Morphine needs a throw nerf

DrPillzRedux · Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:34 am

I'm going on record to speak as an actual medic that morphine doesn't magically just go through your skin and into your blood. You can throw a bottle of morphine (in-game) on someone and it knocks them out for 5+ minutes. Morphine needs to be in the blood stream. You need to actually inject it to do anything.

It seems like this is the new hydro-chloride but 10x worse since you don't actually need to inject it.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:53 am #112290

Oh yeah throwing Morphine is awful. There's no defense against it either, and for some antags like wizard, it's just gg no re if you get hit by it even if you have the hardsuit. Morphine in general just needs a rework tbh, the "benefits" it says it has for speed and shit are so hard to actually get without putting yourself to sleep that it's just not worth it. It needs to be an inject chem, and also have a higher threshold for the bonuses it gives without putting to sleep.

DrPillzRedux · Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:13 am

Morphine is naturally going to make you drowsy, usually in large quantities or with a continuous drip though. I've never seen it knock someone the fuck out.

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:16 am #112298

yeah, it's ridiculous. it's actually probably one of the most effective weapons on the station and it takes all of about 5 seconds to get.

things it penetrates:

stun resistance
armor
breath masks(?)
reflect weapons like eshield/desword

it's effectively a 5 minute stun that goes through more resistances than even military weapons do. it's honestly pretty comical.

DrPillzRedux · Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:23 am

Plus it makes you addicted.

Actionb · Post by **Actionb** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:23 am #112300

The problem isn't the morphine.
It's the bottles applying all their contents after being hit by a 30-units, almost impossible to dodge syringe in bottle form.
I could understand that you'd be utterly fucked after being hit by a bottle full of acid. But if somebody throws a bottle of morphine at you, unless he literally hits you in the eyes with it, you should just shrug it off since nothing enters your bloodstream.
Morphine bottles are bad due to their availability - but run into a competent chemist throwing GGNORE beakers and you will wish it would have been just morphine.

Chemists were terrifying enough with syringe guns, even with their terrible RoF. They really didn't need a buff allowing tons of 100u throwable-syringes in a chemist satchel.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:37 am #112302

DrPillzRedux wrote:Morphine is naturally going to make you drowsy, usually in large quantities or with a continuous drip though. I've never seen it knock someone the fuck out.

If 30 units of morphine hit you, after about 5 or 6 seconds, you get knocked out for about one or two minutes, so it's GGNORE for wizards, Ops, and basically everything else because you fall asleep.

The way to fix it, if I'll be honest, isn't to nerf bottle throwing in general, but to nerf Morphine. The problem with morphine is, as said earlier, that it's SO EASY to get, and with there being something like thirty bottles of it on-station, you got, assuming none of them miss, a total of sixty minutes of total paralysis that is almost impossible to dodge because of how fast thrown objects travel. They're faster than bullets.

Edit : Thinking about it, I did not guess that you were talking about real life with that sentence, so... yeah.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:46 am #112305

No, nerfing morphine into the ground is not an answer, it isn't OP in the doses it is normally worked with IE syringe gun.
It just needs to stop functioning on contact.

Which is clearly possible to seperate, with welder fluid as an example, If it's splashed on you it adds fire stacks, if you drink/inject it it causes toxin damage

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:04 pm #112310

The workplace "accidents" PR introduced this as a way of making slips dangerous. I do not believe that Ikarrus intended that feature to be exploited in a way that allowed chemists to turn beakers into bioterror weapons. Why, just adding OD level morphine, mute toxin, and filling the rest of the beaker with a chem of your choice for damage, and you have yourself a weapon that silently downs your target in seconds, giving him very little time to fight back.

This exploit can be patched by changing the reagent transfer feature to have dropped container spill only on objects, turfs, and the container's original holder.

sirnat · Post by **sirnat** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:07 pm #112311

Just a thing, I as a traitor chef with no bartender made a backpack full of neurotoxin drinks and threw them at people and then e sworded them once they went down. Its ridiculously funny but op

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:10 pm #112313

Yeah Neurotoxin is incredible, but you need medbay cooperation to make it work and your supply is limited by the amount of morphine you have, so it's kinda balanced in that sense.

But yeah, the problem is that Morphine is a touch chem, and that needs to change.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:18 pm #112315

So... just saying there is this chemical called DMSO that opens the pores and allows chemicals to seep through the pores perhaps we should have it as a traitor chem like... 3 tc or something and you need it in a ratio that actually makes the tc cost hurt

Akkryls · Post by **Akkryls** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:33 pm #112323

Half the chemicals that are being thrown are a bit shit at the moment.
I pissed off a botanist the other day and they threw two large beakers (So 200u) of mutagen at me. Some borg shoved me in cryo so I didn't die from toxins but I was then unconscious for the next 15 minutes or so until admin fun stuff.

Why even bother with syringe guns if you can instantly hit people with large beakers?

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:46 pm #112326

Oh holy shit, this stuff works for large beakers?
That is terrifying.

Not that the whole thing needs nerfed, but some things should be removed from contact absorption.

