Space Wind, Fastmos, ZASlite, whatever feedback.

Boogeyman · Post by **Boogeyman** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:13 pm #113228

After getting fucked over quite a good amount of times by "space wind" and sending over 10,000 admin helps in frustration as a result, I feel like I am obligated to make this thread. I remember being told that it is NOT an intended feature and upon inquring, KorPhareon assured me that he would personally fix the bug if nobody else would. A bit of time has passed and nothing has happened, so here I am.

The biggest issue I have with space wind is its unpredictability. Whenever I encounter "space wind" it seems like there is no consistency in its appearance or its behavior; almost as if it acts completely randomly. I'll use a real example: It's nearing the end of a typical 6 bomb singuloose round and the station is completely devastated. I'm a changeling, and have yet to murder and assume the identity of the detective. He's not in the shuttle or at the escape area so I decide to head to the Security pods. I start to head to Security passing by the Bar/Medbay hallway, which was caught in between the blasts of two parallel bombs. While heading north, all of a sudden, my character stops moving and moves one tile south. Because my finger is holding down the up arrow key, my character immediately afterwards tries to move north again, but is forced down south one tile, this repeats. After 10 seconds of this back of forth of up and down, up and down, I decide to try to move a tile to the right. This seems to fix the problem, and I am able to move north again. About 3 tiles north, I run into the same problem, and am forced to move left to fix it. This kills about... 45 seconds on an already tight timer and I fail to make it to the pods, and were I not a changeling with fleshmend I would have died without a suit.

In that sort of situation, there is no real way for me to know which tiles are the "safe" tiles and which tiles are the "cursed" tiles. I tried to find some sort of common characteristic linking the two zones, but found none. It doesn't seem to matter if the tile you are on is exposed to space, damaged, unfinished, or functional.The state of the surrounding tiles doesn't seem to matter as this issue persists in all manner of places, such as the Derelict and ground zero of a bomb. I imagine it could possibly have something to do with the magical pressure value that is functionally invisible (you never expect space wind, and you'd have to check the air alarms in all the rooms you enter to expect it) to anyone who would ever be in a situation where it is relevant. Not only is there no real way for me to know where it will occur, there is no real way to know the severity of it. Sometimes, if you simply hold the arrow in the same direction long enough you "push through". Other times this is impossible and you just end up wasting 30 seconds of your time, often times taking severe damage or dying as a result.

I have noticed that there is one thing that effects how your character deals with space wind, and that is run speed. This server has such an ABYSMAL movement speed, honestly and the space wind problem exacerbates that issue. You'd think that with a hardsuit on, you'd fare better against "space" wind right? Well it's actually quite the opposite. Putting on a hard suit severely decreases movement speed, and thus hampers any real resistance you have against space wind. Again, I shall use another example to demonstrate my point. I'm a round start engineer who's setting up the singulo. I set up the field and begin to head in, and space lag into an emitter beam. I open up the engineering airlocks to go back in and surprise! Space wind attack. I struggle to get in for a good 10 seconds with my hardsuit on before resigning to take it off to get back in. After taking the suit off I manage to get in (on an unrelated the idea of "hardsuits" existing in the year 2500 is an absurd one, and it'd be cool if you fags dealt with this reverse anachronism already). In this case, I fared better without the suit, and honestly hardsuits are already such a burden that I dread the thought of having to put one on. Consider that in most rounds things don't go to shit till much later when most people have some degree of hunger or injury and you can see why this is even more obnoxious.

Lastly, as far as I am aware there is no real counter to space wind. I'd assume that magboots WOULD work, but I've not yet tried it and would not be surprised if they didn't. As we all know however, magboots decrease speed even more! Yay! I'm still a tiny bit ignorant about the map and all it's stuff being a migrant, but I think (I may be wrong) that there are very few amounts of magboots on station in the first place. I know that there are none in engineering aside from the CE's, and that is quite the crime indeed.

