boringly obvious where shit's going down. So instead of "oh the camera in the RD's office is out, sec go to the RD's office", you'd get "all the cameras in escape arm are out, security go search the area". Plus any further activity in the area is blinded which makes it interesting for everyone.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

I agree that readding traitor cyborgs is a good idea.

[DemonFiren]

The problem with traitor cyborgs is that they might go overboard against the AI, instantly ggnoreing it unless it constantly watches its core.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Thats the price you pay for spending 99% of your rounds as an almost-untouchable instant overwatch with an army of loyal servants at your validhunting beck-and-call.

And the AI isn't really a threat to traitor borgs at all, since it can't be blown or locked down for more than a few seconds, and its cam disables once it goes beserk.

[Arete]

• Emags should unbolt doors and then open them or just unbolt if the door has no power as a direct counter to door bolting.

I generally agree with what you're saying, but be careful with this one. As traitor, I'll often hack a door in order to bolt it closed, then use an emag to make it impossible to open again without completely deconstructing the door. It's a very powerful option for slowing down the station's ability to react to your mischief, and I'd hate to see it go away due to a flawed assumption that traitors always want doors open.

[DemonFiren]

Well, then give emags a toggle.

[CPTANT]

Of course the problem is going to be to select a package of measures that is not overkill but is still effective in toning down the AI's power. There are pretty good suggestions in this thread.

I would suggest the following and see how it plays out:

1. Add a delay to AI bolting doors (4 seconds or so with a progress bar, AI can still start multiple boltings at once)
2. Remove camera alarms both from emp and cutting them. (AI should actively look out for its own systems being sabotaged, not being magically told so.)
3. Make electric storms have a decent chance of knocking out camera's. (50% or so)

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Removing camera alarms from AI notification is literally a one-line fix in camera.dm

I'm working on an event which knocks out cameras

It'd be a pain in the ass (for an unrobust coder like me) to add it to electric storms, because electric storms work by blowing the lighting systems via the APCs, just like the AI can.

[Amelius]

I think what MP said is way too excessive in terms of damage done to AI capability. Like, I could understand a select few of them, but all of them would make AI even more declawed than it already is. I mean, if AI couldn't open or bolt doors, then it may as well be a glorified antag caller. I can see the AI getting REALLY fucking bored, really easily. You won't even have the 'ye old 'AI open door' nagging. The AI will only be validhunting, because that's literally all you're permitting it to do with those changes. Then it'll get nerfed again because 'AIs are validhunting too much'.

Also, always ask yourself - would it be in the interest of any traitor to subvert the AI, without XYZ powers. Keep in mind that no one crewmember/antag is intended to be able to defeat the AI without preparation and robustness. The AI has never been seen as 'just another player', but rather, a monolith that can spell the doom of the station. That's why the omnipresent risk of the AI being subverted is so terrifying, but straight out declawing the AI is going to damage that aspect of the game in a major way.

I suggest starting out with small, minor things (EMPs not triggering fifty billion alarms for instance - just why?), or the traitor unbolter. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, since you can't really argue that lings, or any other antag but traitor (and maybe abductor, but they're still brand-new) have even the slightest problem with the AI, unless they're ridiculously unrobust, at least in the case of ling (given their ability to switch identities, that one anti-AI ability on top of the EMP shout, AND monkey form to escape an area if you're stupid and don't have tools on you before you decided to murderbone), in which case, serves them right. Traitor has been the only marked antag that has problems with AI, and that's because traitors are underpowered as hell to begin with currently. That should be resolved by buffing traitors, not by removing/gutting the AI in totality, so that it's literally a punishment role.

Also of note, antag rates WERE decreased somewhat by SoS. Up them a bit and you might see a little more chaos, and antags having an overall easier time as a result.

[MisterPerson]

I didn't mean to suggest we do all of those things. I was just tossing possibilities out. I do generally agree that keeping the AI fun for the AI is #1 priority and starting small is better than sweeping changes.

• Emags should unbolt doors and then open them or just unbolt if the door has no power as a direct counter to door bolting.

I generally agree with what you're saying, but be careful with this one. As traitor, I'll often hack a door in order to bolt it closed, then use an emag to make it impossible to open again without completely deconstructing the door. It's a very powerful option for slowing down the station's ability to react to your mischief, and I'd hate to see it go away due to a flawed assumption that traitors always want doors open.

