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Map Rotation

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Oldman Robustin
 
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Map Rotation

Postby Oldman Robustin » Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:18 pm #131449

I whined about this when it was being added and my warnings went unheeded.

I waited so that the "give the crew time to learn the maps" argument would prove itself false.

Now there must be a reckoning! Seriously though, map rotation has done nothing to enhance my round quality, while simultaneously turning almost every non-box round into a giant meme. Nobody takes their roles seriously, 50% of the crew is assistants so they can hunt maint for goodies, nobody plays sec because playing sec on unfamiliar maps is a nightmare and with everyone just screwing around your job is not going to be enjoyable. Certain gametypes are just autowin for antags because the few security/validhunters can't navigate the map effectively to respond to calls for help.

The list goes on and on, map rotation has ruined many rounds while there isn't a single round I can say was enhanced by having all the rooms rearranged in some bizarre layout.
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DemonFiren
 
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Re: Map Rotation

Postby DemonFiren » Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:34 pm #131452

Eh, it's all right on Basil.
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Re: Map Rotation

Postby CPTANT » Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:27 pm #131462

And I think it is probably the best addition to the game made in the last year.

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Re: Map Rotation

Postby TheNightingale » Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:47 pm #131464

There are always people who shout ";SUICIDE HOPLINE" and explode when they don't roll antag/get Boxstation, but they're not the sort of people we're trying to cater to here. Sybil usually ends up on Box anyway, so if anything, there's not enough variety.

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invisty
 
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Re: Map Rotation

Postby invisty » Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:07 pm #131466

I like map rotation, but I think some of the maps really do have poor design which makes them thoroughly unusable for a lot of roles, particularly those with minimal access (Clown and Mime)
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Re: Map Rotation

Postby confused rock » Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:37 pm #131512

I think the problem is most maps are crap. dream has the only thing going for it that it works, disk is extremely broken, birdboat is broken and ridiculous, asteroid is also somewhat broken, and mini is outdated. the only good maps are box and metastation.
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Re: Map Rotation

Postby CPTANT » Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:43 pm #131513

The unloved rock wrote:I think the problem is most maps are crap. dream has the only thing going for it that it works, disk is extremely broken, birdboat is broken and ridiculous, asteroid is also somewhat broken, and mini is outdated. the only good maps are box and metastation.


Dream is fine, I don't really know what the hate is focussed on.
Asteroid needs some fixes but the concept and layout aren't bad.
disk is horrible.

There is a severe lack of a good low pop map.

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Re: Map Rotation

Postby Incomptinence » Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:07 am #131562

I love map rotation. Having a broken glitchy station feels full on NT thematic. Having gang pull out a win because the outside of AI sat on meta is labelled "hallway" by default was pretty hilarious.

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Re: Map Rotation

Postby Duncdar » Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:46 am #131567

Oldman Robustin wrote:Nobody takes their roles seriously, 50% of the crew is assistants so they can hunt maint for goodies

This isn't a problem with map rotation.
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Grazyn
 
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Re: Map Rotation

Postby Grazyn » Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:38 am #131585

Yeah every time a novelty map is selected, our top PRO players like forceful or amelius take it upon themselves to shit up OOC and deadchat and push the roundstart suicide meme, or very rarely pull a gimmick to end the round ASAP. I admit, some maps like birdboat are very memey and feel incomplete, but I don't know if the best course of action is shouting "OH NO IT'S THIS MAP, PEOPLE HATE THIS MAP, NOW LOOK AS EVERYONE SUICIDE AND LOGS OFF" in OOC every single time. Maps can't be improved if nobody tests them and the only way to grow familiar with a map is, well, to play it. It's not like every round is birdboat or discstation anyway.

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Re: Map Rotation

Postby Bluespace » Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:55 am #131587

Maybe if people wouldn't just suicide and actually play when it's other maps, it'd be more enjoyable.
As it is, quite a few people don't do their jobs when the map rotates.
Who can blame them? Most map rotations are buggy and short.
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Re: Map Rotation

Postby firecage » Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:31 am #131605

Sounds more like this is a problem with CERTAIN players instead of a problem with map rotation or the maps. People who suicide roundstart, spam OOC, or spam deadchat when its a map they won't want should probably be antagbanned or banned for a few rounds.
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Re: Map Rotation

Postby Takeguru » Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:38 pm #131629

How about no

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Re: Map Rotation

Postby metacide » Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:50 pm #131632

I thoroughly enjoy the novelty of Dream and the way it changes up the way people play.

The variety has even made Box feel less stale, I think it's been one of the best changes in ages.
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Oldman Robustin
 
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Re: Map Rotation

Postby Oldman Robustin » Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:31 pm #131639

It hasn't made Box feel "less stale", it simply reminded people how shitty the alternatives are.

