Another Nuke Thread

[Scones]

I play Security a lot but I'm a bit baffled.

What am I supposed to do, realistically, to fight nuke ops when they are decently equipped? As Security, my primary method of dealing with people is stuns - But they can totally negate stuns. So I move on to lethals, but my gun does 20 damage and they have 30 laser resist on hardsuits, not to mention an energy shield being able to entirely stop it. So that leaves us with three bullet weapons, one of which is insanely unreliable thanks to some very funny code, and the other two don't have lethals.

I tried to make this as concise as possible but nuke is really not a good time right now. We got it quite a few times last night and that was in part my motivation for making this thread. The gamemode seems to depend on nuke ops getting tarpitted: but if there are not enough crew to tarpit, security can and will lose 100% of straight up fights against a half decent nuke op, while they bring to the table a semiautomatic weapon which can 2shot you and if they are decently smart, an adrenal implant to absolutely negate any stun.

Is this intended? I was always under the impression that nuke winrates should actually be below 50%, because they are intentionally hard to play but have the right stuff if you know what you are doing. As it stands, if you are below a certain crew threshold you are guarenteed to win because you can brute force your way through with a very powerful gun, the crew having castrated armor values, and the fact that five guys with guns that two shot and maybe a murderborg all of whom have flash protect and fairly high resists is... Very hard to stop.

I don't see nuke teams lose often anymore and when they do it is 90%+ of the time because of new players on the team.

The issue that myself and countless others have brought up is still very much the culprit at the root of the issues: ops don't have to invest in a weapon and as a result they can buy so much support gear that victory is ggez every time. Beyond that there is so much "free stuff" and telecrystal scaling is WILDLY BROKEN (140 TC vs 30man station) that they are the defenition of overequipped.

I don't know what to do or suggest, I used to really enjoy nuke but systematically losing almost every nuke round because I am outgunned instead of outplayed is the definition of unfun - And I'm writing this from a Security standpoint, I have honestly no idea what hopes the average unarmored crewman has against nuke guns. We all get 2shot regardless of the uniforms we wear.

[Saegrimr]

Treat it like wizard, swarm them. You're not gonna win a 1v1fitemefaggot.

Yes its intentional, they're heavily fucking armed. There are some things that could use changing like bioterror rounds though.

[Scones]

Treat it like wizard, swarm them. You're not gonna win a 1v1fitemefaggot.

Yes its intentional, they're heavily fucking armed. There are some things that could use changing like bioterror rounds though.

But unlike a wizard, there are five of them. Who are immune to stuns. And have guns.

It's an unfair comparison.

And yes, Bioterror should probably just be removed. I hate the 1shot kill because there is absolutely NOTHING to be done about it, instant and total removal of any person. If you want it to be the new tide-stopper make armor block it but fuck am I so done with LOL I SHOT THE HOS ONCE HES DEAD NOW

[CPTANT]

Nuke ops scaling when?

[invisty]

Nuke ops scaling when?

I think we need to wait for antag datums first? Is that a thing yet?

[lumipharon]

Lube spray still royally fucks over all ops, unless they have nodrop + adrenal.
Just fucking remove nodrop, it is so fucking gamey and shit.

During ops, the detective is very much the hero the station deserves, since he already has the best gun in the game, coupled with the fact that he can overcome e-shields.
Also about e-shields - 2 suggestions.
1: Perhaps remove the reflect?
While it's fucking hilarious watching scrubs stun or laser themselves to death, being on the crew side, it's pretty fucking gay when a retard is trying to stun through an e-shield, and gets you or someone else killed because of it.
2: Make it have a 'charge'. ie: it can absorb X amount of damage (still ignores stuns altogether), after which it shuts down and has to charge up for a while before you can turn it on again.

These two changes would make them still just as powerful for a brief engagement/letting you charge headlong into sec, but it means if they're smart, they can wear down your shield (stam shots do more damage and use less charge then lethals, and is also available on tasers, so that's another smart option), and then take you down while it's charging.

Basically, it would add depth and counter play to an item that currently is just 'if enemy has energy gun, enemy = rekt'.


DOuble sword can stay the same because it's melee only and two handed, which is a huge drawback.

[Incomptinence]

Pretty sure they used to scale the number of ops.

