Cult Conversion Requiring 3

[Timrod]

I think that making cult conversion require three people is really not a good change to the way cult flows. I've played several rounds since the change, both as cult and non-cult, and I think that the new conversion requirements tend to change cult from a goal-oriented group antag based on not removing people from the round to free for all murderboning and construct rampages.

I think the conversion change is really backwards because right now, it's far easier to turn someone into a construct than it is to convert them. Most of the time, constructs are not useful to the cult and don't advance their objectives.

If anything, I think making constructs should take three people, and converting should only take one. That way, I think you would see a lot more cult as group antag and a lot fewer pure murderbone construct rampages.

[Psyentific]

The way to win in New Cult is to travel in groups of three. I do think that conversion ought to be bumped down to two, but it's fine right now.

[Kelenius]

The new way to win for the cult is to gather in once place and overwhelm security before they react without using any runes besides convert and sacrifice.

The intention was to make it less like rev. It became more like rev. New cultists usually don't get tomes and nobody ever bothers to tell others words they get from saccing.

[Incomptinence]

Words are auto shared through notes check your notes.

[Kelenius]

Eh. Still, I rarely see any runes used besides those two. Again, most don't have tomes.

[Incomptinence]

If they are being that sloppy they might as well make constructs instead of converts. Sure it takes a bit of pilfered plas steel to start now but constructs lead to more constructs and are more effective than a random extinguisher maniac.

[Malkevin]

Its meant to be intentionally hard to convert people, a convert gives the cult another completely covert member that can do everything.
If you want the above then you're going to have to work as a team, if you cant work as a team then fucking learn.

That said I was going to add a way for artificers to build altars that would allow a single cultist to perform an extended ritual that would converted people, but I've been busy as of late so haven't been able to work on phase 2... and now theres a coder freeze so theres no point starting because of probable conflicts...

[Nalar]

If you want the above then you're going to have to work as a team, if you cant work as a team then fucking learn.

This is a fairly dangerous mindset to fall into, simply because you're penalizing someone for, what could within reason be, the lack of cooperation on someone elses behalf. You can't really force someone to do anything, and often circumstances will make it so that getting 3 people in the same area on one team is impossible, let alone next to eachother in a circle around a rune.

But, the alternative ritualistic method does sound appealing.

[Bluespace]

Cult is pretty much murder people, turn a few of them into constructs now.
In the cult rounds i've been in, i've been murdered by people with blades more than i've been converted or turned into a construct.

[Malkevin]

I'm removing round start blades.

Tomes are still pretty robust but not as robust as swords

[lumipharon]

I pretty much don't bother converting people anymore. It's just not worth the grief of trying to get 2 autists to stand next to your rune. Seriously, I've had SIX cultists (nlcuding myself in medbay, and we stunned 3 people. I literally could not get people to stand by the convert rune, it was so bad I ended up dying people the other cultists were being so pants on retarded.

It's much easier to just stun paper, cablecuff, remove headset, drag into maint lair and sac, turn into construct and repeat.

[Bluespace]

Shame most constructs either attack cultists in anger or just walk into the hallways and purposefully die.

[Malkevin]

Order them to stand by you, they disobey adminhelp

[AseaHeru]

Shame most constructs either attack cultists in anger or just walk into the hallways and purposefully die.

That sounds like meta...

Unless they remember their past life...

[Kelenius]

Shame most constructs either attack cultists in anger or just walk into the hallways and purposefully die.

That sounds like meta...

Unless they remember their past life...

That sounds like ahelp-worthy.

[Steelpoint]

Lore wise constructs and the like are literally the souls of the victim being trapped inside a construct. In shade form it literally says "Shade of Alan Bentway".

If the constructs do decide to piss off, then ahelp it. Last time I checked the constructs HAD to do what a cultist said, or something similar to that.

A better solution in my opinion would be having a ghosted player take control of the construct/shade/whatever, some people just don't want to assist their murderer after being sacrificed nor may not want to keep playing, and a ghosted player may be more willing to play than the victim, as well as eliminating people lining up for conversion/shading since they would not be in control.

[Cheimon]

Good to see blades are being removed, they're a really obvious sign of a cultist that's appeared too often in my experience. Generally, only fools pick them and those fools frequently go on to wreck any sensible cultists' chances.

[Pybro]

Part of the problem is that you often end up with a few people in good positions (Scientist, virologist, RD, CMO etc), and a few people in bad positions (Clown, mime, geneticist, lawyer). The people in the good positions don't want to leave their good positions, so you have to call in two of the people in bad positions. So a scientist brings in the clown, mime, and an assistant to cult shit up.

The scientist runs out, uses the stun paper on his coworker, and brings him back to the base. The clown has disposaled himself to get out and go slip people, the mime committed suicide, and the assistant is trying to build...something. Your coworker wakes up and outs you.

[omnitricks]

Cult is now murder cult since people are in the mindset that constructs are better than humans and they add to escape count which is needed.

Either reduce the amount of autists to make a conversion or make it so that constructs do not count to the escape objective.

[Incomptinence]

He was planning more conversion methods but ~*code freeze*~ please read.

Just unfortunate timing is all.

