Changeling rounds are boring as hell

[InsaneHyena]

...if hell was boring, that is.

Please remove changeling rounds. They can drag on for hours, with changelings recalling again and again. Everybody hates pure changeling rounds. Traitorling is fun, yes, but without traitors, changelings are simply unfun.

[Amelius]

They were removed until they were buffed.

I don't understand you people.

> Changeling rounds are boring.
> Okay we'll buff changelings.
> Changelings are OP. Nerf please.
> Complain when lings play more conservatively.

[PKPenguin321]

to be honest i don't think changeling rounds are any more boring than traitor rounds

[Scones]

op wordplay made me laugh

horrifying roundtype with a shit antag that is more or less an unstoppable killing machine, 100% uninteresting to play against healing/adrenal/armor'd things with rezzing and a channel nobody else can get

[onleavedontatme]

I'm not even joking when I say we should just go back to parasting. It was a unique fear, and a unique "oh shit" stumbling over the husked bodies.

Now lings just "steal" dna by walking past people and sometimes go on retarded killing sprees.

[Deitus]

agreed that the new changeling additions are op as fuck, i had four sec and i gunning one down yesterday and whenever we tried cuffing him he'd just melt out and when we tried killing him we fleshmended. that was some outright bullshit.

[Gun Hog]

This is what you get for nerfing the Changeling armor and trying to nerf the fleshmend. I warned you.

[Doritos]

They were removed until they were buffed.

I don't understand you people.

> Changeling rounds are boring.
> Okay we'll buff changelings.

Buffing changelings doesn't suddenly make the round more fun.

[lumipharon]

Buffing changelings doesn't suddenly make the round more fun.

Pretty much this.

Unstoppable turbomurdermachines is no better then shitlings - and even after the 2 nerfs, lings are still far better then they were before.
You can still use fleshmend to spacewalk naked forever, for example.

[PKPenguin321]

Unstoppable turbomurdermachines is no better then shitlings

this is completely subjective and i disagree strongly
having tough antags that can actually do shit without having to worry as much about dying is worlds more entertaining than changelings getting stunned, cuffed, and gibbed five minutes into the round and having pseudo-extended

[bandit]

I'm not even joking when I say we should just go back to parasting. It was a unique fear, and a unique "oh shit" stumbling over the husked bodies.

Now lings just "steal" dna by walking past people and sometimes go on retarded killing sprees.

This is the only real answer. Current ling as it stands is the equivalent of someone finding a hull breach and ten people, none of whom communicate and only a few of whom are engineers, trying to fix it with chairs and lockers and crates and bedsheets and whatever the fuck they can find, until the whole room's crowded and the hole's still there. How many fucking powers do lings have by now? 50?

[AnonymousNow]

I do not miss parasting.

A small prick and a burning sensation was the "Game Over, you're out of the round forever" notification for the longest time, and nowadays people will actively remove people from the round forever because they can.

This is the only game and community I know where a number of people are allowed to primarily focus on stopping other people from playing it, as often as they can get away with doing so.

[Takeguru]

If parasting comes back I'll probably just say fuck it and leave.

It was far worse than a simple parapen+c4, because a traitor pulling that can only do so X amount of times.
Changelings could and would do it to everyone on the server.

[CPTANT]

The problem is that the changeling concept is implemented in the wrong way.

The appeal of the changeling concept is that it is supposed to be an antag that is first weak and relies on stealth and trickery to eat crewmembers and becomes stronger by eating them. Then on a certain point it ate enough people and it becomes a serious threat to the station. Goon has a successfully implementation of this concept.

Now we just have extremely boring lings that have all their powers right from the start. Absorbing people is basically pointless unless you want to get rid of a body or reset your skills.


So what will once and for all solve the changeling antag:

1. Change changeling from a main antag to a side antag that has a chance of spawning in every gamemode.
2. Progression based antag. Absorbing people gives you more and stronger abillities.
3. Rebalance the ling abillities to this new situation. top tier powers should require a significant amount of absorbs but should be POWERFUL.


This way we can finally capitalize on what makes the changeling as a concept appealing. You will be able to become a badass killing machine, but you will have to work for it by absorbing people while you are weak. Changing to a side antag means that rounds do not get bogged down by lings playing stealh or just failing miserably, it also prevents every round from becoming a murderbone party full of lings. But when a ling DOES gain momentum and absorbs the station SHOULD be royally screwed. Not ascended shadowling screwed, but still very very much in trouble (but with change to fight back).

