Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

For feedback on the game code and design. Feedback on server rules and playstyle belong in Policy Discussion.

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Do you want an economy in Space Station 13? Please state reasons below in separate post.

Yes, I want an economy.
16
52%
No, I do not want an economy.
11
35%
I want an economy, but I prefer Miauw's ideas to yours.
4
13%
 
Total votes : 31

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Xhuis
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Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby Xhuis » Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:14 pm #99727

So me and Miauw both opened up pull requests for economy around the same time, so I figured I would make my own feedback thread since he has one as well. His thread may be viewed at viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3993.

Like Miauw, I am working on creating a modular economy system. For now, this is only framework. At the start of the round, any given person's ID card is given a random PIN between 0001 and 9999 as well as assigned a credit value depending on their job. Normal crew receive 100 credits, most heads, security, and cargo techs receive 125, the HoS, HoP, and QM receive 150, and the captain receives 200. The PIN number is told to the holder of the ID card at the start of the round and may be changed at any ATM.

ATMs are scattered around the station in public areas like the bar, in hallways, at the HoP line, et cetera. ATMs accept ID cards and, after receiving the correct PIN for said ID, will allow access to the monetary funds within. When complete, ATMs will accept physical space cash and turn it into credits (and vice versa - credits into space cash). Eventually, there will be many uses for this money - it will replace supply and mining points, allow purchases from vending machines, as well as allowing transfer of credits to digitized cash registers in areas like the bar and kitchen.

The HoP will also serve as the main handler of money and currency. The HoP will be able to change the pay rate each job gets (to the extent of the station's preset budget) as well as freeze the funds on any given ID card.

NPC traders may also be a thing.

Coins will be able to be inserted into an ATM to immediately convert them to a set amount of credits depending on the value of the coin. Think of them as booster packs.

Pull request and all code may be viewed here: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10220
Last edited by Xhuis on Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I'm an ex-coder for /tg/. I made the original versions of clockcult, shadowlings, revenants, His Grace, and other stuff.
I don't play, code, or participate in the community, but I occasionally post dumb stuff in the hut.
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wubli wrote:xhuis you said you were feeling better but every thread you make makes me worry more about your sanity

ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone wrote:Sorry I was making fun of xhuis' """""compromise""""" who insisted that was the correct term to use.

CitrusGender wrote:We've ended up disabling clockcult on sybil and bagil now (terry is having some problems.) We will give Xhuis some time until he wishes to work upon it again. As of now, please use this thread for ideas and not for bickering.

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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby Falamazeer » Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:20 pm #99733

Do you support security fines?
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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby Miauw » Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:23 pm #99737

i would suggest moving the money managing from the QM to the HoP, since the hop doesnt really have much to do right now while the QM has plenty, really.
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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby Xhuis » Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:26 pm #99739

Falamazeer wrote:Do you support security fines?

Sec fining people for doing certain things sounds like an interesting alternative to brig sentences. I may add digitized tickets that transfer a set amount of dosh from a swiped ID card to a machine in security.
I'm an ex-coder for /tg/. I made the original versions of clockcult, shadowlings, revenants, His Grace, and other stuff.
I don't play, code, or participate in the community, but I occasionally post dumb stuff in the hut.
Kraso wrote:hi gay

wubli wrote:xhuis you said you were feeling better but every thread you make makes me worry more about your sanity

ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone wrote:Sorry I was making fun of xhuis' """""compromise""""" who insisted that was the correct term to use.

CitrusGender wrote:We've ended up disabling clockcult on sybil and bagil now (terry is having some problems.) We will give Xhuis some time until he wishes to work upon it again. As of now, please use this thread for ideas and not for bickering.

wubli wrote:you are a cultist of the gay

IkeTG wrote:It's a reflection of humanity, like all of man's creation. You cannot divorce this act from yourself, in a way there's a big titty moth inside all of us.

wesoda25 wrote:yeah no one was curious what it was from. Imagine choosing being a degenerate as your forum gimmick, LOL

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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby Shaps-cloud » Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:01 pm #99754

Medbay should stay free because fuck having to charge every assistant who walks through medbay with a little booboo
P.S. Shoot Dr. Allen on sight and dissolve his body in acid. Don't burn it.

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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby Jacquerel » Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:28 pm #99766

Why is the Quartermaster in charge of Wages rather than the HoP?
Surely that would be an issue for the HR department, not the guy who orders all the stock?

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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby Scones » Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:31 pm #99767

The QM should not be in charge of wages, as he is not tied to Command. The HoP, conversely, desperately needs something more to do in his spare time, and this is the perfect filler.