Constructs are cool and useful, poorly equipped lazy converts while tapping into some of the grey rush of rev make for terrible gameplay. I have watched JLP be out shited by the sheer proliferation of undetectable revycults back under the convert cult, we would catch them and have insufficient evidence to hold them with Jane-fucking-Luc Price as captain sure then xenos killed both parties but cult had infiltrated EVERYTHING before that. There is no level of bad behaviour on sec's part that counters this it was all pure dumb luck to catch the rev lite cult in the act of conversion. This is much better it just needs refinement.

[Oldman Robustin]

The new way to win for the cult is to gather in once place and overwhelm security before they react without using any runes besides convert and sacrifice.

The intention was to make it less like rev. It became more like rev. New cultists usually don't get tomes and nobody ever bothers to tell others words they get from saccing.

It is still very different from rev. Oldcult would spread much like rev, from a few select individuals who used stun talismans instead of flashes.

NOTE: THIS IS NOT NECESSARY A BAD THING. AFTER CONVERSION THE FLOW OF CULT v. REV WAS STILL VERY DIFFERENT AND EACH PROVIDED ITS OWN UNIQUE FLAVOR.

Now the key is to gather up in 1-2 cabals and get a few words ASAP so you can work toward construct and stun paper factories in maint.

Newcult and Oldcult each have their own positives and negatives. Oldcult was way too dependent on starter cultists, there was like a 50% chance there'd only be one decent cultist (if any) and it was up to him to basically convert the entire station (and that would usually fail). Oldcult would also slightly less interesting since conversions would leave 0 evidence, it was basically a clock on security to find the tome users and stumble upon a conversion before half the station was converted, full tomes get handed out, and you have 25 v. 5 as security gets overwhelmed. With new maint. and no more sec maint. access oldcult probably would've gotten out of hand.

New cult leaves MUCH more obvious evidence, more starter cult means you are more likely to have a well rounded team and its possible for security to mount an effective counter-attack. I don't like how "lethal" the cult is forced to be though and since you only get 3 starter paper you basically get 1 pet artificer and are forced to get new sacrifices with improvised tools until you find the words for stun paper again... which is stupidly risky to do.

The problem is this: Conversions are better early-game as they get you helpers who aren't going to jump the gun early and reveal the cult when spotted, Constructs are better late game when you're going loud and need raw power at your backs. However conversions are much more difficult early and by the time they are easier to pull off... you don't need them anymore.

Solution: Make it 1 man conversions again. The limiting effect is that stun paper is much weaker now and you only get 1-2 stuns after summoning your tome as opposed to 4 stuns in oldcult. The balance would be that conversions now leave a scorch mark in the shape of a rune that, while it cannot be scanned, would be an obvious indicator of cult presence and that a certain department or area has been converted to cult. Or make it 2-man conversions that simply leave no evidence... keeping 3 cultists together is nothing short of a miracle and makes conversions extremely unattractive since the stun will wear off before one of you can draw the conversion rune and actually get 3 of you to stand in the right place.

[Oldman Robustin]

He was planning more conversion methods but ~*code freeze*~ please read.

Just unfortunate timing is all.

Constructs are cool and useful, poorly equipped lazy converts while tapping into some of the grey rush of rev make for terrible gameplay. I have watched JLP be out shited by the sheer proliferation of undetectable revycults back under the convert cult, we would catch them and have insufficient evidence to hold them with Jane-fucking-Luc Price as captain sure then xenos killed both parties but cult had infiltrated EVERYTHING before that. There is no level of bad behaviour on sec's part that counters this it was all pure dumb luck to catch the rev lite cult in the act of conversion. This is much better it just needs refinement.

This problem was mostly countered with the holy water changes. It's much easier to battle stealth cult when you can just force every suspicious criminal to chug holy water and take a 2 minute break in interrogation.

[Psyentific]

What, so deconverting cult (permanently?) is even easier than derevving someone? And can be done quickly with common materials? Plsnerf

[Incomptinence]

On the flip side there is no way to de-convert constructs. Pick your horses.

[Malkevin]

You can derev someone by smashing them in the head

[Steelpoint]

Yep, its far easier to deconvert a Rev than a Cultist. A few smacks to the head with your Stun Baton will sort them out.

[Fatal]

The holy water thing is too heavily dependent on one person, the balance of power between security and cult should not fall upon one player, I like the idea of deconverting cult, but given you can only deconvert 2 people using the crate (unless I got the numbers wrong, I haven't checked the code on just exactly how much water you need to force people)

Whereas provided the chaplain is alive, you can get a water tank from the emergency storage, get him to bless it, and force feed everyone who even looks slightly suspicious


In regards to the conversion, wasn't there talk of some runes needing less people if you had the robes on? I think that idea would work well, with one condition, once you summon the robes, they CAN'T be removed, which means you either pick stealth, and have more people required to convert, or you show your true colours and gain maximum power

Thatd be nice for some other runes too, some of the more powerful ones

[AseaHeru]

Cargo can order holy water.

[Neerti]

I like the idea of deconverting cult, but given you can only deconvert 2 people using the crate

[paprika]

THere's more constructs than cultists most of the time now anyway. With more deconverting it'll just be rev.