[Steelpoint]

Changeling has always been a controversial game mode, more so than other game modes. We will never get a Changeling that will have more universal appeal, so I think we should just double down and pick a route to take with Changeling.

We should, in my opinion, just copy Goonstation's Changeling and use that. Their Ling is well made and does it role well, as described by Cptant.

That or just gut the whole game mode.

[Incomptinence]

You can say burbling bullshit about skill or not "incentivizing murderbone" but from what I recall goon ling was an absolute terror.

Funny how having an effective sting, a ranged homing stun, being innately space proof and having an actual endgame reward of turning into a monster can do that.

The prohibition on the evolution mechanics makes no sense considering cult (well still constructs) and gang are still rewarded in a similar fashion.

[Amelius]

I agree that a ling redesign in goon's direction would be god-tier. A slowly rising threat that has to engage in risky, vulnerable behaviour to increase in power, eventually culminating into a huge, singular threat to the station far above what a single changeling can accomplish right now. There's both risk and reward to playing well too.

[Saegrimr]

Isn't that last bit basically ascended shadowlings, currently?

[Wyzack]

Are goon's fully juiced lings completely unkillable? I realize it is not the topic of this thread but i think sling would be more exciting if the shadowling was technically not invicible, just super hard to kill to the point of impossibility. So you have that faint hope of being able to pour enough fire into it to drive it off or even kill it, even if it is incredibly slim

[Steelpoint]

The goal of Goon's Changeling is to build up your DNA to the highest level you can.

At any moment a Changeling can transform into its Horror Form. The Horror Form is very powerful with many great advantages and several unique abilities, such as being able to instantly eat and kill a stunned target at will, a single Horror Form Ling can stun a entire room and quickly eat half the people in the room before they can get up.

The down side is that the Horror Form chews through your DNA stockpile like no one's businesses, so unless you spend a long time building up your DNA stock then you can only maintain your Horror Form for a limited time.

The ultimate end game of Goonling is to build up your DNA to a point where you can transform into, and maintain, your Horror Form. Having enough DNA to maintain it and use its abilties and hopefully eat people to maintain your DNA.

If you pop to quickly and go Horror you won't have enough DNA to do anything. If you run out of DNA as a Horror Form you get horribly stunned and forcibly reverted back to a Human form.

Horror Form's can be killed, but its very dangerous and hard to do alone.

[Steelpoint]

Goonling's in Human form tend to be formidable in 1v1 but fail horribly against more than one person.

They have their own form of Parasting, which gives brain damage and knock you unconcious. However its not a instant affect and it won't silence you, meaning if your fast you might be able to scream out if you get stung.

Helmets block absorbing unless you remove them, but a toxic spit can do that.

EDIT: Hell here's their wiki page on their ling, just read that for a overview: http://wiki.ss13.co/Changeling

[Scott]

The problem is that the changeling concept is implemented in the wrong way.

The appeal of the changeling concept is that it is supposed to be an antag that is first weak and relies on stealth and trickery to eat crewmembers and becomes stronger by eating them. Then on a certain point it ate enough people and it becomes a serious threat to the station. Goon has a successfully implementation of this concept.

Now we just have extremely boring lings that have all their powers right from the start. Absorbing people is basically pointless unless you want to get rid of a body or reset your skills.


So what will once and for all solve the changeling antag:

1. Change changeling from a main antag to a side antag that has a chance of spawning in every gamemode.
2. Progression based antag. Absorbing people gives you more and stronger abillities.
3. Rebalance the ling abillities to this new situation. top tier powers should require a significant amount of absorbs but should be POWERFUL.


This way we can finally capitalize on what makes the changeling as a concept appealing. You will be able to become a badass killing machine, but you will have to work for it by absorbing people while you are weak. Changing to a side antag means that rounds do not get bogged down by lings playing stealh or just failing miserably, it also prevents every round from becoming a murderbone party full of lings. But when a ling DOES gain momentum and absorbs the station SHOULD be royally screwed. Not ascended shadowling screwed, but still very very much in trouble (but with change to fight back).

This is pretty much what changeling was before the removal of parasting and evolution system.

[Malkevin]

I'm not even joking when I say we should just go back to parasting. It was a unique fear, and a unique "oh shit" stumbling over the husked bodies.

Now lings just "steal" dna by walking past people and sometimes go on retarded killing sprees.

