To Stun Or Not To Stun: The Final Solution Edition

[Steelpoint]

For a long time now we've had two different forces in balancing when it comes to our award winning combat system, at least when stuns are concerned.

The first side is that stuns should be extremely rare, if not removed entirely, and that weapons should simply be highly lethal, irrespective of armour worn or whatever other defence sans for high levels antags or the Death Squad.

The other side contests that stuns should remains in the game as is, or at least revert when stun weapons were more prevalent. With varying degree's of idea's of how lethal non-stun weapons should be, usually with them being on the higher end.

The problem we have now is that we have no set in stone policy/direction to go. We have some people pushing changes that go one way, and some going the other, with no one being fully satisfied.

Satisfaction will never be universal, but I think we need to have a discussion on how we want our combat system to go. Since its a discussion we keep occasionally going to on forum threads.

The poll is just to gauge the general feel of the situation, not as a definitive decision on what to do.

[TechnoAlchemist]

Stamina damage system except actually implemented.

[Alex Crimson]

Ranged stuns should be removed in all forms except stamina damage, which take 3+ shots to bring someone down. Lethal weapons should not be more lethal, what the fuck?

[Saegrimr]

Remove damage.

[newfren]

Remove damage.

[Shaps-cloud]

SS13 is not a first person shooter, people who say that stuns have a low skillcap and prevent more robust combat are kidding themselves when they think that having to click on a man multiple times to stop them instead of once will suddenly turn SS13 into the most exciting and skill based game since counter strike.

[Incomptinence]

If I can't have suicidal death combat might as well have stun combat, beats a power vacuum where blasted coders hunt tall poppies.

[DrPillzRedux]

I don't understand the push to move from straight stun to stamina. After a single disabler hit its seriously the same thing since you can't outrun anyone. It only helps if you're armed with a gun for the slim chance of fighting back. The person who got the first shot off will usually still will.

[J_Madison]

I'd thought I've already posted the solution.

Here's my solution to the 99 damage < stun paradox.
Stuns that should be "enough to cuff":
Stun baton
Police baton
A very well timed point blank taser shot
Space lube
Chemical based stuns
Stamina damage knockout

This way, stuns in combat are mostly just a short term disable, not a deciding factor because no stuns except melee stuns would last enough to be lethal.

Combat is no longer centred around stuns. Stuns give you an advantage, but it isn't an instawin.

[CPTANT]

I don't understand the push to move from straight stun to stamina. After a single disabler hit its seriously the same thing since you can't outrun anyone. It only helps if you're armed with a gun for the slim chance of fighting back. The person who got the first shot off will usually still will.

Disablers are completely different. They allow you to shoot back and things like fighting behind corners doesn't come down to 1 hit anymore.

[Zilenan91]

A lot our stun problems as people see it can be solved by getting ourselves a more advanced medical system, like a toned down baymed/lifeweb med(even though that's baymed x 11), so that having a lot of lethal weapons can be just as viable to stun weaponry due to long term damage to organs, bones, etc.

[CPTANT]

how about we just make lasers not hit like wet farts first.

[Zilenan91]

A lot our stun problems as people see it can be solved by getting ourselves a more advanced medical system, like a toned down baymed/lifeweb med(even though that's baymed x 11), so that having a lot of lethal weapons can be just as viable to stun weaponry due to long term damage to organs, bones, etc.

fuck off with the baymed meme

I'm serious. If we want to buff lethal weapons to make stun combat less prevalent, then a good way to buff them without buffing their damage would be to make them have long lasting consequences on what they hit. Murderboner #12898 revolvering people in maint? Well he took a spear to his gut, and since all he has is a medkit with medical gauze, he patched it up best as he could, got infected, and died.

[Super Aggro Crag]

A lot our stun problems as people see it can be solved by getting ourselves a more advanced medical system, like a toned down baymed/lifeweb med(even though that's baymed x 11), so that having a lot of lethal weapons can be just as viable to stun weaponry due to long term damage to organs, bones, etc.

fuck off with the baymed meme

I'm serious. If we want to buff lethal weapons to make stun combat less prevalent, then a good way to buff them without buffing their damage would be to make them have long lasting consequences on what they hit. Murderboner #12898 revolvering people in maint? Well he took a spear to his gut, and since all he has is a medkit with medical gauze, he patched it up best as he could, got infected, and died.

im going to start reporting every post you make for shilling other games, zilenan. if you love those games so much why do you keep shitting up our forum?

[Zilenan91]

I don't think you quite understand what I'm talking about Crag.

[DrPillzRedux]

That's part of the answer though. Combat has barely any repercussions as everything can be cured quickly.

[Super Aggro Crag]

brb developing a suit that you have to plug into your usb port to play ss13 every time you get hit in game it injects you with angry bullet ants high on amphetamines.

[onleavedontatme]

Why do people keep saying lasers are weak I truely do not understand.

