The death of Box station?

Danowar · Post by **Danowar** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:14 am #105651

So from what I'm hearing ingame, Box might be getting phased out for Metastation. My question is: why? I thought it was obvious that people favored Box since, despite Basil running Metastation for awhile, it was often a low-pop station in comparison to Sybil (which seems even worse for Meta since it is a bit bigger than Box). I know Metastation has been around for a few years now, but I don't understand why there seems to be plans for suddenly making it the standard station map for Sybil.

Surely I'm not the only one who favors Box here, am I? I know it's been Sybil's bread-and-butter for awhile now, but I think it fits the theme of SS13 being a metal deathtrap far better than Metastation's "comfy" wide-open spaces.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:16 am #105654

I just find metastation too safe and secure. Box is an intentionally shitty map, with designed weaknesses and scarcity of resources. Whereas metastation is a paradise packed full of junk and gives everyone whatever they want.

Post by **MrStonedOne** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:24 am #105659

Right now, sybil is running metastation because somebody mentioned that it should in ooc, then others agreed, then a vote was had, and meta won, and I was asked to change it to meta.

As for what happens after that....

no fucking idea.

leibniz · Post by **leibniz** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:28 am #105660

Ikarrus wrote:I just find metastation too safe and secure. Box is an intentionally shitty map, with designed weaknesses and scarcity of resources. Whereas metastation is a paradise packed full of junk and gives everyone whatever they want.

I agree, while a large maint is nice, things like the securitron in the armory are a turn-off.

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:28 am #105661

If there isn't a dedicated boxstation server I will probably stop playing and if I stop playing down the line I'd probably stop coding, or worse, not stop coding.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:35 am #105667

Jesus Christ it's hilarious how much some people don't like metastation.
Mindlessly playing the same map over and over is pretty terrible you know.

They're just maps. They have different strengths and weaknesses but ultimately it doesn't change how the game is played, and if anything, makes things less stagnant.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:35 am #105668

lumipharon wrote:Jesus Christ it's hilarious how much some people don't like metastation.
Mindlessly playing the same map over and over is pretty terrible you know.

We're mindless because we don't share your opinion, is that it?

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:37 am #105669

No, people that say they're going to stop playing because of the map with little to no explaination as to why the difference in map ruins the game for them are mindlessly hating difference.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:41 am #105671

lumipharon wrote:No, people that say they're going to stop playing because of the map with little to no explaination as to why the difference in map ruins the game for them are mindlessly hating difference.

The only one who hasn't provided a reason here is Incoming, but I know his reasons because he's stated his many times before. Which are more or less in line with the reasons already stated here by others.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:42 am #105673

Clearly, A difference in opinion must indicate such to a mind as clandestine and brilliant as that
At that level of intillect things are not opinions, or philosophy, they are either fact or they are not, and anyone who cannot see things that way possesses an inferior mind incapable of little more than drooling eating pooping and reproducing.

Metastation isn't bad, it's just an inferior product, I'll eat a mc-chicken, but why the fuck should I when there is rotisserie roasting at home?

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:43 am #105675

and I have heard endless in OOC, an previous threads/discussions about it where people effectively say they hate meta and refuse to play on notbox.
Just because I say this here doesn't mean I'm directly attacking every person in the thread. Unless you sincerely believe that I'm wrong, and that there aren't lots of people that strongly dislike meta for no proper reason.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:46 am #105677

I just don't believe you've bothered to ask them in an environment conducive to fleshed out discussion.

OOC is pretty terrible for that, it's usually filled with random discussions and people are generally distracted by actually playing the game.

I'm just saying that just because they haven't given a reason doesn't mean there aren't any. We're providing plenty of that here.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:46 am #105678

I'm pretty sure nobody said we're permanently removing box.

People can't go one hour without freaking out about trying a new map.

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:48 am #105679

I've given my reasons multiple times; it's too big, it's too safe, there a ton of rooms that exist entirely for the sake of flavor. There's entirely too much given for free at roundstart, there's no scarcity of resources. There's places on the map that could probably survive 5 meteor waves in succession. You can always find a place to hide, even at high pop, you don't ever come into conflict with anyone unless both sides specifically want to.

Metastation is a map that was designed to make people feel comfortable, boxstation is a map that's been mercilessly tweaked to make make people feel vulnerable. My preferred environment is one where the very structure of the station is as much a hazard as the antagonists who exist in it. That's why I like box so much more. The game that I enjoy playing doesn't really seem to exist on metastation. It's nothing personal, it just ain't my bag or the direction I feel like map design should be working towards.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:58 am #105685

lumipharon wrote:Jesus Christ it's hilarious how much some people don't like metastation.
Mindlessly playing the same map over and over is pretty terrible you know.

