Give traitors 25-30TC, Syndiebombs 13-16TC

Oldman Robustin · Sun Jul 19, 2015 1:21 pm

Right now if you actually want to ANTAGONIZE as a traitor using SYNDICATE gear in some form beyond fucking with peoples doors and flipping APC's on and off to make it look like medbay is haunted by a spooky ghost... you basically have this choice:

--Get a gun and decent traitor item. This item will probably be an emag, adrenal/EMP implant, thermals, or probably just ammo for your gun.--

Problem is, by the time I have a WEAPON+EMAG, that's it... I'm out of TC's except for soap/c4. I would love to try utilizing other tricks with cham projectors, voice changers, syndicate radios, throwing stars, poisons, etc. but that's literally all out the window. You either pick a meme traitor who reads woody's got wood in the captain's voice and poisons all the chef food... or you get a combat traitor who is generally just "Valid status crewmember with a gun and some other item they need just to not get shit on by the AI/Borgs.".

This isn't hard, the basic changes would only take a few minutes to adjust. You can contemplate repricing items. Stuff like the crate and the random "theme" kits, Syndie bombs, and a few other items will need their TC cost raised. If there's a combo that you guys are particularly worried about its not hard just to bring the cost of the combo back in-line with what was possible under TC. Since we're no closer to stopping AI omniscience or other factors that have driven traitors into the ground, this should be something we can easily experiment with for a while to see if it makes more interesting rounds or if all the traitors I've seen in the last two months were always just 5-10TC short of becoming unstoppable murdergods (hint: they weren't).

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 1:26 pm #105500

With syndicate factions, a traitor could buy certain equipment for less TC depending on the chosen faction. I think that's a better solution than just "moar tc".

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 1:28 pm #105501

Syndicate Factions is not that great, its introduces a unpredictable factor and all it will lead is to everyone picking the one faction that offers cheaper guns and the like.

A blanket increase of TC's to 30, and increasing Syndi Bombs to 16, will give traitors more comfort and ability to do overzealous things that prior they never would do. Since the extra TC offers a buffer allowing traitors to experiment without compromising themselves.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 1:30 pm #105502

Steelpoint wrote:Syndicate Factions is not that great, its introduces a unpredictable factor

This means nothing at all.

Steelpoint wrote:and all it will lead is to everyone picking the one faction that offers cheaper guns and the like.

Assumptions.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 1:37 pm #105503

Irrespective of picking my argument apart to individual lines to nitpick on...

I think it will be easier going forward to do a blanket TC increase then trying to juggle things around with a faction system.

At this very moment I am working on a PR to increase TC's to 30.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 1:43 pm #105504

PR up: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10702

Oldman Robustin · Sun Jul 19, 2015 1:44 pm

>Guy comes into thread speculating about a future change that may or may not ever happen

>Derides others for making "assumptions" about something that is currently completely built on assumptions of what the final version will look like.

Excellent job sir, I tip my fedora to you.

I've seen enough of this "OH BUT WHEN THE CODERS FINALLY ADD _________________________ AND ________________________" this isn't going to be a problem anymore!

Here's a genius fucking breakthrough, I'm literally proposing that we change two very basic simple variables. If Syndie Factions are implemented and affect the balance of having more TC, then fucking send it back to 20TC as part of that change... until then I'm sick of seeing this issue being the can kicked down the road.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 1:55 pm #105506

whats everyone's obsession with the syndibomb anyway?

It seriously sucks balls with that huge timer and small blast.

Every traitor scientist can put together several maxcap bombs for no cost and little effort and detonate them without warning.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 2:19 pm #105508

Before the bomb cap was increased we had a situation where it was standard for double agents to buy syndi bombs and blow shit up as their best tactic in trying to end the station and hopefully their target, this also lead to the hilarious counter tactic of other double agents buying the syndicate red button (which instantly detonates all syndi bombs) in a attempt to kill the double agents trying to plant syndi bombs.

The powers that be decided to eventually increase the price of bombs so that a traitor or double agent could only afford one bomb.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 2:22 pm #105509

CPTANT wrote:whats everyone's obsession with the syndibomb anyway?