As I see it, there are a few solutions to the problem.

a. Remove it entirely
b. Increase run speed (should be done anyway)
c. Add some sort of reasonable counter measure against it.
d. MANDATORY: Draw and quarter whoever is responsible for this existing in the first place.

I've really been fucked over way too many times by this "feature" and I think nobody would truly miss it if it were gone.

Boogeyman · Post by **Boogeyman** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:35 pm #113231

One thing I forgot to mention is what I'll term "decreasing resistance". When you take damage, your movement speed lowers, when you are in space without a suit you take damage. If you unsuccessfully predict the nature of the space wind, you will end up taking more damage as you will be exposed to space longer. With this damage, you lower your movement speed and so, the longer you are under the effects of space wind without a suit, the more you'll experience a "decreasing resistance" to space wind. This can lead to death in places where it would be absurd to die normally, such as one tile outside an airlock, one tile outside a breach, or within the breach/airlock itself.

Remie Richards · Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:46 pm

a. Remove it entirely - No.
b. Increase run speed (should be done anyway) - Not happening.
c. Add some sort of reasonable counter measure against it. - The values for how much something can be pushed by wind are easily changes, Cheridan recently lowered them across the board due to cries for a more lethal game. MrPerson recently made pulled objects immune to space wind, meaning you can properly pull things from outside to inside again.
d. MANDATORY: Draw and quarter whoever is responsible for this existing in the first place. - Joke not worth giving a proper response to.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:03 pm #113236

Remie Richards wrote:MrPerson recently made pulled objects immune to space wind, meaning you can properly pull things from outside to inside again.

This was definitely needed. Unfortunately if its an object you can collide with you'll just push it out of your own grip when the wind bumps you backwards into the object. (closed lockers, mining crates, etc)

Maybe have wind resistance higher the more "weight" is added onto you, checking for slowdown from hardsuits or other heavy gear? Or treat it somewhat like wet floors, where walking gives you a much more stable movement at the cost of speed. If you're naked and walking near space tiles you're still likely gonna go down even if the wind doesn't pull you into it.

Also for the example of getting space winded out of engineering. PRACTICE PROPER AIRLOCK USAGE. Theres a reason most airlocks are two-stage.
Open from interior to fill the transfer, shut the door.
Open exterior from transfer to vent, leave and shut the door.
When you return, transfer should be a vacuum anyway and getting blown back shouldn't exist. Continue back inside once the exterior door is shut behind you.

whodaloo · Post by **whodaloo** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:19 pm #113238

oh man you're that guy who got cucked out of greentexting because you got blown out of the shuttle cockpit

that was hilarious

Boogeyman · Post by **Boogeyman** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:28 pm #113244

whodaloo wrote:oh man you're that guy who got cucked out of greentexting because you got blown out of the shuttle cockpit

that was hilarious

Yes, that is one example. A more recent (yet not as severe) example would be me, a nuke op, going to steal the derelict teleporter board. I went to the derelict chapel with syndicate toolbox in hand and climbed on a table to break the window to get to the teleporter. Climbed on up, and the toolbox dropped from my hand. Shot the window with my pistol and broke the grill. Space wind drags the toolbox from the table, into space propelling it west. Considering I and the box would move at the same speed (didn't put my jet pack on) it was impossible to get. Cost us a good four or five minutes while I scrambled to find more tools.

And for those who aren't aware of what he is referring to...

It was a traitor round, I was a traitor engineer with the objective to escape without any loyal crew members. CE accidentally let the singulo loose and another traitor capitalized on this and put a beacon down. Singulo basically kills almost the entire station but a very few. I figure I can actually pull it off, and wait outside the devastated chapel. Another traitor comes by, stun batons me, takes my suit off. I scramble to tell him I'm a syndie while he checks my bag and lets me live. Get my suit back on with around... 40% health. Shuttle comes by 20 seconds later. I and he, break into the shuttle cockpit. I emag it from space, and try to get on the shuttle. I have ten seconds, but space wind refuses to let me on the shuttle. I manage to miss my own emagged shuttle and fail my objective. The other traitor kills the other two people on board while I drift in space.