They're just maps. They have different strengths and weaknesses but ultimately it doesn't change how the game is played, and if anything, makes things less stagnant.

I'd rather play box for eternity than meta. Meta just doesn't work for me. In addition to what Ikarrus pointed out about being a safe paradise, there are no dead areas. It's always crowded everywhere. If you think traitors can't breathe in Box, it will be even worse in Meta.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:59 am #105688

What's the difference in resources between the maps?

From memory, the only things that stand out is rng free gun in the armory, a multi belt in maint (which is inferior in every way to the trashbag in box maint), and I THINK a pair of insulated gloves somewhere.
How on earth is Box a death trap compared to metastation? They're both safe as fuck, over all.

The defining difference for me, is that metastation has intelligent maint access, so medstaff can go into maint from medbay, and the maint airlocks from there to the open corridor they can also use. This lets you use it as an emergency access route (like when they is a plasma fire).
On box, you can go from medbay into maint as a medstaff, then you're just stuck there. There is no logical point to even getting access to the maint door at all.

But I mean both maps are good and well thought out, and I'd sure as hell rather play both then just play one till the end of time.

Scott wrote:I'd rather play box for eternity than meta. Meta just doesn't work for me. In addition to what Ikarrus pointed out about being a safe paradise, there are no dead areas. It's always crowded everywhere. If you think traitors can't breathe in Box, it will be even worse in Meta.

Box is dead around arrivals, and around library/chapel, although both of those are visible to anyone going to science.
Meta has arrivals/library, and escape/chapel. Other then the chapel though, there is NOTHING down at escape to go to, other then maint.

I unno, basically I can't understand how people can feel so strongly about any map when they're not even that different. They have a bridge box with a main corridor around it, with the departments branching off that, and the AI on a satallite.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:01 am #105690

If it's so great why is basil unoccupied compared with sibyl?

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:03 am #105691

No lumi, Meta isn't well thought out. At least not for the play style that evolved in Box. We're a Box community, you have to deal with that.

Metastation is undoubtedly an achievement, completing a map of its size and maintaining it is Hard. But it's just no good for 50+ people, in my opinion.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:05 am #105692

Who wants to play a dead server, and lots of people don't like a different map.
a couple of years ago, when I first started playing on badger, sybil was DEAD AS FUCK, and badger (with metastation) was constantly high pop. Shit changes.
I'm not even defendin Meta as glorioussuperiormap, just that fact that the differences are so small that there's nothing really worth complaining about.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:09 am #105694

lumipharon wrote: a couple of years ago, when I first started playing on badger, sybil was DEAD AS FUCK, and badger (with metastation) was constantly high pop. Shit changes..

You're a lying shit.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:13 am #105697

No, really.
Sybil died for like, a week or some shit.
Even after it came back, for months it stayed dead, and ony slowly bounced back because the same old story. Person gets on, sees no one on server 1, loads of people on server 2. Who wants to play 2 pop server, regardless of map?

TechnoAlchemist · Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:14 am

Scott wrote:
lumipharon wrote: a couple of years ago, when I first started playing on badger, sybil was DEAD AS FUCK, and badger (with metastation) was constantly high pop. Shit changes..
You're a lying shit.

I started playing on Basil and I can confirm that it was highpop with Metastation.

Anyways, I think Meta is much better, it really opens up opportunities for stealth traitors, and it makes it much easier to get away with lowkey gameplay which really hails to the nature of traitor/ling/cult. I think that Meta is much more in the spirit of ss13.

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:16 am #105699

People loved badger (the real, original badger) more because of how it was ran than what map it was running. There was another server running meta that was dead and when badger died, it didn't suddenly gain all the people who had been on badger.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:18 am #105703

TechnoAlchemist wrote:
Scott wrote:
lumipharon wrote: a couple of years ago, when I first started playing on badger, sybil was DEAD AS FUCK, and badger (with metastation) was constantly high pop. Shit changes..
You're a lying shit.
I started playing on Basil and I can confirm that it was highpop with Metastation.

Anyways, I think Meta is much better, it really opens up opportunities for stealth traitors, and it makes it much easier to get away with lowkey gameplay which really hails to the nature of traitor/ling/cult. I think that Meta is much more in the spirit of ss13.

lumipharon wrote:No, really.
Sybil died for like, a week or some shit.
Even after it came back, for months it stayed dead, and ony slowly bounced back because the same old story. Person gets on, sees no one on server 1, loads of people on server 2. Who wants to play 2 pop server, regardless of map?

