Shadowlings

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:17 am #107442

Bottom post of the previous page:

Gun Hog wrote:It is a player version of Nar-Sie. It exists only to murderbone and enjoy god-mode for a while. Frankly, I wish we had a player Nar-Sie as well.

This is exactly the way I designed ascendants. The shuttle is called as soon as a shadowling ascends, as well as the entire world getting a sound and message (as well as all lights blowing out). You have a choice between sanic enthralling and sanic gibbing because those two spells have no cooldown.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:27 am #107458

That PR is a step in the right direction but I still think Thralls need to have their skin colour changed wholly.

blobbernaut · Post by **blobbernaut** » Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:40 pm #107551

Xhuis wrote:
Gun Hog wrote:It is a player version of Nar-Sie. It exists only to murderbone and enjoy god-mode for a while. Frankly, I wish we had a player Nar-Sie as well.
This is exactly the way I designed ascendants. The shuttle is called as soon as a shadowling ascends, as well as the entire world getting a sound and message (as well as all lights blowing out). You have a choice between sanic enthralling and sanic gibbing because those two spells have no cooldown.

weird. Guess it's different on hippie station for some reason

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:13 am #109932

New update has been merged, please post your experiences with it once rounds happen.

onleavedontatme · Wed Aug 05, 2015 4:10 pm

Shadowling is back in the rotation now.

Oldman Robustin · Tue Aug 11, 2015 4:06 pm

Had some fun with it last night.

It still suffers from inexperienced shadowlings all getting themselves killed in 10 minutes but hopefully that issue will diminish over time.

Thralls are a lot more fun to play now. Lesser Glare means that Thrall is no longer dependent on a stunprod to be relevant, night vision was a huge improvement too. Time will tell how the surgery/mask metagame will evolve but it seems like a fair balance right now, though I worry that too many newthralls will forget to mask up and reveal shadowlings before shadowlings themselves have been spotted.

Buggy lighting continues to be a headache for shadowlings, combined with the fact that you can't even see "light" with night vision means a lot of annoying damage or even death due to tiles being "lit" in a dark room. I'm also not sure what the "guise" lesser abilities does.

Overall an improvement I think, thralls are more meaningful than being shadowtide and security has an easy way to identify and deconvert them. Slings themselves may need a little more love still since they still feel a tad too squishy and their survival skills have long cooldowns, but thralls being more powerful may be a sufficient counterweight to Sling's own shortcomings.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Tue Aug 25, 2015 5:43 pm #114838

Thank you for your feedback.

Oldman Robustin wrote: Buggy lighting continues to be a headache for shadowlings, combined with the fact that you can't even see "light" with night vision means a lot of annoying damage or even death due to tiles being "lit" in a dark room. I'm also not sure what the "guise" lesser abilities does.

I can't do anything about the lighting - I'm not experienced with light code.
Guise turns you almost invisible while you are in darkness. Meant for escapes and throwing people off during a chase.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:14 pm #114842

Oldman Robustin wrote:Thralls are a lot more fun to play now. Lesser Glare means that Thrall is no longer dependent on a stunprod to be relevant, night vision was a huge improvement too. Time will tell how the surgery/mask metagame will evolve but it seems like a fair balance right now, though I worry that too many newthralls will forget to mask up and reveal shadowlings before shadowlings themselves have been spotted.

Here's a solution. As the shadowling gets closer and closer to ascending, alienlike features on all of the thralls becomes more apparent. For the first three or so thralls, the thralls maintain an entirely human appearance. After that they have to wear masks, and the detectable range (with no mask on) increases by one tile every couple thralls. For the last 5 thralls, all thralls would have an obvious alien appearance at a glance (i.e. visual identifiers that doesn't require examination), mask or no mask. This would also help solve the problem of shadowlings ascending after thralls create a thrall factory, completely unknown to the world, and no one even tries to stop it or resist being lesser glared + batonned + cuffed + radio offed, because there's no quick and easy way of determining friend from foe lategame.

To balance this, permit pre-hatch enthralling again, bump up the number of shadowlings slightly, and reduce the SLs ridiculously long cooldowns slightly.

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:21 pm #114852

Xhuis wrote: I can't do anything about the lighting - I'm not experienced with light code.