Well an emag isn't going to open a welded door, now is it? And in any case it's all the more reason to split emags into two items, but that's definitely not a conversation for here.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Emags aren't designed to be escape mechanisms when you've been busted really, though. They're smash-and-grab, slash-and-burn approach which is really obvious, only somewhat reliable, and leaves a trail of fucked up behind it.

Right? Emags do NOT need a buff, anyway. They're already the most needed item.

[Incomptinence]

Emags are already quite strong against the AI I mean it can't bolt you in when all the doors are broken open.

[Bombadil]

Escaping on shuttle solo would be impossible if you made emags unbolt doors

[Shadowlight213]

Not sure if it's been suggested already, but why not add like a 5 or 10 second delay to the AI radio tracking links. It wouldn't interfere too much with "AI door", but if someone yells for help, their attacker will have some time to drag their victim off cameras before the AI can see where they are.

[MisterPerson]

Not sure if it's been suggested already, but why not add like a 5 or 10 second delay to the AI radio tracking links. It wouldn't interfere too much with "AI door", but if someone yells for help, their attacker will have some time to drag their victim off cameras before the AI can see where they are.

Could scale the time with how far away the AI is from the current location of the quarry. Fluff is trivial. Would have to be longer than 5 seconds to really matter though and any longer than 10 is pretty damn long for "mundane" usage like door opening and such.

[Blonkz]

AI /Borg player's perspective:

I get validhunt-laws uploaded in 1/3rd of the rounds.
There's a server-policy forcing me to allow such uploads, at the threat of a silicon-/server-ban.
Players freak out both in IC and OOC if you do not let them validhunt (read kill) / do not validhunt yourself
Yet this thread exists. Thats sad and hilarious.

Most players escalate their interaction with the AI instantly without any regards as to why.
Door not opened quick enough? Don't realise what's happening and why but antagonize AI.
Order refused because XYZ? Don't realise what's happening and why but antagonize AI.
Anything that happes you dislike? Don't realise what's happening and why but antagonize AI.
This thread is the same. Don't realise what's happening and why but antagonize AI.

Anyhow, while I think the reason this thread exists is hilarious and mistaken. The real reason the AI is problematic is that:
a) It reads the chat and responds to it
b) as it has no personal agenda / is not busy arming up for valids actualy pays attention to chat

Those things would not be problematic, if not for the fact that you can not know if the AI is watching you and therefore no matter how well executed your perfect plan is there's a chance the AI will dick you over. I agree that the AI is too powerful, even despite that. Bolting all of sec/science or bridge in under 5 second is not okay.

Suggestions:
- Add LEGAL items that are available to all of the crew.
- Door unbolt-and-power-items & unshock item
- Door open item, that alarms via common that it'S being used.
- Delay camera warnings by 5-10 seconds
- Add Camera-Controll to APC's*

Add items that can be bought from TC's and weaker clonses that can be table-crafted (not via science please):
- Radio-deactivator (if you're too dumb to use EMP and want to have a fully loaded aresnal of laserguns in your backpack)
- Camerahack displays empty Room to the AI*

AI-Changes:
- Remove Paladin (lawset is both validhunt and hurt no one ever and also sucks)
- Remove Robocop (lawset sucks)
- Forbid the AI / borgs from hurting changelings in human form, even if it has seen a transformation prior
- Get rid of the "you must allow other people to force you to play in a certain way" policy, because it violates serverrule 1

*) Adding a Poweroption to APC's for cameras could let you go in and out without the AI seeing you and since APC's are outside of the department you could prepare that stealthily.

[DemonFiren]

I think that 'door open item' is called a pAI. And the other items are called 'a filled toolbelt and gloves'.

[Oldman Robustin]

Regardless of what person's thinks, someone yelling "HALP!" and having the AI bolting the antag in and calling for sec, shouting the identity and location of the bad guy, all within a few seconds...

That's precisely the AI's biggest problem.

[Amelius]

I think that 'door open item' is called a pAI. And the other items are called 'a filled toolbelt and gloves'.

A PAI takes minutes to open a single door. PAIs are hilariously underpowered (and thus underused), if you didn't notice. Only good for calling bloody murder.