[Super Aggro Crag]

i don't have the math on me but people say having to shoot a guy 10 times to put him into crit is worse than stunning him once and bashing him to death

personally i prefer lasers over ballistics because the ballistics powercreep grosses me out + i find nanotrasen using energy weapons mostly and the syndies using ballistics mostly more thematic

[Cheimon]

Lasers do 20 burn damage. You need 5 shots, therefore, to crit an unarmoured person. Most armour has something to do with increasing the number of shots you need.

An energy gun normally holds 10 shots, enough to kill one person. A laser gun is, I think, 12.

The shots are large, and therefore easier to dodge, but make up for it by being able to move through windows.

Most ballistic weapons do 25 or higher. Armour against them is generally weaker unless specifically designed for it. They often have higher ammunition counts. A few ballistic weapons, like shotgun slugs and 357 revolvers, do 60. Bullets are also harder to dodge and can seem faster to fire (not sure if that's real or not). Also, you can normally reload them on the go. Oh, and if you get more than one shot in the same place, the damage will make people bleed. All of those make people think the lasers are a bit weak.

But personally? I think they're fine. Most of their weaknesses fuse beautifully with security's equipment (tasers, having access to rechargers, and so on). You can always carry more than one. Also, it works well to have a weapon as security that, if stolen, can't be used to kill half the station.

[invisty]

Don't change stun combat to be more skill-based. The last thing we need is to make this a game that attracts more play-to-win shootem-up plebeians.

Removing cryo and medbots would be a start. The progressive removal of player interaction for regular activities has lead to this situation where the defining aspect of survival is stunning. Damage counts for little if you can simply slap on an instant-heal patch or jump into cryo.

Has anyone trialled replacing laser guns with laser cannons as an asymmetric way of balancing the laser rifle? Forcing the standard combat weapon to be belt/back slot only would address the "looting the armoury" problem.

[confused rock]

how about we just make lasers not hit like wet farts first.

Laser guns need more ammo if anything

[Shaps-cloud]

Why would you keep shooting someone once they're in crit though

[MMMiracles]

You know they're a ling, have some sort of regen chem/virus, ect.

[Shaps-cloud]

You know they're a ling, have some sort of regen chem/virus, ect.

Then you go in close and start smashing their head in, no need to keep wasting lasers

[lumipharon]

Stam damage is awful since it means if you have no ranged weapons, you are immediately and instantly just fucked.

All stam weapons canbe spammed to hell and back, and it only takes 1 or 2 hits to make you move at a snail's pace.
And even if you get up from a stam stun, you're still stuck at snail pace for like 4 minutes so you have zero hope of escaping.

With stuns, all stun weapons are far more limited in terms of shots, and spammability.
So while it only takes 1 shot to stun, you're limited by range and ammo count, and after the stun wears off you're at 100% and ready to fight/run.

We're playing a terrible 2d sprite game, if you want some mlg combat, play a shooter or something. Stuns are a necessity for this game's balance.

[CPTANT]

The spamminess of disablers and the 1 hit GG of tasers is exactly why I proposed a middle way of a 2 shot taser.

[lumipharon]

That's just a disabler with more then 50 stam damage, or in reality, an inferior version of a shotgun/revolver/other 2 hit crit weapon.

[CPTANT]

That's just a disabler with more then 50 stam damage, or in reality, an inferior version of a shotgun/revolver/other 2 hit crit weapon.

and what makes is that disablers are not "just an inferior version" of a 4 shot crit weapon?

[TheNightingale]

As Security, I'd rather have a disabler than a .357 revolver. Shooting people with 60-brute rounds is bad for PR.

[John_Oxford]

If only a set amount of stun weapons stun long enough to cuff/cable cuff.
It's much more likely there is going to be several ban appeal threads stating "He did this, i couldn't stun him long enough, so i killed him"

Would you rather be stunned, cuffed, and then have the possibility of release?
Rather than stunned for a short time, damaged to the point where you are at a severe disadvantage, and die?

One Hit Stuns are appart of the long lasting SS13 Culture, removing it is like removing corgis or energy swords.

[Incomptinence]

They are, when the enemy does have those 2 hit crit weapons the disabler is suicidal to use and the taser is out ranged. Also disablers have been capable of a 3 hit stun for some time now but that rarely happens going by I actually had to look up the code and check they did 36 stamina damage. Even with pre HG paprika love in tasers lasers still saw use since with every nonlethal take down sec has you also have to account for cuffing the guy then dragging him away to stash somewhere which melts given a group combat situation, space vs evaless or hulks whatever.

Which some admins don't allow and literally the brig can explode and they expect you to just drag one murderer around forever because MUH SOS RULES!

[ShadowDimentio]

Stuns were good. If a weapon stunned, that was probably all it did, so you had to have something else to follow up with. If a weapon didn't stun, it either had good damage, was dirt common, or had an alternate use like extinguishers.