[PKPenguin321]

It's an unfair comparison.

not really, no

nuke ops only happens on high pop, meaning sybil, which is usually like 60+ players at the minimum

wizard has insane getaway tactics to extend his lifespan, and the round depends on him being alive. he's not expected to take a lot of damage, since he's not very tanky, and he's only one person. with him, it's 1 vs 60+

nuke ops are five people, but instead of having their gear suited to make them able to evade death, they're heavily armored and tanky. they charge at death and come off damaged, bit by bit, every time. to compensate they're given things that help them not die in one hit (the eshield, antistuns) and ranged weapons. with them, it's 5 v 60+, or 1 v 12+ for a better ratio. can you imagine trying to fight 12+ people, which a number of will likely have stuns, while the rest will be mindlessly trying to damage you, without some form of stun resistance or range advantage?

nuke ops is not 1v1. when it is, the nuke op is designed to win. when it's 1v12 (which it usually will be, since the ops are the sole antagonist and therefore the entire station has a good reason to get some valids on), the nuke op is designed to have a shot at surviving and maybe pick off a few people while they're at it.



but i do agree with you on bioterror darts, that shit's gotta go

[Scones]

nuke ops only happens on high pop, meaning sybil, which is usually like 60+ players at the minimum

What? This is false, nuke is a 20-ready gamemode. It obviously is entirely nonfunctional at anything near the minimum populations, but it still appears.

Your post basically ignores my argument, which is that if the gamemode is reliant on tarpitting from the crew, why can it appear at low populations where the security force will be undermanned? Everything they have is too cushy, and makes life too easy. Combat is not a concern, they will win 100% of the time to the point where there is no skill involved. They get a 2shot weapon for free so then they just buy implant kits and it's over. There has been a gradual creep in nuke op power where people think a low winrate is indicative of them needing buffs when in fact it was purely a player issue.

[Scott]

Lube spray still royally fucks over all ops, unless they have nodrop + adrenal.
Just fucking remove nodrop, it is so fucking gamey and shit.

I am never removing nodrop, just git gud. Nuke ops are supposed to be OP, Nodrop is part of the job.

[Steelpoint]

How the fuck do you 'git gud' against a enemy where you can't even fucking disarm them of their weapon or shield?

Do you expect security to pull a fucking bomb out of their ass whenever Nuke Ops attack the station?

There's a difference between a difficult and hard to beat antag and giving a antag literal god mode.

[Steelpoint]

I reopened my revert PR.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10827

[Cik]

nuke ops only happens on high pop, meaning sybil, which is usually like 60+ players at the minimum

What? This is false, nuke is a 20-ready gamemode. It obviously is entirely nonfunctional at anything near the minimum populations, but it still appears.

Your post basically ignores my argument, which is that if the gamemode is reliant on tarpitting from the crew, why can it appear at low populations where the security force will be undermanned? Everything they have is too cushy, and makes life too easy. Combat is not a concern, they will win 100% of the time to the point where there is no skill involved. They get a 2shot weapon for free so then they just buy implant kits and it's over. There has been a gradual creep in nuke op power where people think a low winrate is indicative of them needing buffs when in fact it was purely a player issue.

i think the bulldog is too much. certainly it is at least as good as the C-20R. if you are going to use the optimal road there is never a reason to buy anything but kit to surround it. if you buy nodrop adrenal you should require donation to have a primary weapon other than maybe an e-sword, as it is lolbulldog allows this ridiculous implant spam. personally i never use it, however i can see the problem.

tl;dr keep nodrop, remove free bulldogs and replace with something else, either C-20r or perhaps just remove them altogether. default bulldog means tox rounds are ludicrously cheap, and even the default slug is extremely robust.

edit: and is it me or is the C-20R, a 14 TC weapon with 2 tc magazines (of which you'll need what, 3 minimum?) is roundly eclipsed by an entirely free gun? hell the 5.56 battle rifle is alright but it's probably STILL not as powerful as like 12 tc of ammo in a FREE GUN YOU GET FOR THE ENTIRE TEAM

now that i think about i think the problem isn't nodrops or adrenals, it's bulldogs which allows the newcop team to spend like 90% on personal equipment that isn't weapons, when most of their TC should be on arming themselves and getting basics like emags and a borg.

[lumipharon]

Nodrops mean the average crewman is more or less helpless against said op.
You cannot reasonably beat an op by beating them to death with an extinguisher, while they unload bullets into your face.

No-drops + e-shield means that sec are also fucked, unless they have projectile weapons (basically the detective) or manage to stun baton them, dodging all the gun fire.