Give Shadowlings the ability to toggle their nightvision. They must be able to detect such a widespread threat. Consider giving them thermal vision as well, with a toggle to the night move. These two changes alone should make a significant difference in difficulty for them.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:38 pm #114869

Maybe add a dim blue overlay to "dark tiles" when using nightvision, or just not make the tiles fullbright, lighten them by 3 or 4 steps.
That way you don't have to toggle it off to know where the dark spots are.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:46 pm #114870

Allow pre-hatch enthralling up to 3.

The current number of shadowlings is a buffer to account for shitty players - Usually at least 2 will die to being slobbering mongoloids who can't be asked to read up on the role they are playing. I don't think they need to be more numerous - As time goes on and the average shadowling gets better, I expect things like 4+ shadowlings to become very powerful.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 1:44 am #114910

Scones wrote:Allow pre-hatch enthralling up to 3.

You can already enthrall people before you hatch, up to 5 people.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 3:46 am #114920

Xhuis wrote:
Scones wrote:Allow pre-hatch enthralling up to 3.
You can already enthrall people before you hatch, up to 5 people.

It's bugged last I played. You can't enthrall before hatching.

Pybro · Post by **Pybro** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:12 pm #114974

Is there a way to get past the chitin so I can cut their organs out? Acid and defib-monkey-human don't work.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:05 pm #115004

Pybro wrote:Is there a way to get past the chitin so I can cut their organs out? Acid and defib-monkey-human don't work.

They don't have organs you can cut out as far as I know

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 11:08 pm #115060

Pybro wrote:Is there a way to get past the chitin so I can cut their organs out? Acid and defib-monkey-human don't work.

Shadowlings are immune to surgery - this is intentional and afaik there's nothing that would require it (they're immune to facefuckers and in the next update regenerate chitin will remove diseases)

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:38 am #128634

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:41 am #128635

Coming from some feedback of a recent shadowling round, shadowlings should be able to thrall people while they're knocked out. This buffs pre-hatched thrallings by allowing sling chemists to actually be relevant, and also prevents the annoying situations of one of your thralls bonking someone and them being out for a good few minutes.

Helios · Post by **Helios** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:24 am #128656

Choosing when you hatch, and round lengths remind me of Blob.
How long do you think blob rounds would last if you could choose when you blebbed?
How many rounds would end in people just leaving on the shuttle if blob rounds could end with the shuttle?

Oldman Robustin · Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:51 pm

We're buffing pre-hatch Slings over my dead body.

This gametype will never be great until pre-hatch thralling is gone.

Helios wrote:Choosing when you hatch, and round lengths remind me of Blob.
How long do you think blob rounds would last if you could choose when you blebbed?

This is an excellent metaphor.

onleavedontatme · Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:24 pm

>sac one thrall to stall the shuttle a whopping 15 minutes
>you also have an ability to revive thralls
>you can do this infinite times

May as well just make the shuttle uncallable during shadowling.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:40 pm #128775

Kor wrote:>sac one thrall to stall the shuttle a whopping 15 minutes
>you also have an ability to revive thralls
>you can do this infinite times

May as well just make the shuttle uncallable during shadowling.

Saccing a thrall to slow the shuttle is a one-time deal.

Helios · Post by **Helios** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:55 pm #128782

Amelius wrote:
Kor wrote:>sac one thrall to stall the shuttle a whopping 15 minutes
>you also have an ability to revive thralls
>you can do this infinite times

May as well just make the shuttle uncallable during shadowling.
Saccing a thrall to slow the shuttle is a one-time deal.

Per shuttle call.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:41 pm #128863

Yeah. If heads truly want the shuttle to be gone then decon the fuck out of the comms console or you run the risk of it getting recalled. Sometimes simply crowbarring it works since I doubt slings will have raw materials on them.

ShadowDimentio · Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:51 pm

Zilenan91 wrote:Yeah. If heads truly want the shuttle to be gone then decon the fuck out of the comms console or you run the risk of it getting recalled. Sometimes simply crowbarring it works since I doubt slings will have raw materials on them.

I dunno about you, but I go after heads FIRST a sling. They're usually a cut above the rest of the crew, and getting an ID to a department basically assures them all being converted, which is good.