Akkryls · Post by **Akkryls** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:49 pm #113247

Mandatory foot note that I was dragging a super matter shard through maint and went past a broken window in the dark, the space wind sucked me into the shard and killed me. It then went on to kill about four or five more people.

Fun round.
Space wind kinda sucks major cocks at the moment

Boogeyman · Post by **Boogeyman** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:50 pm #113248

Remie Richards wrote:a. Remove it entirely - No.
b. Increase run speed (should be done anyway) - Not happening.
c. Add some sort of reasonable counter measure against it. - The values for how much something can be pushed by wind are easily changes, Cheridan recently lowered them across the board due to cries for a more lethal game. MrPerson recently made pulled objects immune to space wind, meaning you can properly pull things from outside to inside again.
d. MANDATORY: Draw and quarter whoever is responsible for this existing in the first place. - Joke not worth giving a proper response to.

Considering you ignored or chose not to respond to my actual reasoning for wanting the above done I suppose that the only part of your post I can reply to would be c.

When I say that I want a reasonable counter measure against it, I mean a counter measure my character can take in game to lessen the effects. Changing values is not a viable option because it is an OOC solution to the IC problem. It is not something the player can do, only something the coder or server host can do. I'll admit I'm not familiar with what you're talking about when you reference "cries for more a lethal game" so I'll choose not to comment on that for now. I'm aware that the issue regarding pulling objects was fixed, it's why I didn't bring it up at all in the original post.

TheNightingale · Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:57 pm

The in-game countermeasure is magboots, which can be created in R&D with enough research. Space wind is still overpowered, though, so a code solution to change values is also needed.

Boogeyman · Post by **Boogeyman** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 3:01 pm #113250

TheNightingale wrote:The in-game countermeasure is magboots, which can be created in R&D with enough research. Space wind is still overpowered, though, so a code solution to change values is also needed.

I recall at one point, magboots were in EVA as well as the CE's locker. This was before advanced magboots existed. Their availability now seems rather slim. I really do despise magboots though, I hate anything that decreases movement speed, and having to decrease movement speed TWICE (once for wearing, the second for toggling) is obnoxious. Having recently learned that hyperzine was removed made me furious.

And having looked at the new Research levels, looks like it requires Engineering 5 + gold and silver. It seems like a 50/50 shot that Science even does research, and given the relatively high research/material cost I'd estimate it's a bit lower then that. And then it would require power gaming to the max to even consider asking for them outside of an Engineering role (when they should be standard for all engineering rigs anyway). I suppose it's a solution, but I am just taking your word for it.

EDIT: Well after compiling my own server it seems, that I was wrong about the magboots slowing you down twice, they only slow on activation. They work differently on /vg/. And there are two pairs in EVA. So that makes for 3 pairs total.

TheNightingale · Wed Aug 19, 2015 3:19 pm

There already are magboots in EVA; three pairs, I believe? It'd be good if they were integrated into Engineering RIGs, but they're already the best spaceworthy suits on station (with the built-in jetpack and floodlight helmet).

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 3:23 pm #113254

It can be so annoying to even re-enter the station that this needs to be turned down or all hardsuits need them integrated.

Remie Richards · Wed Aug 19, 2015 3:23 pm

Boogeyman wrote:
Remie Richards wrote:a. Remove it entirely - No.
b. Increase run speed (should be done anyway) - Not happening.
c. Add some sort of reasonable counter measure against it. - The values for how much something can be pushed by wind are easily changes, Cheridan recently lowered them across the board due to cries for a more lethal game. MrPerson recently made pulled objects immune to space wind, meaning you can properly pull things from outside to inside again.
d. MANDATORY: Draw and quarter whoever is responsible for this existing in the first place. - Joke not worth giving a proper response to.
Considering you ignored or chose not to respond to my actual reasoning for wanting the above done I suppose that the only part of your post I can reply to would be c.

