The time has come, nerf magic missile

[callanrockslol]

Bottom post of the previous page:

You can dodge magic missiles until they fade away, you can kill a wizard in less than 2 seconds with a well applied laser gun.

small bombs, flamethrowers and IEDs will mess them up well too, and shocked grills are amazing if you can pick a fight in a couple of them.

Syringe guns are GG no re wizard down

Wizards are fine

You just need to

Spoiler:

git gud

[Oldman Robustin]

You can dodge magic missiles until they fade away, you can kill a wizard in less than 2 seconds with a well applied laser gun.

small bombs, flamethrowers and IEDs will mess them up well too, and shocked grills are amazing if you can pick a fight in a couple of them.

Syringe guns are GG no re wizard down

Wizards are fine

You just need to

Spoiler:

git gud

Currently stun time <<< Magic missile fade time. Plus any time you get a stun off and they actually start taking damage you can guarantee that a jaunt/teleporter/blink is coming immediately anyway.

Same reason flamethrowers don't cut it. Jaunt removes flames and you're far more likely to ignite the 2 other dudes who got hit with magic missile and them burnt/killed while the wizard jaunts away with 3 burn damage.

There are 2 syringe guns, good luck getting one once wizard is called. My permaban was for using a mutagen syringe gun on a wizard as an assistant because it was too powergamey. I haven't tried to risk a ban for using once since then.

This is all beside the point however. Right now the most badly needed positions in the game are security/captain. Too many times I join a 30+ person game with 1 security/no captain - or the ones that do sign up are clueless. Right now Wizard is single handedly ruining those positions for me. The best weapons against wizards are the ones security doesn't have, that's ok if security had anything seriously threatening for the wizard... but they don't.

Wizard was FINE a few months ago. Nobody was saying "WIZARD UNDERPOWERED BUFF MAGIC MISSILE". Yet that's exactly what happened when every stun got nerfed EXCEPT magic missile. Now people are trying to defend this new status quo?

P.S. I'm not a complete baby about it. Admins sent a wizard a troll wizard for me with jaunt/MM but my ruse senses were tingling so I killed him and carried on as captain.

[miggles]

We've been over this.
If the wizard is using jaunt or MM (or is breathing pretty much) just use lethals. Don't waste your time on stuns when they can easily get out of it. Lethals need to at least be healed.
Flamethrowers are awful in most regards anyways unless you just want to catch people on fire.
I'm no expert on admin policy but I'm pretty sure "shoot the wizard with lasers until it dies" isn't powergaming.

[paprika]

People who waste time stunning are literally retarded. NO wizard has the reflexes to get away before you get 2 or 3 lasers in him by surprise, if he's standing still.

Seriously OP get good or go home, MM is all the wizard has because it's for crowd control because it's literally just him or a few apprentices versus potentially 60+ people and I have never felt cheated when a wizard gets me with MM, only when he ei naths me but that's got a fucking long ass cooldown.

[Steelpoint]

And I still wonder why people complain about disintegrate (Ei Nath), if he's not going to kill you one way he'll kill you another. I guess the main difference is that your corpse gets gibbed.

All I can say is to make the MM stun time on equal footing to a normal stun.

[Oldman Robustin]

Lethals are just as pointless as stuns.

Paprika you're advocating catching a wizard "by surprise". I have no idea which wizards you've fought but "by surprise" doesn't really exist when a wizard is prepared for every person he meets to be hostile, and the guy wearing all blue and gold is almost guaranteed to have a charged laser on him...

Yes you can land laser fire, but just like landing a stun all it does is pressure the wizard to jaunt/blink/teleport. Since I have come back I have yet to see a wizard downed by laser fire. I've watched a wizard run into 5 armed lasers like it was the pre-nerf dark gygax wiping out the brig. You just don't have to give a shit. MM means they are FORCED to keep a distance that makes laser fire easily juke-able. Keep an ointment or two on hand for the lasers that do catch you, collect their guns and if you're quick and aggressive you should have eliminated the majority of lasers (if you didn't already by raiding the armory first).

The fact that lasers are my only option is precisely why I'm done fighting wizards. Lasers will not stop a decent wizard, they will not even slow him down. In close quarters (hint: almost the entire station) the wizard can easily force you out of firing range with magic missile and kill you if you don't flee.