Will we have departmental budgets? Ex: HoS can put money into department budget, redeem it (somewhere in sec) for boxes of flashbangs, armor vests, boxes of handcuffs, etc.
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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby Xhuis » Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:39 pm #99796

All right, I'll make the HoP in charge of cash. I'll address some of these other questions shortly.
I'm an ex-coder for /tg/. I made the original versions of clockcult, shadowlings, revenants, His Grace, and other stuff.
I don't play, code, or participate in the community, but I occasionally post dumb stuff in the hut.
Kraso wrote:hi gay

wubli wrote:xhuis you said you were feeling better but every thread you make makes me worry more about your sanity

ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone wrote:Sorry I was making fun of xhuis' """""compromise""""" who insisted that was the correct term to use.

CitrusGender wrote:We've ended up disabling clockcult on sybil and bagil now (terry is having some problems.) We will give Xhuis some time until he wishes to work upon it again. As of now, please use this thread for ideas and not for bickering.

wubli wrote:you are a cultist of the gay

IkeTG wrote:It's a reflection of humanity, like all of man's creation. You cannot divorce this act from yourself, in a way there's a big titty moth inside all of us.

wesoda25 wrote:yeah no one was curious what it was from. Imagine choosing being a degenerate as your forum gimmick, LOL

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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby Miauw » Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:59 pm #99804

>tfw people are asking "will this be like miauws economy" on your thread

:^^^^^]
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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby PKPenguin321 » Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:26 am #99890

Make the HoP in charge then merge all this with Miauw's vault money servers thing so we can have a DOUBLE ECONOMY FOR TWICE THE CAPITALISM
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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby newfren » Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:07 am #99904

What happens when botany makes a 100 potency 10 yield money tree 3 minutes into every round?

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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby cultist-chan » Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:35 am #99908

Xhuis wrote:So me and Miauw both opened up pull requests for economy around the same time, so I figured I would make my own feedback thread since he has one as well. His thread may be viewed at viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3993.

Like Miauw, I am working on creating a modular economy system. For now, this is only framework. At the start of the round, any given person's ID card is given a random PIN between 0001 and 9999 as well as assigned a credit value depending on their job. Normal crew receive 100 credits, most heads, security, and cargo techs receive 125, the HoS, HoP, and QM receive 150, and the captain receives 200. The PIN number is told to the holder of the ID card at the start of the round and may be changed at any ATM.

ATMs are scattered around the station in public areas like the bar, in hallways, at the HoP line, et cetera. ATMs accept ID cards and, after receiving the correct PIN for said ID, will allow access to the monetary funds within. When complete, ATMs will accept physical space cash and turn it into credits (and vice versa - credits into space cash). Eventually, there will be many uses for this money - it will replace supply and mining points, allow purchases from vending machines, as well as allowing transfer of credits to digitized cash registers in areas like the bar and kitchen.

The HoP will also serve as the main handler of money and currency. The HoP will be able to change the pay rate each job gets (to the extent of the station's preset budget) as well as freeze the funds on any given ID card.

NPC traders may also be a thing.

Coins will be able to be inserted into an ATM to immediately convert them to a set amount of credits depending on the value of the coin. Think of them as booster packs.

Pull request and all code may be viewed here: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10220



I like the idea but I don't want it to be manditory. If you impliment a economy it affects ALL players. Introduce it gradually and if we like it then you can expand it to different areas.

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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby Xhuis » Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:01 am #99912

cultist-chan wrote:Introduce it gradually and if we like it then you can expand it to different areas.

That's exactly what I'm doing. I'm starting by adding the objects and framework, then by putting them in the maps with a few functions, then increasing functions slowly and if people don't like it'll get removed.
I'm an ex-coder for /tg/. I made the original versions of clockcult, shadowlings, revenants, His Grace, and other stuff.
I don't play, code, or participate in the community, but I occasionally post dumb stuff in the hut.
Kraso wrote:hi gay

wubli wrote:xhuis you said you were feeling better but every thread you make makes me worry more about your sanity

ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone wrote:Sorry I was making fun of xhuis' """""compromise""""" who insisted that was the correct term to use.