All of this was changed because of one assblasted coder who got dunked by stuns and replaced them with shitty disablers.

We need to revert all the awful changes to stuns and go back to the formula that wasn't nerfing everything until everything was equally shit.

[callanrockslol]

Return stun, return fast, return the gitgud.

[MMMiracles]

anyone who wants the old sanic-speed 24/7 back are literally awful tbh.

[Remie Richards]

anyone who wants the old sanic-speed 24/7 back are literally awful tbh.

I dont think anyone legitimately does, I think it's just rose tinted glasses.

[Steelpoint]

To be fair to old speed, having more prevalent stun weapons was far more justified back then due to how hard it was to land a hit with a weapon on anyone. People moving at the fastest speed possible made it easier to dodge or simply outrun stun weapons.

After move speed was nerfed it became more clear that this significantly buffed stun weapons as now it was harder to avoid being stunned. Some will argue it puts more emphasise on tactical placement of yourself before a engagement, other's will disagree.

--------

In my opinion I don't think a full revert back to the older days of stun weapons is viable if we do not also return to the older movement speed, they were both heavily intertwined and one without the other would not hold up by itself.

Though it depends on what kind of stun weapons we would reintroduce. When all is said and done the only change to stun ranged weapons that remains as is today is the Energy Gun change, all the other changes to stun weapons are either inconsequential (Disabler with the Taser) or were removed at one point (Stun on Adv Egun or other projectile changes sans range limit).

The fact is we can go either way, but we have no consensus nor a vision of which way to go.

[callanrockslol]

anyone who wants the old sanic-speed 24/7 back are literally awful tbh.

I dont think anyone legitimately does, I think it's just rose tinted glasses.

> I don't get stimulant virus every round and go 2fast
I don't its only when I feel the need for speed and things need to die

[Not-Dorsidarf]

anyone who wants the old sanic-speed 24/7 back are literally awful tbh.

I dont think anyone legitimately does, I think it's just rose tinted glasses.

> I don't get stimulant virus every round and go 2fast
I don't its only when I feel the need for speed and things need to die

Remie are you high? The only reason people aren't still up in arms at slowdown being strongarmed in at a 20% approval rate is that we continue to code new, interesting things for them to be up in arms about.

[Wyzack]

Nah old speed a shit

[Jacquerel]

just make lasers into hitscan weapons with a beam effect so you can't dodge

(don't)

[DemonFiren]

Also, keep ballistics non-hitscan :^)

[onleavedontatme]

Well we certainly cant go back to stun combat without a higher movespeed.

Taser eguns without being fast enough to dodge them would be ridiculous.

And I still do miss oldspeed, especially on these new giant maps.

[Incomptinence]

Bring back tasers to normal and egun tasers. Actually ARM your antags to deal with this, like not every fucking traitor buff thread needs to advocate traitor weapons costing more its sorta ridiculous. Actual antags have stun resist or their own ranged weapons (ling is a dumpster fuck em) revs actually be the canon fodder they should be getting picked away at by good strong sec weapons instead of I spear you weak haha.

[lumipharon]

Spears are so fucking robust when thrown.
And with the way throw mechanics work, it's way harder to dodge thrown shit then projectiles.
AND embedding creates nasty DOT, with more damage if you remove it yourself, and can't be removed by anyone else without surgery (which is pretty dumb).

[CPTANT]

I don't get the sentiment why stun weapons such as tasers and disablers need to be the crème de crème of combat by the magnitude they are now. They outclass every damage doing weapon BY FAR. Why does lethal combat have to be a compete non-option?

[Zilenan91]

Yeah, spears and chainsaws were a great step to possibly removing stun combat. Spears because imbedding does 70 brute with a shitload of bleeding, and chainsaws do 21 brute and can be "held" in one hand if given augmentation.

[Incomptinence]

If we had stun combat removed in lieu of officer just getting to kill greycried babies like yourselves sure that would work.

That isn't happening though because y'all babies so you just want to have no IC consequences win win situations where a stiff breeze defeats emasculated security while admins hold them down for you.

[1g88a]

a stiff breeze defeats emasculated security while admins hold them down for you.

Mmmmm


Personally I'm of the opinion that the truth is in the middle, which I realize isn't a very helpful.

[Remie Richards]

Spears are so fucking robust when thrown.
And with the way throw mechanics work, it's way harder to dodge thrown shit then projectiles.
AND embedding creates nasty DOT, with more damage if you remove it yourself, and can't be removed by anyone else without surgery (which is pretty dumb).

If I added other people pulling out your embedded objects, it'd do the exact same damage as if you did it yourself.
The reason I didn't do that initially is so people can't rip out your embedded objects to FORCE that extra damage on you.
If someone else wants to remove your embedded objects, like a doctor, they can just do the surgery.