Oldman Robustin wrote:We're buffing pre-hatch Slings over my dead body.

This gametype will never be great until pre-hatch thralling is gone.

Why are you so buttblasted over pre-hatch thralling. It's not even good, just an option if you really want it and can do it. I hatch basically as soon as I get maint access and don't even bother with thralling before then.

But yeah on the topic of shadowlings I think the mode is great, but would suggest one thing. Why not make it so every 3 or 5 converts the time it takes to convert someone gets shorter? By the time you have like 9 thralls they're just bringing in convert after convert and then it's just a matter of waiting. Sure it gives the crew an opportunity to bounce back, but unless you've been thralling suicidal greytiders they aren't going to get themselves killed.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:56 pm #128873

Converting is good as it is tbh, any faster and we'll see sling thralls just hiding and avoiding everyone so that their master can convert faster than before. It would need to be a minor thing if we wanted it.

Also yeah on the heads thing, if that happens and the heads can keep recalling then that's gg. Same as any other antag really.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Oct 31, 2015 6:18 pm #130870

Shadowling Update V is now on GitHub! https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/12772

The pull request wrote: It's finally happening, and it's long overdue! Obviously do-not-merge for now.

Changes:

A new spell type has been added, /self. This spell will only target the user and is made for ease of creation of new spell types made to be self-centered.

Nany shadowling abilities have been refactored into "self" spells.

Spells now play sounds automatically if they have an assigned sound.

All shadowling abilities now require the user to be human.

Many shadowling ability cooldowns have been reduced.

Shadowlings no longer possess Enthrall before hatching.

Normal enthralling is now done by a new organ, the black tumor. Upon being placed into a human, it will enthrall them, and upon being removed, remove their thrall status. Enthralling a person creates a tumor and places it into the head slot, where it can be removed via organ manipulation.

Dethralling surgery has been removed, see above.

Enthralling fluff messages now center around the shadowling placing their hands onto the target's head rather than soulfully staring into their eyes with love and care.

Ascendant Broadcast has been removed.

Shadowling clothing/items now have icons on the HUD to better represent that they exist. They are mainly just darkened versions of other icons.

Destroy Engines is now removed after use.

The Shift Nerves button now has an icon.

Regenerate Chitin has been renamed to Rapid Re-Hatch to better reflect its use.

Shadowling abilities now require the user to be human.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:36 pm #130875

I am disgusted by the fact that there's two "human requirement" items on the list.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:12 pm #130881

I specifically included that to incite lizard players.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:14 pm #130882

I am so #liggered now.

Fonedsky · Post by **Fonedsky** » Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:07 pm #130906

Oh what the hell is up with slings dying in space. That's really dumb.
I've lost count of times where I've been doing really good as a sling, and then I accidentally walk into space and die in seconds while the whole station is dark because of far away stars.
No, that's not good at all.

Slings are very good, probably one of my favorites, but them dying in space is really, really not cool. I don't like that feature and never did.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:52 pm #130917

Fonedsky wrote:Oh what the hell is up with slings dying in space. That's really dumb.
I've lost count of times where I've been doing really good as a sling, and then I accidentally walk into space and die in seconds while the whole station is dark because of far away stars.
No, that's not good at all.

Slings are very good, probably one of my favorites, but them dying in space is really, really not cool. I don't like that feature and never did.

There is no way I can control that outside of completely removing starlight. Shadowlings are immune to lack of pressure and lack of temperature.

Incomptinence · Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:09 am

Maybe make space tiles heal them back? I mean sure you want to avoid light but resonating with the void seems like something they would like.

Also prevents just RCDing to box it in and choke thralls.

ChangelingRain · Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:14 am

Shadowlings need to interact with the crew in a way that's more than "stuncuffradiothrall" and "instantly disappear and leave if you see any danger"
Most of the round the shadowling and thralls just sit in maint, doing very little besides grabbing people to sit in maint with them and instantly stunning anyone who stumbles upon them up until the shadowling gets a bunch of people and can just gib, enthrall, or lightning blast anyone it sees. Or the shadowling fails to get enough people and gets cucked.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:15 am #130952

Anonus wrote:

So tell me what you think is best.

