Shadowlings (Gamemode suggestion/replacement)

Remie Richards · Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:39 pm

Bottom post of the previous page:

Stickymayhem wrote:Can we get a separate feedback thread.

Anyway

1. Thralls should be shadow people. They can cover themselves in clothing to hide it at a glance. If this is too harsh, then making their eyes red would be a neat solution that could be covered up.
2. Thralls need nightvision
3. There should be a cap on the number of people who can be converted while the shadowling is in it's human form to prevent straight rev tactics

Said cap would HAVE to be higher than the required amount for the shadowling to ascend.
Otherwise the gamemode literally breaks.

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:48 pm #82013

It'd be cool if mutant races with light mechanics (shadows and potatoes) could [partially] negate their benefits/drawbacks by wearing clothing with a lot of coverage. We DO have flags for coverage. So a shadowling could walk around in light more comfortably so long as itwas in an outfit that covered most/all of its skin from the light and a potato person would heal better if they exposed more flesh.

Might be resource intensive though, also it'd need to be balanced obviously.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:53 pm #82015

Remie Richards wrote:
Stickymayhem wrote:Can we get a separate feedback thread.

Anyway

1. Thralls should be shadow people. They can cover themselves in clothing to hide it at a glance. If this is too harsh, then making their eyes red would be a neat solution that could be covered up.
2. Thralls need nightvision
3. There should be a cap on the number of people who can be converted while the shadowling is in it's human form to prevent straight rev tactics
Said cap would HAVE to be higher than the required amount for the shadowling to ascend.
Otherwise the gamemode literally breaks.

I said in their human form.

So they have to go shadowling form before they convert the entire station.

A cap of two or three thralls would be fine, then the cap gets lifted when they turn into the shadowbeast

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

human form -> Hatched form -> Hiroshima form

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:44 pm #82211

I will introduce a cap on the amount of thralls the shadowlings can have before they hatched.
I may give thralls a unique sprite/race, but night vision is impossible. I have tried everything and there is no way short of forcing them to wear a nodrop item.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:16 pm #82218

I still think the Shadowlings abilities are way too overgeared for an antag that can create an army of undetectable thralls. Why not make thralls some kind of black husk/zombie with night vision? They can attack and heal in darkness but cannot use weapons or change their gear.

At the very least make it possible to detect thralls.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:55 pm #82225

Xhuis wrote:I will introduce a cap on the amount of thralls the shadowlings can have before they hatched.
I may give thralls a unique sprite/race, but night vision is impossible. I have tried everything and there is no way short of forcing them to wear a nodrop item.

There is a bugged nightvision spell. Maybe ask someone to help fix it?

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:23 pm #82233

It's in the statue mob, and last I checked it wasn't bugged.

But yeah intrinsic effects are far preferable to extrinsic stuff you have to wear because while nodrop is the shit, it can't protect against every possible case. Look to golems for a success story on making cumbersome extrinsic effects intrinsic.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:31 pm #82237

I love that thralls are difficult to test for. That said, there needs to be a slow but surefire means to test for them. I was thinking of a sun lamp or something similar, probably kept in botany storage. Thralls held under it will sizzle.

Poorman · Post by **Poorman** » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:40 pm #82239

Thralls need a method of testing or deconversion

Dealing with a Shadowling might be difficult, but if there is no way to actually save a thrall outside of borging, there's going to be a lot of dead people killed off due to paranoia.

Well, dealing with a Shadowling isn't difficult. All you have to do is walk around maint with a flare and you're fucking untouchable.

Really not a well implemented gamemode overall. I'd rather see coders work on improving the current gametypes in rotation instead of adding these half-baked ideas or goon ports.

But then again,

>expecting things from coders

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:52 pm #82242

Poorman wrote:Thralls need a method of testing or deconversion

Dealing with a Shadowling might be difficult, but if there is no way to actually save a thrall outside of borging, there's going to be a lot of dead people killed off due to paranoia.

Well, dealing with a Shadowling isn't difficult. All you have to do is walk around maint with a flare and you're fucking untouchable.

Really not a well implemented gamemode overall. I'd rather see coders work on improving the current gametypes in rotation instead of adding these half-baked ideas or goon ports.

