PR#11689 Security Weapon Overhaul: Auto Rifle Edition

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:27 am #119225

Bottom post of the previous page:

Also Ausops presented these alternative rifle sprites, do you prefer them or the current one?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:56 am #119244

New PR is up, minor bug fix and cool sprites: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/11837

TechnoAlchemist · Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:02 am

Steelpoint wrote:I can implement a two-handed mechanic for the gun that uses the 'heavy_weapon' var, meaning you have to have a empty free hand to fire the gun normally. If not then you have a 30% chance to drop the gun when you fire and your screen shakes like all hell.

Good change.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:46 am #119269

Steelpoint wrote:I can implement a two-handed mechanic for the gun that uses the 'heavy_weapon' var, meaning you have to have a empty free hand to fire the gun normally. If not then you have a 30% chance to drop the gun when you fire and your screen shakes like all hell.

Don't do this. Either make the gun two-handed, or don't. There's no reason to add an RNG mechanic, regardless - that really isn't fun for ANYONE, and just allows someone to run around with a shield and the gun out, hitting QX, and burst-firing for very minor disbenefit given it involves two hotkeys in concession. That said, even if you do so, the only disbenefit officers receive from this is not being able to wield a shield, which are unreliable and, as they cannot be stored and use up an entire hand, are often left abandoned. Contrast to the autorifle that CAN be stored - there's effectively no difference between backpacking/holstering your gun and taking out a taser, or switching hands and taking out a taser in terms of the number of actions performed. It is not a nerf.

Also, do not re-add burst fire. It's fine as-is and borderline acceptable for sec (but I still harshly disagree with it's impementation at it's core). Burst fire makes it twice as powerful, effectively boosting it from a 20 damage/shot gun to a 40 damage/shot, especially in close quarters, which will shit on anyone insanely quickly because firerate is related to the timing of the initial shot, not the second shot, i.e. you have a continual stream of 20 damage bullets hitting you. All it will do is make it twice as easy to down constructs, double esworders, ops, or gangsters/revs in a crowd, or, well, any antagonist, and was the main reason why they were so horrendously OP in the past (though they still are powerful and terrible for a bunch of reaosns I've stated a billion times).

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:37 am #119279

I've been asked to lower the damage of the guns further to either 15 or 10 damage per bullet.

I want to ask what other people's opinions of this proposal is?

Not-Dorsidarf · Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:40 am

Steelpoint wrote:New PR is up, minor bug fix and cool sprites: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/11837

Looks like a donksoft Bulldog to me.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:41 am #119282

I got rid of the indicators.

Also, if I nerfed the damage to 10 per bullet I would reintroduce burst fire.

TechnoAlchemist · Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:11 am

Steelpoint wrote:I've been asked to lower the damage of the guns further to either 15 or 10 damage per bullet.

I want to ask what other people's opinions of this proposal is?

Ten if burst 15 if not

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:30 am #119291

Please remove rifles and never add them again. They - and pistols as well - are a horrible idea on every level.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:03 pm #119325

It makes me sad that the complainers have got this nerfed down so heavily in the name of balance

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:35 pm #119336

Wyzack wrote:It makes me sad that the complainers have got this nerfed down so heavily in the name of balance

Yeah, they're pretty much making these worse than lasers. The whole point was to give security more lethal options, but people are now suggesting things like making the bullets do 10 damage.

The same amount as, y'know, a fire extinguisher. Great job, guys! Why don't we just remove them while we're at it?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:36 pm #119338

Wyzack and Cheimon what do you think the guns should deal, damage wise and if they should or should not have burst fire then?

Also there's the potential for balancing around the 'heavy_weapon' var that forces you to use two hands to fire.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:40 pm #119340

i think 20 damage is fine. It feels pretty weak for a laser, i cannot image having it on a bullet will somehow overturn all semblance of balance and make sec win 100% of the time. or 15 but with burst.