I was here before and during Badger, it was popular during HBL and then it died. It never dominated the population scale.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:19 am #105704

The only time Sybil was dead was when it was hit by DDOSs constantly for like a week.

Badger was hosted by crossbowman at the time, so it wasn't hit the same way that Sybil did.

It had trouble recovering from that because of coder drama. I still remember when Badger station nearly killed coderbus, with Aranclanos and Cheridan as the only active contributors remaining. Everyone else jumped ship.

Badger ended when crossbowman decided to close it down and join forces with SoS.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:14 am #105710

Meta is fun sometimes. Having a few rounds today was a blast.

Is it good all the time? Probably not.

John_Oxford · Post by **John_Oxford** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:30 am #105712

Meh.

Doesn't bother me a bit, hell, i'd play on a ported version of goon if it men't something new.

Box is box, its the same old shit we have had forever

Meta is bigger, roomier, and has more shit in it. Box on steriods essentially.

It doesn't bother me, meta's pretty cool, so is box.

deputi · Post by **deputi** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:51 am #105714

I really do love the hypocrisy of these metashills. If you complain about their precious map, they tell you to "deal with it" or embrace change" while they refuse to take their own advice when directed to bagil. If all the people that voted for meta went to bagil then they would easily reach 50+ players combined with the native bagil population and there wouldn't be metafriends anymore because the bagil natives wouldn't be so lonely. However, no one wants to switch servers because they're lazy fucks. This wouldn't be so bad if bagil hosted box while sybil hosted meta but instead the only choice we have right now is high pop meta or low pop meta.

It really amazes me at how people dislike bagil so much that they would make sybil host meta rather than just play on bagil.

TechnoAlchemist · Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:09 am

deputi wrote:I really do love the hypocrisy of these metashills. If you complain about their precious map, they tell you to "deal with it" or embrace change" while they refuse to take their own advice when directed to bagil. If all the people that voted for meta went to bagil then they would easily reach 50+ players combined with the native bagil population and there wouldn't be metafriends anymore because the bagil natives wouldn't be so lonely. However, no one wants to switch servers because they're lazy fucks. This wouldn't be so bad if bagil hosted box while sybil hosted meta but instead the only choice we have right now is high pop meta or low pop meta.

It really amazes me at how people dislike bagil so much that they would make sybil host meta rather than just play on bagil.

MSO said that he was going to put box on basil.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:18 am #105727

Sweet, I'm in

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:46 am #105732

So what's the point of all this? Swapping the maps between the servers?

Just seems like a waste of time.

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:53 am #105733

It's been done before, it didn't work then either. Eventually everything just normalizes. Only thing it does is manually syncs character slots between the servers.

Shadowlight213 · Mon Jul 20, 2015 5:18 am

Meta was literally only on box as long as the vote won for meta. The moment box won, we switched back. (excluding the one extra round we ran due to MSO needing to change configs)
He's currently working on a map rotation system for tg, so its likely that the maps will be changing every so often.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 6:33 am #105745

Alternate maps in bagil at the same time.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:01 am #105753

Both box and meta are good in different ways. No reason we can't run both.

SkipsPro · Post by **SkipsPro** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:59 am #105774

box is so fucking boring. The only reason I played on sybil wasn't because of box. I played because of the high pop. and I'm pretty sure that's why 90% of the people there play on sybil. It's not that it's bad... it's just really really stale. The same situations have happened to me and many other players so many times. How many times has the holodeck been on fire. How many times has the medbay and that hallway area been bombed. How many times have you been killed in that narrow maint hallway between genetics and science where theres no room to manuver. I think it's time for a change. I don't think people actually like box, they're just playing on sybil because it has more players and no one wants to play on snoozefest low pop. Of course I'm not speaking for everyone, but just from what I've noticed, this is what I've concluded.

SkipsPro · Post by **SkipsPro** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:03 am #105776

Scott wrote:
TechnoAlchemist wrote:
Scott wrote:
lumipharon wrote: a couple of years ago, when I first started playing on badger, sybil was DEAD AS FUCK, and badger (with metastation) was constantly high pop. Shit changes..
You're a lying shit.
I started playing on Basil and I can confirm that it was highpop with Metastation.

Anyways, I think Meta is much better, it really opens up opportunities for stealth traitors, and it makes it much easier to get away with lowkey gameplay which really hails to the nature of traitor/ling/cult. I think that Meta is much more in the spirit of ss13.

lumipharon wrote:No, really.
Sybil died for like, a week or some shit.
Even after it came back, for months it stayed dead, and ony slowly bounced back because the same old story. Person gets on, sees no one on server 1, loads of people on server 2. Who wants to play 2 pop server, regardless of map?