When I say that I want a reasonable counter measure against it, I mean a counter measure my character can take in game to lessen the effects. Changing values is not a viable option because it is an OOC solution to the IC problem. It is not something the player can do, only something the coder or server host can do. I'll admit I'm not familiar with what you're talking about when you reference "cries for more a lethal game" so I'll choose not to comment on that for now. I'm aware that the issue regarding pulling objects was fixed, it's why I didn't bring it up at all in the original post.

There has been more and more public outcry to make the game harder, more lethal, more likely to die to non-antagonist sources.
As a side effect of this, resistance to space wind was reduced by quite a bit, the result is what you are complaining about.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 3:34 pm #113256

Spacewind feels like you're dying to a bug/poorly balanced mechanic

Not like a hard game.

Jerking in an out of a window is not more fun for an extra minute while you die

And not being able to ENTER THE FUCKING STATION sure as hell isn't lethality

Boogeyman · Post by **Boogeyman** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 3:38 pm #113262

Right, I'll take your word for it...

I'd go on to argue that just because there is a public outcry for something does not mean it is the right course of action. I'd say something about valuing the carefully deliberated opinions of the elite and knowledgeable (someone like me you see) more then the opinions of the easily manipulated horde. I'd also consider making an argument challenging the assertion that introducing this system would be the best option, similar to what the above poster did. Lastly, I would argue against the idea that the valued goal of a more "dangerous station" was desirable at all!

But again! I'm taking your word for it! So I won't.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 3:45 pm #113265

I think it is pretty ridiculous to claim that bouncing between two tiles while you struggle to walk inside and occasionally dying is fun gameplay. Yes we want more lethality but slowly freezing as you bounce back and forth between two tiles is not fun or interesting in the slightest.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 6:08 pm #113295

More lethality means more lethality from traitor-induced hazards, not inducing pingpong entering the station by invisible forces that kills you if you're even slightly wounded or slowed.

I'm fairly sure people want more lethal weaponry, departmental equipment, and other wielded equipment, NOT from magical spacewind that literally not a single person has sung the praise of since it's introduction. It's especially retarded in conjunct with the buffed vents and scrubbers.

Akkryls · Post by **Akkryls** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 6:23 pm #113302

I would also like to point out the station was more lethal 3+ years ago when we had oldlings and parapenc4 and no defibrillators or other such stuff.
We didn't have retarded space wind back then. It's killing a rather large amount of people who would usually survive with minor injuries.

Actionb · Post by **Actionb** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:53 pm #113337

My biggest beef with the current space wind is its... randomness.

Sometimes you can just casually enter an airlock - and sometimes you keep struggling for 30 seconds, even getting pushed away at a diagonal angle (how the fuck does that work).

Single tile breaches are deathtraps, whereas a max cap bomb crater can be easily moved through.
Add a banana peal to that one tile breach and you have a black hole of death.

Another example:
Shitface McHulk punches out a window in the escape shuttle. As soon as the shuttle launches, EVERY OBJECT on the shuttle begins to move into the breach. They didn't move when the breach was created, they just started moving all together upon launch. And this doesn't happen every time, it feels random. Or buggy.

Whenever I get into a struggle for my life against space wind, I have no idea if I will make it out easily or if I was somehow already doomed by physics pingpong.
There is no consistency.

Also: space wind is now so strong, it even diverts emitter beams.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:58 pm #113339

>diverts emitter beams

GIFs or it didn't happen.

Incomptinence · Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:36 pm

Space wind at present is really pushing the envelope as given in examples here even small amounts of damage can render people in space suits totally incompetent in a vacuum. The threshold for being able to move properly is really fucking fine for anyone in a space suit with people without space suits having a bigger margin before total stupidity kicks in. Given traitor shenanigans aside we have mining a job in part dedicated to getting injured bumping beasts on the asteroid how is this an acceptable game mechanic other than MUH REALIZMS!?