It seriously sucks balls with that huge timer and small blast.

Every traitor scientist can put together several maxcap bombs for no cost and little effort and detonate them without warning.

The fact that it sucks is a bug.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 3:42 pm #105514

What's up with the antag rates anyway? I had to check if I had antag on because I literally have not been an antagonist for the last week+, and I've been playing 2-5 hours a day. Is it still reduced from SoS'es 'tweaks'?

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 3:46 pm #105515

Remember when 20 was enough for a traitor to cause havoc?

Remembers.
Remember when we didn't have to make Syndicate Corporations or give traitors increases to their TC count to their job over terrible content updates?

Remembers.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 3:58 pm #105517

RG4 wrote:Remember when 20 was enough for a traitor to cause havoc?

Remembers.
Remember when we didn't have to make Syndicate Corporations or give traitors increases to their TC count to their job over terrible content updates?

Remembers.

It is the long term result of nerfing sleepy pens, c4, e-bows and reducing traitor numbers.

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:20 pm #105525

Those updates were a result of when the administration of that time was pushing for less chaos and murderbone. Back then, people were dying left and right, so that wave of nerfs came to de-fang the antagonists.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:21 pm #105526

Now in the future I think many of us can agree those changes went too far in the wrong direction.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:47 pm #105528

Unfortunately Cheridan shut down the PR, it might be from anger from when I enquired to him on IRC about another PR I have up.

Its a shame the PR was closed well before the 24 hour limit.

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:48 pm #105529

Steelpoint wrote:Now in the future I think many of us can agree those changes went too far in the wrong direction.

I'm amazed that people didn't realize after these sentences that someone was wrong.
We're rolling out Armor Nerfs because it's too effective
We're nerfing Traitors because they're too deadly
We're adding more TCs to Traitors because they're not deadly enough

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:52 pm #105530

Closing the PR is bullshit.

80% of people voted in favour of increasing TC and there is no argumentation provided on why it is a bad change other then "the 40tc one also got closed.

Severely pissed that it is not even left open to allow more discussion to happen.

This would have been a very good change and its just shut down for no reason.

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:55 pm #105531

CPTANT wrote:Closing the PR is bullshit.

80% of people voted in favour of increasing TC and there is no argumentation provided on why it is a bad change other then "the 40tc one also got closed.

Severely pissed that it is not even left open to allow more discussion to happen.

This would have been a very good change and its just shut down for no reason.

Votes don't matter, no matter the poll they don't care what players general opinion is.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:56 pm #105533

RG4 wrote:
CPTANT wrote:Closing the PR is bullshit.

80% of people voted in favour of increasing TC and there is no argumentation provided on why it is a bad change other then "the 40tc one also got closed.

Severely pissed that it is not even left open to allow more discussion to happen.

This would have been a very good change and its just shut down for no reason.
Votes don't matter, no matter the poll they don't care what players general opinion is.

Its not just the votes, its the solid argumentation that just gets shot down with "LOL, NOPE".

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 6:02 pm #105534

But how many people voted for 30TC?

And there are better ways of handling this. Adding more TC just spawns more OP combos that you will fix by increasing TC costs, defeating the purpose of increasing the TC budget.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 6:07 pm #105535

The good thing about TC adjustments is that its really easy to change them, if a week or so down the line we discover some bad side effects of the TC increase its trivial to adjust accordingly.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 6:08 pm #105536

I voted for it, and if a new vote is put up, I'll vote for it again.

I often get hung up as a traitor trying to get the shuttle called so I can end the round, between the bob the builder types "CAN WE FIX IT? YES WE CAAAAN!" and the shitty fucking recall timer counting back up making it even harder.

Pretty much I got two options for that, don't buy gear to get my objective done, and instead either buy a sing beacon and an emag so we can leave, or mad bomber the station to force a shuttle. neither option allows me much points to actually do my objective.
So I gotta pick between being able to end the round once I win, or dying in the inevitable mulligan rampage that follows.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 6:17 pm #105537

Steelpoint wrote:Unfortunately Cheridan shut down the PR, it might be from anger from when I enquired to him on IRC about another PR I have up.