Parasting wasn't even that OP.
Sure they'd drag you off instantly but absorbing took a very long minute, plenty of time for someone to stumble across you.

The things that made parasting OP were the AI losing maint view when cameras were changed to LoS (this was a good change mind) and that a lot of jobs that did have maint access lost it.

[Takeguru]

>Instant stun and mute that lasted 5 minutes
>Not OP

Pick one.

[Scott]

>Antags are not allowed to win
>Antags must make the round fun

Pick one.

[Zilenan91]

Perhaps the problem with the majority of our gamemodes is that they rely solely on the antagonists to actually make things happen and make them fun, instead of promoting internal conflict to make the round more interesting.

[Takeguru]

I want antags to make the round fun.
An instant stun and mute for 5 minutes isn't fun for anyone involved.

Even if you get saved in the process of the absorb, you're still sitting on the floor for the remainder of the sting.

[Amelius]

Even if you get saved in the process of the absorb, you're still sitting on the floor for the remainder of the sting.

Make the parasting cured by hugs. Solved.

[Zilenan91]

But yeah, no, the re-addition of parastings would kill this game. They were removed for the reason of being the worst designed piece of shit that has ever hung its salty fucking chungus over the pool of slightly murky water that is /tg/ station.

Basically, they're shit, have always been shit, and always will be shit. If anyone seriously thinks that putting them back in the game would do any known form of good then I genuinely have no words.

[CPTANT]

Well if parasting would have the same effect as the sleepy pen currently has it wouldn't actually be so bad.

[Reimoo]

Changeling has been in dire need of a redesign for a long long time. Buffing/nerfing what we have right now really won't solve the problem.

[Malkevin]

>Instant stun and mute that lasted 5 minutes
>Not OP

Pick one.

It was 40 seconds... git gud.

You know you could play smart and hang around in groups, or play it even smarter and get borged.

[Takeguru]

No, you're referring to the neutered parasting.

[Malkevin]

Old old parasting injected the victim with 20 units of zombie powder.
((((20 / [remove_reagent = 0.4] = 50 ticks) + 10 ticks of mute&stun from final reagent tick) = 60 ticks) * [tick_rate = 1.8] = 108 seconds) = still not five minutes bub.

Code: Select all

/client/proc/changeling_paralysis_sting()
	set category = "Changeling"
	set name = "Paralysis sting (30)"
	set desc="Sting target"

	if(!usr.changeling)
		usr << "\red You're not a changeling, something's wrong!"
		return

	var/list/victims = list()
	for(var/mob/living/carbon/C in oview(usr.changeling.sting_range))
		victims += C
	var/mob/T = input(usr, "Who do you wish to sting?") as null | anything in victims

	if(T && T in view(usr.changeling.sting_range))

		if(usr.stat)
			usr << "\red Not when we are incapacitated."
			return

		if(usr.changeling.chem_charges < 30)
			usr << "\red We don't have enough stored chemicals to do that!"
			return

		usr.changeling.chem_charges -= 30
		usr.changeling.sting_range = 1

		usr << "\blue We stealthily sting [T]."

		if(!T.changeling)
			T << "You feel a small prick and a burning sensation."

			if (T.reagents)
				T.reagents.add_reagent("zombiepowder", 20)
		else
			T << "You feel a small prick."

		usr.verbs -= /client/proc/changeling_paralysis_sting

		spawn(5)
			usr.verbs += /client/proc/changeling_paralysis_sting

		return

Code: Select all

		zombiepowder
			name = "Zombie Powder"
			id = "zombiepowder"
			description = "A strong neurotoxin that puts the subject into a death-like state."
			color = "#669900" // rgb: 102, 153, 0

			on_mob_life(var/mob/living/carbon/M as mob)
				if(!M) M = holder.my_atom
				M.status_flags |= FAKEDEATH
				M.adjustOxyLoss(0.5)
				M.adjustToxLoss(0.5)
				M.Weaken(10)
				M.silent = max(M.silent, 10)
				M.tod = worldtime2text()
				..()
				return

			Del()
				if(holder && ismob(holder.my_atom))
					var/mob/M = holder.my_atom
					M.status_flags &= ~FAKEDEATH
				..()

[Incomptinence]

But yeah, no, the re-addition of parastings would kill this game. They were removed for the reason of being the worst designed piece of shit that has ever hung its salty fucking chungus over the pool of slightly murky water that is /tg/ station.