Almost anyone who "Loves" the new maps or map rotation in general tend be people who never pick Head/Sec roles. If you are looking for a "serious" round, you're rarely going to find it outside of Box. Most of the time if you do end up playing a role with real responsibilities, expect to be the only one patrolling while a cult/rev/gang/shadowmeme snowball in a section of maint you didn't even know existed.

People can't even articulate what these new maps add. Asteroid station gave us the long-held dream of having the singularity be even MORE lethal, Dreamstation gave us the dream of a station that's more maint. than station, Metastation delivered the dream of a station with more rooms than crewmembers, and Birdboat gave us the dream of living life in the shoes of a map designer with serious mental disabilities.

Every time we got back to Box its 95% positive comments while a switch to Dream/Birdbutt/Assroid often precipitates a large log-off or suicide wave (I haven't shouted for suicides in weeks you memesters) where the previous round had unlocked all the game modes and the new one only has enough pop for Extended+traitor+traitorling.
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Re: Map Rotation

Postby firecage » Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:35 pm #131641

Better idea. Remove box from the rotation for a few weeks so people can get used to not playing an old and stale map.
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Re: Map Rotation

Postby JackHunt » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:31 pm #131667

I think it's easily the best addition to the codebase in a long time. Far more than any individual feature, new maps really have helped expose already existing features to the public in new and exciting ways. tgstation as a codebase is so big and not all of it can be found in box. It's not super balanced yet but all the maps are getting better as they get updated so the situation is improving with time. Disc was unplayable on release and now, at the very least, you can go a round without something breaking hilariously. Even if you find a bug or issue, that's what feedback threads are for.

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Re: Map Rotation

Postby Amelius » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:46 pm #131669

The problem with map rotation is that most of the maps are shit and there's no quality control to get into the map rotation, or maintain your position in the rotation aside from 'hey, I have a map'.

The only two maps that really deserve their spots in the rotation are Meta (best at ultrahighpop [70+]) and Box (good from 30-70~), and it should stick to those two aside from meme events like highpop ministation. The other stations are just flat out poorly designed or massively flawed. For instance, singuloth in the middle of AsteroidStation, making singuloth a guaranteed round-ender, killing almost everyone and anyone on the station.

Oldman, please throw a poll out. I highly doubt people actually enjoy Dream, Asteroid, or Birdboat in the slightest.

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Re: Map Rotation

Postby Steelpoint » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:52 pm #131670

Get MSO to put up a in game poll on the whole map rotation matter.

Not that it actually matters but it might help.
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Re: Map Rotation

Postby Zilenan91 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:56 pm #131673

Amelius wrote:The problem with map rotation is that most of the maps are shit and there's no quality control to get into the map rotation, or maintain your position in the rotation aside from 'hey, I have a map'.

The only two maps that really deserve their spots in the rotation are Meta (best at ultrahighpop [70+]) and Box (good from 30-70~), and it should stick to those two aside from meme events like highpop ministation. The other stations are just flat out poorly designed or massively flawed. For instance, singuloth in the middle of AsteroidStation, making singuloth a guaranteed round-ender, killing almost everyone and anyone on the station.

Oldman, please throw a poll out. I highly doubt people actually enjoy Dream, Asteroid, or Birdboat in the slightest.



Singulo being in the middle of asteroid is a feature not a detractor.
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Re: Map Rotation

Postby Amelius » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:57 pm #131674

Zilenan91 wrote:Poor design is a feature not a detractor.

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Re: Map Rotation

Postby MMMiracles » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:05 pm #131678

I for one am an ass man and full heartedly approve of middle singulo and its on-station mine. Actually makes wormhole event a legitimate threat (oh god goliaths in medbay).
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Re: Map Rotation

Postby DemonFiren » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:13 pm #131682

Actually, I rather enjoyed that.

Ass also has the best bar out there.
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Re: Map Rotation

Postby ChangelingRain » Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:09 pm #131712

It should be noted that there are basically no standards on maps. I mean, we've got ministation and it's existed for a year-ish.
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Re: Map Rotation

Postby CPTANT » Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:24 am #131858

Amelius wrote:
Zilenan91 wrote:Poor design is a feature not a detractor.


Mid station singulo is fucking great. Not every map has to be the same.

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Re: Map Rotation

Postby firecage » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:04 pm #131867

Actually, the singularity being in the middle is much better. it is gauranteed to fuck up the station and not to just have a chance to do minor damage and go away.
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Re: Map Rotation

Postby Steelpoint » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:30 pm #131872

I personally like the singularity being in the middle of the station, it makes it not only very important to keep secure but a guaranteed way to ruin the station.