Dangerous station my ass half the examples are it not even killing people, nuisance station more like it.

Post by **lumipharon** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:42 pm #113347

How can ANYONE possibly think space wind is a good idea for a 'more lethal game?'

It is not more lethal. It is more frustrating and shitty, because you're fighting poorly designed game mechanics, not people.
By the same logic we might as well have random BSA that gib people for no reason with no warning or counter throughout the round. It'll be more lethal, right guys?

Walking down a corridor getting pushed backwards NONSTOP because the corridor is slightly overpressurised is the most pants on head retarded thing I have EVER seen in this game.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:01 pm #113348

Raise the push threshold, if it's a thing, and make magboots vastly more common.

Alleviates some symptoms, at least, because I doubt we're getting rid of nonZAS.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:08 pm #113352

Incomptinence wrote:Space wind at present is really pushing the envelop as given in examples here even small amounts of damage can render people in space suits totally incompetent in a vacuum. The threshold for being able to move properly is really fucking fine for anyone in a space suit with people without space suits having a bigger margin before total stupidity kicks in. Given traitor shenanigans aside we have mining a job in part dedicated to getting injured bumping beasts on the asteroid how is this an acceptable game mechanic other than MUH REALIZMS!?

Dangerous station my ass half the examples are it not even killing people, nuisance station more like it.

Also fucking ore crates. The change to pulled objects not being pulled from you due to spacewind was thankful, but as a miner, it didn't fix ore crates. The fucking things get bumped into by you when spacewind pulls you back and then slingshot out the door due to the wind. imo magboots should be built into all hardsuits on a toggle in the object tab like built-in jetpacks.

Miners having built-in jetpacks would also be a nice thing for spess exploration after your job is done but I'm not really counting on it happening.

Incomptinence · Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:29 pm

I half expect anyone who wants to do anything in space bum rushing EVA storage like they have an objective to steal magboots because that is what they need to avoid this stupid mechanic, anyone who fails to do so I refer you to the coders telling you that you need to "get good".

Post by **lumipharon** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:36 pm #113366

Bay style EXPLOSIVE DECOMPRESSION SEND HALP would be 'more lethal'.
Constant pushback due to the slightest pressure difference is just 'more annoying and frustrating'.

rdght91 · Post by **rdght91** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 1:07 am #113393

lumipharon wrote:Bay style EXPLOSIVE DECOMPRESSION SEND HALP would be 'more lethal'.
Constant pushback due to the slightest pressure difference is just 'more annoying and frustrating'.

I thought the explosive decompression thing was pretty cool.

Akkryls · Post by **Akkryls** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 1:49 am #113400

DemonFiren wrote:>diverts emitter beams

GIFs or it didn't happen.

Actually on this note. I got dragged by space wind as a revenant the other day.
Shit's broken yo.

Actionb · Post by **Actionb** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 7:26 am #113475

DemonFiren wrote:>diverts emitter beams

GIFs or it didn't happen.

Fuck, I am bad with computers. And try taking a screenshot of an emitter beam when it's on a specific tile.
To reproduce:
- leave towards singulo containment through the western airlock
- be careless and leave both airlocks open for maximum spesswindyness
- stand diagonally SE to the northwestern emitter (f.ex. on numpad: 5 = emitter, 3 = you)
- turn emitter on
- get hit in the face with emitter beams as long as there's air pushing out of the airlock

If the stars align and lag plays along, you can even see the beam leaving the emitter on a diagonal.
The beam returns to its original path after having taken this slight detour in your general direction and still hits the generator it was aiming for. But still.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:00 pm #113514

Will reproduce with upgraded emitter, hilarity if true.

Reminder to port /vg/'s beams.

Post by **oranges** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 9:21 pm #113657

lmao get good you losers

Absalom · Post by **Absalom** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:04 pm #118725

I have never died to space wind. I HAVE, however, been INCREDIBLY FUCKING INCONVENIENCED by it, every time I have come into contact with it.

