Changes To Core Gameplay Elements Should Be Regulated

Tunder · Post by **Tunder** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:49 pm #119379

This is pretty fuckin dumb.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/11786

Alterations of base game mechanics to this extent should have to pass a simple democratic system of checks and balances before making it to merge.

CrimsonVision is a noted unrobust player, and this overcasualization in the form of melee auto-aim should not stand.

Bad or salty players who have not reached any skill cap should not have the ability to make changes of this level without input from the player base at large, and a significant public discussion of the change.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:12 pm #119383

yeah but
TACTICAL
CHAIRS

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:20 pm #119385

How do you define a player who has reach a certain level of combat knowledge and skill?

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:25 pm #119387

You don't. This is just platinum tears from Tunder who jumped all over a PR just to shit on Remie without making a single actual point other than UR NOT AS GOOD AS ME AT SPESS STOOOOOOOOP

AdenAbrafo · Post by **AdenAbrafo** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:46 pm #119389

Aside from the petty, schoolyard bullshit going on on the github page this entire situation is unbelievably dumb.

Steelpoint puts forward a suggestion to change to ballistics for a test, not permanent, after gathering feedback from a variety of sources. He puts the change forward politely, calmly and with an explanation. It gets shit all over and closed in less than three days.

RR is putting forward a PR that makes combat even more unintuitive and literally just turns it into a competition of who has a bigger weapon, no lag and who can click faster. The change is one step away from just turning combat into auto-swinging upon walking into someone. It has been open for three days and is actually being seriously discussed. The only people supporting it are either known to be bad at combat or actually admit to wanting it because they are bad at combat. Any criticism concerning the actual problems clicking on a tile and hitting someone would bring up is basically ignored.

The current system of fighting isn't any good but WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK

edit: Steelpoints rifle shit is still open I guess but you get the point.

Tsaricide · Post by **Tsaricide** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:52 pm #119391

Just because certain coders want to make shit changes to the code doesn't mean this server has to use it.

Xhagi · Post by **Xhagi** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:57 pm #119394

I'm not good at combat at all and even I don't want this. I'd rather git gud than dumb shit down. Such a PR should be voted on by the player base before being even tested or merged, just to make sure it's something they want if it does make a pretty big change and impact on the game, which is what I feel this one would do. Hopefully it doesn't end up getting used.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:04 pm #119396

It's an interesting concept but what's more interesting is the portion of the playerbase that shows up to spout the equivalent of "I play Smash Bros competitively, you casuals. Pick Fox only or go home. No items."

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:08 pm #119398

That's unfair Saegrimr.

This proposed system really makes the stun baton the 'Fox' from Smash Bro's. Since if you have a Stun Baton your going to win melee combat.

There's always been a charm in seeing a weaker player defeat a stronger opponent, not due to luck or mechanics giving the weaker person a strong advantage but simply because he was better skilled than his opponent. Clowns disarming Nuke Ops or a team of Officers being disarmed by a single Assistant.

That will not happen if the Nuke Op's sword automaticly connects with the Clown, or the first Officers baton hits the Assistant square on.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:14 pm #119399

Its not entirely different from how ranged combat is handled, you don't need to actually click the dude to hit him with a laser, just anywhere in the line.

I say its an interesting concept for just how many edge cases are completely ruined by directional melee instead of having to "pixel hunt", i'd say a less aggressive version of this PR would be to click the tile at minimum and not just the direction which is a HUGE difference. Something like that would also bring back the chances of accidentally clicking a wire when fighting in maint, as unrobust people would be more likely to miss the sprite and click the tile in a hurry leading to more shocks. The problem of harmbatons is kind of funny to me, too. Either way i'm not a fan of the PR as it is currently.

Tunder · Post by **Tunder** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:37 pm #119403

This PR is casualization, plain and simple.

It will turn our fun, RNG/skill-based melee combat into boring color by numbers, and will make stun weapons a real problem.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:59 pm #119408

Agreed. The PR is horrible horrible shit. It's literally aim-assist, and who the fuck plays FPSes with aim-assist on unless they're horrible at the game and want to dumb down the skill-cap?

Why is this PR being seriously discussed? It's ludicrous.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:19 pm #119414

More buzzwords than an IGN article.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:59 pm #119416

Where's HG when you need him to shout about separation of the code and server being absolute.

