implant breaker + double implant too stronk

Supermichael777 · Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:32 am

Oldman's rant:

Spoiler:

Basically the combination of the ease of snowballing from single officer> sec department>whole station with the difficulty of deconversion is making gang a retarded shit-show about who can meme a sec officer first.

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:34 am #118850

It's really shit.
It's super easy to convert all of sec, then you can face roll even with shit territory control.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:40 am #118851

The reason this is as it stands is that Ikkarus position is that Security should have minimal to no impact on Gang rounds at all, the round should be Gang v Gang.

Sadly in pursuing this he really sidesteppd the entire security department in a shitty way.

E: Our gang mode is inspired by Goon's gang mode. However their security cannot be converted, they're expected to try and maintain the peace but they usually can't win.

Here security is usually a loot pinata for whichever gang can convert security first, once you've got your foot in the door its real easy to convert the rest of security.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:23 am #118857

I don't mind it so much. Either way, I don't want sec to become anywhere close to a focus in this mode. Rather, an easy proposal is to just boost the time it takes to implant very slightly so that a slip stun alone isn't sufficient to implant, basically forcing you to slip -> cuff -> implant. As-is, a slip stun is BARELY enough for an implant, so it wouldn't be a hefty nerf.

This also has another positive aspect - being cuffed as any crew member is always a cause for alarm, ESPECIALLY for a security guard, and will, 99% of the time, result in calls for help and increased alertness, while giving more time to do so. At the same time, it means you won't have to go through all that idiocy of slip -> cuff -> run away -> try to strip helmet -> deal with a long implant time, which I feel is too severe a nerf for the high-speed nature of gang.

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:29 am #118862

Making it slower to implant doesn't really help. They can still stun, cuff and implant - doesn't matter if it takes a little longer after they are cuffed and helpless.

Either make implant breakers a lot more expensive, or remove them - it's really bad gameplay currently.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 8:06 am #118882

lumipharon wrote:Making it slower to implant doesn't really help. They can still stun, cuff and implant - doesn't matter if it takes a little longer after they are cuffed and helpless.

Either make implant breakers a lot more expensive, or remove them - it's really bad gameplay currently.

Except without implants you cannot convert security or other gangsters, meaning both sec and gangs would be shit on every gang round, encouraging the revlike behaviour of 'shoot everyone that moves'/'kill any sec that moves' 10 minutes in, because sec can't be converted, so they'll just gun them down instead. Conversely, sec would know that gangsters would do this, so it would naturally lead to that sort of behaviour. Also, it'd be impossible to convert enemy gangsters, meaning the station would become a bloodbath very very quickly.

As-is, gang is a conversion battle. As such, not many people die sans leaders so long as the gangs are beating sec, and competent. This isn't a bad thing, as it keeps people in the game whilst at the same time leading to a dom. I would like to see some more viability in smaller gangs, however i.e. make weaponry costs scale to your organization size, so there would be more strategy involved (should I buy guns now while not converting as quickly and not converting with implants as quickly as other gangs yet so that I can have cheaper prices, or should I buy the implants now, expand my organization size so that I can get more influence which should compensate for the increased prices of weaponry?'. Obviously, the implant cost would be fixed.

Something like that would even the playing field. A small gang might be small, but they'd be heavily armed. Whereas a large gang would find themselves increasingly dependent on station supplies as they grow. A comeback mechanic, if you will. It also means rapid expansion would not be the be-all-end-all to victory, and spending 100% of your time converting people or even using implants (if you aren't converting, you're losing people!) isn't as necessary, since you could just group up a department, fortify it, and arm everyone.

Regardless, gang is one of the most well-liked gamemodes currently, and soI'd advise not making drastic changes to the gameflow without hefty consideration and a vote, though I trust Ikkarus to handle his gamemode well, given he seems to have had taken the feedback to heart. Implants are necessary for proper gameflow to occur (without them it would devolve into a slower-paced revolution with guns), and if they were any more expensive, it would be TOO expensive to convert enemy gangsters/forced implantees rather than killing them most of the time.

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 8:46 am #118886

What are you talking about? I said nothing about loyalty implants, only implant breakers.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 8:47 am #118887

lumipharon wrote:What are you talking about? I said nothing about loyalty implants, only implant breakers.

By 'implants', I meant the breakers.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:40 am #118891

I usually solve this problem when playing sec by instantly wasting any officer I see without implant. Usually they think everyone is retarded and won't notice their lack of implant.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:22 pm #118971

CPTANT wrote:I usually solve this problem when playing sec by instantly wasting any officer I see without implant. Usually they think everyone is retarded and won't notice their lack of implant.