It doesn't add lethality, it adds pure frustration.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:07 pm #118726

Yesterday a tator AI attempted a plasmaflood. It was pretty weak and only a little plasma came out, but the positive pressure was enough that it was literally impossible to walk down the hallway in a spacesuit with slight damage and a massive ping pong inconvenience to do it without. Is there any chance for this to be reverted or rebalanced? Everyone seems to hate it and agree it adds nothing to gameplay

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:54 pm #118734

Wyzack wrote:it adds nothing to gameplay

I disagree, space wind is pretty fun. We just need ways to mitigate its effects. We already have magboots, but there are few of those.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:04 pm #118737

Scott wrote:
Wyzack wrote:it adds nothing to gameplay
I disagree, space wind is pretty fun. We just need ways to mitigate its effects. We already have magboots, but there are few of those.

What makes you find space wind "pretty fun"? Serious question.

Not-Dorsidarf · Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:19 pm

Cheimon wrote:
Scott wrote:
Wyzack wrote:it adds nothing to gameplay
I disagree, space wind is pretty fun. We just need ways to mitigate its effects. We already have magboots, but there are few of those.
What makes you find space wind "pretty fun"? Serious question.

I think he means "fun-ny". As a traitor AI. Who hit the panic syphon in a crowded hallway.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:38 pm #118743

Cheimon wrote:
Scott wrote:
Wyzack wrote:it adds nothing to gameplay
I disagree, space wind is pretty fun. We just need ways to mitigate its effects. We already have magboots, but there are few of those.
What makes you find space wind "pretty fun"? Serious question.

The fact that this is the first time the atmos system is relevant outside plasma floods? Fastmos was the best thing that happened to tg.

Incomptinence · Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:29 pm

It pushed people before. It's not like bad atmos settings invented air pressure killing people.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:57 pm #118812

It's unbelievably retarded.
Get an AIR canister.
Empty it in some corridor (try outside medbay) watch as it becomes a horrible, unplayable mess as no one can walk down the corridor or move through doors.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:47 am #118839

Lol we were fighting a Dark Gygax and its air tank ruptured. Holy fucking shit we couldn't get near it for a whole fucking minute

AnonymousNow · Sat Sep 26, 2015 1:40 am

So when's this getting fixed?

Post by **MrStonedOne** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 1:18 am #121499

I have a fix, I'm gonna make space wind not effect people who are moving (as in, still holding down the movement key) unless its strong spacewind.

After I finish my stickybans pr.

Post by **lumipharon** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 1:28 am #121501

What's strong space wind?

ie: If there is a one tile breach are you still going to get stuck in it and die for no particular reason?

Sun Sep 27, 2015 1:34 am

if i had to guess, strong spacewind would be wind that's a level higher than a breach, IE if somebody sabotages atmos and makes all the distro output pumps shoot 100,000 kPa of pressure into the halls, or maybe the sudden increase of pressure when plasma heats up in a fire

firecage · Post by **firecage** » Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:08 am #122143

MrStonedOne wrote:I have a fix, I'm gonna make space wind not effect people who are moving (as in, still holding down the movement key) unless its strong spacewind.

After I finish my stickybans pr.

Honestly that feels a bit snowflakey...

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:39 am #122148

Who cares if its snowflake or not

tuypo1 · Post by **tuypo1** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:50 am #126443

maybe we should put handles you can grab on the walls between exterior airlocks with light wind you can pull yourself in for stronger winds you hold on untill the wind stops

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:56 am #126444

Remeber when a pr got put up to remove shitty space wind?

Remember when it got shut down because "we just can make a fix"?

Remember when no one has bothered to make a fix?

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:07 am #126489

The problem is that space wind is usually imagined as a short strong burst that pushes you in a certain direction and than stops. However since it takes ages for pressure to spread due to the atmos code it is just a looooong annoying pull into on direction.