AdenAbrafo · Post by **AdenAbrafo** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:56 pm #112329

Wasn't contact with chemicals/liquids/whatever one of those big, important things that the people working on chem a while back, mainly goofball I think, were supposed to make sure worked absolutely fine because it doesn't seem that difficult and it's kind of really important to gameplay?

whodaloo · Post by **whodaloo** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:49 pm #112336

I said it in ooc last night and I'll say it again: morphine should not have such a powerful touch reaction full stop. just make the knockout stuff injection only and it'd be waaaay better

TheNightingale · Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:19 pm

Remove topical application from all chemicals except the obvious ones - acid, synthflesh, silver sulfadiazine, styptic powder, ClF3... If you try to apply anything else non-injectionally (say, by throwing a beaker at someone), nothing happens, it doesn't enter the bloodstream, and you waste a perfectly good patch.
Pills, however, still work the same as normal.

What this fixes:
- Workplace accidents are no longer deadly unless you're juggling acid
- Pills become more balanced compared to patches (which can penetrate hardsuits)
- Topical application actually means something

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:51 pm #112346

The problem is NOT morphine (well actually it is, its stupidly OP compared to the old sleep toxin)

The problem is that throwing bottles is OP for basically everything.

What is the point of the syringe gun if throwing bottles is superior in every way?

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 3:05 pm #112352

Beaker hucking nerf: In addition to spilling all its contents at once at the end of the throw that it would gradually spill out contents during the toss as well, since if you throw an open container it's not like all the contents stay neatly in the container until it hits something, that stuff flies everywhere. Meaning you couldn't hit people with meaningful amounts of chems at a distance (though if there were people laying on the floor you could have it spray on them as well as the beaker is in transit).

DrPillzRedux · Fri Aug 14, 2015 3:39 pm

I literally threw and hit 2 heads at almost the same time as a rev, they both passed out shortly and were slaughtered.

Actionb · Post by **Actionb** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 3:44 pm #112357

Just remove the bottle spilling bullshit.
Applying chemicals at a distance are what syringe guns are for. They are very visible, they are limited without science help, the syringe it fires can be blocked/dodged and they do not apply 100 units of chemicals at once.

Ergovisavi · Post by **Ergovisavi** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 4:08 pm #112358

There is already a PR that is working towards fixing this issue, move along. And yes, throwing bottles to auto-inject reagents into people is stupid, but that's mostly a problem with touch reactions defaulting to injecting reagents.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 7:00 pm #112378

Just make it apply them in a touch-based way, not an injection way.

If you want it to apply them in an injection/ingestion way (these are functionally the same thing, right?) force them to RNG for hitting the eyes/mouth when they're not covered. But as I understand it throwing doesn't work like this, so you can't do this.

Erbbu · Post by **Erbbu** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 7:14 pm #112384

Can't you toggle your own throw to catch the bottle if one is thrown at you?

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 7:15 pm #112385

Just revert the Workplace Accidents PR.

John_Oxford · Post by **John_Oxford** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 7:33 pm #112390

It seems like a "I got dunked by a bottle of morphine, plz nurf" thread.

But you do have a good point, a bottle of morphine is a pretty robust weapon, maybe instead of nerfing it, make it less avalible?

Fri Aug 14, 2015 7:42 pm

how about we remove bottle throwing because it's a shit fucking change

imagine if you have a syringe gun with 30u per shot instead of 15u, and you didn't have to reload, and the shots teleported to the target instead of travelling like a normal projectile

that's bottlethrowing

revert 10244 REVERT 10244 YOU ARE WORST PR

whodaloo · Post by **whodaloo** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 7:49 pm #112395

PKPenguin321 wrote:how about we remove bottle throwing because it's a shit fucking change

imagine if you have a syringe gun with 30u per shot instead of 15u, and you didn't have to reload, and the shots teleported to the target instead of travelling like a normal projectile

that's bottlethrowing

revert 10244 REVERT 10244 YOU ARE WORST PR

or you could change chems to not have retarded touch reactions
so you could peg people with a thrown glass of welder fluid for hilarity but you couldn't knock someone out with a single morphine toss
best of both worlds really

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:35 pm #112399

Iirc only half of a reagent container's contents are applied to sort of simulate that some of it would spill/not make contact with the target.

It might be better to make it depend on distance, ie the farther it's thrown the less is applied on contact.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:28 pm #112408

Ikarrus wrote:Iirc only half of a reagent container's contents are applied to sort of simulate that some of it would spill/not make contact with the target.

It might be better to make it depend on distance, ie the farther it's thrown the less is applied on contact.

No.

Uncounterable applying of chemicals is severe powercreep and invalidates the special items on the station that were meant for this (hypospray, syringe guns).

Applying chemicals through throwing bottles has to go.

Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:33 pm

CPTANT wrote:Applying chemicals through throwing bottles has to go.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:11 pm #112423

Ikarrus wrote:Iirc only half of a reagent container's contents are applied to sort of simulate that some of it would spill/not make contact with the target.