It's kinda what I expect out of a SS13 station, and if I was not certain a PR would be rejected I would move Box's engineering department to the centre of the station and restructure the north part of the station into a duel security/command deck.
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Re: Map Rotation

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:02 pm #131885

Steelpoint wrote:I personally like the singularity being in the middle of the station, it makes it not only very important to keep secure but a guaranteed way to ruin the station.

It's kinda what I expect out of a SS13 station, and if I was not certain a PR would be rejected I would move Box's engineering department to the centre of the station and restructure the north part of the station into a duel security/command deck.


I would fight to the death to see what that would look like.
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Oldman Robustin
 
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Re: Map Rotation

Postby Oldman Robustin » Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:42 pm #131900

>People defending a 100% guaranteed singularity lagfest/shitshow.

It creates a vicious cycle you know, just like roundstart 10TC syndiebombs did for doubleagent... when people have a 100% guaranteed way to end the round and kill a bunch of people, they do it. I know its one of the first things ill consider if nobody responds on Syndiechannel during a traitor round on Ass-Station.

Other maps like Bird and Dream are jokes too, I don't think I've seen either successfully stand up to a conversion-based antagonist and sec remains a joke on most of these alternative maps. I was split between side-splitting laughter and deep dismay when I killed the HOS on camera on Asteroid behind botany and the AI screamed its lungs out for almost 10 minutes while keeping me bolted in and nobody showed up to stop me, eventually I realized I had a welder in my box and busted out while people were still asking where botany was.

I'll make this request simpler and more agreeable:

REMOVE BIRDBOAT. Nobody can defend the shittiness of that map, if you enjoy birdboat please select HoS and find your office... first person to find HoS office can keep Birdboat in rotation.

Edit: The past few hours have been nothing but asteroid->birdboat->meta, does this thing even account for player preferences? There's no way Birdboat is the top choice for more than a tiny minority of autists, yet I've played it just as much as Box in the last 24 hours.
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Re: Map Rotation

Postby Amelius » Thu Nov 05, 2015 6:55 pm #131923

Oldman Robustin wrote:Edit: The past few hours have been nothing but asteroid->birdboat->meta, does this thing even account for player preferences? There's no way Birdboat is the top choice for more than a tiny minority of autists, yet I've played it just as much as Box in the last 24 hours.


More like the past while. It's been box -> box -> ass/birdboat/dream -> ass/birdboat/dream -> meta -> ??? for the past few days. Birdboat and ass are particularly popular, and I have no idea how the fuck we end up on birdboat in the first place because it's such an objectively terrible map in every facet, and I haven't heard anyone really speak favourably about it. Yet, we still keep playing it, often in fact.

The only way this rotation would make sense is if default votes counted for 0.

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Re: Map Rotation

Postby MMMiracles » Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:42 pm #131932

Birdboat is quite literally the essence of nonsensical, metal death trap masquerading as a space station. The main reason I've heard about people liking it is because of the fact its deadly as shit even by itself. I mean for fucks sake the disposals end-result shoots you straight into an emagged crusher. Its hilarious.
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Re: Map Rotation

Postby NikNakFlak » Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:26 pm #131943

The unloved rock wrote:I think the problem is most maps are crap. dream has the only thing going for it that it works, disk is extremely broken, birdboat is broken and ridiculous, asteroid is also somewhat broken, and mini is outdated. the only good maps are box and metastation.


Couldn't agree with this more.
Box and meta are the most tested and functional maps. All the others just have problems and shitty designs. Dream is probably the best out of the new ones with asteroid as a second but disc is awful with it's huge hallways and horribly layed out departments and the map feels like a ghost town because you never seen anyone. Birdboat is also just a nightmare as a map, I understand people like it because it's dangerous but it gets old fast. Maps just need to be made better.
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Re: Map Rotation

Postby Incomptinence » Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:58 pm #131950

I don't get why part of the shutters in bird boat block off the main halls. Or where these are even activated from.

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Re: Map Rotation

Postby onleavedontatme » Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:35 pm #131957

>literal deathtraps in maint
>spiders
>tiny twisting hallways

How can people not love birdboat?

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Re: Map Rotation

Postby confused rock » Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:48 pm #131961

firecage wrote:Better idea. Remove box from the rotation for a few weeks so people can get used to not playing an old and stale map.