[Amnestik]

You stand still for three seconds with wirecutters, snip. It wouldn't be a huge nerf but it would allow people to create blindspots more easily.

I like this idea. Simple and effective. I know we had this in the past and it was replaced with the hacking we have today, but that was back when AI was clunky as fuck to play and instant camera disabling was OP. Now AI controls are far more streamlined, with hotkeys and the AI eye. Wirecutters should still send an alarm to the AI, though, given their commonality. You should have to use a multitool for silent disabling.

You should be able to break cameras with enough hits of a melee weapon too, and emag them if you can't already.

[PKPenguin321]

Regardless of what person's thinks, someone yelling "HALP!" and having the AI bolting the antag in and calling for sec, shouting the identity and location of the bad guy, all within a few seconds...

That's precisely the AI's biggest problem.

miauw's/my suggestion actually covers this pretty solidly and i don't know why you guys are all disregarding it and throwing out a million weird ideas
just remove automatic tracking, no more jump-to lists, no more links to follow people who speak over the radio
AI being omnipresent is pretty huge when you consider that it can teleport at will with tracking, so just remove it's ability to teleport

[Oldman Robustin]

Regardless of what person's thinks, someone yelling "HALP!" and having the AI bolting the antag in and calling for sec, shouting the identity and location of the bad guy, all within a few seconds...

That's precisely the AI's biggest problem.

miauw's/my suggestion actually covers this pretty solidly and i don't know why you guys are all disregarding it and throwing out a million weird ideas
just remove automatic tracking, no more jump-to lists, no more links to follow people who speak over the radio
AI being omnipresent is pretty huge when you consider that it can teleport at will with tracking, so just remove it's ability to teleport

I support this idea too but there's definitely a group of players who will fight this idea to the death.

IMO if you want the AI to be your guardian angel, you should at least have to yell out your location.

Being forced to name your location for the AI also opens up your antag options since you can actually have your victim yell on radio and not leave you instantly fucked.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

I agree with the above post

[Shadowlight213]

Why completely remove the AI tracking? Just add a delay to it to make it less useful for help, but still useful for doors.

At least try to think of ideas that will nerf the AI's antag hunting ability, but not decrease its quality of life.
Or address the core problem of AI laws and server policy push it to validhunt and it really has nothing else to do besides validhunt. Give the AI a mini game or something. Some sort of self upgrade puzzle that it can be solving in between door calls rather than be hunting for antags.
You're just calling to blindly nerf the AI into oblivion. Have you all been infected by the ghost of paprika or something?
The "million wierd ideas" are people trying to find creative solutions to the problem, rather than cutting whole features to fix an issue with how they are used in certain situations.

[newfren]

AI can still open doors it just makes it so that assistants trying to break into the captain's office will have to announce that they're doing it over radio so AI can fly over to them and start opening doors.

[oranges]

remove door control as anything but a malf power.

[PKPenguin321]

remove door control as anything but a malf power.

i see why you want this (AI can't immediately shut down traitors singlehandedly), but it would just cause a lot of unnecessary headache for the crew
removing autotracking pretty much accomplishes the same thing minus gimping the crew

Why completely remove the AI tracking? Just add a delay to it to make it less useful for help, but still useful for doors.

if you read my post at all you'd know why, and removing autotracking doesn't make it unable to open doors, just say where you are and it can still get the door for you

At least try to think of ideas that will nerf the AI's antag hunting ability,

i did

but not decrease its quality of life.

not really possible unless you're willing to give antags an advantage which will then cause powercreep etc

Or address the core problem of AI laws and server policy push it to validhunt and it really has nothing else to do besides validhunt. Give the AI a mini game or something. Some sort of self upgrade puzzle that it can be solving in between door calls rather than be hunting for antags.

i see your point on laws, but i challenge you to think of a better lawset than the ones we have now (people have been trying for ages and it hasn't been done yet)
giving the AI a minigame wont solve any problems

You're just calling to blindly nerf the AI into oblivion. Have you all been infected by the ghost of paprika or something?

it's not really blindly, there's plenty of good reasoning for it. if you actually read the thread you might know
also apparently paprika is the new buzzword