It might be better to make it depend on distance, ie the farther it's thrown the less is applied on contact.

Also no, as far as I know, throwing a bottle of morphine will apply all of it.

AdenAbrafo · Post by **AdenAbrafo** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 12:41 am #112433

spilling/applying chemicals to something does not need to go, chemicals being injected into the bloodstream when they come into contact with something needs to go
spilling/applying needs to be fixed so it isnt dumb though

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 12:54 am #112435

Zilenan91 wrote:
Ikarrus wrote:Iirc only half of a reagent container's contents are applied to sort of simulate that some of it would spill/not make contact with the target.

It might be better to make it depend on distance, ie the farther it's thrown the less is applied on contact.
Also no, as far as I know, throwing a bottle of morphine will apply all of it.

It's RNG driven right now. It applies anywhere from 100% to 50% of the contents.

Code: Select all

reagents.total_volume *= rand(5,10) * 0.1 //Not all of it makes contact with the target

I'm just saying, tangentially to the touch-injection issue, it'd work better if it was distance based instead of pure RNG.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 2:33 am #112447

In principle, lobbing bottles of fluid at someone to splash them with some of it is awesome.

In practice, why the hell does morphine work on touch?!

Sat Aug 15, 2015 2:52 am

Cheimon wrote:In principle, lobbing bottles of fluid at someone to splash them with some of it is awesome.

not really, that's what the syringe gun is for

Post by **lumipharon** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 3:20 am #112453

How does throwing a bottle of morphine at someone's back magically absorb it all through their clothes and into their blood?

Also wouldn't liquid be flying ou of it from the moment you throw it

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 3:23 am #112455

Guys your not thinking big enough throw 3 bluespace beakers full of morphine at someone.

You just put 900u of morphine into their body

Tokiko2 · Post by **Tokiko2** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 3:32 am #112456

Why does splashing, throwing or even spraying someone with something instantly transfer all reagents into their system? I know that this wasn't always the case. Splashing only used to be useful for touch reaction based ones, like pepper spray or acid. If you wanted to poison someone, you had to inject someone. But now? Every single spray bottle is more useful than the hypospray.

I greatly dislike this. Phlogiston has already been nerfed because of this and lost the main reason to exist in the first place which was to ignite stuff constantly which was arguably balanced when you weren't able to easily transfer 100u of it someone by just throwing it.

Lumbermancer · Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:52 am

John_Oxford wrote:It seems like a "I got dunked by a bottle of morphine, plz nurf" thread.

It's exactly that. Playing sec during gang round, escorting Captain around. Combat ensues in hallway, stun guy, other guy throws bottle of morphine at me. Backup arrives, it's under control, but I fall asleep. Sleep sleep sleep. I wake up yay. Back to patrolling, but why do I drop the taser from my hands for no reason? I can't hold anything. Ah yes, my body craves more morphine. I go back to my sec post, and wait, since I'm in no position to do anything. Wait wait wait, shaking a lot. Finally, withdrawal effects are gone. I can go now. Back with Captain in medbay, some halks attack. I get thrown bottle of Chloral in my face. ???

AdenAbrafo · Post by **AdenAbrafo** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 2:54 pm #112520

It seems like everyone was complaining about the wrong stuff back when chem was being changed because a lot of this stuff is dumb & terrible & should not have made it through
Why is ODing so silly and stupid? Why is morphine a knockout drug? Why can it be applied through skin?

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 4:57 pm #112531

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Cheimon wrote:In principle, lobbing bottles of fluid at someone to splash them with some of it is awesome.
not really, that's what the syringe gun is for

Nonsense. The syringe gun is for ranged injections. In principle, vial throwing is for ranged splashings. They are and should in-game be different things, with different rationales behind them.

phil235 · Post by **phil235** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 8:05 pm #112542

Reagent splashing is going to be nerfed by https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/11119 which will fix the morphine throwing exploit.
Reagent reaction on mob will now make a clear distinction between splashing (TOUCH), ingesting/injection (INGEST) , smoke/foam/spray (VAPOR) , and patches (PATCH).

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 8:52 pm #112546

>mfw the guy who does almost(?) exclusively fixes does better balance than the guys who do balance

:^)

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 9:26 pm #112550

>having guys that "Do balance"

Cancer that is just one step above Idea Guys

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:04 pm #112554

Ikarrus wrote:>having guys that "Do balance"

Cancer that is just one step above Idea Guys

Look to Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street to see why this is a horrible idea.

Let's talk about balance and why LoL is better than dota let us now talk about coral so that I can sidestep this conversation so you don't realize that we lack unique heroes and counter heroes because the game is pay2play

callanrockslol · Sun Aug 16, 2015 8:38 am

Bombadil wrote:
Ikarrus wrote:>having guys that "Do balance"

Cancer that is just one step above Idea Guys
Look to Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street to see why this is a horrible idea.

Let's talk about balance and why LoL is better than dota let us now talk about coral so that I can sidestep this conversation so you don't realize that we lack unique heroes and counter heroes because the game is pay2play

Its F2Grind, GW2 is pay2play.