Labor camp updates

[Xhuis]

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/12560

First off, some screenshots:

The new, revamped Labor Camp.


An updated cache of goods as well as a new one with a wumborian fugu.


Now, onto the finer details.

• The Labor Camp Quarters has been added; this area serves as a living space for prisoners and a place for them to gather equipment and rest between mining trips.
• Safety pickaxes have been replaced with capped pickaxes. These pickaxes mine slower and have only 5 brute damage (punching is generally more effective). You can activate them for a 5% chance of removing the caps after 8 seconds, but only if you don't have much bruising.
• Mining scanners have been added to the equipment racks.
• Safety shovels, being deprecated, have been removed.
• Ore is much more plentiful near the labor camp, and laborers will find much more valuable ore while mining.
• The new standard workers' loadout: laborer's overalls, work boots, and labor backpacks. Labor backpacks (sprites by WalterJe) can only hold three items and slow down the wearer.
  (Sprite: )
• There is a hidden note under one of the beds in the quarters telling the reader to mine south (the location of loot caches and the ore itself).
• There is a new cache of equipment south of the camp itself. It contains a live wumborian fugu and a unique space suit and helmet. The suit and helmet both cause the wearer to take 30% more brute damage and have obvious names and descriptions. The suit slows down the wearer, and the helmet inflicts severe nearsightedness. The wumborian fugu itself is very hard to defeat with nothing but a capped pickaxe. In addition, the room is surrounded by walls, requiring equipment or gibtonite to destroy.
• The small equipment room with a ushanka and soviet uniform now also has a Syndicate toolbox.
• An escape pod has been added to the Labor Camp. Its floors are brig floors (preventing objective completion) but it still allows prisoners with a way to get out of the Labor Camp if nobody picks them up when the shuttle arrives.

[Zilenan91]

I'm liking the changes, and loving how it's now possible to escape from the gulag yourself. Maybe a bit TOO easy to escape, to be honest, since comparing it with perma, if you don't have antag powers, you're shit outta luck and gotta rely on somebody else, but since there will always be a syndicate toolbox and space suit here (even though there IS a robust mob) you can just let yourself out. Perhaps making it so you need to blow up the space suit cage with gibtonite or something since gulag prisoners can now actually obtain gibtonite without help.


The mob in with the space suit is the one that activates rage mode or whatever and gets bigger right?

[Cheimon]

I'm not convinced by the idea of providing prisoners with escape tools.

I mean, why would I knowingly brig someone in an insecure location? That just seems crazy. I know perma isn't perfect, but at least you need help to get out. And yes, if I wanted to I could go and get the suit and tools myself, but doing that seems like a lot of effort: I'm much more likely to just not use it at all. Maybe the Fugu is enough: without having faced one myself, I really don't know.

Capped pickaxes seem like a good change. It makes sense that giving prisoners picks was always going to be dangerous, and officer gear is more than enough to cope with it if they're smart about what they're doing.

Also, still no real incentive to get the mined goods to cargo, or notification for cargo/science to come pick it up.

[Zilenan91]

So Xhuis, if I can ask, how exactly does uncapping the pickaxes work? You activate them in hand to attempt to remove them, and take brute damage if it fails?

[invisty]

IMO the loot spawns should be rng. You dont want players making a bee-line for breakout tools, do you?

[Xhuis]

So Xhuis, if I can ask, how exactly does uncapping the pickaxes work? You activate them in hand to attempt to remove them, and take brute damage if it fails?

Yep. It only has a 5% chance to succeed, and you can't do it with 15 or more brute damage.

Maybe a bit TOO easy to escape, to be honest, since comparing it with perma, if you don't have antag powers, you're shit outta luck and gotta rely on somebody else, but since there will always be a syndicate toolbox and space suit here (even though there IS a robust mob) you can just let yourself out.

Because the labor camp is isolated from the station z-level, getting a space suit and internals still makes it difficult to get to the station unless you get lucky by jumping into space or have a miner let you onto the station. The Fugu is indeed the one that gets bigger and invulnerable, and it's extremely fast when it deflates and retreats - very hard to hit using only melee, and even then it takes around ten or more hits with the capped pickaxe.

I mean, why would I knowingly brig someone in an insecure location? That just seems crazy. I know perma isn't perfect, but at least you need help to get out. And yes, if I wanted to I could go and get the suit and tools myself, but doing that seems like a lot of effort: I'm much more likely to just not use it at all. Maybe the Fugu is enough: without having faced one myself, I really don't know.