It used to be alot more visible, and honestly, it really should be visible. It's pretty tough to see if an officer has their implant if they're barrelling down the corridor and you have seconds to make a decision.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:44 pm #119019

CPTANT wrote:I usually solve this problem when playing sec by instantly wasting any officer I see without implant. Usually they think everyone is retarded and won't notice their lack of implant.

"O-h h-i G-g-g-r-e-g, w-h-e-r-e's yo-u-r i-i-impl-a-n-t?"

Every time. This is a problem. Implants shouldn't go through helmets/berets because this is really stupid.

Saintish · Post by **Saintish** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:31 pm #119454

I agree. And it's not a matter of detecting gang sec officers, it's a matter of them having access to tasers and shit.

asskek · Post by **asskek** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:26 pm #123160

why is this not getting any attention

whodaloo · Post by **whodaloo** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:32 pm #123161

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/12038

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:54 pm #123167

this is already merged.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:44 pm #123175

Oh so no more Gang Sec?

THANK FUCKING GOD

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:51 pm #123178

I think it's merged, at least, like 99% sure, so yeah, gang sec can still happen, but it's not as easy as just slipping somebody and injecting them into your gang effortlessly.

Remie Richards · Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:52 pm

Zilenan91 wrote:this is already merged.

Github wrote: Open KorPhaeron wants to merge 4 commits into tgstation:master from KorPhaeron:gang

Keyword, OPEN

AnonymousNow · Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:49 am

If this is the gang thread...

Gang rounds are suffering from severe murderboning, in a conversion roundtype. People say that rev exists to blow off steam, but it doesn't explain peoples' behaviour in this roundtype. How do we encourage co-operation and conversion?

callanrockslol · Tue Oct 06, 2015 5:23 am

AnonymousNow wrote:If this is the gang thread...

Gang rounds are suffering from severe murderboning, in a conversion roundtype. People say that rev exists to blow off steam, but it doesn't explain peoples' behaviour in this roundtype. How do we encourage co-operation and conversion?

Make sec not powergaming round enders and let the gangs have an easier way of telling who they can't convert.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:56 am #123565

Honestly murderboning is the most effective strategy in Rev/Gang once you have a core of competent players.

Incomptinence · Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:02 am

callanrockslol wrote:
Make sec not powergaming round enders and let the gangs have an easier way of telling who they can't convert.

Don't they already have a chameleonic sec hud on leaders for hunting down every last loyalist EZPEEZEE?

AnonymousNow · Mon Oct 12, 2015 11:21 pm

Gang's still suffering from murderboning over conversion which fucks over both the gang with the rogue members and the other people in the round.

This is a Rule 1 enforcement issue, right?

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 11:24 pm #125568

It depends. If they're murderboning without the gang boss telling them to murderbone, consider ahelping it, because it can be argued that that's going against their team by killing everyone, ganger or not.

onleavedontatme · Mon Oct 12, 2015 11:25 pm

Not sure why you're surprised by murder when gangs are armed with uzis and switchblades.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 11:52 pm #125580

If you're not in a position to convert someone as a gangster, it's perfectly reasonable to simply murder them - they're antags after all, and dead people can't fight back.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 11:59 pm #125587

Oh yeah, definitely, and by murderboning I mean actively hunting down people who aren't doing anything, not mowing down the dude(s) sitting outside your base.

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:03 am #125590

Well... Kor was murdering the shit out of everyone as HoS yesterday during a gang mode.
He even murdered some guy that just arrived on station. Honk.

onleavedontatme · Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:38 am

He probably deserved it.

And I saved the station! Minus the crew, anyway.

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:45 am #125613

You didn't even try stop the dominator, you were just roaming the corridors killing people - only Wil tried to stop it.

onleavedontatme · Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:50 am

lumipharon wrote:You didn't even try stop the dominator, you were just roaming the corridors killing people - only Wil tried to stop it.

I was trying to suit up for it when the CMO and janitor started bothering me. Grabbed a jetpack and suit and stuff.

AnonymousNow · Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:52 am

It's less the murder, and more the murder in a conversion gangmode, especially the murder when it just seems to be an attempt to take people out of the round and subvert their own gang.