Not-Dorsidarf · Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:13 pm

The reason Steelpoint's considering lowering the damage is because he wants it to be a burst-fire gun again, and people seem to agree that 25 damage on a 3-round burst is somewhat excessive

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:19 pm #119349

25 Damage on a 2 round burst was overpowered.

I only brought up the further damage nerf due to two players in game asking me to propose it on the forums. Well more so demand but I put it here for debate.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:49 pm #119364

I think 20 damage feels about the right level for an armory-only emergency weapon. These aren't standard security sidearms and they shouldn't be treated as such. But below 20 you're just better off getting out a laser gun, making the whole addition of these weapons a bit redundant (shotguns already covered esword/eshield countering, after all).

I don't think it makes sense for a gun to have lower damage bullets when burst firing, like TechnoAlchemist said. I don't know how you'd explain that in terms of how guns work.

I'm going to assume that burst firing is too powerful. The answer is therefore either to remove it entirely or instead to make it somehow unlockable. One of the original suggestions that started this whole process of giving security ballistic weapons was that such things should be available in a code red situation only (thus ensuring that more than one head wanted them out, and that security had some control over more than one area of the station). I think if the guns had 20 damage and burst, then making the shutters come up only in code red would be a reasonable compromise to make them a true emergency weapon. If that's not on the table, then removing burst seems reasonable.

I don't think forcing them to be two-handed is fun or fair. I'm not even sure if we have two handed guns at the moment: even the laser cannon can be safely operated with one limb. Like others have said, it removes the possibility of using a shield with them, but shields are massively useful bits of kit in various emergencies and can mean the difference between life and death. In other words, it means if you choose this ballistic, you're gimping your ability to fight large groups. Two-handed would feel inconsistent with every other ranged weapon and would also be a pretty unnecessary nerf. Try out the 20 damage/no burst situation for a few days and see how people feel then.

Not-Dorsidarf · Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:54 pm

Cheimon wrote:I think 20 damage feels about the right level for an armory-only emergency weapon. These aren't standard security sidearms and they shouldn't be treated as such. But below 20 you're just better off getting out a laser gun, making the whole addition of these weapons a bit redundant (shotguns already covered esword/eshield countering, after all).

I don't think it makes sense for a gun to have lower damage bullets when burst firing, like TechnoAlchemist said. I don't know how you'd explain that in terms of how guns work.

I'm going to assume that burst firing is too powerful. The answer is therefore either to remove it entirely or instead to make it somehow unlockable. One of the original suggestions that started this whole process of giving security ballistic weapons was that such things should be available in a code red situation only (thus ensuring that more than one head wanted them out, and that security had some control over more than one area of the station). I think if the guns had 20 damage and burst, then making the shutters come up only in code red would be a reasonable compromise to make them a true emergency weapon. If that's not on the table, then removing burst seems reasonable.

I don't think forcing them to be two-handed is fun or fair. I'm not even sure if we have two handed guns at the moment: even the laser cannon can be safely operated with one limb. Like others have said, it removes the possibility of using a shield with them, but shields are massively useful bits of kit in various emergencies and can mean the difference between life and death. In other words, it means if you choose this ballistic, you're gimping your ability to fight large groups. Two-handed would feel inconsistent with every other ranged weapon and would also be a pretty unnecessary nerf. Try out the 20 damage/no burst situation for a few days and see how people feel then.

The point was that at 20 damage a shot, that's 60 bullet (least defendable damagetype) damage per 3-shot burst, and if you get hit by the first, you're gonna be hit by the others. Therefore, since some people think the gun does too much damage as-is, Steelpoint is reducing the damage to keep the auto-fire.

Also, creating a whole system for alert-based guns just for one gun instead of rebalancing it's damage is insane, especially with how rarely Red Alert is used, even for panic shuttlecalls.

We already have a system for two-handed guns, but it's quite hacky and needs a full overhaul to work like the fireaxe does.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:57 pm #119367

The gun's never had three round bursts, the trial guns had a two rounds burst which was removed.