So far the only way I've seen wizards dunk is by gloriously fucking up and panicking and/or syringe guns/plasma prods. Unfortunately many of those are unavailable to security and risk getting you admin attention if you take them without belonging to that designated department.

[Psyentific]

+1 to Robustin - Especially since you can't really bomb wizards anymore.

[paprika]

If you knew how to use lasers you could catch wizards by surprise easy as fuck by spamming them off screen/hitting him.

Stuns do NO damage. If every stun shot you landed on a wizard was a laser, you'd get him into crit eventually. If he just blinks away then jaunts when he gets up, you've just wasted a shot that COULD have been used to chip off his health.

A laser travels faster than someone's ability to hit the blink button, that's just how it is, and odds are, he'll already be damaged and if you can just sink enough into him to get him into crit it's game over for him. That's what fighting wizards is about, wittling down their health -- and you haven't seen wizards go down to it since you've been back because you play on sybil and sybil security is almost 80% unrobust idiots who spam tasers at wizards and expect to get cuffs on them before they blink/teleport/ei nath the fuck out of them. I thought that was obvious. If you're going to cry and whine about MM at least practice a bit instead of expecting to be able to take down a wizard who's balanced to go up an ENTIRE CREW all by yourself. I've never, EVER had a problem dodging magic missiles unless I'm within 1-2 tiles of a wizard, and I'm never in that range unless he blinks into me. I never run towards wizards, I always put distance in between myself and them and spam lasers either offscreen or in their general direction, and that's why I have over 300 confirmed wizard kills and graduated top of my class in the centcomm space wizard hunting academy.

Or you could be a real cheeky fucker and use beartraps

[Oldman Robustin]

The only place you can reliably fire lasers off-screen is primary halls.

If you're a wizard in a primary hall you're sure as fuck watching your screen for any shit coming your way. If an armed crewmember manages to spot you and then fire on you from off-screen and land several shots without you moving... well I'd say you fall into the category of "unrobust wizard" that is moot here.

[paprika]

Why are you making all these stupid assumptions about how people play wizard, I'm literally telling you that these tactics work and have worked for me dozens and dozens of times, maybe you should try them instead of QQing because MM got you.

[Cipher3]

"i ded plz nerf" over 9000.

[Miauw]

fill a syringe with mutagen and shoot it at the wizard.
wait.
the wizard will be within a few points of crit, just throw a floortile at him or something and he's in crit.
or throw a floortile at him before you hit him with the syringe, both works.

[Steelpoint]

Or discover he is wearing the Gem Hardsuit, shutting down most of Chemistry's attack methods.

[Miauw]

oh right I forgot about that.

cant have a tactic without a counter, can you?

honestly there's probably other ways to defeat the wizard. maybe MM could use a slight nerf or something.

[Fatal]

When something is so effective it's used by EVERY WIZARD EVER, it's time to take a look at it honestly

Reducing the stun to something comparable to tasers is the best option really, I believe at the moment, the stun time is longer than the cooldown

Some more options for the wizards would be nice, perhaps some other stun spells that could be an alternative? I hate how every wizard has MM and Jaunt because those spells are so effective, it's pretty much idiotic to go without them, some alternatives for movement and stunning would be nice

[paprika]

It's used by every wizard ever because it's really really easy crowd control and the wizard NEEDS that to survive against a whole crew potentially armed to the teeth and all bloodthirsty.

[oranges]

There is something deeply ironic about telling Oldman Robustin to get good at wizard.

This is a guy who would dunk wizards over and over until he got told to stop.

[Oldman Robustin]

There is something deeply ironic about telling Oldman Robustin to get good at wizard.

This is a guy who would dunk wizards over and over until he got told to stop.

Glad im not the only person who noticed.

I was permabanned last time I shot a wizard with mutagen because it was too powergamey.

Now mutagen, syringes, and suicide bombs have all been nerfed or made bannable by the administration.

I should have made the title less combative... this isn't a nerf, this is a simple "fix" that brings the magic missile stun time in line with all the other stuns that were reduced months ago.

Wizard was fine in January 2014, why the fuck are people acting like it would break wizard is the stun time ratios were brought in line with where they've been for YEARS... with tasers/eguns/batons stunning longer than magic missile. It's been that way for YEARS.

It's used by every wizard ever because it's really really easy crowd control and the wizard NEEDS that to survive against a whole crew potentially armed to the teeth and all bloodthirsty.