I've seen an instance today where a gang has lost all their subtlety this way and been eliminated from a three-gang round by the resulting backlash, without the numbers to defend against that backlash. I, personally, was in a round where somebody did this to me (as in, I was the gang leader) on purpose before bouncing.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Tue Oct 13, 2015 3:27 am #125664

> Help! Gangs are converting the station at a decent pace with some, but not much murderboning, and it ends up being gang v.s. gang until one team 'wins' and safely dominates, because there's no rational reason to risk domming when you can only dom twice, and if you don't have solid control you're just marking yourself for death, especially if sec is still in play. Nerf conversion so they can't convert other gangsters/implanted folks as quickly!

> Suddenly people are wondering why more gangsters are murderboning instead of converting when conversion isn't as effective, relies solely on gang leaders (i.e. you can't distribute single-use implant breakers to your minions in the field to any effect), AND they're more expensive than before so they eat up your supply of influence very damn fast, whilst loyalty implants are now more effective than the gang ones, despite Ikkarus trying to avoid that entire situation from the start. Loyalty implants come in boxes with 4 implants apiece, cost one to deconvert (which is all that matters now because regardless if they have an implant or not, gangs have to expend a pen charge on them), AND are relatively cheap in cargo. Then the gangs have to compete with the other gang killing/snatching recruits. OF COURSE IT'S A BLOODBATH

> Here's an idea, let's legislate against murderboning in a gamemode that hands you a bunch of murderboning tools unless explicitly ordered by your boss!

It's now infinitely more effective to convert 10-15 people earlygame pre-mass conversions, have a core competent group of 4-5 folks with the rest spraying or acting in a support role, and just kill the rest with uzis, rather than trying to keep people in the round, due to gank deconversions being frequent on the part of sec/cargo, and the other gangs. I told you this would happen.

Gamemode is turning into a trainwreck. Ikkarus is, as predicted, the only one that can be trusted to actually refine it properly.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Tue Oct 13, 2015 3:32 am #125665

You have no-one but yourself to blame, Amelius, with slip + Gang implanter.

onleavedontatme · Tue Oct 13, 2015 3:39 am

But the implant change isnt even on server silly. At least actually play the change before declaring it a trainwreck.

I also talked to Ikarrus before I even made the PR. I also edited the PR to exactly what Ikarrus suggested when he commented.

I really dont appreciate multiple paragraphs about how I've ruined another coders work, especially when its written as if you've actually played it, before anyone has ever actually touched it.

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:16 am #125673

Also honestly people get way too upset these days about being removed from the round.

Have we forgotten the days of parapen c4? Of welding tank gibbings? Parasting?
People are too spoilt with how HARD it is to remove a person from the game permanently, from upgraded cloners, defibs, drones, posibrains, golems, sentience potions etc etc.

If people aren't getting removed from the roun then things aren't really progressing.

To me, this is ony an issue if people are explicitly murderboning when they are able to convert (revhead axing unimplaned people instead of flashing etc).

AnonymousNow · Tue Oct 13, 2015 1:58 pm

lumipharon wrote: To me, this is ony an issue if people are explicitly murderboning when they are able to convert (revhead axing unimplaned people instead of flashing etc).

This is essentially what is being discussed.

firecage · Post by **firecage** » Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:53 pm #125802

I would be in support to just make roundstart security and the captain not convertable to gangsters, implant breakers or not.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:57 pm #125803

security being hopeless during gang actually kind of makes sense if it was ikarrus' intention to enable gangs quickly swallowing up sec and leaving them alive rather than have sec stomp out or get caught in bitter protracted fights that ends in stalemates. It's almost preferable to have easy sec conversions if you're not the type to get overly attached to whether sec wins or not, if gangs prefer to convert you it's a minute or less out of the fun and then you're back in.

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:00 pm #125839

The issue isn't sec being able to win or not (they usually don't), it's the fact that the first gang to convert sec wins 99% of the time.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:31 pm #125890

I'd say 100% of the time. Especially with auto rifles being in, gangs just snowballed so hard.

I do think that breakers should still cost ten points though, especially since they don't convert any more, removing implants combined with having to use a pen on them is enough of a nerf I think.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Oct 14, 2015 3:39 am #126005

>auto rifles.

But what everyone is saying is true, the gang to convert security is also usually the gang that wins.

Not only do you get most of the security team under you control (who I would wager are going to be slightly more competent at combat than the average crew member) but they have access to a wide array of weapons and tools AND they have a very good defensive location known as the brig that can be used as a base.

Good luck storming the birg to destroy the dominator.

I still think Sec and the Captain should be immune to conversion, thematicly I dislike it, realisticly its bullshit and balance wise it's nearly a 'I win' button for the gang that does it first.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Wed Oct 14, 2015 4:31 am #126025

nah sec needs to be able to be converted. The way it was before was straight up memey, but now it's far far better than what it was before.