I did a few combat trials against the Fugu, and four out of the five times I fought it with the capped pickaxe I ended up having to retreat and heal using a bruise pack or just simply ditch the fight. The only time I succeeded against it was when I uncapped the pickaxe on the first try and managed to catch it when it was idle.

The main reason I wasn't hesitant to add escape tools was because it isn't on the station. You either have to catch a ride on the mining shuttle (which you can't launch to begin with) or jump into space and hope that you're lucky enough to land on the station before your oxygen runs out.

Also, still no real incentive to get the mined goods to cargo, or notification for cargo/science to come pick it up.

This is because the gulag doesn't have ore redemption machines, which are the way that relevant departments are informed about the ores. I may add a teleport pad you can swipe your prisoner ID on and send ores to Cargo with to automatically fulfill point requirements, because at this stage I believe it's all manually done by Security.

IMO the loot spawns should be rng. You dont want players making a bee-line for breakout tools, do you?

This is already the case with artifact rooms. If I made them RNG, the chance of escaping would be low enough that I might as well not even add them, and even if I did you might find three space helmets and no suit or just toolboxes. If I end up doing anything RNG, it'll be making the Breakout event send the gulag shuttle and remove access requirements on the console.

[Zilenan91]

Sec really should use the gulag more tbh

[Xhuis]

There's an easy balance fix for the space suit: make it surrounded by reinforced walls, with maybe a normal wall or two. I recently spattered O2 closets around the place, and I can easily place a wrench in the Quarters' atmospherics room. You can easily snag an emergency welder from one of the oxygen closets, then use the wrench to displace the girder so that you can drag it out of the way.

Thoughts?

[TheNightingale]

No guarantees the closets will have an emergency toolbox, unless you place one there yourself.

[Zilenan91]

You could also just make it so they have to blow it up with gibtonite to get at the space suit

[Xhuis]

You could also just make it so they have to blow it up with gibtonite to get at the space suit

Gibonite blows up walls.

[TrustyGun]

I hope the Warden would be able to see what's going on in the gulag via camera.

[Xhuis]

OP updated with new details.

I hope the Warden would be able to see what's going on in the gulag via camera.

There are no camera consoles on-station with gulag camera access, though I can easily add one.

[newfren]

Have you checked to make sure that pickaxes have the same digspeed on open ground that shovels do? Also check to see if they give the same amount of sand - each use of a shovel on dirt gets you 5 sand quite quickly, which is a good way to fulfill your point quota in the gulag, especially compared to just mining iron ore.

I also don't like slowing down the minespeed of capped pickaxes in general.

I honestly don't think I'd even bother with using one of those backpacks - you only really need a pick/shovel/orebag with you, so if I can put the pick on my back instead I'd rather do that, with the shovel on my belt and the ore bag in my pockets.

[Xhuis]

Have you checked to make sure that pickaxes have the same digspeed on open ground that shovels do? Also check to see if they give the same amount of sand - each use of a shovel on dirt gets you 5 sand quite quickly, which is a good way to fulfill your point quota in the gulag, especially compared to just mining iron ore.

I also don't like slowing down the minespeed of capped pickaxes in general.

I honestly don't think I'd even bother with using one of those backpacks - you only really need a pick/shovel/orebag with you, so if I can put the pick on my back instead I'd rather do that, with the shovel on my belt and the ore bag in my pockets.

Pickaxes have the same dig speed and create the same amount of dirt.
The speed slowdown is mainly for realism, and it's only a single second anyway.
The main issue I saw with inventory space is that you have no space to hold internals outside of your hands. The backpack is made to remedy that.

[Luke Cox]

This may be a tad controversial, but what if we eliminate perma altogether and use this instead?

[Xhuis]

This may be a tad controversial, but what if we eliminate perma altogether and use this instead?

I would have no problem with that.
gestures to massive crowd
Those people, however, would.

[Luke Cox]

This may be a tad controversial, but what if we eliminate perma altogether and use this instead?

I would have no problem with that.
gestures to massive crowd
Those people, however, would.

Yes, the autism is strong with them. Most of the time I just execute/borg them since perma is bland as fuck and always gets breached. This looks far more interesting.

[Xhuis]

This may be a tad controversial, but what if we eliminate perma altogether and use this instead?

I would have no problem with that.
gestures to massive crowd
Those people, however, would.