We've come full circle with this discussion, and nothing has changed. I don't even know what I expect anymore.

Tunder · Post by **Tunder** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:04 pm #119418

Scones wrote:Where's HG when you need him to shout about separation of the code and server being absolute.

That works great until the player base is held captive by something as objectable as this.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:09 pm #119419

Tunder wrote:
Scones wrote:Where's HG when you need him to shout about separation of the code and server being absolute.
That works great until the player base is held captive by something as objectable as this.

That's the joke, because it will still be the argument used

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 9:54 pm #119475

AdenAbrafo wrote:Aside from the petty, schoolyard bullshit going on on the github page this entire situation is unbelievably dumb.

Steelpoint puts forward a suggestion to change to ballistics for a test, not permanent, after gathering feedback from a variety of sources. He puts the change forward politely, calmly and with an explanation. It gets shit all over and closed in less than three days.

RR is putting forward a PR that makes combat even more unintuitive and literally just turns it into a competition of who has a bigger weapon, no lag and who can click faster. The change is one step away from just turning combat into auto-swinging upon walking into someone. It has been open for three days and is actually being seriously discussed. The only people supporting it are either known to be bad at combat or actually admit to wanting it because they are bad at combat. Any criticism concerning the actual problems clicking on a tile and hitting someone would bring up is basically ignored.

The current system of fighting isn't any good but WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK

edit: Steelpoints rifle shit is still open I guess but you get the point.

Steel didn't create it for a test, he created it to get merged, which it now has been. The fact we can test pr's without merging now is an unrelated, but useful change.

People, myself included are giving steel so much shit because literally the only 2 reasons he explicitly wants ballistics in the armoury is:
1: He likes ballistics
2: He doesn't like the fact that his energy weapons are hard countered by items designed to hard counter energy weapons, so he'd rather sidestep this balance point by making a counter counter.

Any of this talk of 'more lethal options' has NEVER been adequately explained in terms of 'why can't we just buff the laser gun and/or add new energy weapons?'

Now we've got steelrifles merged (each rifle and its spare mags doing the same damage as SIX lasers without having to recharge), we're also stuck with SABR's that have had their ammo count more then DOUBLED from 20 to 42 rounds per mag, talk of nukeop steelrifles, and any poor cunt with a dual-sword or e-shield can now be safely to to pieces.

Yes steel listens to feedback far better then most coders. Doesn't change the fact that the entire idea behind the PR is ultimately flawed and seriously just plain biased.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:58 am #119516

Steel didn't create it for a test, he created it to get merged

Welcome to every single PR ever made, how is this a bad thing?

Unless a PR is broken, code wise, there is near universal dislike for the PR or it is blatantly going to break or fuck with the game (See readding Stun Gloves or rage PR's) then a given PR will generally be merged.

I should note I went out of my way to get a in game test conducted for my PR, of which 99% of PR's never have any trial (more so one's that change the gameplay), not to mention I closed one of my gun PR's due to said feedback and heavily modified the other one due to, again, feedback.

I feel like that some people just won't accept anything but my closing the PR and reverting the changes because anything else is unacceptable. No actually if I made the weapon utterly ineffective such as making it deal almost no damage (someone said make it deal 5 damage) then it might be acceptable.

--------------------

The situation with energy counters is that its gotten to a very bad place, while this is very much a Nuke Op concern its that security has no real way to combat a nuclear operative aside from a Stun Baton. Flashbangs don't work unless you land it directly underneath them (and good luck doing that consistently), energy weapons are utterly shutdown by shields and swords and even if only one or two Ops are using a shield energy weapons are very poor at dealing with multiple opponents. Ballisitcs are far better in fighting against groups due to its more larger ammo pool, reloadablity and the fact its a ballistic.

Not to mention shields still block bullets for a 50% chance.

-------------------

If I add a new energy weapon it does nothing to actually solve the issue I presented countless times (Nuke Ops, Rev, Cult, Gang) since its just going to be a slightly variant of the laser or egun that really changes nothing at all.

Buffing the laser is all well and good but that again changes little. You might deal two extra damage or have four extra shots but those advantages don't change how ineffective you are against the above presented targets.

We're also not 'stuck' with anything, I actually am going to nerf the SABR down to 30 rounds per magazine.