But then again,

>expecting things from coders

I think the Shadowling being relatively weak in direct combat and having to rely on minions is what makes the gamemode unique. If there is a deconversion method, it has to be slow and inconvenient or sec will just go around using it on everyone after the first report of a shadowling. Going off what I said in my last post, perhaps thralls will start to sizzle after a random amount of time and take burn damage. They deconvert when they go into crit from burn damage specifically.

Poorman · Post by **Poorman** » Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:03 am #82292

I just don't see a reason why thralls are specifically not able to be deconverted.

Cultists can be deconverted, revs can be deconverted. It's got the potential to turn the round into sec vs everyone else deathmatch.

Fuck, loyalty implants are completely ignored too, for some reason. Why the fuck would an ancient blood ritual of an unbelievably powerful dark god not beat a loyalty implant, but staring into their eyes for a few minutes will?

It also sort of fucks up the paradigm that sec and the captain can't really be antagonists. They can't be antags, can't be converted due to the loyalty implant. Honestly, that bothers me just because of how it clashes with the general rule of thumb of the game.

Then again, it'd just be another cult or another rev if sec couldn't be converted. Honestly, the only unique thing is the shadowling itself, and while it might seem new and unique for a round type, it's actually really shallow.

Give shadowlings stun immunity and health regeneration while in the dark, and a slight burn damage tick when in light sources. Give them their own reliable tool to disable lights, not relying on thralls to do it for them.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:20 am #82304

Poorman you don't have any idea what you're talking about. Shadowling already has everything you described.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:25 am #82305

Yeah Shadowlings do heal rapidly in the light and quickly take damage from any light source, in fact Shadowlings take double damage from any heat based weapons (Lasers, Wielders or Flashbangs).

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:02 pm #82380

Shadowlings are a glass cannon. They're extremely fragile - three hits from a welder puts them into crit - and to balance that they have very powerful abilities. Enthralling works through implants for fluff reasons and also to keep them alive. In the future, I may add deconversion methods, but it doesn't seem likely.

Also, Poorman, don't get upset that I'm not doing everything you want. I've been pushing out fixes, updates, and features for this gamemode for almost a week now and I'd rather you weren't an ass over it.

Septavius · Post by **Septavius** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:22 am #82429

Shadowlings shouldnt be able to kill themselves with that vortex ability.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:51 am #82432

Septavius wrote:Shadowlings shouldnt be able to kill themselves with that vortex ability.

I think that's the point, once a Shadowling has ascended I can only think of the Vortex and maybe the Singularity that can kill a Shadowling.

Septavius · Post by **Septavius** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:53 am #82433

Pretty sure Nar Sie can turn them into constructs but the chance of that happening is low.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:30 am #82436

I guess Pete-ing an Ascendant out of existence would make sense as well. It is, after all, a massive, deadly overdose of light and fire for anyone within range.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:41 am #82438

Amusingly not even the ERT or Deathsquad could stop a Ascended Shadowling, according to the code they have 10,000 health.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:46 am #82440

If they somehow, SOMEHOW managed to unload their pulse rifles into a 'ling without giving it a chance to heal, it would die.

Assuming squidguns are back to 80 rounds or more.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:51 am #82441

Pulse rifle rounds deal 50 burn damage to a target.

Assuming Ascended Shadowlings still retain the double heat damage trait than one pulse rifle round will deal 100 burn damage. Thus it would take around 100 pulse rifle rounds to kill a Ascended Shadowling.

Its theoretically possible, but the sheer power of the Shadowling would easily kill a Deathsquad well before they land 100 rounds.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:55 am #82444

Wonder how well their abilities work on mechs - if mechs go ling-hunting in the early stages, that ling is fucked, right?

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

Steelpoint wrote:Pulse rifle rounds deal 50 burn damage to a target.

Assuming Ascended Shadowlings still retain the double heat damage trait than one pulse rifle round will deal 100 burn damage. Thus it would take around 100 pulse rifle rounds to kill a Ascended Shadowling.

Its theoretically possible, but the sheer power of the Shadowling would easily kill a Deathsquad well before they land 100 rounds.

Even then, you're screwed. Ascended Shadowlings have infinity damage resist.