Yes, the autism is strong with them. Most of the time I just execute/borg them since perma is bland as fuck and always gets breached. This looks far more interesting.

I'd be more than willing to make a change like that - however, Steelpoint most Security players would clamor like my head on a pike like they already do because of shadowlings.

[MMMiracles]

I'm already looking into revamping perma back into a prison satellite so then you could have your choice of rock to send scum to. Just because some people prefer execution over perma like Luke doesn't mean all do.

[Incomptinence]

Can we move the shuttle computer behind one of those points card readers and a door?

I mean people have put a lot of work into gulag but it kinda falls apart when officers get spaced or repeatedly stunned trying to get out of the shuttle.

[confused rock]

I like it, the suit should not be 100% nearsighted if that is what it means, if as in you can see 4 tiles in all directions that seems fair. perma seems far too hard to break out of in comparison though. I would support using this instead of perma entirely. another thing is that the gulag would be used much more if there was a way for prisoners to let themselves out on their own if they get enough mining point things on their id card.

[Deitus]

perma seems far too hard to break out of in comparison though. I would support using this instead of perma entirely. another thing is that the gulag would be used much more if there was a way for prisoners to let themselves out on their own if they get enough mining point things on their id card.

if you have a competent buddy, you can usually do it if you can get your codewords in. even escaping yourself isnt horridly difficult, you just have to know what to do and where to go (im not too good at it myself)

also, i legitimately thought prisoners could ship themselves back to the station when they were done. i would very, VERY much like to see this kind of idea added, perhaps a kind of "pick up" area back on the station where they can get their things and deposit their id/uniform, and a console on the gulag/gulag shuttle that verifies point count and allows one-time access back to the station.

we would probably have to move no2 storage though so people dont just break the window to it, though tbh i dont know why we have that there in the first place. i have never seen it used outside of brig flooding.

Can we move the shuttle computer behind one of those points card readers and a door?

same as above

I'm already looking into revamping perma back into a prison satellite so then you could have your choice of rock to send scum to. Just because some people prefer execution over perma like Luke doesn't mean all do.

i dont /usually/ execute, though i will if there is high risk to them (gang leaders, for example). regular tators usually just go to perma for me. one of the main things about the gulag AND this new perma, if added, would be how to deal with multiple transfers: for example, an officer coming to drop off a 2nd person on the gulag could easily be disarmed by the first, allowing for an easy beatdown.

to remedy this i suggest adding a "staging area" with double doors like with the entrance to sec on boxstation, press a button in a secure room to open/close two sets of doors. this would make it much easier/safer to move prisoners imo

This may be a tad controversial, but what if we eliminate perma altogether and use this instead?

same worries as above

I hope the Warden would be able to see what's going on in the gulag via camera.

There are no camera consoles on-station with gulag camera access, though I can easily add one.

yes please, this has always bugged me.

Also, still no real incentive to get the mined goods to cargo, or notification for cargo/science to come pick it up.

This is because the gulag doesn't have ore redemption machines, which are the way that relevant departments are informed about the ores. I may add a teleport pad you can swipe your prisoner ID on and send ores to Cargo with to automatically fulfill point requirements, because at this stage I believe it's all manually done by Security.

THIS

ALL OF THIS

i think AT MINIMUM cargo/science/whatever should get notification of new minerals/easy access to said minerals (read: not having to be let in by sec). teleportation would be best, though there is the low chance that someone could abuse this for bombs or other shit. maybe make it coded so it can only tp minerals, if that's possible. further, where would they teleport to? directly to the ore redemption machine or just a predetermined place in cargo?

this would be something to bring up in the discussion about bluespace cargo deliveries if that's still a thing being considered.

if not the teleporter i would say make it so the prisoners have to bring the minerals back to the station themselves, maybe like a console that verifies mineral count/point count before activating the shuttle to go back, though this brings up previously mentioned concerns from above about gulag shuttle

overall on these changes im pretty good on, though i cant shake a kind of uneasy feeling about leaving an escape method, however dangerous in execution it may be. but it's pretty small i suppose

[Jacough]

I mean, why would I knowingly brig someone in an insecure location?

If they manage to get the cap off their pick axe without hurting themselves too much, get some gibtonite, get the syndicate toolbox, kill an extremely robust monster and then somehow manage to get back to the station with a space suit that makes them practically blind and without bleeding out or running out of O2 along the way then I'd say they've pretty much earned their freedom. Hell, even then they're probably going to be seriously wounded and won't be able to put up much of a fight unless they manage to avoid all the valid hunters and get patched up.