Its a shame the PR was closed well before the 24 hour limit.

Cheri is literally the worst. He defended his shitty removal of nuke op implants to the death along with unremovable hardsuits, tried to remove the thread when he realized that he made an ass of himself, then provided a band-aid 'fix' that did nothing to rectify the core problem, all despite only having around half a person in the multi-page thread agreeing with him in any sense. Then, he turns around, in, say, the HoS armor buff reversion pull (https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10689) where he straight-out claims that he cares what people think, and to 'think of the players, people weren't supporting X' when he clearly doesn't give a fuck about the community or the server if they don't align with his own opinion.

Literally worse than Pap, because at least Pap was honest about it. This is a direct quote from him from the nuke op thread when literally everyone was telling him how shitty it was:

Cheridan wrote:How is it that I'm the bad guy for "forcing" this shit upon people, but it's ok for people to force explosive implants upon me?

It's awesome that your opinion is worth more than mine!!

Do we really want someone like that in charge of coderbus? Like, really? Perhaps this gem from just browsing recent pulls will shed more light on this enigmatic figure:

Cheridan wrote: Cheridan locked and limited conversation to collaborators Jul 19, 2015

actually i'm reopening this solely to make steelpoint madder; merge it or don't, i don't care

Are we making babies the be-all-end-all who decide what gets merged and doesn't? This is appauling behaviour for a head coder. It's literally 'I don't like this person, I won't discuss the merits and dismerits of this revert with him or anyone else, I'm just going to whine, complain, and try to revert everything he does regardless of what it is'. How can we possibly count on him to IMPROVE /tg/station? Especially when he shuts down discussion to try to push contested changes through, or perhaps he has, or will even revert liked changes just because he dislikes the person who merged it initially?

Full thread here: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... ke+implant

#DeadminCheridan2015.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:46 pm #105557

we gud

Oldman Robustin · Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:20 pm

Scott/XXAlpha you still didn't even address my chief problem with your suggestion.

Before I stopped playing I made MULTIPLE efforts to even get a TINY FUCKING CHANGE supporting traitors, give them insulated gloves in their uplink, reduce the price on shittier unused items, and every fucking time (Cheridan was opposed to it back then too, wowie!) someone would argue against it saying that we just needed SOMETHING ELSE besides a TC increase. Syndicate faction, TC category overhaul, New Items, AI nerfs, etc...

But it never fucking happens, it's not even seriously in the pipeline right now. Dismissing a badly needed change because "WELL THERES ANOTHER HYPOTHETICAL CHANGE THAT WILL NEVER GET ADDED BUT IT MIGHT BE BETTER SO WE SHOULDN'T DO THIS".

“The enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan.”

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:30 pm #105559

Oldman Robustin wrote:
“The enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan.”

Problem is Cheridan seems to have a god complex and thinks his ideas are the perfect ones all other ideas must be expunged. Kinda like his best buddy Paprika shame that Pap got banned

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:10 pm #105562

Oldman Robustin wrote:Scott/XXAlpha you still didn't even address my chief problem with your suggestion.

Before I stopped playing I made MULTIPLE efforts to even get a TINY FUCKING CHANGE supporting traitors, give them insulated gloves in their uplink, reduce the price on shittier unused items, and every fucking time (Cheridan was opposed to it back then too, wowie!) someone would argue against it saying that we just needed SOMETHING ELSE besides a TC increase. Syndicate faction, TC category overhaul, New Items, AI nerfs, etc...

But it never fucking happens, it's not even seriously in the pipeline right now. Dismissing a badly needed change because "WELL THERES ANOTHER HYPOTHETICAL CHANGE THAT WILL NEVER GET ADDED BUT IT MIGHT BE BETTER SO WE SHOULDN'T DO THIS".

“The enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan.”

Adding more TC will just open more possibilities for overpowered item combos. Adjusting prices is more straightforward.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:25 pm #105565

Steelpoint wrote:Syndicate Factions is not that great, its introduces a unpredictable factor and all it will lead is to everyone picking the one faction that offers cheaper guns and the like.