-------------------

Here's my final point. The moment I brought up the proposal of ballistic firearms for sec as a alternative red alert weapon to lasers and eguns I had a small group of people going out of their way to scream or argue or even get angry (more so in game than on the forums) at me. Not really presenting constructive criticism aside from yelling I'm a fucking idiot and I should never do anything related to the game again.

I had to fight tooth and nail to not only get a trial but to get some constructive feedback, as any good feedback, positive or negative to the addition, was drowned out by cries of anger. When I put up the PR these people instantly descended upon me to tell me how shit of a person I am in every way. Which really makes it harder for me to accept and understand feedback when all I hear ringing in my ears is anger over a change that was simply being proposed initially.

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:13 am #119518

The "issues" you talk about with rev gang and cult is having enough shots to be able to take on swarms of people.
Assuming this sec not being able to beat antags when grossly outnumbered is even an issue, that just boils down to how many shots/total damage you can shit out of your gun before having to go and rearm.

There is functionally no difference in this regard, between a ballistic with X shots due to large mags/extra mags, and a laser with the same number of shots.
The only difference is one has had counters designed for it, and has limitations and drawbacks. The other lets you get 59234768 spare shots in your bag and shoot all the people.

Amazing as it is, compromise isn't always the best solution - regardless of your intentions, the key complaint being 'ballistics are far to fucking powerful' cannot be compromised away.
Buffing lasers IN ADDITION to adding steelrifles is an example of this. Now you're jsut left with OP guns and mildly ok guns that will never be preferred for anything but shooting carp through windows.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:26 am #119540

So we shouldn't be trying to appeal to newer players?

Screemonster · Fri Sep 18, 2015 3:02 am

iamgoofball wrote:So we shouldn't be trying to appeal to newer players?

For sure

This change appears to be an attempt to make the UI less shit so there's less of a disconnect between what you want your man to do and what they actually do. Imagine if I designed a twitch-reflex platformer but coded in even a 5% chance of the game ignoring any given button press.

Even if it's not activated on sibyl/basil there are servers out there that would love a feature like this so they can skip the frustrating pixel-hunting.

Tunder · Post by **Tunder** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:42 am #119552

iamgoofball wrote:So we shouldn't be trying to appeal to newer players?

This isn't appealing to anything but a casualized, least common denominator audience, which would make sense if this was a retail game whose publisher wanted as many copies purchased as possible. But it isn't. You don't have a business model. There is no money to be made. It's not about maximizing player numbers. Ten shitters are in no way superior to five players who delve into the deep mechanics and get good. Casualization does not belong in this game. turning melee into 'whoever swings a stun weapon in the other's general direction first wins' isn't an acceptable option here.

We're a 2d RP spacemens simulator. You aren't going to appeal to new players with cheesy casualized combat. They aren't coming here for that, and it certainly won't make them stay.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:10 am #119558

iamgoofball wrote:So we shouldn't be trying to appeal to newer players?

I can tell you right now that if combat was this dumbed down when I discovered SS13, I wouldn't have gotten into it like I have now. Nine times out of ten "appealing to broader audience" means "stripping away everything that makes your game unique and challenging". SS13 will always appeal to a niche audience.

As far as the PR is concerned, if you can't click on a spite that takes up THE MAJORITY OF THE GODDAMN SQUARE you deserve to get toolboxed to death.

Remie Richards · Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:10 pm

Whining rant from Tunderchief number 3789.5

Anyways, I CLOSED THE PR BECAUSE I GOT REAL FEEDBACK, THAT WASN'T HARD WAS IT?

Tunder · Post by **Tunder** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:51 pm #119661

Remie Richards wrote:Whining rant from Tunderchief number 3789.5

Anyways, I CLOSED THE PR BECAUSE I GOT REAL FEEDBACK, THAT WASN'T HARD WAS IT?

This thread wasn't made explicitly because of your PR.

It was made because of how easy it is to change something as core and essential as melee combat without so much as an in-game poll or mentioning it on the forums.

Nothing is sacred to you guys, and that shouldn't be the case.