Incomptinence · Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:18 am

Or maybe an ability to darken space tiles? Shadow nebula or something?

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:22 am #130956

Incomptinence wrote:Or maybe an ability to darken space tiles? Shadow nebula or something?

That's a great idea, but unfortunately it'd probably be very hard to make. Starlight isn't a unique subtype, so it's impossible to elminate easily.
MSO has a PR up that nerfs starlight though, so that would significantly improve their experience.
Edit: PR just merged

ShadowDimentio · Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:27 am

Anonus wrote:Shadowlings need to interact with the crew in a way that's more than "stuncuffradiothrall" and "instantly disappear and leave if you see any danger"
Most of the round the shadowling and thralls just sit in maint, doing very little besides grabbing people to sit in maint with them and instantly stunning anyone who stumbles upon them up until the shadowling gets a bunch of people and can just gib, enthrall, or lightning blast anyone it sees. Or the shadowling fails to get enough people and gets cucked.

It's like the stealth-based antagonist is supposed to be stealthy and good at it or something???

Also just give shadowlings a way to place a tile beneath themselves in open space. They take damage if they're in open space, but stand over a solid tile and the regen picks back up because space doesn't actually generate any light.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:43 am #130984

New in the latest commit:

Enthralling now takes 21 seconds, 31 for loyalty-implanted targets. (Down from 30 and 45)
Dethralling surgery has been re-added
The final step in dethralling surgery is now performed with a flash, penlight, or flashlight
The final step in dethralling surgery now produces a shadow tumor after successful completion

Incomptinence · Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:51 am

Xhuis wrote:
Incomptinence wrote:Or maybe an ability to darken space tiles? Shadow nebula or something?
That's a great idea, but unfortunately it'd probably be very hard to make. Starlight isn't a unique subtype, so it's impossible to elminate easily.
MSO has a PR up that nerfs starlight though, so that would significantly improve their experience.
Edit: PR just merged

Simple way would be to have an ability that mass floors space tiles around the shadowling but they have the vacuum properties of space tiles still. Would give the more mobility than being stuck to the windowless sections of maint.

onleavedontatme · Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:20 pm

Surgery takes far too long to do as deconversion considering they can still use their stun during it, and they can still hivemind for help the whole time.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:37 pm #132189

Goofs self surgery PR reduces surgery times by half.

ShadowDimentio · Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:25 pm

If only there was something that could induce unconsciousness to people conveniently available in the operating theater.

Coderbus get on that

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Nov 07, 2015 7:10 pm #132325

ShadowDimentio wrote:If only there was something that could induce unconsciousness to people conveniently available in the operating theater.

Coderbus get on that

Sorry, probably not feasible.
:^)

Helios · Post by **Helios** » Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:55 pm #145216

How do Shadowlings fight mechs?
I built a few posibrains ripleys last round, and the Shadowlings couldn't do anything to fight them.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:44 am #145233

Helios wrote:How do Shadowlings fight mechs?
I built a few posibrains ripleys last round, and the Shadowlings couldn't do anything to fight them.

Don't they have an EMP thing already that they fight borgs with? EMPs are how you kill mechs.

Lumbermancer · Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:17 am

Helios wrote:How do Shadowlings fight mechs?
I built a few posibrains ripleys last round, and the Shadowlings couldn't do anything to fight them.

Get your minions to do the dirty job for you.

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:12 am #145254

Cheimon wrote:
Helios wrote:How do Shadowlings fight mechs?
I built a few posibrains ripleys last round, and the Shadowlings couldn't do anything to fight them.
Don't they have an EMP thing already that they fight borgs with? EMPs are how you kill mechs.

I was one of the posibrain mechs. I was wrecked by an ascendant. For mechs, fight them using normal methods, or use your e-z teleportation ability to escape and prepare.

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:57 am #145259

Was a shadowling in the aforementioned round. Mechs did not inconvenience me at the slightest - they were such slow, fat assholes, they were never a threat to an incredibly mobile, teleporting shadowling. After I ascended, I wrecked them.

Helios · Post by **Helios** » Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:38 am #145271

Why does it matter if you get wrecked by an ascendant?

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:21 pm #145303

It does not, I just wanted to mention it, lol.