Current guns have no burst fire.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:12 pm #119384

I'm going to add two additional weapon variants.

WT-550
Unchanged from current WT-550, only issued to security's armoury.

WTS-550
A silenced variant of the WT-550, is capable of mounting a silencer, sprite is mostly unchanged. Not issued to anyone.

WTS-550-B
A illegal variant of the WTS-550. As well as being silencer capable it also is hacked to fit a makeshift burst fire module. Allowing the user to fire two rounds bursts. Has a red sprite. Is available in RnD under Illegal tech.

TechnoAlchemist · Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:55 pm

Steelpoint wrote:I'm going to add two additional weapon variants.

WT-550
Unchanged from current WT-550, only issued to security's armoury.

WTS-550
A silenced variant of the WT-550, is capable of mounting a silencer, sprite is mostly unchanged. Not issued to anyone.

WTS-550-B
A illegal variant of the WTS-550. As well as being silencer capable it also is hacked to fit a makeshift burst fire module. Allowing the user to fire two rounds bursts. Has a red sprite. Is available in RnD under Illegal tech.

Pretty good ideas, like the implementation of the illegal version in RnD instead of nuke ops.

I think you should make the default rifle be able to have an attached suppressor just don't give it to them and make them go to RnD to pick it up.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:56 pm #119393

I suppose I could just let the default weapon be able to use a silencer. Would be easier.

Of course I would never spawn sec with a silencer at round start, pick that off the corpse of a traitor's uplink.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:43 pm #119406

Cheimon wrote: I think if the guns had 20 damage and burst, then making the shutters come up only in code red would be a reasonable compromise to make them a true emergency weapon. If that's not on the table, then removing burst seems reasonable.

The big problem here is that antags can't steal/space them if they break into the armory in that case, even with a Captain's ID, which isn't really 'fair' if you manage to accomplish a very risky maneuveur and you can't even loot their powerful emergency weaponry. On top of that, with the new armory layout the warden's office isn't even damaged slightly, so the warden can, with no worry, laser you to death through the glass using cover, whereas the armory itself has literally zero cover whilst at the same time having twice as much distance to cover between space and the guns as in the old layout, and with suit slowdown what it is, it's extraordinarily risky to make that distance, especially with standard disablers. This is one of the few reasons why the new layout is a huge step down - not only do you have to manage all of sec in the brig swarming you to get a weapon, but you have to do it without cover or an escape, or without a glass-penetrating weapon so the first responder (the warden) can just use you as a shooting gallery, instead of being able to get in and get out relatively quickly.

Regardless, 20 round burst red-alert only is a bad idea for a huge list of reasons, because it benefits sec solely, and making the button emaggable really only helps traitors. Don't do it. Also, I know you guys LOVE complaining about constructs, but projectilesec is a huge nerf to cult generally speaking, and they have a 26% winrate.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:18 pm #119413

To be fair Amelius before the bomb cap was raised the Warden's office was always untouched by maxcap explosions from outside the armoury, so my armoury change brings the armoury in line with how explosives used to work on the brig before hand.

Also its not as easy to shoot into the room instantly, due to the computers blocking half the view. So its still viable to rush up to the lasers and steal one to suppress the Warden, if the Warden is in the brig.

Also the Warden has never spawned with a Laser weapon, unless he's looted the armoury all he has is a Taser and a personal Auto Rifle.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:45 pm #119435

Steelpoint wrote:Also the Warden has never spawned with a Laser weapon, unless he's looted the armoury all he has is a Taser and a personal Auto Rifle.

Tasers have a disabling mode. Most wardens take a single laser gun for lethal defense, unless they now get a free auto rifle instead (so they're actually 5 autorifles sec gets by default? 6 if the HoS gets one too? That's enough for all of sec, most rounds, to have one).