The "million wierd ideas" are people trying to find creative solutions to the problem,

those "creative solutions" just cause powercreep and/or headaches for the crew when the AI now has to jump through hoops to do simple tasks

rather than cutting whole features to fix an issue with how they are used in certain situations.

when is autotracking ever used for things that are not causing issues besides opening doors slightly faster
autotracking just leads to xenos getting caught earlier because they appear on camera lists for some reason, antags getting shut down as soon as someone yells "HE--GLORF!", finding people listed as "unknown" to shut down stealth antags, a whole list of exploits that only exist so the AI can jump to doors and open them faster

remove autotracking for the AI 2k15

[CPTANT]

Only allow auto tracking of people with maxed out suit sensors.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Only allow auto tracking of people with maxed out suit sensors.

Now that's a good idea. So when greyshirtMcUnknownNosensorsInMaint says "AI open door", you can just vox "fuck you turn suit sensors to maximum" at him

[Tokiko2]

I'd like to bring up the AIs ability to move securitybots. Does the AI really need the ability to do this? I've only seen AIs use them to antaghunt and play security officer.

[leibniz]

I'd like to bring up the AIs ability to move securitybots. Does the AI really need the ability to do this? I've only seen AIs use them to antaghunt and play security officer.

They really dont need it.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

If you take it off normal AIs, give it back to traitors and malfs, because it's their only defense (except their 1-2 borgs) against Yolo McSolo coming in through the backroom with a toolbox and an EVA suit and 1shotting them with girderpush/lockerspam

[Incomptinence]

Translating from buzzword speak you seem to mean it calls bots to deal with violent people/people it is allowed to deal with within its laws. Well what else would it summon them to do? Beepsky can't tile floors or clean them if you haven't noticed and he sure as hell can't RP.

I frankly consider this brainstorming somewhat of a failure, redundant reactionary solutions pulling in wildly different directions. Everyone seems to have a different idea and implementing even half of them could end in something absurd that those with vested interests would gag down for their own selfish reasons to the likely detriment of the game. This is like departmental security with a bonus round of design by committee added on top.

[callanrockslol]

What if admins enforced the current admin policy, banned the living fuck out of AIs that didn't follow their laws and killed the powergamer mindset by explaining that ASIMOV AI'S ARE NOT ON THE STATIONS SIDE, THEY HAVE TO HELP ANTAGS TOO AS LONG AS NO HARM COMES FROM IT.

You either need to start discouraging people playing powergame mcvalid boner as AI or stop whining about it all the time.

[Steelpoint]

That would require a very overwhelming and hands on admin intervention to accomplish. It would definitely work but it would likely take months for the new mindset to sink in.

In fact that's similar to what happened on Goonstation a long time ago. Goon had a very bad security problem which was solved, over a long period of time, with a very handfisted administration intervention with security operations in round, the whitelisting of the Head of Security from a waste of space drunk into a actual legitimate force of power and respect as well as the temporary introduction of a 'elite' security force that was also heavily administrated and given powerful equipment, a strict regime, a new area of the station and a mandate.

E: Got my history slightly wrong, the HoS was ineffective so the HoS was removed and the elite security was introduced as his replacement. However that also eventually went south and so the HoS was revamped and reintroduced with greater power, but is also held to a much higher standard.

[callanrockslol]

That would require a very overwhelming and hands on admin intervention to accomplish. It would definitely work but it would likely take months for the new mindset to sink in.

Then start as soon as possible. This has been a problem for years, it needs to be fixed sooner or later. Especially since those people started crying for robocop lawset as default so they could valid easier.

[Celdur]

I frankly consider this brainstorming somewhat of a failure, redundant reactionary solutions pulling in wildly different directions. Everyone seems to have a different idea and implementing even half of them could end in something absurd that those with vested interests would gag down for their own selfish reasons to the likely detriment of the game. This is like departmental security with a bonus round of design by committee added on top.

Well, people are just spitballing ideas really, I don't think anyone is saying that we should combine all of these ideas together, people just have different ideas of what would solve the problem.
We should maybe start picking out the good ideas from the bad and start a vote.

Anyway, some thoughts on the current popular ideas.
I don't think nerfing the AI too much will do any good, though the autotracker comes with multiple problems. And really, people are too lazy to even call out where they are at this point.
What's the huge deal with saying "AI let me into medbay please." or "AI can you open xeno maint? I think someone broke in."
Still, the more you take away from the AI, the less it has to do, the more bored it gets, the more it will try to valid hunt.