Not like,100% or something.

INFINITY

TheNightingale · Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:26 am

Do they process reagents when in ascended form? If there was some way to inject them with {chemistry deathmix}, that might work. Maybe.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:53 am #82470

We are going to need to find a way to make the Ascendants exempt from the Lord British Postulate.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:07 pm #82474

Incoming wrote:It'd be cool if mutant races with light mechanics (shadows and potatoes) could [partially] negate their benefits/drawbacks by wearing clothing with a lot of coverage. We DO have flags for coverage. So a shadowling could walk around in light more comfortably so long as itwas in an outfit that covered most/all of its skin from the light and a potato person would heal better if they exposed more flesh.

Might be resource intensive though, also it'd need to be balanced obviously.

You're probably looking at around half a dozen checks per tick.
Plus fire suit/gas mask/helmet, or biosuits, or space suits, would give full coverage. Full coverage would be too commonly available.

So the benifits couldn't be too high, because of the commonality of coverage, and processing intensity of it, its probably not worth it.

Drynwyn · Post by **Drynwyn** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:49 pm #82508

DemonFiren wrote:We are going to need to find a way to make the Ascendants exempt from the Lord British Postulate.

People will figure it out eventually.

Also, Shadowlings right now are super dependent on cablecuffs. That's not BAD per se from a game balance perspective, but it's kind of thematically dissonant for a shrieking horror of the night to paralyze you with it's horrifying gaze.... and then slap zip-ties on your wrists. Can we maybe give them some sort of spooky shadow cuffs?

Not-Dorsidarf · Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:00 pm

TheNightingale wrote:Do they process reagents when in ascended form? If there was some way to inject them with {chemistry deathmix}, that might work. Maybe.

Ascended shadowlings are simplemobs. That's how the Xenobio Ascension trick worked before it was fixed in the last server update.

omnitricks · Post by **omnitricks** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:42 pm #82562

Its good that the endgame calls a fast shuttle immediately but it feels more like murderboner the crew instead of the crew even having a slim chance of fighting back. Right now I think the ling has to walk into its own thingymabob and kill itself or lord singuloth has to come into the picture. Can there be more ways to kill the shadowling? Like maybe needing xray lasers (since its the highest requirement r&d weapon), ridiulously high powered bombs. Even if the intention is being unable to get them get killed maybe allow some way to stun/slow them down so the crew still has a chance to escape if they are prepared/coordinated enough.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

Shadowling hatched brains should be bio 8, and that should let science make Ghost Traps to slow down the ascendants.

Drynwyn · Post by **Drynwyn** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:19 pm #82571

omnitricks wrote:Its good that the endgame calls a fast shuttle immediately but it feels more like murderboner the crew instead of the crew even having a slim chance of fighting back. Right now I think the ling has to walk into its own thingymabob and kill itself or lord singuloth has to come into the picture. Can there be more ways to kill the shadowling? Like maybe needing xray lasers (since its the highest requirement r&d weapon), ridiulously high powered bombs. Even if the intention is being unable to get them get killed maybe allow some way to stun/slow them down so the crew still has a chance to escape if they are prepared/coordinated enough.

I don't think their should be a way to fight back once shadowling ascends. You had your chance to fight back, and it was "Don't let the shadowlings get 15 thralls".

That said, it'd be nice if shadowling ascendants hand some sort of shadow blast or something, since right now, you just appear, gib someone, hypnotize someone/freeze everyone, disappear, lather rinse repeat. Something to fill the time between implosion cooldowns.

Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:49 am

Yeah, ascended shadowlings are like Nar'Sie, they're not really fight back-able except for singulo.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:16 pm #82633

So whats going on with light sources? I was screwing around on a test server and tried to use Veil + Strip someone loaded up with light sources. After stripping them and dragging them away, i was still being damaged. Turns out the character was emitting light without wearing anything...

http://i.imgur.com/SoyOb7X.png

Also Veil doesnt turn off helmet lights. Including hardsuit helmet lights.

Drynwyn · Post by **Drynwyn** » Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:58 pm #82640

Probably a bug involving the light radiance cap, there was something like this a while back.