Remie Richards · Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:55 pm

Nothing SHOULD be sacred.
If something is broken, it gets fixed or reworked to remain a feature (talking specifically about bugs in that last point)

Tunder · Post by **Tunder** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:03 pm #119664

Remie Richards wrote:Nothing SHOULD be sacred.
If something is broken, it gets fixed or reworked to remain a feature (talking specifically about bugs in that last point)

As long as there is a 'no revert' policy from Coderbus and you coders refuse to bend to public opinion once you've snaked your unpopular changes into merge, core gameplay should not be touched, plain and simple.

If you do decide to touch it anyway, the least you can do is bring it to a public vote well before considering a PR for merging.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 7:12 pm #119676

Remie Richards wrote:Nothing SHOULD be sacred.
If something is broken, it gets fixed or reworked to remain a feature (talking specifically about bugs in that last point)

I agree with that sentiment, but you should think long and hard why a core concept is there before you try to get it changed. I think the main beef the OP has is that SteelPoint proposes a few changes to ballistics and everybody loses their minds, but you propose changing a core mechanic in combat and nobody seems to care.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 7:33 pm #119680

Sorry but pixel hunting isn't core, it's something we are forced to deal with.

Remie Richards · Fri Sep 18, 2015 7:44 pm

Tunder wrote:
Remie Richards wrote:Nothing SHOULD be sacred.
If something is broken, it gets fixed or reworked to remain a feature (talking specifically about bugs in that last point)
As long as there is a 'no revert' policy from Coderbus and you coders refuse to bend to public opinion once you've snaked your unpopular changes into merge, core gameplay should not be touched, plain and simple.

If you do decide to touch it anyway, the least you can do is bring it to a public vote well before considering a PR for merging.

>coders refuse to bend to public opinion
>I closed my PR because I listened to public opinion when it was structured in a manner that wasn't Ad Hominem 101

Hmmm.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:28 pm #119691

It is really funny to me, there has been a massive surge in crying about big bad coders and yet you and steel point are going about these changes in the best way possible

ThanatosRa · Post by **ThanatosRa** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:15 pm #119694

Wyzack wrote:It is really funny to me, there has been a massive surge in crying about big bad coders and yet you and steel point are going about these changes in the best way possible

It's because of a mix of the vocal elements having a specific grudge against them, and trying to touch a sacred cow despite handling it in an intelligent, appropriate and "by-the-rules" way.

onleavedontatme · Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:12 am

When the code is regulated (MY CODE) by the headcoders people get upset and call them tyrants.

When the code is not regulated (maintainers just merge whatever, reverts never happen) people get upset and say there is no regulation/direction.

Both of the above obviously have drawbacks, but I'm not sure there is a system that will satisfy everyone.

Tunder · Post by **Tunder** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:20 am #119719

Remie Richards wrote:
Tunder wrote:
Remie Richards wrote:Nothing SHOULD be sacred.
If something is broken, it gets fixed or reworked to remain a feature (talking specifically about bugs in that last point)
As long as there is a 'no revert' policy from Coderbus and you coders refuse to bend to public opinion once you've snaked your unpopular changes into merge, core gameplay should not be touched, plain and simple.

If you do decide to touch it anyway, the least you can do is bring it to a public vote well before considering a PR for merging.
>coders refuse to bend to public opinion
>I closed my PR because I listened to public opinion when it was structured in a manner that wasn't Ad Hominem 101

Hmmm.

It looks like you closed the PR primarily due to code issues. Using this as a rare example that coders actually listen to feedback came secondly.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:34 am #119722

Dude this is a pretty big stretch, you might be reading into the order on which Remie organized their post a little too much

Tunder · Post by **Tunder** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:39 am #119725

Wyzack wrote:Dude this is a pretty big stretch, you might be reading into the order on which Remie organized their post a little too much

I'm not reading into anything, I stated how things look. If you're gonna tell me that humans don't prioritize items in lists based on their perceived importance, that belongs in a thread devoted to human psychology, but you'd better bring a good source

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:40 am #119726

Tunder.

Seek mental help.

Tunder · Post by **Tunder** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:45 am #119728

iamgoofball wrote:Tunder.

Seek mental help.

>calls for banning community members and players for ad hominem attacks

>polices OOC for ad hominem attacks

>forum behavior is nothing but ad hominem attacks

You make attacks on my character because you cannot refute my points, and emphasize your lack of argument with large characters. It is what you do in most threads you post in.

Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:29 am

At this point you're just trying to stir shit up and I'm not even sure what your goal is.