The computers only block direct fire to the left side of the armory unless you're at the doors to the east, where the warden will go ANYWAY the moment he hears anything going on in the armory. The point stands that, as an invader, you have to rush in with a hardsuit into a MUCH larger area and you have to cover double the distance to before, without any cover while being funneled into a 1-tile-wide area, meaning you can't make a hasty escape or use space as a defense, and nor are you as maneuverable as the sec rushing into the armory because the hardsuit means you can't dodge effectively, while they are unhampered. That is a flat, fairly severe nerf to armory looters, and instead of sec having the advantage in the armory, it's basically suicide now coming from space if there's a warden on-duty.

Also, recall that the viability of a hasty escape is what made looting the armory viable. You could escape into the relative safety of space after taking a gun or two (maybe none) if you didn't have time and every sec member on the station was at the warden's doors (which happened almost every single time, especially since there's a motion sensor that the AI will start hollering the moment it is triggered by non-sec, if it's paying attention). It's impossible to escape in that situation now.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:48 am #119544

Finished my PR bug fixing and what not: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/11837

Major Changes

New sprites!
New RnD Hacked varient of the auto rifle, has a red sprite and a forced burst fire mode. Needs syndi research to lvl 3. Less expensive to produce than the SABR
New projectile bullets! Easier to see.
SABR nerfed to hold 30 bullets.

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 3:30 am #119546

Blue sprite looks nice.
Red sprite looks really ugly.

Seriously though, if your rifles were cargo orderable instead of roundstart turbomurder guns, I would be 100% happy with them.

Danowar · Post by **Danowar** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:13 am #119559

So like, is the detective going to get any compensation since his ballistics gimmick is no longer relevant with all these new guns around?

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:25 am #119596

I feel this shit is stuffed down our throats despite many people objecting to it.

Lumbermancer · Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:53 pm

Does the shutter button inside armory has any access requirements? I swear I let Detective inside so he can arm himself during gang round, and he just tapped the button and took the guns.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:59 pm #119636

The shutter has no access requirments at this moment, this was done mainly to ensure any traitor/antag that broke into the armoury was not impeded via a set of unemagable shutters.

The alternative is to replace the shutters with a set of normal walls and place a central door that has to be opened and closed, but this would make getting the guns out much harder than needed. That or get rid of the shutters.

Lumbermancer · Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:09 pm

Steelpoint wrote:unemagable shutters

But you can emag buttons?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:11 pm #119639

Lumbermancer wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:unemagable shutters
But you can emag buttons?

If you can that's news to me.

Lumbermancer · Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:18 pm

I always thought you can remove access restriction from a button with emag. If you can't, then you can make it do so. Consider it my suggestion. It should enable some other fun stuff too, like locking down bridge or opening xeno containment pen.

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:26 pm #119642

You CAN emag buttons to remove their restrictions. As a plus, it is difficult to notice. I asked for the button to be default no-access so anyone that managed to gain access to the armory proper could take everything, as this was the case before the rifles were added.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 3:52 pm #119656

This is a post to those who are concerned, or angry, about my PR and changes.

I understand your positions, I for one have also been burned many times with bad changes being pushed through. As such I intend the following.

After seven days, a week, has passed from the day my original Auto Rifle PR was merged, meaning next Wednesday give or take, I will attempt to either ask MSO to put up a in game poll, or use a forum poll, to help determine the position the guns are in currently, and if they have had a positive, negative or little impact on the game and if the guns should be kept and balanced or removed.

Again, seven days. This is to ensure that people's thoughts on the matter come not from theory crafting and intial anger but from being able to play, use and witness how the guns impact on the round. Positive or negative.

------------

If after the poll and discussions that we find ourselves in a situation where the guns are, by a clear majority (being I'm not going to revert if the poll is only a few votes either way), and the discussions held have clear merit, I will revert the guns addition.

The gun's and sprites will likely remain in the game in some capacity, even if its just for admin spawning only, but they would no longer be in the armoury.

Thank you, and I hope we bring some good constructive feedback to the table.