A blanket increase of TC's to 30, and increasing Syndi Bombs to 16, will give traitors more comfort and ability to do overzealous things that prior they never would do. Since the extra TC offers a buffer allowing traitors to experiment without compromising themselves.

This is almost word for word the exact reason why we went from 10tc to 20tc. Since that didn't fix the supposed problem, why would this?

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:42 pm #105567

Saegrimr wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:Syndicate Factions is not that great, its introduces a unpredictable factor and all it will lead is to everyone picking the one faction that offers cheaper guns and the like.

A blanket increase of TC's to 30, and increasing Syndi Bombs to 16, will give traitors more comfort and ability to do overzealous things that prior they never would do. Since the extra TC offers a buffer allowing traitors to experiment without compromising themselves.
This is almost word for word the exact reason why we went from 10tc to 20tc. Since that didn't fix the supposed problem, why would this?

Because he's proposing that we simply raise the TC count. The 10->20 change simply doubled the cost of most of the items to let designers work with smaller increments.

Oldman Robustin · Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:49 pm

Scott wrote:
Oldman Robustin wrote:Scott/XXAlpha you still didn't even address my chief problem with your suggestion.

Before I stopped playing I made MULTIPLE efforts to even get a TINY FUCKING CHANGE supporting traitors, give them insulated gloves in their uplink, reduce the price on shittier unused items, and every fucking time (Cheridan was opposed to it back then too, wowie!) someone would argue against it saying that we just needed SOMETHING ELSE besides a TC increase. Syndicate faction, TC category overhaul, New Items, AI nerfs, etc...

But it never fucking happens, it's not even seriously in the pipeline right now. Dismissing a badly needed change because "WELL THERES ANOTHER HYPOTHETICAL CHANGE THAT WILL NEVER GET ADDED BUT IT MIGHT BE BETTER SO WE SHOULDN'T DO THIS".

“The enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan.”
Adding more TC will just open more possibilities for overpowered item combos. Adjusting prices is more straightforward.

I have yet to hear what an overpowered combo looks like. Revolvers are already one of the best ranged weapon in the game, what holds them back is their noise, ammo limitations, and the fact that it does nothing to stop the AI from fucking you on camera. 10 more TC is enough to get what, 2 more revolver mags?

My point is that traitors can already access powerful combat items, and typically you only need ONE of those items to make you lethal. The problem is that none of the other dozens of traitor items come into play because those basic combat items easily suck up your first 20 TC. You keep saying "OP" but I don't see it. Voice changers, addititional c4, emag/implant/thermal are all possibilities but having one more of those does not come close to push you into the "unjustifiably OP" category. Biggest issue is with adrenals and those are a super-limited get out of fail free card. As long as no-drop implants are kept far away from traitors there will be absolutely nothing to save you from getting tased, tased, tased, baton'd, baton'd, flashed, baton'd cuffed as an adrenal traitor. All the anti-stun stuff is very limited in its uses. Lings had virtually unlimited stun removal and we got rid of them for being utter shit. I'm just not seeing the point (plus I proposed a a lower 25TC change if you're REALLY that worried).

The point is this is an experiment, I've said many times that we have and continue to suffer under many new coder additions like "Knock you out for 30 minutes for walking through smoke wearing a hardsuit and internals" morphine blob and "literally unkillable unless AFK" slaughter demons. A modest TC increase does not pose the threat of an unstoppable murdervillain. If there is a single combo that needs to be brought in line, that's ALSO an easy fix. I'm fine with culling a few OP combos if it lets me have more variety than GUN + UTILITY ITEM 2-slot traitors that exist now.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:55 pm #105574

Traitor is simply caught in between "I died please nerf everything useful" vs "Traitor is a dull game mode where everyone is too afraid to do anything".

You can't be upset every time you die if you want Traitor to be interesting again. What are traitors supposed to do if they can't be a genuine threat?

Oldman Robustin · Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:07 pm

Ikarrus wrote:
Saegrimr wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:Syndicate Factions is not that great, its introduces a unpredictable factor and all it will lead is to everyone picking the one faction that offers cheaper guns and the like.