CitrusGender wrote:We've ended up disabling clockcult on sybil and bagil now (terry is having some problems.) We will give Xhuis some time until he wishes to work upon it again. As of now, please use this thread for ideas and not for bickering.

wubli wrote:you are a cultist of the gay

IkeTG wrote:It's a reflection of humanity, like all of man's creation. You cannot divorce this act from yourself, in a way there's a big titty moth inside all of us.

wesoda25 wrote:yeah no one was curious what it was from. Imagine choosing being a degenerate as your forum gimmick, LOL

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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby invisty » Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:24 am #99914

You could theme it in that modern, hyper-capitalist style where it's all about "losing less". Nanotrasen employees, with the exception of command staff, could be treated similar to modern slaves: Unlikely to ever break free of their current working situation due to extortionate costs of living and poor pay.
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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby Solarn » Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:59 pm #100095

I don't want an economy because I see exactly two ways of it playing out:

- Either it's useless because you can't actually buy anything with it or can find anything you would want to buy, in which case it will only matter for traitor objectives, which I don't consider a good enough reason to include it,

- Or people will be forced to use it to buy stuff, which would slow down the game and tie people to their departments, since that's where they get their pay from, turning every round into Nations, which would be horrible. Also, I don't think you considered the amount of litter this would generate in the hallways, or the massive traffic congestions as people fiddle with their cash/credit cards/whatever in front of the vendors.

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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby Gun Hog » Mon Jun 29, 2015 5:43 pm #100110

In the interest of minimizing clunky interaction and player annoyance, such a system should work mostly or completely on the ID. Physical cash would exist only for those without an ID, or those who do not want to be vulnerable to hacking/HoP/ID theft.

Every r-table + window-door combination that serves as an item transfer medium needs to include a vending machine that works like a smartfridge as well. Example: A Scientist could put a welding gas mask up for sale at 25 units of currency, or the chef could sell food.

I would hope that Xhuis gives the department head some control over their individual budgets and pay rates. This establishes a corporate hierarchy with the Captain as the CEO, HoP as the CFO, and department heads as manager/supervisors.

The system must be easy and convenient to use for the players, or it will break back down into communism. Transactions must similarly be handled electronically (lol) and easily.

One last thought, I feel that the AI should be able to assist the HoP and heads in managing funds and what not. Something fun for the AI player which also takes the load off the HoP when he is too busy giving all-access to the ten clowns he hired.

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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby Antimattercarp » Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:39 pm #100144

>HoP
>too busy


I also see that there is only one argument against, based purely on poor implementation no less, and yet the votes are equal.
Economy *if implemented correctly* provides a new tool for game balance, structure, and motivation. Certainly it will not be the clunky, half-implemented, abandoned inventory management simulator that it is on bay.

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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby Reimoo » Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:18 am #100228

Pretty much what Gun Hog said, quick n' easy transactions means this system will be a fun one to use instead of an annoyance. Because of this I think we shouldn't use PIN numbers. Mugging someone to nab their ID should be enough to jack their account as well.

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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby DemonFiren » Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:36 am #100289

A lack of Personal Identification Number numbers means easier access to Automated Teller Machine machines.
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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby Loonikus » Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:50 am #100297

We've needed this for too long. I also like this system better than the other, its present but not intrusive. As long as cash registers are done better than they are on baycode it will be perfect.

>People actually complaining it slows down gameplay too much
>Literally takes less than 5 seconds to swipe your ID on a vending machine or swipe and type a PIN number for an ATM.

If 5 seconds is that precious to you, than you need to stop playing SS13 like a fucking twitch shooter.

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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby Solarn » Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:25 am #100300

Loonikus wrote:We've needed this for too long. I also like this system better than the other, its present but not intrusive. As long as cash registers are done better than they are on baycode it will be perfect.

>People actually complaining it slows down gameplay too much
>Literally takes less than 5 seconds to swipe your ID on a vending machine or swipe and type a PIN number for an ATM.

If 5 seconds is that precious to you, than you need to stop playing SS13 like a fucking twitch shooter.


Then maybe people need to stop using those 5 seconds I'm completely immobile and looking at another window to pickpocket/cryosting/table me.

Also, in reality, it's more like
-Take PDA out
-Remove ID from PDA
-swipe ID
-open vending machine/ATM interface
-put ID back in PDA
-put PDA back in ID slot.
Which can be considerably longer than 5 seconds. Not to mention all the pushing and shoving as everyone else who wants to use the machine also tries to get close to it, interrupting me.

And even if this turns out to be a non-issue, if somehow everyone on the server suddenly magically becomes polite and interfaces magically stop lagging, that does nothing to address the fact that having a money-based economy with budgets allocated by department will turn the game into department vs department for more funds and tie people's ability to do fun things and have non-essential stuff to the goodwill of their department head.

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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby PKPenguin321 » Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:37 am #100301

Solarn wrote:
Loonikus wrote:We've needed this for too long. I also like this system better than the other, its present but not intrusive. As long as cash registers are done better than they are on baycode it will be perfect.