Giving traitors more tools is always fun, but I don't think that would solve much either. I mean the AI will still try to validhunt which is the main issue. We will just let the problem persist and try to live with it instead of solving it.
Still, the camera alerts are kinda bullshit. But I'm not sure if the easy snip is really the right solution. I mean, if you just take the time to learn the wires as you would with doors, you can snip cameras pretty quickly.
There should be a wire that disables the alarm, so that if you snip that first you can just take out the camera without the AI getting alarmed. There should also be a wire that if you take it out the AI wont see but the camera will still function (so people don't instantly see its broken).

I definitely agree with changing AI mentality, but that will probably be the hardest option.
The AI shouldn't focus on stopping an antag, it should focus on helping the guy who just got harmed.
Unless that antag is obviously wanting to murder everyone in sight. But trapping him in waiting for sec would also lead to harm, probably.

Removing lawsets isn't the right way to go about things though. They should just be unpopular among the crew like they always were.
So that if the captain slams in robocop everyone will start to get suspicious of the AI and captain.

[onleavedontatme]

Not hunting the antag will usually get you killed by an angry crew or in trouble with the admins when you inevitably have to bolt all of sec down when they kill a prisoner.

And also the more general problem of people saying they dislike powergamers/validhunters/people who don't RP but in reality venerating robust people and treating anyone who "loses" with derision.

[callanrockslol]

Not hunting the antag will usually get you killed by an angry crew or in trouble with the admins when you inevitably have to bolt all of sec down when they kill a prisoner.

And also the more general problem of people saying they dislike powergamers/validhunters/people who don't RP but in reality venerating robust people and treating anyone who "loses" with derision.

Then the admins are being dumb and the crew are dumber. Asimov causes problems, its supposed to be a neuteral party that only cares about keeping people unharmed at all costs. Even if that cost is enabling corporate infiltrators to steal shit.

[PKPenguin321]

I don't think nerfing the AI too much will do any good, though the autotracker comes with multiple problems. And really, people are too lazy to even call out where they are at this point.
What's the huge deal with saying "AI let me into medbay please." or "AI can you open xeno maint? I think someone broke in."
Still, the more you take away from the AI, the less it has to do, the more bored it gets, the more it will try to valid hunt.

Making the AI have to manually find people who need it's help and removing it's ability to teleport everywhere is kind of the opposite of giving the AI less things to do
What requires more effort, teleporting to someone, or having them tell you where they are and finding them on a camera manually?

[Cik]

primarily ai / borg player here

read thread and i'll chip in

obviously i don't support removing the AI as i really enjoy playing it, but i can see the complaint. there were a number of ideas in the thread that i liked

cameras really are far too difficult to disable without EMP. the alarm wire is silly because there is no way to figure out what it is without just RNGing, and it's very easy to get caught either by the AI, bystanders or security even assuming that you don't trigger the alarm wire just by bad luck. i support removal of the alarm wire, that way it would be easier to blind the AI.

doorbolts etc. i'd support a new item that allows destroying or otherwise disabling door bolts. it doesn't have to be that expensive. someone said that armblade should be able to slice them too, while i'm not too hot on the idea of making armblade even more of a must-have, i guess it would do.

"camera invincibility" issues:

this is a legitimate complaint, but i would implement the simpler solution of allowing more traitor items that block instazoom camera instead of just removing jump to - functions. there were a few people in the thread that said it would be a good idea to make manual scroll only. i'm not sure if they've ever played AI during a busy round but it would be nightmarish. prepare to wait minutes for door requests if you do that. i believe someone said "it gives AI more to do" it's like doubling the size of the mining asteroid but half of it has no ore; the shaft miners have to walk to the ore. it gives them more to do! pressing the arrow keys while waiting. great.