A blanket increase of TC's to 30, and increasing Syndi Bombs to 16, will give traitors more comfort and ability to do overzealous things that prior they never would do. Since the extra TC offers a buffer allowing traitors to experiment without compromising themselves.
This is almost word for word the exact reason why we went from 10tc to 20tc. Since that didn't fix the supposed problem, why would this?
Because he's proposing that we simply raise the TC count. The 10->20 change simply doubled the cost of most of the items to let designers work with smaller increments.

Open and shut case.

I made the thread that led to that change. The scope was MUCH more limited. We had more traitors per round back then and there was less of a consensus toward "more lethality, better traitors" compared to now. So I proposed a few tiny cost deductions for the least used items. That's difficult with 10TC because of how hard it is to make small changes when your basic TC makes up 10% of your budget, it was just too hard and I'm glad we doubled it because now we can make more nuanced adjustments to traitor costs.

But like Ikarrus said, that was a completely different change. Only a small handful of unused items actually got reduced doubling from 10-20TC, all the basic traitor combos remained unchanged.

My philosophy is this: The traitor's items don't really open up insane unbeatable combo like the nukeops get. There's no eshields or no-drop implants, no one-shot kill guns or nutty crowd control gear. I mean what's the average number of traitors in a traitor round? 6-9? The average nukeop crew is 6 (le borg face) and the typical outcome for those guys with access to the most unthinkable OP stuff is typically getting shit on by the crew, and those guys are REQUIRED to work together toward a singular objective. Imagine if the flops all had different objectives, could backstab each other, and didn't have a way to communicate by default...

Point is, we're a LONG way from getting unstoppable murderboners and it's a silly strawman considering how few players even have the robustness to pull that kind of escapade off. You could give the average traitor a deathsquad loadout and there's still probably a 50/50 chance of them losing to a greyshirt disarm, grab eshield, watch DS pulse cannon himself combo.

Post by **lumipharon** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:30 pm #105591

If I get more tc's, it mean I can roll with a revolver + thermals, emag for access, adrenal for the rare chance I ever get stunned, etc etc.

Traitors are weak shit right now though. Remove AI for ONE WEEK. I would dearly like to see how things would playout without the antag cockblocker 9000.

Atticat · Post by **Atticat** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:34 pm #105593

remove security borgs

- also remove AI for one week please. I think AI is an incredibly unique and beautiful role that makes space station truly interesting, but I am torn because all it really does is make stealth near impossible. As it currently stands, whenever you sabotage something you have no way to know if the AI is watching and reporting you, so it's pure dumb luck.

Maybe cameras should have a green light thats visible when the AI is observing through it??

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:42 pm #105600

The problem is inferior items, not the AI. Why is it that chaos levels once got so bad that SoS tried to ban extreme muderbone and we had reduced traitor counts, along with the nerfs that make them so passive today? The AI had not taken the nerfs it had today. I would say the passiveness lends more to increased difficulty in fighting Sec. You can easily get around an AI's lockdown by smashing some windows, as most of the station is designed for easy breakins and escapes. It is Security players that end your round, not the AI. I am certain that if antagonist players felt they could go toe-to-toe with Sec and win, they would become more aggressive, despite the AI's harmyelling. I say this, because this is how it was before Traitors were nerfed into the ground. You are looking in the wrong area to fix the problem.

Give traitors the pre-Paprika ebows back. Let Changelings gain more evolution points from absorbing people. Bring muderbone back, that is what people are missing. You want more conflict, and that conflict happens with Security. Make sure our most common antagonists (Traitors, Changelings) have the ability to handle multiple Security officers. That is where the fun is, in fighting antagonists.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:53 pm #105609

lumipharon wrote:Traitors are weak shit right now though. Remove AI for ONE WEEK. I would dearly like to see how things would playout without the antag cockblocker 9000.

You don't need to go through coderbus for this.

It's a configuration option. Admins can also turn it off on a round-to-round basis.

Go bug head admins.