Lumbermancer · Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:36 pm

I like the sprites. The sprite when wielding on character could be more pronounced and unique.

Post by **lumipharon** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:55 am #119752

What is the point of the steelrifle room in the armoury if the button has no access?

Might as well jsut go back to the normal one large room armoury design since the room doesn't really do anything except make the armoury super big (seriously, it's fucking huge now with loads of excess space).

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:43 pm #119781

Lumbermancer wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:unemagable shutters
But you can emag buttons?

The point is that most antags won't have an emag or a sec ID at that juncture, but they can't loot part of the armory despite taking ridiculous amount of risk to do so in the first place.

Also, Steelpoint, why have you not put up a vote if we want the changes to stay? You truly are just pushing through with this despite mixed reviews, and aren't polling because you're afraid of a negative result?

EDIT: Never mind, I didn't read your post.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 6:29 pm #119795

Button should be HoS only given the nature of the weapons. Antags have plenty of ways to break in, including emags and C4

TechnoAlchemist · Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:17 pm

Luke Cox wrote:Button should be HoS only given the nature of the weapons. Antags have plenty of ways to break in, including emags and C4

"Antags" emag and c4 are traitor and nuke op only?

Post by **MMMiracles** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:21 pm #119838

TechnoAlchemist wrote:
Luke Cox wrote:Button should be HoS only given the nature of the weapons. Antags have plenty of ways to break in, including emags and C4
"Antags" emag and c4 are traitor and nuke op only?

Did people forget about stuff like thermite, or k'now, actually deconstructing the wall in the way?

TechnoAlchemist · Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:35 pm

MMMiracles wrote:
TechnoAlchemist wrote:
Luke Cox wrote:Button should be HoS only given the nature of the weapons. Antags have plenty of ways to break in, including emags and C4
"Antags" emag and c4 are traitor and nuke op only?
Did people forget about stuff like thermite, or k'now, actually deconstructing the wall in the way?

nonsense.

Post by **lumipharon** » Sun Sep 20, 2015 1:18 am #119855

Because everyone has chem access, or can break into the armoury and stand there for 2 minutes deconning an r-wall manually.

Of course the real solution is jsut shorting the apc then crowbarring.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sun Sep 20, 2015 1:53 am #119860

If an r-wall stops you as an antag, you are a shitty antag. That goes double in a room full of other lethal weapons that can stun and kill everybody who tries to stop you sec in seconds flat. Bring either thermite or C4, grab a taser and laser while you wait for it to count down/burn, and you're set. Every antag should have access to one of those things or the other. Getting into a room of lethal ballistic weapons should take a little more effort. Sames goes for not being able to blow it with a single bomb from the outside.

Post by **lumipharon** » Sun Sep 20, 2015 5:04 am #119896

The point is that it's an extra level of security (that currently does fucking nothing except take up space).

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Sun Sep 20, 2015 5:08 pm #119944

Why IS the armory so huge. You have racks with walking areas between each set. It's WAY too big, and a bomb should at least partially breach the warden's office anyway.

Just throw them all in a locker. Yeah, it's not as cool, but it's more balanced, and you'd no longer have to walk five miles to the weaponry with space suit slowing you to a crawl, like it was before.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sun Sep 20, 2015 5:40 pm #119950

If people are really that peeved with the armory layout, we could always try porting the weapon case things from Hippie.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Sun Sep 20, 2015 6:13 pm #119956

why do the shutters exist if there are no access reqs on them, regardless of intention

they are a total waste of space

whodaloo · Post by **whodaloo** » Sun Sep 20, 2015 6:21 pm #119958

They dampen explosions, I guess? Plus they hide people breaking in from perma.

Also I think they look cool.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:44 am #120033

Its a left over from when they did have access restrictions, also as noted above they look cool.

The map is not a huge issue since I can easily just get rid of the shutters if need be.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:05 am #120040

Also I might lower the rifles to only hold 10 rounds instead of 20, due to complaints from one (maybe two) person/s.