>People actually complaining it slows down gameplay too much
>Literally takes less than 5 seconds to swipe your ID on a vending machine or swipe and type a PIN number for an ATM.

If 5 seconds is that precious to you, than you need to stop playing SS13 like a fucking twitch shooter.


Then maybe people need to stop using those 5 seconds I'm completely immobile and looking at another window to pickpocket/cryosting/table me.

Maybe you need to stop playing SS13 like a fucking twitch shooter.
Solarn wrote:Also, in reality, it's more like
-Take PDA out
-Remove ID from PDA
-swipe ID
-open vending machine/ATM interface
-put ID back in PDA
-put PDA back in ID slot.
Which can be considerably longer than 5 seconds. Not to mention all the pushing and shoving as everyone else who wants to use the machine also tries to get close to it, interrupting me.

And even if this turns out to be a non-issue, if somehow everyone on the server suddenly magically becomes polite and interfaces magically stop lagging, that does nothing to address the fact that having a money-based economy with budgets allocated by department will turn the game into department vs department for more funds and tie people's ability to do fun things and have non-essential stuff to the goodwill of their department head.

lmao, more like
1. type ID and hit enter
2. click the vending machine
3. click your PDA (process takes maaaybe two seconds if you're slow)

>having a money-based economy with budgets allocated by department will turn the game into department vs department
i genuinely don't see how you figure
"Engineering can't give you guys power right now, the economy system is in our eyes." ?????
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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby Solarn » Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:05 am #100320

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Solarn wrote:
Loonikus wrote:We've needed this for too long. I also like this system better than the other, its present but not intrusive. As long as cash registers are done better than they are on baycode it will be perfect.

>People actually complaining it slows down gameplay too much
>Literally takes less than 5 seconds to swipe your ID on a vending machine or swipe and type a PIN number for an ATM.

If 5 seconds is that precious to you, than you need to stop playing SS13 like a fucking twitch shooter.


Then maybe people need to stop using those 5 seconds I'm completely immobile and looking at another window to pickpocket/cryosting/table me.

Maybe you need to stop playing SS13 like a fucking twitch shooter.

Maybe other people need to stop playing SS13 like a fucking twitch shooter.
PKPenguin321 wrote:
Solarn wrote:Also, in reality, it's more like
-Take PDA out
-Remove ID from PDA
-swipe ID
-open vending machine/ATM interface
-put ID back in PDA
-put PDA back in ID slot.
Which can be considerably longer than 5 seconds. Not to mention all the pushing and shoving as everyone else who wants to use the machine also tries to get close to it, interrupting me.

And even if this turns out to be a non-issue, if somehow everyone on the server suddenly magically becomes polite and interfaces magically stop lagging, that does nothing to address the fact that having a money-based economy with budgets allocated by department will turn the game into department vs department for more funds and tie people's ability to do fun things and have non-essential stuff to the goodwill of their department head.

lmao, more like
1. type ID and hit enter
2. click the vending machine
3. click your PDA (process takes maaaybe two seconds if you're slow)

>having a money-based economy with budgets allocated by department will turn the game into department vs department
i genuinely don't see how you figure
"Engineering can't give you guys power right now, the economy system is in our eyes." ?????

Okay, so maybe other people aren't as bad at typing as I am. The interface lag and shoving issues still exist.

As for the other part, do you seriously not see how having a limited budget divvied up between departments will lead to the departments fighting over who gets most of it and heads controlling their subordinates' finances?

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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:23 am #100324

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Solarn wrote:
Loonikus wrote:We've needed this for too long. I also like this system better than the other, its present but not intrusive. As long as cash registers are done better than they are on baycode it will be perfect.

>People actually complaining it slows down gameplay too much
>Literally takes less than 5 seconds to swipe your ID on a vending machine or swipe and type a PIN number for an ATM.

If 5 seconds is that precious to you, than you need to stop playing SS13 like a fucking twitch shooter.


Then maybe people need to stop using those 5 seconds I'm completely immobile and looking at another window to pickpocket/cryosting/table me.

Maybe you need to stop playing SS13 like a fucking twitch shooter.
Solarn wrote:Also, in reality, it's more like
-Take PDA out
-Remove ID from PDA
-swipe ID
-open vending machine/ATM interface
-put ID back in PDA
-put PDA back in ID slot.
Which can be considerably longer than 5 seconds. Not to mention all the pushing and shoving as everyone else who wants to use the machine also tries to get close to it, interrupting me.