And hey if you've got to keep someone REALLY secure you've always got your trusty harmbaton and that bathroom in perma where there's conveniently no cameras.

[PKPenguin321]

if you don't want them to escape, take away all their internals

[newfren]

You can store your oxygen tank in your pockets Xhuis.

Also it is totally possible for prisoners to get themselves back to the station from the gulag - they can call the gulag shuttle to the gulag themselves, which has a stacking machine inside. If you put your processed metals below this the machine will suck it up, and you can claim your points from it I believe with your ID either on the machine itself or on the console on the wall. When you use an ID that's been through all of its points on the wall console there'll be an option to send the gulag shuttle back to the station with you inside.

Honestly it's like a billion times easier to just serve your sentence at the gulag, considering most security players seem to assume that 200 points is some onerous task when realistically it's about 2 minutes' work of digging sand for glass.

All in all I guess I don't see the point of mot of these changes. I guess the escape pod is cool?

[Luke Cox]

All in all I guess I don't see the point of mot of these changes. I guess the escape pod is cool?

From what I gather, the idea is that this gulag is more viable for long term imprisonment.

[Ricotez]

I remember back when there wasn't really a permawing as such. Perma was just a slightly bigger cell opposite to the other cells, without any grille windows, only a door with windows in it. Locking 1 person in there was still feasible, but 2 and up was just asking for trouble. That's why we got the wing.

But now that we have the labour camp, I am also starting to wonder if the permawing is still necessary. The issue is having a non-harmful means to remove someone permanently from the round. Cyborgs and anyone without permission from the Captain or HoS need one, or they can't do anything with prisoners who are beyond redemption.

From an OOC perspective, non-harmfully removing someone permanently from the round is almost worse than harmfully, because they can no longer participate but they can't observe. Maybe we should consider this: either Security give someone the chance to redeem themselves at the labour camp (even if they have to work for a long time to accumulate all the points), or they execute them.

[newfren]

Using the gulag as long term imprisonment in a round then 100% forbids it from being used for temporary imprisonment, as anyone with an ID that's been fulfilled can then let everyone else out of the gulag.

I mean I realize it's underused for that sort of thing in most rounds anyway but adding a purpose to it that is entirely contradictory to an existing purpose seems a bit naff.

[CPTANT]

Using the gulag as long term imprisonment in a round then 100% forbids it from being used for temporary imprisonment, as anyone with an ID that's been fulfilled can then let everyone else out of the gulag.

I mean I realize it's underused for that sort of thing in most rounds anyway but adding a purpose to it that is entirely contradictory to an existing purpose seems a bit naff.

This, there should really be a system that only allows 1 person to exit on a full card.

Permanent prisoners murdering inmates to get their fulfilled ID on the other hand is something I can only applaud.

[Incomptinence]

Maybe a cloner style one person at a time machine that reads the points ID they are wearing then shoots them through a disposals chute?

[Luke Cox]

Gulag as a temporary sentence is kind of stupid. It's a pain in the ass to manage, and even if you revamp it I doubt it'll get used for that. I say we gut perma entirely and replace it with the gulag for permanent imprisonment. Forcing perma prisoners to mine makes more sense both lore and gameplay wise. A corporation would rather force prisoners to generate revenue than spend money housing them, and people will actually mine in the perma gulag if there's some small chance of escape, even if they just end up at derelict. It's more engaging for all parties.

[CPTANT]

The security office in the gulag is still completely useless, if you go there some inmate will just wall you in with the iron plates they mine. It needs a secure route to the shuttle.

[confused rock]

even escaping yourself isnt horridly difficult, you just have to know what to do and where to go

How

[confused rock]

I mean, why would I knowingly brig someone in an insecure location?

If they manage to get the cap off their pick axe without hurting themselves too much, get some gibtonite, get the syndicate toolbox, kill an extremely robust monster and then somehow manage to get back to the station with a space suit that makes them practically blind and without bleeding out or running out of O2 along the way then I'd say they've pretty much earned their freedom. Hell, even then they're probably going to be seriously wounded and won't be able to put up much of a fight unless they manage to avoid all the valid hunters and get patched up.

And hey if you've got to keep someone REALLY secure you've always got your trusty harmbaton and that bathroom in perma where there's conveniently no cameras.

dont need to take off the cap though becasue syndie toolboxes are robust, and gibtonite can kill the thing