Basically, they're shit, have always been shit, and always will be shit. If anyone seriously thinks that putting them back in the game would do any known form of good then I genuinely have no words.

I think people like you are what kills varied game play.

Antagonists are not duelists they don't have an obligation to be fair 1v1.

[Cobby]

So wait, people are actually upset they have to work together in a game that requires cooperation for the station to survive?

Bring back parasting. Yeah it's BS If you're alone, but then you'd fear being alone when someone shouts "LINGS" over radio. That's the whole point of "Lings should be able to 1v1", you're gonna get assblasted if you're alone and unprepared.

[Wyzack]

> People actually want parasting back

Top lel. I say bring it back just to see how long it takes them to eat their words

[Incomptinence]

I was against parasting removal before it was removed. This newling design stupidity from being a total failure at the start to being boring to what? Being near indestructible if played properly* but still boring?

Oldling wasn't much good either but no golden era nonsense please newling is a disgrace.

*With a mostly cookie cutter build because only a few non stupidly shit abilities shine even with 4x regen.

[Zilenan91]

But yeah, no, the re-addition of parastings would kill this game. They were removed for the reason of being the worst designed piece of shit that has ever hung its salty fucking chungus over the pool of slightly murky water that is /tg/ station.

Basically, they're shit, have always been shit, and always will be shit. If anyone seriously thinks that putting them back in the game would do any known form of good then I genuinely have no words.

I think people like you are what kills varied game play.

Antagonists are not duelists they don't have an obligation to be fair 1v1.

>varied gameplay
>walking down the hallway
>A burning sensation
>dragged into maint
>cuffed
>headset removed
>never have any chance to fight back or do literally anything to stop this

What the fuck are you talking about for real dude. Parastings and stuns in general are the opposite of engaging gameplay.

[Incomptinence]

Well we still have stuns like we have for years so I don't know why you are still here.

Try thinking about other people too, their engaging experience is trying to avoid the well deserved dunking you got. When I die I sometimes like to watch the round and see how everyone is doing.

[lumipharon]

Oldling/parapen days were awful, but in retrospect also pretty hilarious.

Everyone had this fear of human contact bordering on the insane.
Being in a room alone with someone was to be avoided at all costs.
Anyone who tried to get anywhere near you were to be shot, and shot again.

It was shitty, but it also very much embodied the whole 'paranoia/death at anytime' thing SS13 is supposed to be.

Also voice activated nades were fucking hilarious in oldling, since when the parasting wore off, although you can't talk while choked, you CAN whisper.

Also normal stuns are not comparable to parasting. There is no way to see it coming, and it's an utter GGnore.
With stuns, 99% of them are visible before hand, and you can still scream for help/get the AI to bolt everything down, unless they invest in a way to silence you also.

[PKPenguin321]

2. Progression based antag. Absorbing people gives you more and stronger abillities.

while this could fix the problems a lot of people have with changeling, it also has a lot of problems in and of itself
the main one being that our code maintainers will never allow anybody to add that to the game

[Incomptinence]

Given how code maintainers have handled ling they are plainly inept in regards to the subject.

It is best I think to talk about their prohibited directions for ling because they are probably the things that would work.

[lumipharon]

Trying goon ling doesn't sound bad to be honest - our ling has been such a shitfest for so long (changling design is more of a changling then the actual antag), it really couldn't hurt.

Maybe not as a full game mode, but as a side anag (datum antags when), having a pararaping monster could be cool.

[Steelpoint]

What Lumi said, I think trying out Goonling as a first step would be a good way forward. Their interpretation of Changeling is really the better one in my opinion.

Also it would be something new, and we don't have to get stuck arguing like idiots over OLDLING VS NEWLING: PARASTING EDITION.

[Incomptinence]

Their knockout/braindamage sting is close enough to parasting to trigger whining tho. You know that rather have half the crew killed instead of personally losing mentality.

[Steelpoint]

Then just make it zombie powder but without the silence mechanic, so you have barely a few seconds to react. Meaning people who are quick to react could call for help before being knocked out for 40 to 60 seconds.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Aren't goonlings the ones with the 2-minute stub magic missiles that do nothing ever but hide near airlocks, stun, and drag into space?

[Incomptinence]

I think that being an improvement is exactly the point.

[CPTANT]

I wouldn't DIRECTLY copy goons ling, but the concept is way better.