Lumbermancer · Post by **Lumbermancer** » Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:54 pm #82652

Yeah. I have played only one game of shadowling so far, but my biggest problem was distinguishing where light was and where it wasn't. What if Ling had different vision, showing light in more distinguishable colour hue?

And the scroll-menu targeting for stun has to go, it's unwieldy as fuck. It was in ling, and it is in shadowling. Need alt+click. But it's an easy fix.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Apr 18, 2015 6:38 pm #82765

Alex Crimson wrote:So whats going on with light sources? I was screwing around on a test server and tried to use Veil + Strip someone loaded up with light sources. After stripping them and dragging them away, i was still being damaged. Turns out the character was emitting light without wearing anything...

http://i.imgur.com/SoyOb7X.png

Also Veil doesnt turn off helmet lights. Including hardsuit helmet lights.

Your branch probably isn't updated. This should be fixed in the latest version.

Lumbermancer · Post by **Lumbermancer** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:14 pm #82993

It isn't. Veil works inconsistently on PDA lights, and it didn't disable the flash light attached to egun. At one point I kept receiving damage from a PDA with disabled flashlight too.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:36 am #83024

Currently a fix up for issues with lights. There's also so many light sources in the game that finding them all is difficult.

Saltycut · Post by **Saltycut** » Tue May 05, 2015 11:28 pm #86007

Lumbermancer wrote:Yeah. I have played only one game of shadowling so far, but my biggest problem was distinguishing where light was and where it wasn't. What if Ling had different vision, showing light in more distinguishable colour hue?

And the scroll-menu targeting for stun has to go, it's unwieldy as fuck. It was in ling, and it is in shadowling. Need alt+click. But it's an easy fix.

I have just played my first round as shadowling and I have the same observations as Lumbermancer.
1. Not being able to distinguish between light and darkness. You can't turn off night vision and there is no light indicator so you have to basicialy memorize which areas still have lights or advance slowly tile by tile and fall back when you start taking damage since you can use veil only every 25 seconds. This heavily promotes late hatch too.
2. Having to use a list-menu when using glare/enthrall. Very inconvenient, menu also includes npc's like spiders etc.

Other than that this game mode seems really interesting. Will try to give more feedback if I get the chance to play it some more.

onleavedontatme · Tue May 05, 2015 11:41 pm

Are there any plans to give them a new name?

Shadowling sounds like slang, and they don't really resemble changelings very much either game mechanic wise or "lore" wise (magic powers, ascending into a god, tsking ovet minds etc). Not a huge deal either way, but I think they've evolved into a completely distinct antagonist

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Wed May 06, 2015 7:12 am #86118

What do we call them, then? Edgeknightmares?

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Wed May 06, 2015 9:33 am #86134

DemonFiren wrote:What do we call them, then? Edgeknightmares?

Night Mares. Ascended shadowlings have hooves.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Wed May 06, 2015 10:56 am #86145

Keep your brony fetish out of my spessmens, thanks

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Wed May 06, 2015 1:31 pm #86163

Nightmare wuld be more fitting for Revenants (spirit that fucks with your head and is a general asspain) as opposed to Shadowling (alien being that fucks with everything and is an eldritch asspain.)

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sun May 10, 2015 5:36 am #87002

Shadowlings were meant to be the slang term used by Nanotrasen because they don't have a better name for them. They lurk in the shadows and seem to be born of them. Shadow Ling.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon May 11, 2015 12:41 am #87174

A new, better name would be nice. Shadowling sounds like the codename for the idea.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

Bionocilumic Hunters

Arete · Post by **Arete** » Mon May 11, 2015 12:09 pm #87322

Shadow Ops, or maybe Shadow Cult Leaders.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Mon May 11, 2015 2:11 pm #87342

Xhuis wrote:Shadowlings were meant to be the slang term used by Nanotrasen because they don't have a better name for them. They lurk in the shadows and seem to be born of them. Shadow Ling.

Ling still doesn't make sense, Shadow Thing could work in a very lazy way.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon May 11, 2015 2:28 pm #87345

Why don't we look for more mythical or latin to give the Shadowling?

Something like 'Shirobozu' or 'Acerbus'.

I don't know, spitball something up.