Atticat · Post by **Atticat** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:54 pm #105611

Honestly gunhog you made zero refutes of the AI's strength...locking down doors and constantly yelling out your location either overtly or through channels you have no access to. Antags don't have to go toe to toe with security once they are outed, they need to go toe to toe with the entire station. An active AI prevents any ability to be stealthy that isn't based on the luck of an AI not spotting you and silently giving your location to security.

Post by **lumipharon** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:56 pm #105613

Kor already said he would be game to do this, for a few rounds at least.
If it gets paired with removing round start maint access from assistants and sec officers, traitors could actually be like, fun again.

Gun Hog wrote:The problem is inferior items, not the AI. Why is it that chaos levels once got so bad that SoS tried to ban extreme muderbone and we had reduced traitor counts, along with the nerfs that make them so passive today? The AI had not taken the nerfs it had today. I would say the passiveness lends more to increased difficulty in fighting Sec. You can easily get around an AI's lockdown by smashing some windows, as most of the station is designed for easy breakins and escapes. It is Security players that end your round, not the AI. I am certain that if antagonist players felt they could go toe-to-toe with Sec and win, they would become more aggressive, despite the AI's harmyelling. I say this, because this is how it was before Traitors were nerfed into the ground. You are looking in the wrong area to fix the problem.

Give traitors the pre-Paprika ebows back. Let Changelings gain more evolution points from absorbing people. Bring muderbone back, that is what people are missing. You want more conflict, and that conflict happens with Security. Make sure our most common antagonists (Traitors, Changelings) have the ability to handle multiple Security officers. That is where the fun is, in fighting antagonists.

But AI's dick over antags way harder then sec.
Sure, sec are the ones that actually go in there and dunk them, but they can't do shit when all they hear is someone saying H-HELP over radio.

Also "just break windows" doesn't help unless sec is outright inept.
Lets say you murder some guy in science, toxins.
AI sees you, locked down the area.
You smash the windows to get into the science corridor.
The AI drops the firelocks, but you crowbar out.
The the AI drops lockdown, slamming the blast shutters closed, bolting the maint doors etc etc.
You try disposal out
The AI turns off the pump
Unless you c4 into maint (which the AI can still lockdown if it can be bothered), a determined and competent AI can utterly fuck you.

If the AI KEEPS FOLLOWING YOU, you simply can't get out - the AI can keep bolting doors ahead of you, since it's literally just hotkey clicking doors as they appear.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:11 am #105621

> removing round start maint access from assistants

That's just silly. No roundstart maint for sec I can understand, but assistants? Do you remember the ridiculously long lines that would form at the HoP line at roundstart when assistant maint was off? That's not a problem anyway, assistants are barely armed, and, given you can't sign up as one past roundstart, are a minority.

Roundstart sec maint access is a huge problem though.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:16 am #105622

I'm not OK with sec losing maint, unless assistant loses it too, Pick one, on or off.
because the grey tide exists, and losing dickbuts in maint from no access is only ok a few times a round, not every other attempted arrest.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:24 am #105626

Amelius wrote:> removing round start maint access from assistants

That's just silly. No roundstart maint for sec I can understand, but assistants? Do you remember the ridiculously long lines that would form at the HoP line at roundstart when assistant maint was off? That's not a problem anyway, assistants are barely armed, and, given you can't sign up as one past roundstart, are a minority.

Roundstart sec maint access is a huge problem though.

I do remember the lines.
It would be at most, 6 people, and it took about 10 seconds to give someone maint access.
Most of it was people loudly whinging about not having the access be default. If you have nothing better to do then prowl maint round start, and can't be bothered asking the HoP for access, then it should be your loss.

Also reposting this because I think it could help. Also co-operation is FUN.

One thing I thought about, is that traitors tend to be rather good in the once in a blue moon that they work together.
What if sometimes, the game would group 2 (or more) traitors together?
The fluff could be several people from the same syndicate faction, that have an extra, shared objective.

So Gobbles-the-Cocks might have:
1) Assassinate X
2) Escape alive
and then 3) Nanotrasen's scientific efforts must be stopped! Work with the other Gorlex Marauder agents to kill all science personnel!