And even if this turns out to be a non-issue, if somehow everyone on the server suddenly magically becomes polite and interfaces magically stop lagging, that does nothing to address the fact that having a money-based economy with budgets allocated by department will turn the game into department vs department for more funds and tie people's ability to do fun things and have non-essential stuff to the goodwill of their department head.

lmao, more like
1. type ID and hit enter
2. click the vending machine
3. click your PDA (process takes maaaybe two seconds if you're slow)

>having a money-based economy with budgets allocated by department will turn the game into department vs department
i genuinely don't see how you figure
"Engineering can't give you guys power right now, the economy system is in our eyes." ?????


Lmao, more like

1) Alt-click PDA
2) exactly the same as yours
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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby Grazyn » Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:32 am #100328

Reimoo wrote:Pretty much what Gun Hog said, quick n' easy transactions means this system will be a fun one to use instead of an annoyance. Because of this I think we shouldn't use PIN numbers. Mugging someone to nab their ID should be enough to jack their account as well.

It already sucks losing all your equipment when you're killed and cloned, it will suck much more losing all your money as well, which means your ability to interact with the station.

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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby Gun Hog » Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:35 pm #100345

I recommend that vending machines be coded to check a person's ID/account when they click to vend an item, so there is no need to remove the ID. I do not know how account security should work, though. Losing all your stuff from cloning or being stripped would have a strong negative impact on that player, but I feel that theft and hacking should be a real thing.

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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby DemonFiren » Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:46 pm #100351

Of course, that means there should be a way to make vending equipment free. Yellow/purple light? Shock wire, for deviositiness value?
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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby Steelpoint » Tue Jun 30, 2015 2:26 pm #100357

You should NOT have to pay for items that are currently free, that's just needlessly forcing people into using the economic system for no good reason.

If your going to add such as payment vending system create new vending machines that vend trinkets for money.
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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby WJohnston » Tue Jun 30, 2015 2:37 pm #100360

If you do actually make trader NPCs, make em like the goon ones.

The goon ones are basically computers, with conversation menus you can navigate and with lots and lots of response lines. They have custom items you can purchase with prices set and you can also try to haggle (and piss em off).

If you make these, for the love of god give the mappers flexibility. I'd absolutely love to be able to set every line of dialogue, every item they sell, every price for those items, how many are in stock, what the NPC looks like and so on. Give us an uncanny amount of flexibility.
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Miauw
 
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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby Miauw » Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:12 pm #100363

npc dialog trees are not happening in the map editor, WJ.

also "you should not integrate the money system into the game, instead you should make it all new stuff."
also gl thinking up good new items.
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WJohnston
 
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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby WJohnston » Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:17 pm #100366

I was hoping these dialogue trees could happen in the same manner of customization that paper sheets and books work. They're huge lines all written with HTML but it's extremely easy to do, and can give you a lot of control over what you want on it. I was hoping something like that would be possible.
Apparently I was an director or something.

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Bluespace
 
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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby Bluespace » Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:43 pm #100372

I would happily sell strange objects to RnD to get credits to buy insulated gloves and tacticool turtlenecks with.
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Not-Dorsidarf
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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:47 pm #100373

Steelpoint wrote:You should NOT have to pay for items that are currently free, that's just needlessly forcing people into using the economic system for no good reason.

If your going to add such as payment vending system create new vending machines that vend trinkets for money.


There's no point having economy if it isnt even used for snax, mate.

Stuff like Engivend should be free, though.
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Grazyn
 
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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby Grazyn » Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:20 pm #100381

how about you don't have to pay for your specific department vendor. Unless you want doctors having to pay out of their pocket for meds. In that case you should remove free healthcare. New job, insurance salesman maybe?

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Celdur
 
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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby Celdur » Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:52 pm #100389

Most vending machines should be free, like tool storage and the like.
Food would probably be fine though.

Also, department based budget could be neat.
Heads could be in charge of their stations budgets, and some of the more crazy things like virus crates or PAs etc. could cost a lot of money.
And then maybe the captain/HoP can keep track of budget spendings.

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Re: Economy [XHUIS EDITION]

Postby DemonFiren » Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:06 pm #100391

I wonder if we could go full-on Rapture for this: Let there be a setting on airlock electronics allowing their airlocks/windoors to be opened with money.
Another idea is to give security the option to fine someone via records console/HUD examination, then having Beepsky or an ED shake them down - either you swipe your ID on the robot, transferring the funds, or you're getting stuncuffed and Security is told to harmbaton the dosh out of you.
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