I was here before and during Badger, it was popular during HBL and then it died. It never dominated the population scale.

So was I, and I distinctly remember a time where badger dominated the pop, and everyone joined it. There was a reason there were threads mourning the death of badger. I remember server 1 being barren as fuck. Everyone just played on server 2 (badger) for like a round, and everyone started coming back because when you see the server list, you click the one with more people. Well at least that's what I and many other people do.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:35 am #105781

Box is not a bad map.

Box however is fucking stale and overplayed. You literally can't run the same map over and over and over and expect people not to get bored.

Variety is a good thing.

If you absolutely can't play on anything other than box....I seriously don't get how you function as a human being.

Incomptinence · Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:53 am

I prefer variety but meta isn't new, it is a lot of nice things but it isn't that.

Good to see change though.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:03 am #105789

Incomptinence wrote:I prefer variety but meta isn't new, it is a lot of nice things but it isn't that.

Good to see change though.

I'd like to see new map concepts being developed, however for a lot of people meta is new.

Hell for people who have played it before it feels new.

Post by **oranges** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:32 pm #105825

I like box, it plays well

peoplearestrange · Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:04 pm

Falamazeer wrote:If it's so great why is basil unoccupied compared with sibyl?

This is such a stupid course of reasoning. Does no one remember that basil was on Box for the longest time and it changed nothing in terms of population of basil.

I also noticed no decrease of players because of metastation, people here just sound like old men nattering that it "was better in the old days".

Also why has no one suggested the idea of a map rotation? Is it possible? can we get it so it does 5 rounds box 5 rounds meta?

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:43 pm #105855

peoplearestrange wrote:
Falamazeer wrote:If it's so great why is basil unoccupied compared with sibyl?
This is such a stupid course of reasoning. Does no one remember that basil was on Box for the longest time and it changed nothing in terms of population of basil.

I also noticed no decrease of players because of metastation, people here just sound like old men nattering that it "was better in the old days".

Also why has no one suggested the idea of a map rotation? Is it possible? can we get it so it does 5 rounds box 5 rounds meta?

I actually made a suggestion thread a few weeks ago for a map rotation.

Lumbermancer · Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:23 pm

Scott wrote:
lumipharon wrote: a couple of years ago, when I first started playing on badger, sybil was DEAD AS FUCK, and badger (with metastation) was constantly high pop. Shit changes..
You're a lying shit.

It's true. I was a Badger guy as well. Sybil was laggy as shit back in the day too.

Either way this thread is stupid. The answer to the loaded question "The death of box station?" should be "No", followed by a lock.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:15 am #106037

I played Meta some more. The biggest reason I dislike it is that it feels like there's way too many resources. There's no scarcity, hell, there's even a public autolathe. Eugh.

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:02 am #106056

That's two things I dislike about meta.
Public lathe (that fucking cunts steal round start to make their maint base so they can murder bone with infinite revolver ammo), and the fucking CHEM SETUP in XENOBIO.
Like seriously, what reason does xenobio need this?

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:43 am #106069

lumipharon wrote:That's two things I dislike about meta.
Public lathe (that fucking cunts steal round start to make their maint base so they can murder bone with infinite revolver ammo), and the fucking CHEM SETUP in XENOBIO.
Like seriously, what reason does xenobio need this?

I clearly need it for my radium

callanrockslol · Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:46 am

lumipharon wrote:That's two things I dislike about meta.
Public lathe (that fucking cunts steal round start to make their maint base so they can murder bone with infinite revolver ammo), and the fucking CHEM SETUP in XENOBIO.
Like seriously, what reason does xenobio need this?

Don't talk shit about public autolathe that thing was the shit. Chem dispensers outside chemistry is dumb. Lots of fairly major design things like that will need to be addressed if it gets put on a rotation.

Lumbermancer wrote:Sybil was laggy as shit back in the day too.

Barely playable at peak times and still the best SS13 experiences I ever had somehow.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:07 am #106147

Amelius wrote:I played Meta some more. The biggest reason I dislike it is that it feels like there's way too many resources. There's no scarcity, hell, there's even a public autolathe. Eugh.

It's an entirely different style of play from Box, We NEED more of this.

Also, We had a pretty overwhelming choice for Meta over Box last night again. Same people bitching here that were bitching in-game.

Clearly people don't want to only play box anymore.

peoplearestrange · Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:14 am

If you have feedback for the metastation map it be great to plonk it in the feedback thread for it.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3090

As Tornadium says it is a different playstyle to box being a very different map, however a rotation in how you play the game can be a great thing. It helps keep it fresh and means you end up with new things to work with.