No drops + e-shield + adrenal implant means you're fucked unless you're the detective. (because stam damage).

[Cik]

greytide can beat an op with a stech, so can security. it doesn't really do enough damage and has a low mag cap

it's the bulldog+nodrop, in which the nodrop is effectively free as the op doesn't need to pay for the weapon that's an issue. if you remove nodrop they can still buy an eshield, adrenals, or whatever and they'll still be nigh invulnerable.

[lumipharon]

Even if you don't have the bulldog (that I agree is way to good to be free, considering slugs are extremely powerful and cheap), you can still butcher people.

E-sword + shield lets you just go medieval on the crew since they can't disarm you (also hilarious block chance).
Flashbangs let you disable mobs.
Stechkin lets easily gun 1 or 2 sec officers who have to get into melee range to possibly hurt you.

And from a fluff point of view, how do cave men syndicate operatives have implants that NT can only get after doing advanced R&D to unlock?

[Cik]

i still think bulldog is the problem. once the ops actually have to buy their own weapons the enormous amount of 'free' tc they get from already having a weapon that's probably worth 14+ TC already will have to go to the weapon. while nodrop+adrenal+eshield is a nightmare, it's also like 40TC for a single op, and isn't nodrop vulnerable to EMP anyway? you should be bringing the ion with you anyway for the syndiborg.

basically the ops are nightmarish on paper but unless i'm way off on my math a nodrop+adrenal+eshield is a pipedream superop that can't even really be made except PERHAPS because of the bulldog.

[Incomptinence]

I am starting to regret even being a part in suggesting changing it back to slugs when default buckshot was turning out to be a pervasive friendly fire issue.

[Oldman Robustin]

I agree nodrop is BS, but it looks like it's out or on the way out (wasn't on my radio yesterday).

Aside from that I think everything on 30+ pop is fair game. Nukeop on 20-30 isn't really fair, but I'd still take it over the 2 hour late night extended traitor rounds anyway.

Eshield nukeops are a minority. You still need a free hand to reload guns so the eshield will also have to go down from time to time.

There a countless strategies for beating them too. I got rekt by a simple water spray trap in maint just last night, lube will rek even no-slip users, a variety of chem grenades will ruin their day, tear gas is an under-used but has huge potential against ops... many rely on their jetpack for internals and that's disabled when they bag it on station, tear gas stuns and makes them drop their shit (and unable to pick it up until the smoke clears), melee is still the great equalizer with push and disarm ruining an eshielder's day in a heartbeat, even with adrenals you should be able to get their shit before they do. Batons are reliable, cocky operatives like to rush in and don't appreciate the robustness of someone camping a corner/closet/doorway with a baton. If you don't have a detective make it a priority to get his gun if you get a chance, detective has a huge advantage against ops (One time I faced them while undercover and it felt downright unfair, just looking like a slackjaw greyshirt before popping them one by one as they filtered toward the bridge). If you can get a syndicate pistol from a deadop then you can use that too. Flamethrowers give no shits about eshields. Drag beepsky with you and turn on unauthorized weapons, etc.

Shotguns are not as much of a cure as people think, it is still very difficult to bring down an operative with an eshield just from shotgun stamina damage.

Or just rely on station doors/walls/terrain to keep them away from you, eventually they will run dry on ammo, make a mistake, or otherwise get overrun by crewtide. Most ops do not carry welders.

[Cik]

i think nodrop is fine, it just shouldn't be standard equipment outside of some niche off the wall strategy

in my mind it only has one real purpose, that is, stopping your L6 from being disarmed. it should never ever really be used for anything else. the only reason it is is because bulldogs became free and super effective, meaning there's no downside to having an all bulldog squad with nodrops or whatever

[Incomptinence]

Could some of the super payguns like the l6 have the nodrop thing put on them? Advanced tacticool grips would make sense for the super guns better than Mr Budgetneverdropanything.

[lumipharon]

Back when we got stuck with shitty pins, I suggested the idea that syndie pins be purchasable for nuke ops.
So if you have said SAW, you could invest 1 or 2 tc to stop enemies from slipping you and murdering your whole team with it, where as the pistol/shotgun, you might decide to save those tcs.
Basically, give the ops more strategic choice, like whether to invest in no slips or not.

Instead, we all guns with syndie pins which is dull as fuck, and doesn't punish people for being dumb/reward crew for being aggresive nearly as much.