Then part of the notes would be "You work for the Gorlex Marauders with Rubs-the-Chest and Fondles-the-Tail. Work together to achieve your mutual objectives!"

2 or 3 traitors working together can be far more deadly then the sum of their parts.

Oldman Robustin · Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:02 am

lumipharon wrote:If I get more tc's, it mean I can roll with a revolver + thermals, emag for access, adrenal for the rare chance I ever get stunned, etc etc.

Traitors are weak shit right now though. Remove AI for ONE WEEK. I would dearly like to see how things would playout without the antag cockblocker 9000.

No, you can't afford all those things.

Revolver = 14
Emag = 6
Thermals = 6
Adrenals = 6

Plus that's 7 bullets to kill crew members until you get access to an autolathe. I'm literally the only person I've known to make a secret maint. autolathe for revolvers.

Incomptinence · Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:11 am

100% more crystals and 50% more crystals while similar are not exactly the same thing.

During the doubling many of the actual weapons were repriced slightly higher, because for some reason antags with the literal objective to kill someone much of the time were buying things to kill people with a lot.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:20 am #105757

Here's the thing lumi

Your ideas are nice and all, but people have been claiming those ideas for years, our current traitor system is a joke and is not as powerful as they used to be.

Increasing their TC is ludicrously simple, easy and quick to do and revert.

Doing so does not mean we can't ever use a future faction system or whatever else, it also means we can revert the TC changes if someone does come up with a better system.

Frankly anyone who plays the game on a regular basis will understand the dire situation traitor is in.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:07 am #105762

Plan TC price adjustments instead of adding more TC.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:43 am #105767

Scott wrote:Plan TC price adjustments instead of adding more TC.

Love to mate but my attempts to do so on IRC got me banned.

In addition we've already examined the implications of the TC increase, the whole idea is not to change individual items but to simply give traitors more options and the capability to buy more items.

Finally, you demand we make plans, yet I approach people on IRC about said plans and I get banned and my PR closed because of that. Explain to me why I should make the effort to make plans when the powers that be don't care if I do or don't have a plan and shut down all argumentation on git with the sole excuse that I once made a similar attempt a few months ago.

Incomptinence · Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:46 am

I would actually like to see TC and item costs rescaled to 100.

Increasing a whole decimal place over the original 10 would make more sense for the purposes of fine tuning, doubling has allowed what half TC costs compared to the original design?

Actionb · Post by **Actionb** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:50 am #105770

Please stop dragging the silicons into this.
- you can smash cameras
- 1tc toolbox
- 1tc AI detector
- 3tc for being untrackable
- EMP kit royally fucks any cyborg (and headsets to counter "AI HALP")
- turning off lights can be suprisingly effective
- spend 1 minute at round start to find wires, doesn't even need insuls
If you believe the AI is going to be a threat to your plans, gear accordingly. And no, that doesn't mean you have to purchase all of the above items. Use your brain and skills.
With that in mind, an increase to the TC would give traitors a lot more needed flexibility, if the AI turns out to be VALIDYELLER 9000.

This cycle of nerfs needs to stop. Nerfing everything instead of buffing the cause of a problem is the wrong way to go...
Yelling 'REMOVE SECBORGS' is just that. Malf/Traitor AI/Traitor Roboticist without secborgs: hugbox (<- you fiends..) . By removing secborgs or nerfing the AI, you would be removing threats to yourself should you be antag. Defanging security in any way whatsoever just to be on par with your common antag once again, is also removing threats.
And guess what! Not feeling threatened is one of the biggest complaints in the community right now.

Let traitors have more syndicate tools than emag + revolver + soap by increasing the TC amount. If it turns out to be a horrible idea, we get a few days of hillarity and then revert it.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:58 am #105798

Scott wrote:Plan TC price adjustments instead of adding more TC.

No. The relative price of most items is fine (with exceptions). Traitors are too weak in general (at least their tools are). Increasing TC count remedies this.

Somehow people think this will lead to one traitor murderboning the entire station every round. nuke ops get more gear, are a coordinated team of 5 and regularly get dunked by a clown with a banana.