And it will still be that way after the fix, it will simply make stun weapons viable again... which gives some hope to the crew for a reliable way to defeat a wizard without resorting to blind luck... because that's exactly what spraying lasers is.

[BigJamminJim]

I have a new policy.

Every wizard round, no matter what role I'm playing. Captain, HoS, Warden, Officer, Assistant, Engineer, whatever.

As soon as a wizard appears I'm going to suicide.

It's that simple. Fix magic missile or ban me for suiciding in key positions. I don't care. I've never seen a single ability or item that makes me want to ragequit SS13 so hard. Every time a MM wizard arrives on station I know I'm going to be its fucktoy for the next 1-30 minutes. No matter how long I last it doesn't matter when even a half-retarded unrobust piece of shit can wipe out the station with no effort simply by running/jaunting toward you, hitting MM, and then laughing as he's always the first one to stand up and fireball/einath/statute/laser/melee/whatever and kill you.

Fix this shit.

hahahaha why was this guy unbanned again?

[paprika]

There is something deeply ironic about telling Oldman Robustin to get good at wizard.

This is a guy who would dunk wizards over and over until he got told to stop.

I do that too but I don't have to use mutagen and powergame tools because I'm not a scrublord. Take those away from oldman? He cunts about MM.

There's nothing ironic there. That's just you being fooled into thinking powergame = robust when it's just exploit nonsense for people who can't into tactics and planning.

Source: I have over 300 confirmed wizard kills.

[Miauw]

and mutagen was ridiculous before i nerfed it.
get hit by a mutagen syringe? gg no re.

now mutagen is still really deadly, but not as ridiculously deadly as it used to be.

[paprika]

muta-egging is still p robust if you got a few.

[Miauw]

which was exactly my intent when I nerfed it :V

[paprika]

>nobody will ever take muta-egging seriously even though it's literally easier than using syringe guns

Fucking suffering.

[Hornygranny]

throw spears

[callanrockslol]

Throw grenades full of chloral smoke.

Flood the station with N2.

[paprika]

Dragging an N2 canister onto the shuttle is p great anti-wiz.

[Kelenius]

Release N2O + throw Lamarr

[Neerti]

I thought lamarr didn't have the knockout like normal facehuggers do?

[Kelenius]

I thought lamarr didn't have the knockout like normal facehuggers do?

No, but she rips off masks. Which works very well if someone is standing in N2O.

[paprika]

Just port NT's delay in using bruise/ointments because it's completely solved wizard EXTREME murderbone and it's probably pretty necessary on /tg/ with the reduced speed. It's pretty simple code, if I remember correctly.

[Oldman Robustin]

Why are you so hell bent on keeping a buff that wizards never needed?

Wizards could wipe out a station before magic missile became the longest stun in the game, why the fuck do they need it now.


A: They don't.

[paprika]

Uh are you saying that wizard MM stun time was NOT lowered at ALL when HG nerfed stuns on /tg/?

Sorry, I was unaware of that, but the ointment/bruise pack delay is a p good counter balance.

This isn't a thing you should be requesting and arguing about, it should be necessary, when HG nerfed stuns he probably just forgot about MM if anything.

[Steelpoint]

I thought we established that the MM stun times were equal or greater than normal stun times?

Here is my post on that back from page 1.

Spoiler:

Before the Stun alterations made by HG, at least to my recollection, the stun time on MM was just slightly shorter than the stun time from a Taser/Egun.

What did this mean? It meant that if both sides hit each other with a stun. Usually when someone hits the Wiz with a taser and the wizard uses MM to counter. What usually happens is that the non-wiz gets up a moment before the Wizard did, what this meant is that it gave the victim a chance to retreat and survive since usually continuing the engagement would end in more MM's or the wizard using an offensive spell.

Now however, you don't get that chance. If both sides get hit with a stun the Wizard will recover many seconds before the non-wizard will. Giving them plenty of time to walk over and apply ei nath to the forehead.

Not only that, but the situation now is further exacerbated due to the slower run speeds since not only does the MM stun you for longer but retreating from MM is significantly harder to pull off.

----------------------

I think the MM stun time should be reduced to be on equal if not slightly less than the stun a tase deals. It would give more quicker players a opportunity to survive a Wizard in certain circumstances and forces a faster response out of a Wizard.

Basically, compensate the MM stun times to be in line with the stun changes made.

[paprika]

Jesus christ HG.

[Hornygranny]

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/3846