This is best idea
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Re: Map Rotation

Postby confused rock » Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:55 pm #131962

Kor wrote:>literal deathtraps in maint
>spiders
>tiny twisting hallways

How can people not love birdboat?

hos cant even get a flashbang.
and pete and araneus and all the cool pets are replaced by pun pun, pon pon, pin pin, atmos monkey, poop map, and autism.
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Re: Map Rotation

Postby Oldman Robustin » Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:06 am #131997

We did "no box" for like a month a couple years ago, the rotation then included meta and assroid, guess how many people were clamoring to keep rotation after that?

Box is king.
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Re: Map Rotation

Postby newfren » Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:37 am #132000

I like lowpop birdboat because the map gives you a lot of things to shit around with while the traitors emag into the vault, grab the CE's blueprints, then hold their dick in an escape pod.

For anything above ~30 players it's fairly broken and I'd really only want to play on box, meta, or dream.

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Re: Map Rotation

Postby Luke Cox » Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:42 am #132008

Everybody wanted map rotation and the vast majority of people are fine with it. Stop trying to act like everybody hates it. No amount of complaining from you will make this true. Get rid of highpop ministation and birdboatstation, and everything is fine.
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Re: Map Rotation

Postby Grazyn » Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:37 am #132083

I keep my pref on birdboat just because I enjoy the struggle, OOC and deadchat rants more than the actual game. I mean, that map has a syndie medibot loose in maint ready to pump you full of morphine if you go near it, roundstart supermatter engine and deadly disposals, it's a mememap

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Re: Map Rotation

Postby Miauw » Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:08 am #132088

ITT: oldman doesnt like other maps :(
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Re: Map Rotation

Postby Oldman Robustin » Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:27 pm #132111

The vast majority of players also don't play high responsibility positions where you can't entertain yourself by becoming a maint. hoarder.

The vast majority of players also play less than me, so I'm sure some stations still have that "new car smell" for most players.

Once the novelty wears off and you realize you're on a poorly optimized Box with less essential workplace features but more maint. memes, the fun is gone.

Regardless of what you think about the maps, the round quality is diminished on other maps. Watching malf win for the 60th time because nobody knows where the SMES room is... or where the AI core even is... or watching Cult/Rev/Gangs continue their massive winstreak because the two people stupid enough to play sec on meme rounds can't maintain order over the approx. 100,000 square miles of maint... gets old really fast.

So while people still come to terms with the drawbacks and faults of map rotations, lets make a common sense decision and take Birdboat off rotation.

Let's also look into why the "default" map feels like its getting just as much playtime as the most widely despised maps. This would be easier to deal with if Box wasn't like 20% of games now.
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Re: Map Rotation

Postby Saegrimr » Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:29 pm #132113

Miauw wrote:ITT: oldman doesnt like other maps :(
tedward1337 wrote:Sae is like the racist grandad who everyone laughs at for being racist, but deep down we all know he's right.

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Re: Map Rotation

Postby Zilenan91 » Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:44 pm #132118

Miauw wrote:ITT: oldman doesn't like anything :(
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Re: Map Rotation

Postby firecage » Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:52 pm #132122

Oldman Robustin wrote:The vast majority of players also don't play high responsibility positions where you can't entertain yourself by becoming a maint. hoarder.

The vast majority of players also play less than me, so I'm sure some stations still have that "new car smell" for most players.

Once the novelty wears off and you realize you're on a poorly optimized Box with less essential workplace features but more maint. memes, the fun is gone.

Regardless of what you think about the maps, the round quality is diminished on other maps. Watching malf win for the 60th time because nobody knows where the SMES room is... or where the AI core even is... or watching Cult/Rev/Gangs continue their massive winstreak because the two people stupid enough to play sec on meme rounds can't maintain order over the approx. 100,000 square miles of maint... gets old really fast.

So while people still come to terms with the drawbacks and faults of map rotations, lets make a common sense decision and take Birdboat off rotation.

Let's also look into why the "default" map feels like its getting just as much playtime as the most widely despised maps. This would be easier to deal with if Box wasn't like 20% of games now.


Oldman, stop acting like you speak for the majority of players. Most people enjoy map rotation. Most people enjoy the various maps. You are one of the VERY vocal minority. Honestly most people disagree with you. And most people are beginning to get very annoyed with the minority of players joining a round, and then suiciding in important areas because it's a map they don't like. Perhaps they just shouldn't join that round then, or suck it up instead of wasting everyones time.
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Re: Map Rotation

Postby Oldman Robustin » Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:45 pm #132162

Firecage plz into reading comprehension.

I was stating precisely that I was NOT a part of the majority, let alone trying to speak for them. Also 5 seconds later you proceed to speak on behalf of "most players" instead.

My point was along the lines of "Security life is hell on other maps and "lol sec players are a minority fug em" is not a valid reason to dismiss the concerns.".
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