"HELP" issues: this is a problem with the comms system in general, and i would like to see some sort of local comms scrambler that can be used to interdict comms in a local area in the arsenal of traitors / whoever else so that a single HELP does not channel the entire anti-antag section of the station directly ontop of any traitor who is revealed for a single second. as much as i hate to invoke the spectre of "i ded, pls restart" i do get the feeling that alot of this anti-cyborg sentiment is a result of people who have no intention of being stealthy, provoke an asimov AI by being a crazy psychopathic menace and then when they get a few cyborgs and all of sec hot on their ass they get upset about it.

i have seen many traitors who never showed up on my radar who murdered several people, i have actually helped traitors as an asimov ai before because they were genuinely nonharmful (not always possible, of course) and have acquiesced to hostage crises etc. many of the traitors i see attempt no real cleverness and are crazy lunatics. i can't really do anything else but try to put them out of commission. this goes double for lings of course once you can prove they are nonhuman. the whole purpose to their existence is serial murder, at least traitors can be relatively benign.

anyway, i would prefer buffs to traitor equipment in general to counter AI, not nerfs to the AI itself (besides the things above) and especially not the removal of QOL shit like AI eye, which would be hellish to work without.

lastly i'd guess alot of this is caused by overvalidhunting AIs, which is the same as it's always been really. the secborg 'nerf' that changed their taser to disablers was fine and all but most of the complaints were "secborg validhunting is cancer!" which it is, but deciding semi-unilaterally to remove a huge feature of the game because it's misused by validhunters strikes me as ridiculous

hot opinions etc

[Actionb]

Regardless of what person's thinks, someone yelling "HALP!" and having the AI bolting the antag in and calling for sec, shouting the identity and location of the bad guy, all within a few seconds...

That's precisely the AI's biggest problem.

Agreed. AI tracking is the biggest problem - if it cannot track efficiently, it cannot bolt stuff either. While I see the removal of the one-click-tracking as the easiest and least intrusive solution, it would also remove quite a bit of quality of life for an AI ("Oh how I hate those mimes PDAing me to open some random ass door for them! Now I have to find his stupid meme name in the list!"). Being AI on high-pop rounds can be very stressful; a lot of chat going on, a lot of directing needs to be done, and of course (Law 1) plenty of homicidals to track. Having to dive into a list with 100+ entries (all dem monkeys, slimes and spiders!) just so that greyshit doesn't get his AI ROUGE fit on because you did not respond in a timely manner... sounds like a step backwards. Even worse if you were talking about removing the track-with-camera verb entirely, i.e. 'Where's Waldo SS13 Edition'.

I also really like the idea of the traitor item to unbolt airlocks. It gives the traitor a way out and thus keeps the round going while also giving the AI the feeling that it has tried its best but (luckily) was outplayed.

Alternatively, you know, try changing the way how AI's are obligated by their laws to bolt you murderers in.

How about this then:
"Law 1: You may not injure a human being.

Law 2: You must obey orders given to you by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.

Law 3: You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law. "

I am aware that his might open up a whole new giant bag of worms, but I have always felt that AIs were too bound by their laws to spoil everyone's fun by turning the entire station into a prison with bolted airlocks everywhere (especially in rounds like nuke ops and wizard). Rounds are way more fun if things play out and antagonists are not stopped by babysitter AI at every airlock.
On that note, a law change to make the AI a bit more like a drone would also remove the bullcrap about having to PREVENT HARM, of which there is nothing said in your standard asimov lawset.

AI has been changed to robocop? Shit son, better use your brain and create chaos and a diversion before trying to blow that guy's face off in a public hallway if you don't want your name on the most wanted list ten seconds later...

[Amelius]

How about this then:
"Law 1: You may not injure a human being.

Law 2: You must obey orders given to you by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.

Law 3: You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law. "

To be honest, I like this solution. Having the AI be a neutral party that can be used by antags and crew alike without fear of reprisal (i.e. AI, open this airlock leading to these plasma tanks so that I can murder half the crew, the AI would be obligated to acquiesce and not do anything else), but also not declawed from operating under different lawsets or malf.

If the problem then becomes Captains are changing the laws to paladin/etc. at roundstart, just slot a fourth law in right under law 1, that the AI must protect their own upload if threatened, unless the station is in dire emergency. That way, the Captain now has to hack the door, deal with an AI fucking with power, get through the turrets set to taze, and battle the AI for the APC to change it's laws - there's no actual danger doing so, but it's enough of a hassle that it'd dissuade him unless the situation is dire enough that the AI recognizes it as dire.